Clubhouse Grille (*** NO LIV DISCUSSIONS ***) (*** NO POLITICS/RELIGION ***)

[Fellaheen51]

In an attempt to anser your question, have to place it in historical context. With at best rudimentary understanding of European history, there existed an established class structure. Aristocratic and Commoner. One's lot in life was by and large established at birth, with limited upward mobility. One could argue the Mercantile class offered mobility, but only up to a point. The United States was formed with a guiding principal of equal opportunity for all citizens. Regardless of social position or birth right privilege. Through perseverance, skill, education, good fortune, one could achieve whatever they sought in life. The New World represented limitless opportunity and established certain freedoms in the pursuit. Anything was possible in the "Land of Opportunity" without class restrictions. The concept of Inalienable Rights and equal freedoms to all was a key component of the U.S. Constitution. Property Rights as defined and granted was another key component. Enabling all citizens the opportunity to pursue wealth creation (property) and have protections of same afforded by the Constitution. The possibility to rise above one's starting point and social position in life. Within the historical context of the late 18th Century.

Obviously, much more complex than a brief response to your question. Countless books have been written on the "Grand Experiment". The freedoms granted allowed citizens of any position to pursue whatever they wanted in life regardless of the social strata they came from.

In this context, there arises certain individuals that are transcendent of their place. Lincoln was one. Of humble beginnings, he arose through education, intelligence and perhaps divine providence to become a man of his time. Quite literally saving the country by preserving the Union (of states) during the Civil War. The personification of "all opportunities are possible" concept. An interesting side note to Lincoln. He kept a portrait of Andrew Jackson over his desk the entire time he was in office. Jackson was the first, the prototype of a leader of and for the common man. To understand Lincoln, being familiar with the life and times of Jackson is relevant. Andrew Jackson was a most interesting character.

Whether the reality matches the narrative is open to endless debate. And goes far beyond a simple response to your question. With the likelihood of being in violation of site rules. Hopefully this helps with your understanding of what's involved without descending into wordiness and tangency. However, history sets the context for the present...."What's past is prologue".

P.S. Not wanting this to be read as exclusive to the United States. Other countries and citizens have their own set of established fundamental philosophies and guiding principals as well. The U.S. Constitution is based in no small part on the British Magna Carta for example.

[Sean2]

DeChambeau seems to be redefining how the game is played: brute force versus finesse. 580 yard par 5: driver/8-iron. Fairway bunkers: airmailed them all. I wonder what is going through the minds of his playing partners watching him drive it 50 yards past them and pretty much playing driver/wedge on a PGA Tour tournament golf course?

[scomac2002]

The game used to be so much more interesting when it was played by mere mortals that made their way around a course with a surgeon's skill rather than today's version of beating a course into submission through brute force. I suppose we can thank Tiger for that, but even he was far more of a technician than this guy in the way he played.

[Sean2]

I couldn't agree more.

[billh17]

I admire his accomplishments, but man, his swing looks like it would give me an immediate hip/lower back

spasm. Looks so stiff,and devoid of any Couples type of smoothness. I know we all have our own swing, but man,

just watching him swing,doesn't look like it would be a long lasting method. But, it works for him, so there is that !

[Conrad1953]

Many long drive guys have tried to make it on tour and didn't. Many hoped Sadlowski would make it but he didn't. There is no

doubt that distance is a huge advantage on tour BUT you still gotta have the rest of the shots to get there and stay there. You

gotta be a golfer. Brute force alone is not enough.

 

Remember when Tiger was the longest guy on tour? That was an advantage for him but he still had to capitalize on that advantage;

which he did, by being the best iron player to ever play the game and a dam good putter. Bryson is a heckuva golfer and won 5 times

on the PGA Tour before this latest post covid19 break version of him showed up.

[tolmij]

It was not expected even when I was 17 that you would alter the family direction at work. I did an engineering apprenticeship in the workshop, my father was a machine operator so I was one up already, and when I was offered a staff job instructing apprentices that was going to heights never imagined, when my career moved on from there to a training management job in a large motor manufacturer I was out of the family job circle big time, to such an extent that when my father passed on even though we were then in Australia he left me nothing in his will as I did not need it due to my ability to secure upper management positions. We were not expected to move out of the circle and to a large extent it was not appreciated because we then supposedly thought we were better than them.

