Clubhouse Grille (*** NO LIV DISCUSSIONS ***) (*** NO POLITICS/RELIGION ***)

[Hankshank]

Thats the opposite of me. I like run out of balls and play with what I find in the rough. Good way to test new balls, that is...

[Hankshank]

Just wanted to ask you guys who know something about US history. Reading about US presidents you will read, especially presidents born in the north in 18-19th century, that they were like born in log cabins. And still, then they go to universities and become lawyers. If you were born in a log cabin 1900(eg my grandfathers) in scandinavia you had 6 ys “folk school” and then you started plowing fields or work as a blacksmith. Are this log cabin backgrounds of presidents just bs?

[Fellaheen51]

There is historical fact to U.S. presidents being born in a log cabin. There has been 7 presidents so born. The first being Andrew Jackson (7th). The most famous being Abraham Lincoln (16th), born in a cabin in Kentucky. The last was James Garfield (20th). The range of time by birthdates would be from 1767 (Jackson) - 1831 (Garfield). And doesn't necessarily mean they were born in the North. Jackson was born in South Carolina, west of the Appalachian mountains. Keeping in mind that as one progressed westward, away from the Atlantic seaboard, these areas were considered to be the frontier. Into areas where log cabins would be the typical abode.

Prior to Jackson, U.S Presidents came from positions of wealth and privilege. Jackson broke that mold. Historians consider Jackson to the the first populist president of the common man. And being born in a log cabin certainly helped with that narrative. The phrase "Log Cabin President" is a term used for someone that came from humble beginnings, that would later become president. At one time, useful political imagery for attracting votes. Part of the ethos of America that regardless of one's beginnings, anyone can become President.

And yes, had to do some research this morning to assist with the response.

[Qqq123xx]

I like balls that don't sink really fast. The Titleist NXT sank like a biatch. So no longer using that ball.

[scomac2002]

My first spin with a new ball in several years net me a meh. I definitely noticed that they were harder as in higher compression. I have played low compression balls for so long that standard compression is noticeably different and not in a positive way. Carry was definitely shorter IMO. AS for spin, I have no comment. I would need more time to decide, but that's a moot point as the lack of distance is going to be a non-starter for me.

The vintage wedge, now that has promise. Definitely more user friendly than what I've been working with to date. I'm going to mark that down to turf interaction as in narrower sole and less bounce. Maybe it's just a case of familiarity and not having had bad experiences colouring my judgment.

The putter experiment was not a good move. When you've been using a face balanced putter for a couple of seasons now, switching to a putter with a ton of toe hang is not likely to work out. It didn't. Everything went left as expected I suppose. Back to what I was using before.

The chipper has been in the bag now on and off for a few weeks now. It's an acquired taste, but when struck effectively the darn thing works. Had a nice run up from about 20 paces off the green for a made par putt and then another from just off the green that left me a tap in also for par.

Now for the bad news: I've got tendinitis creeping back into my elbow again! Didn't take long when playing multiple times a week and not having the best ball striking. Guess I'm going to have to look into going back to graphite shafts in my irons. It's the only permanent solution I'm afraid. Iced my elbow when I came home and will do it again when I'm done here. In the mean time an Aleve to the rescue.

[billh17]

@Scomac: I switched to graphite in my irons several years ago,and like you it stopped the pain. I wasn't sure that was the reason, but then I changed over to the One Length irons,and they had metal shafts. After less than two weeks,the pain was back. Finally got another set with the graphite and it went away. I am not good enough to notice a performance difference between the two,and my distances are the same so it is a huge plus for me. Hope you have the same results, tho i know it might mess with the vintage sets. The elbow pain is a be atch!

[scomac2002]

I want to take a minute and talk about swing theory. Specifically about swing mechanics as it pertains to chipping and pitching.

It seems to me that standard theory is to teach a simple chipping method that takes the wrist out of the motion. It's often described as putting with a lofted club and that' how i was given very rudimentary instruction on the subject.