This was the general attitude in the UK, when I met a young lady and we started going steady, her father made us break up because I worked on the shop floor and they were all office staff.

Funny world we live in.

[scomac2002]

The clubs arrived this afternoon while I was out. At first I began to wonder if they had ever been hit based on the condition of the shafts a grips! Once unpacked it was clear that they had been played, but gently would be the descriptor.

They aren't as light as you might imagine for a 55g shaft. It's kinda surprising really which is a testament to the balance of the clubs. I was test driving the 9 iron in the back yard and my second chip ended up in my neighbor's yard over the fence...

Judgement will be reserved until I've got at least a couple of games under my belt. They have jumbo Tour Wrap grips on so that's a handful. I've got 3 Lamkin Sonar + in inventory, so I would need to order 3 more and I'll probably get two 3 packs of the graphite shaft extenders because the clubs feel a bit short compared to what I've been using, particularly the short irons, but I'm going to go ahead with them as is for starters. Factory lie angles should be fine.

Took the shipping box and neatly packed up my old irons along with the 5 hybrid and Baffler 3W & 7W. I wouldn't get much more than $100 for the whole kit 'n caboodle so I'll just hang onto them in reserve. I've got other things I can sell for modest amounts to put towards future purchases.

[billh17]

@ Scomac: I hope they work out for you ! I am really interested in what you think of the "A" flex. I have

been thinking of it and realize that the day will arrive,so i am really curious what they feel like to you.

FWIW, You are going the same route i would go to start with them. A couple rounds to get used to them

and then determine whats needed to bring them up to your liking ! Good luck ,and I hope they are a winner !

[Hankshank]

there has been movements of course in the 20th century in Europe/scandinavia. But my grandfather was not allowed to study although clever in school, only the oldest son in the blacksmith family was allowed to study and my grandfather was third. My father took the scandinavian version of the german Realschule, as the only working class guy in his class, guess its the same as an elite high school. But University was out of his reach, he had the grades but couldnt afford it. Made a good career anyhow, but is still resentful in his 83rd year about not going to university. Me and my brother, growing up in a lower middle class area was first in the family in university but of course we became engineers, you had to get a job, like. Even my kids who are in the university age have chosen and looks toward engineering, guess its my fault. I live in an area with quite a lot of academics, and those kids do study stuff because the subjects interest them. I had kind of wished that my kids would want to do that, but the getting a job paradigm seems to be hard to escape. Maybe my grandkids.... can become presidents!

[scomac2002]

I've been playing A flex (or M flex in TM parlance) in my driver since last year. I purchased A flex FW's and hybrid late last year and have played them exclusively since. IMO the shafts load easier and as a result have more kick. I can't overpower them at my swing speed, but that doesn't stop me from getting a bit quick and pulling that change up foul of the left field line. I can't think of any reason not to take the leap other than some hard data on Trackman or similar that says you don't belong there.

I remember watching a guy on YouTube do a comparative test between drivers of different flex: same head just different flexes of the same shaft. The guy actually hit the A flex about as good as any despite him having a swing speed in excess of 100 mph! If you get fussy about it you could say that he overcooked his draw a bit, but that was probably to be expected. More importantly his results were actually better with A than R! Perhaps quality control is better?

I may have mentioned on here before that I'm a BIG fan of Lady Pinnacles. They're my preferred ball for vintage play. Too bad that you can only get them now in pink. The point being not to be afraid of trying something new out even if it goes against your man card so-to-speak. Remember; Fred Couples won a major using an L flex 5W he picked up in an LGS some years ago!

[tolmij]

sco takes a real man to play a pink ball, but be careful with these comments today as we could be up for all sorts of legal issues. ?????????

[Fellaheen51]

Been thinking about A flex shafts as well. Perhaps it's getting close to that time in my golfing life. And have been contemplating a gradual conversion of the implements.

Couple of seasons back when I was demoing the G400 Max driver, tried both A and R. Hit the A flex a little further (based on the Trackman Range app on my phone) with a nice baby draw. But if I tried to step on it a bit, would turn in to a nasty hook (Pulled foul. Ha.). Same findings on two different occasions. But now...I'm wondering. Been browsing for a A flex Alta with tip to try. They show up periodically. Missed one a week ago that sold for ~ $65. The one nice thing about swivel tips, allows you to plug and play. If I decided to go with A flex, could dump the R flex to mostly cover the expense.