I'm coming to the conclusion that most of this standard advice is really terrible and probably accounts for so many people struggling with the short game. They're taught to have no feel. Just take the wrists out of it and remove the variables. Leave it up to the big muscle groups.

Ever try to print or write with a pen in your toes using only large muscle groups? it wouldn't be pretty because you need fine motor control. I know that I'm amazed when I see someone without arms that has become a skilled artist using their feet. Took years of practice to develop fine motor control with large muscle groups.

I wonder if this slavish dependency on teaching "stiff" chipping as a result of trying to tame golfers who flipped the club at the ball and had all sorts of troubles around the green from double hits to scoops? the technique may have had it's merits in years gone by, but with current green conditions and stimp readings it's a recipe for disaster. I get far more stabs and chunks and bladed shots due to stiff wrists than I do when I allow my hands to work around the green. I even putt better with a bit of wrist action as I release the putter cleaner.

All I have to do is spend 5 minutes watching Deschambeau putting to realize that motion isn't natural. He may have convinced himself that it's efficient, but he is the most awkward looking player on tour! He looks even more awkward since he bulked up! No one argues with a winner though...

[scomac2002]

Thanks @billh17. I haven't got a set of irons yet, but I'm going to try and find something that will blend in with what I have on hand. The Adams 4 hybrid has pretty much earned itself a place in my bag. I have a 6 Dhy that I would need to reshaft to use which means I can get by with just a 7-PW/UW combo. I'll look for something used for obvious reasons, probably Ping -- don't hit me @Fellaheen51 -- a few model years old like G 30's or G's to keep the price tag within reach.
The issue with graphite in the past has been weight which caused me to overswing. Now I'm finding that traditionally shafted steel clubs are getting too heavy. My days of playing vintage are likely effectively over. There's just no future to it if I'm going to be fighting with my elbows and wrists. If you want to play the game you make the adjustments necessary to keep on playing or you quit. I'd rather play I think.

[scomac2002]

Well, I went ahead and did it. Talk about an impulse buy. Coming my way are a set of TM Speedblades irons 5-PW in A flex graphite. I have no idea if these will be worth a damn, but they were in very nice condition and they were cheap! Cheap is the operative at this moment because everything I'm seeing in the way of used clubs are very expensive, so I figure if I don't like them I can always sell them and probably not be out much. The shafts are only 55g! I have no idea what I'm getting myself into, but that's the same weight as I'm playing in my driver and woods, so maybe it will work out. DW's irons are 55g and they don't seem so impossible to use other than being left handed.

I remember hitting Speedblades way back when at a fitting. I hated them! The fitter was acting like a d*ck too, so that didn't add anything to the experience. Talk about having everything pointing you away from these, but I read a few posts on WRX that I managed to search out and several fellows said that they got along pretty well with these clubs, so maybe there's a silver lining. At the end of the day they are a set that could work potentially, they're in really nice condition and they're cheap. Sounds a lot better than saying: But, I liked the colourway...

I suppose I should add that I had an outstanding credit at Golfavenue that I used to cover about half the cost so that was a biggie in my choice of irons.

[Conrad1953]

LOL, You a man on a mission Sco! And I totally get it. You are having way too much fun.

[scomac2002]

There are other sayings like: a fool and his money are soon parted...

Let's be honest: I can't really play any worse than I am right now so a change in kit isn't going to inflate my score any more. If they save my elbows and wrists, then it's money well spent no matter how I strike them. Eventually I'll get used to them I would expect. Who knows, I might actually like hitting long irons again. (They may call it a 5 iron, but with 23.5° of loft it's stronger than a traditional 4!)

[tolmij]

Not quite with WRX at the moment, too much going on at home, we are having a total reorganisation of all cupboards, everything emptied out, new storage shelves for the garage coming mid week. We are also modernising the kitchen, colours are terrible so out it goes, order from DW. This is all instead of Christmas presents, so plenty of drinking but not opening packages.