Could see transitioning the fairways over to A flex as well. The 7 metal has a heavier weight shaft installed, seems to be a bit of an outlier relative to the others. Don't seem to hit it all that well, compared to the 5 & 9. A 7 should be money, at least they always had been in prior incarnations. IDK. It's a candidate for a refinish (looks a bit "beat-up"), and I'd pull the shaft to do it. Might reshaft with an A-flex of a thrifty YTBD variety for next year.

I've mentioned before that I continue to be have some issues with the graphites in the irons. They seem to light (73 grams uncut) and I've struggled with controlling them at times. Adding lead tape high on the handle didn't seem to offer any sense of improvement. Made all the more apparent when I've bagged other steel shafted irons in the ~95 - 103 gram range. The club heft feels better with improved dispersion. The dilemma is that I can't find A flex in heavier weights, and heavier graphite comes with a significant cost premium (new, retail). In house are my brothers's Michigan play set of Ping K15 irons with AWT steel A flex shafts. The heads are hideously large, but the shafts are kinda nice. Tried the 5 iron a few times, hit it quite well. Kind of liking the more flexy shaft. It seems that A flex steel had disappeared from the marketplace. Only to recently discover that GW still has Nippon 8950's (.370 and .355) in A flex. Weight is 93 grams, right in the wheelhouse. Contemplating picking one up to test in either the Maltby's or ISI's. Don't really need graphite for shock absorption capabilities at this point. Thinking of selling off the Hogans to fund the exercise if I decide to move forward with a set. With the ISI's in play, question how often the 99's will be utilized into the future. That they've become a bridge to far. And I'm leery of buying pulls because of inaccuracies in correct tipping and lengths. (Got burned on a set of XP95 pulls a couple of years ago, totally out of whack tipping lengths. Were supposedly out of Cally's, still had tip weights and Cally grips installed. Thinking that was how they came from the factory. ??? Made me question the reliability of the QC.)

As a humble hacker, never understood why someone would be geeked about the flex utilized. Have zero ego issue with playing A flex if it facilitates hitting the ball a little bit better. Been using R's forever. With the annual incremental decline in distance, perhaps time to try them out. Have absolutely no idea what my swing speeds are these days. There's a way to measure that? Only been using distance conversion chart, and it ain't pretty. LOL. My only concern is being able to control dispersion.

_________________________________

Off to golf early today. Get the round in before it becomes too hot. Continue the cheap(er) soft Surlyn ball testing. So far, after only one outing, the results are........meh. The supposedly soft TruFeels don't feel all that soft. The Snell Get Sum's? Maybe.

 

[scomac2002]

Been toying with the idea of going to a range today to give these irons at least an initial test drive. There's one about 10 minutes away up on the hill, but it's not much to speak of from the drive-by. There's a better facility with a full short game area about 25 minutes away in St. Catharines, but I think I'll save that for another day. Truth be told, it's a heckuva day for any range work as we're in the middle of a heat wave with plenty of humidity. Also noteworthy is that I haven't been to a range in probably three years at least! No wonder my game is in the dumps!

---------------------------

Honestly, I think more guys would probably benefit from going with A flex shafts than actually use them. I wonder if that's why so many of the made-for R shafts you find in OTR clubs are so whippy? The thing is to get the bend profile right with a suitable flex without losing control. As I said above, I can pull one when I get quick, but I haven't had a problem with hitting incontrollable hooks even when I go after it. That's certainly the case with the driver which I can still get out there over 200 with a good swing. If you go off of the distance matrix that is on that 2013 article on WRX I'm right at 80 mph with the driver which is clearly in A flex territory.

I still know too many guys that are my age and older who won't play anything less than R or even S in some cases. I was playing with a guy on Monday who was hitting laminate fairway woods and Zing 2 irons. You know that the irons are S. The woods are anyone's guess. He said that he'd like to get some hybrids, but didn't know which ones? I said any would do, they're all good. That's maybe a somewhat unique situation in that this fellow hasn't purchased any clubs other than a driver in probably 20 years, so you can see how things could change when he's in his late 70's now.

For the most part, the guys that I play with, no one talks about equipment. There's a running joke is that they all change clubs every 20 years or so (which isn't too far off the truth!) That said, when our convener got a new driver this year -- SIM Max at $700 no less -- all that has earned him is a lot of trash talking from everyone. What the guys have ignored is that I don't think he misses the fairway hardly at all anymore and that's coming from a Nike SUMO driver. I think it's the money that scares people off and they don't think about going used as an alternative. Then the other problem is not knowing what to get. That ultimately leads to the; it won't make a difference to my game mind set.