Still planning a game this week, so hopefully I will be able to report a good score( in your dreams) Not going to use a driver off the tee, will only use irons and hope to work on my swing, I will not be going flat out and use it as a full on starting out again session, please no laughing or mickytaking when I report.?

[tolmij]

To explain the problem with reorganising the cupboards. We have on many occasions in the past not been in a position to shop as we needed, at one point we had nothing to spend On food and on another the nearest shop was over 60 miles from where we lived, so the go was buy up big and keep a large stock of essential, this habit had not left DW so it was amusing to see her reaction when I emptied the cupboards. The time when we could not afford food has cut deep into her mind as DW is a person who cares very much how she looks after the family, so both of these with a few other smaller problems along the way have giver her a buy up when you can attitude, not toilet paper though, definitely a purchase as required item. The next week will be interesting.?

[Fellaheen51]

Congratulations Brother Sco on the new old irons. Hope they work out for you as anticipated. Consulted the charts (Maltby MPF), the numbers would indicate they should be forgiving and easy to launch. When one is suffering from infirmities, there's really is no other option other than graphite shafts if you want to continue playing without pain. The choices to be made on implements requires a certain "leap of faith" in the decision making. As we often don't have the opportunity to trial them prior to acquisition. So we perform our due diligence and research as best we can, and go when a deal presents itself. Best we can do. And try and keep the experimentation expense to a minimum.

Suffered a bad bout of tendinitis a few years back. More specifically tennis elbow (lateral epicondylitis) as it was on the outside. For a month it was very painful, significantly impacted my ability to play golf. Although I continued to muddle along painfully with the aid of an elbow brace (minimal benefit at best). Self diagnosing the condition and the recommended treatment of rest, ice, anti-inflammatories did not alleviate the pain. Then read about TheraBand FlexBar (https://www.theraband.com/products/rehab-therapy/hand-arm-therapy/theraband-flexbar-resistance-bar.html) as a treatment. Was skeptical, but bought one anyhow. Started doing the specific resistance exercise 2x a day. And began noticing an improvement in a couple of days. Within two weeks, the condition was gone entirely. Became a believer. Still use it periodically for maintenance and strengthening. Went with the green (15# of force) one. WMMV, but perhaps worth a try. Bought it off Amazon as I could not find one locally.

[Sean2]

At one time I had tennis elbow so bad I couldn't pick up a glass of water and was side-lined for three months. I tried inserts, softer grips and gloves, yet nothing worked. The doctor recommended graphite and since I switched, I have never had a re-occurrence. I tried steel shafts again for a very brief period, and the pain started coming back. For me, graphite was the way to go.

[Fellaheen51]

Interesting golf conversations while at the Sister's house for holiday festivities. My BIL is a golfer, pretty decent ball striker. So we're yaking about our recent games, etc. Knows that I wheel and deal in golf implements periodically. Asks me to keep and eye out for a deal on TM M4/5 irons. (Not ones that are ever on my radar.) Know that he plays 20+ year old Callaway BB. Ask him why those. Apparently the resident golf club expert at his work says those are the bestest. That he's giving up to much distance with his old irons. The BIL has noted that said guru can hit his PW 140 yards, while he can only hit his BB about 110. So tried to explain to him the whole loft creep business. That the guru's PW is probably like 45* (even stronger than that at 43.5*) so of course he's going to hit it further. Try as I might, don't think I got my message across. Don't know why it's such a difficult concept for so many to think in terms of loft rather than the number on the sole. Then proceeded to venture into the realm of shafts, lengths, lies and think I totally lost him. Wants to buy some "new" irons because he can't hit his 3 iron anymore (????, Why don't you try a hybrid?). At 56 now, can't hit his PW as far as the guru. Ask him if he's ever hit the guru's irons (nope), ever go to the LGS and kick the tires trying various clubs (nope). Try a hybrid (Nope, don't like them). What shafts do you think you'd like (don't know, as long as they're stiffs). How you gonna know what to consider if you've never tried something else? Ever thought about a "fitting" at the LGS for a direction ($150?? Nooo way, I'm not paying that.) Setting aside the whole fitting business.

Forward a half hour or so later. Yaking golf with my nephew. He mentions he's struggling at distances of 100 yards and in. He's young (28) and strong. Whacks his PW 125 easy. But has a hard time taking a little off when needed from closer in. You have a GW (nope). What about your SW? He thought the SW was only for use from sand. Never thought about using it from 80 - 100 yards out, uses his LW from that distance and keeps coming up short. So proceed to have yet another loft discussion. That his PW is likely 45* at best. A 11* degree gap to his SW, who knows what his LW is (asked but he didn't know, just says LW on the sole. Didn't even know the brand). He didn't grasp the concept either. That loft matters. That he should slot a club in between. He bought a box set of Callaway's from Costco, because he got a "a really good deal" on them. Came with everything including a putter, but no GW. He has a thing for Callaway, wouldn't consider anything else (NTTAWT). Tells me he hits them "really long", but doesn't know where the ball is headed sometimes.

They're family, we're tight. Try and play a round with them at least once a year, but scheduling is problematic given out respective lives. I'd really like to be of assistance in improving their kits. But I gotta have something to work with, a direction to take, something to offer other than apparently hard to grasp conceptual mumbo about this stuff. In the case of the BIL, help him make a selection for the next 15 years, given how infrequently he changes any of his bag. What's a Fella to do? I know just enough about this stuff to be dangerous. My inclination as I sit here typing this, is to let it all pass by without involvement. Leave it to their own devices to figure it out on their own. Or not. Defer to the "Gurus" out there to provide their advisements. Yeah, that's probably the ticket.

[scomac2002]

It never even occurred to me to check with Maltby for the Playability Factor. Turns out that these are likely to be the most forgiving irons I've played going by that measure. Not sure what that's worth, but certainly not a negative. I like the fact that they don't have big chunky soles, so coming up with an MRF of 775 is a bit of a surprise, but I'll take it!

I've already figured on a regripping and possibly an extension as they currently have jumbo tour wraps on them. Will play them as is the first bit to see about length as my current set are 1/2" over. May just go ahead and order the extensions and enough extra grips to finish the job as I have 3 Sonar + in stock at the moment. Will wait until I have the irons in hand to decide.

I have a long history with tendinitis. At one point it was so bad I had to quit golfing twice. The i25's I had were supposed to be the permanent solution and they were that until I got the vintage kick and began playing steel again pretty much exclusively for a couple of years or more. Ended up selling the i25's and then acquired the Burner Plus following the back injury. Round and round she goes, where she stops nobody knows!

Regarding the theraband; Fella you may have mentioned that before on here. I know that my chiropractor has talked to me about getting one. He had me doing exercises with dumb bells and doing wrist curls over my knee. I was doing them up to a couple of years ago and stopped that as part of my routine, so maybe need to pick that up again in the meantime.

[tolmij]

Tendinitis is one of those ailments I have been lucky to never have, seen many friends suffering and it seemed quite painful.

[tolmij]

Don't get me wrong because I know very little about equipment, but I do love to engage in conversation with the experts, it always amazes me how clever they are or think they are. When I was playing with a regular group last year, we had one person who thought if you did not agree with his equipment lectures you would never be good player, and this was from someone who never broke 100 for 18. I have no idea where he used to obtain his information but it was iron clad and he would not even discuss it, it was like a lecture. Suffice to say I used to switch off and just say yes and no in the appropriate places.