I'll admit that I could have just soldiered on with the clubs I've got and used a strap until it got too painful to bother playing. I've been down that road before and that's probably why I decided to grab those irons as soon as I saw them. Truth is that I probably like buying clubs every bit as much as I like playing the game. This is my 7th set of irons in 14 years of playing! Drivers, fairways and putters are about the same. I have had more loyalty to my wedges and hybrids changing them only half as often. I guess it's my weakness or one of them anyway!

[Conrad1953]

Quoting Sco......" I still know too many guys that are my age and older who won't play anything less than R or even S in some cases."

 

Haha, I'm one of those guys. It's not a matter of being stubborn or not being able to keep the ego in check. My driver swing speed

is around 95, which puts me on the cusp of R and S flex. I choose S flex in the longer clubs because it gives me better shot dispersion;

and I choose R flex in my irons and wedges for the better feel it provides me.

 

Of course when it comes to shaft flex there is the caveat that there are no industry standards by which shaft flex is measured.....and

also that whether a shaft is simply an R or S flex is a gross oversimplification that doesn't take into account many factors that account

for how a shaft plays and feels.

[scomac2002]

Yabbut, you said your swing speed is 95, so as you indicated that's clearly smack dab in the middle of the R/S continuum. I was there myself at one time not so long ago. I was also routinely hitting 220-230 with my driver. Clearly it's not an age thing and I didn't mean to imply that, but some have more efficient swings than others which allows them to maintain their swing speed as they age. It also helps having above average flexibility.

I'll stand by my comments because out of the crew that I play with almost no one is consistently longer than me. It maybe a lousy sample, but that doesn't change the fact that if I'm one of the longer guys and I'm playing A flex, what the heck are the others thinking that are playing R or more importantly S? To be honest, I don't think that flex even enters into it for most of them other than preconceived notions or an I don't care attitude when buying used.

[chippa13]

Long drive guys only have to hit a "fairway" 1 in 8 times. That doesn't translate well to an actual round of golf.

[Conrad1953]

That's right. Long drive is not golf......and to be fair, I don't think anyone thinks it is. Remember Sadlowski's 255 yard 7 iron commercial?

That was a comic dig at DJ's 7 iron commercial................it was harmless enough and funny......but Sadlowski, in his dreams, wishes he had

DJ's golf game, lol.

 

Now, if Bryson starts winning at the rate Tiger did in the early 2000s.....there will be pressure on the PTB to do something, but there will

be conflict because the golf fans will love watching Bryson play and his galleries will get huge and it will be good for the $$game$$, etc.

[scomac2002]

Now, if Bryson starts winning at the rate Tiger did in the early 2000s.....there will be pressure on the PTB to do something, but there willbe conflict because the golf fans will love watching Bryson play and his galleries will get huge and it will be good for the $$game$$, etc.Now be honest @Conrad1953; does this guy actually trip the light fantastique for you? I'm going to make a bold prediction: there's no way in hades that this guy is ever going to win like Tiger, move the needle like Tiger or ever have the galleries like Tiger. There's nothing the slightest bit endearing about him. H*ll, he can't even pull off the I am a bad man routine without looking like a whiny little beatch.

[Conrad1953]

But but but but.........................he's airmailing all the bunkers..................and turning par 4 approaches into pitch and putts from 45 yards.........he's gonna

ruin the game and piss off the other players. Courses will have to be "Bryson proofed" and the ball rolled back. He's the Wilt Chamberlain of golf.

Mike Davis must be krapping in his khaki's cause Bryson is a USGA Champion and ALL USGA Champions are accorded great respect and deference

BUT, man, no way can Mike allow Bryson to desecrate and belittle the next USGA set up he plays; like he's doing to current PGA Tour set ups.

 

There's gonna have to be a special "Bryson Tee" at the next US Open just to make it fair for the rest of the players. Jack called Mike and they

agreed it's either that or Bryson will have to play a gutta percha.

 

This is a big deal! Yuge! Go will never be the same! We are now in the Beast DeChambeau era.