[Fellaheen51]

Lot's of controversy surrounding MPF. Not having a resolute position on the matter one way or another. Although intuitively I think it has some relevancy for parsing through suitable options on the internets. At least to the point of taking note of some of the measurements involved. Especially actual VCOG and C-dim, and to a lesser extent MOI. Kinda stumbling into them when I was trying to understand why the i20's were difficult irons for me to play reliably. And didn't quite know why. One figure stuck out, a VCOG of .871. And as I interrupted it (by a read elsewhere), one should have a steep downswing to be effective with a higher VCOG. Don't know if that's fact of fiction. Many will say balderdash. And not wanting to focus on one measurement as a sole determinant on playability independent of many other variables. But it did seem to coincide with what I was experiencing. And most likely was the "last straw" in finalizing the decision that the i20's and were soon to part. There was no chance after that point.

Compare that with the latest and greatest i210's. With a VCOG of .913 (whoa!!), would strongly surmise they would be a non-starter for me.

Even helped support my dalliance with the ISI's. With the numbers at 1.6 (C-dim), 12.7 (MOI), .838 (VCOG), 805 (MPF) being similar to the newer G series. Kinda reinforced my notion that they just might be reasonably playable in my hands. Setting aside all other variables. Like shafts.

As always with this stuff, YMMV and IDK are in effect as the usual disclaimers.

[scomac2002]

Interesting stuff. I went back to the MPF datas and looked up the details rather than just the chart. Comparing the new purchase to what is currently in the bag they should be more helpful with a lower centre of gravity and more toe sided C dimension. Thin and toey are my misses so that should benefit in theory. You're definitely adding to the confidence factor in this purchase with this information. You may not be BIL's guru, but rest assured that I take notice of your commentary for my own benefit!

[Fellaheen51]

@scomac2002 Ha. We do what we can, when we can, to help a Brother out. Even when the so doing is entirely by accident. One more kernel along the path in search of golf nirvana. Or just a means to hit the dam(n) ball just a wee bit better.

[scomac2002]

They're family, we're tight. Try and play a round with them at least once a year, but scheduling is problematic given out respective lives. I'd really like to be of assistance in improving their kits. But I gotta have something to work with, a direction to take, something to offer other than apparently hard to grasp conceptual mumbo about this stuff. In the case of the BIL, help him make a selection for the next 15 years, given how infrequently he changes any of his bag. What's a Fella to do? I know just enough about this stuff to be dangerous. My inclination as I sit here typing this, is to let it all pass by without involvement. Leave it to their own devices to figure it out on their own. Or not. Defer to the "Gurus" out there to provide their advisements. Yeah, that's probably the ticket.I think that you're on the right track buddy. Sometimes you got to know when to fold 'em when it comes to helping out friends or family. Unrelated , but in a similar vein, I got into a conversation with a good friend a number of years ago about investing. He was aware that I did my own thing and had the credentials versus using an advisor/broker. I tried to point out how much in fees he was paying for his advisor, but like your BIL he couldn't grasp the concept that fees detracted from returns, sometimes substantially over time. He knew that he was doing better with his guru, so it was all good. No need to carry on any further with the conversation, especially when it was falling into the verboten triumvirate.

I suspect that your BIL will get the guru recommended irons with stiff shafts and be happy as a clam provided that he can match him in distance. That's really all that matters. Psychological barriers are hard to overcome. I know that I had a thing about hitting senior shafts until I did. Wasn't planning on necessarily getting senior shafts with this purchase, but considering that I'm hitting them right now down to a 4 hybrid, may as well go all the way! Probably should be switching to <100g steel in R with the wedges as they are a load by comparison from a feel perspective. We'll see how it all sorts out. Next thing you know I'll be buying myself a stash of Lady Pinnacles.

[Conrad1953]

Fella, I remember when you brought up the high VCOG of the i20 irons. It certainly explained to me why I had a propensity to hit

them thin. Like you I did not investigate before I bought so it was my bad on that. I have noticed when looking that PIng has

been going higher and higher with the VCOG. I think it's because of other design changes they have made which create a

higher launch and lower spin............so they raise the VCOG to keep the ball flight from getting too high. That's my best guess.