[Fellaheen51]

bHa. Ha. Ha. LMAO. That's rich. BDC seemingly started to consume to much tour oxygen, with the post Vid lockdown bulk up, 350's, incessant chatter about his mad scientist approach to playing. Was mildly interesting earlier in his career , now has become annoying. The "bad for the brand " bit this past weekend lost it for me. Yeah, OK. Whatever.

TW knew he was bad. One is or they isn't. Can't be conjured. TW is a lot like Michael Jordan in that respect. I'm going to beat you and there's nothing you can do about it. The TW stare was all you needed to see. All in the eyes.

Edit add: Ha. ha. Ha. LMAO (2x). Beast mode world. Watching for stained tour issue khaki's in the sport coat crowd. A controversy has arisen in the Grille.

[Qqq123xx]

But but but but......................

[Conrad1953]

I just checked the leaderboard and no sign of Da Beast. Jack must have ordered him to take the week off. BTW, with all the tournaments

that got cancelled what is this new Workday tournament all about and where did it come from?......and the tour is now gonna play 2 weeks

in a row at Jack's place?

 

I'm assuming the original Tiger will be teeing it up next week? I haven't looked but I'm thinking he likes to play at Jack's house' in the

original Memorial Tournament. He better hope Da Beast doesn't show up next week and steal his galleries OMG. Maybe they'll get paired

together the first 2 days so Tiger does not have to face that potential fiasco.

[scomac2002]

I'm assuming the original Tiger will be teeing it up next week? I haven't looked but I'm thinking he likes to play at Jack's house' in theoriginal Memorial Tournament. He better hope Da Beast doesn't show up next week and steal his galleries OMG. Maybe they'll get pairedtogether the first 2 days so Tiger does not have to face that potential fiasco.You're just a sayin that to p*ss my off... It's kinda like your double spaced typing that doesn't want to quote as a single block!

While we're at it lets just look at want Da Beast has really done:

That swing isn't his. Moe Norman pioneered that way of hitting a ball. BDC has a ways to go to become as consistent as old Moe was. Lee Trevino called Moe the greatest ball striker the game ever saw!One length irons have been done before, they're not the brainchild of BDC or David Edel either. They go all the way back to a set of Spaldings built for Bobby Jones in the 1930's!He won the NCAA and the UA Amateur. Kudos definitely warranted for that especially pulling off the double in the same year.5 PGA Tour wins to date. 14 major starts; 8 cuts made and 3 top 25's, IOW a nice start to a professional careerSo that's what we've got and you're anointing him the next great thing?

[scomac2002]

Didn't make it to the range yesterday. I was all ready to go and then my BIL called wanting to meet for coffee as he was out riding. Seemed like a reasonable option as a bike ride had been on the short list prior to the new irons arriving.

Clubhouse manager is away on holiday this week so the mice get to run things. With the heat and humidity there were a lot of cancelations. I expect more in the coming weeks if this keeps up which the forecasters say it will!

Had an easy day of it now that the carts have dividers and with much less than a full tee sheet. Managed to get outa there at 1 pm which was a good thing because I had to get home and see about our central air which decided not to run last night! I thought that it may have iced up, but it did get going eventually after I shut it down for a few hours. Maybe it had just overheated. I washed out the outside coils as they were quite dirty and everything seems to be working okay today. It has been holding steady at 24.5°C despite the outside temperature being 36.5°C!

Thursday is market day, so now I'm off to the Farmer's Market.

[Conrad1953]

Love me some Moe...................

[SixtySomePing]

Here ya go Radro... Tiger Woods will play in the Memorial Tournament

[Conrad1953]

Thanks Sixty. Good to see the real needle will be back in action instead of this counterfeit Beast guy.....though I do hope

they are paired together the first 2 days. I wonder when was the last time Tiger played in front of 10 people. I picture him

saying....."no matter how hard you try to simulate playing in front of 10 people, you just can't do it". He may be a little

out of his element the first couple days. until he adjusts to not having his gallery there.

[Fellaheen51]

Da Beast v. Da Bad Man. I'd be interested in watching some of that. Although TW will be at a competitive disadvantage absent his galleria. BDC will draw inspiration from the trailing cameramen.

Channeling Ole' Stink Eye?

Summoning his inner Zen.

 

 

[tolmij]

I tend to agree, I think much of Tigers power came from the crowd, he just seems to react better than most when there are large galleries. I had a friend who could never win a judo tournament with small crowds put him in front of thousands and off he went.