 

Like you said, this works OK for golfers with a steeper angle of attack and lots of shaft lean at impact. If you're more of a sweeper

with a shallow angle of attack you're gonna be prone to thin mishits; like I was with the i20s.

[Fellaheen51]

Exactly. My miss with the i20's were thins as well. In order to affect a decent ball strike, had to manipulate the head into a certain position via an accentuated shaft lean. Then swing with a steeper A of A than I was comfortable with. Do both, I could launch the ball with some measure of effectiveness. But not my setup or swing preference with either. Always called it "playing the Ping bounce". Maybe that was part of it. But now of the belief that what I was realizing had more to do with the VCOG than anything else. May be missing something here, but having an iron VCOG mass below the equator of a golf ball (.840) does seem to have some logic to it. Had always been puzzled why I seemed to be able to launch, absent the "adjustments", with the '99 Hogan Apex MB's easier than the i20's. In theory, a decidedly more difficult head to utilize. The VCOG is .783, mass low to get the ball up and away. The misses are typically not a thin.

One data point does tell the entire playability story. And certainly don't want to imply that it does. But for recreational duffers such as myself, especially as an older one with diminishing swing speeds, staying below the .840 line seems to have a ball striking benefit. And not have to fight the club to do it. When one futzes around with trying different irons just because, most of the time one doesn't have the opportunity for testing. So the numbers become a reference to parse through the candidates as to what may be suitable vs. not. All else being equal.

Didn't even think about mentioning VCOG to the BIL during our club chat yesterday. Could have shown him the "charts". He knows nothing of WRX'ian things. Although it may have been a bit OTT.

 

[scomac2002]

Compared the numbers as posted on MPF for my past two playing sets versus the just purchased set and the trend is definitely towards lower VCOG and larger C dimensions with each successive set. When you compare them to the Apex Plus that I played for a season, the difference is stark!

If I can glean anything from this it's that I've spent far too much time playing with what are essentially tough to hit clubs with really only the current Burner + and soon to be Speedblades of the significantly more forgiving variety. That's not to say that there are any promises of improved play just by virtue of club choice. Another adjustment period is on the horizon as testers have universally described the Speedblades as "light, but with a soft feel". I'll have to focus on maintaining an even tempo as I'm sure that they're going to feel decidedly different in hand and during the swing.

[Conrad1953]

Congrats to Beast DeChambeau on the win. I'm sure he's going to win a lot more now that most par 4s have become "missed green"

par 3s for him........as in a drive, chip and putt for birdie.

[Hankshank]

Any explanation on how they managed to get so succesful? My guess is that living in the US was more of a uncertain and free, and in a new land the way of living, possibilities were bigger. In Scandinavia and I guess the rest of Europe the paths of life was more staked out for you. I’m pretty sure all Scandinavian lawyers 1850 were born as sons of academics. mostly because - that was the way it was. Dont think that even the thought of becoming a lawyer even existed in any farmers sons imagination. I still can see that, seems like the possibilities, the willingness to get a run in life different from your upbringing is greater in the US than here in Scandinavia, when I meet and talk with people from the US.

just trying to make sense of the life of, for instance Abraham Lincoln.

[Hankshank]

Been thinking much the same about chipping stiffness earlier years, and I have a take in that, dont know if if also applies to how deChambeau hits his shots -

There is a difference between a stiff and a “non-cocking” wrist. You can be relaxed, and “active” with the wrist at impact without the wrist cocking. That is a chip swing idea I came up with about 10ys ago and it works. At the turn in my back swing my target is that the left wrist shall “float” througt impact, without any acceleation or retardation. Active but still. That helps my mind setting the proper swing speed an my duffs and tops are much less frequent now.

[scomac2002]

Beast most definitely is the word. My gawd; 350.6 off the tee average!

I read the WITB article here on WRX and he's using a 5.5° driver custom built as well as custom built shafts called rebar!

When I look at him I just keep thinking of the changes that Barry Bonds body went through...