Unplayable lie in waste bunker

[Argonne69]

I prefer the term waste area as opposed to waste bunker. There are plenty of courses that have waste areas that were never bunkers. They were designed from the git go as "through the green". As has been pointed out previously, some of these areas are designed for electric carts. Desert courses generally have lots of "wash" areas, i.e. waste areas.

 

That said, how does one identify a bunker? A rake? Many courses do not put rakes in/near bunkers, and they can get stolen. I guess courses could mark bunkers as they do water hazards, but aesthetically it would be gawd awful to have a course marked up with more paint. I get the feeling that many of simply know a bunker when we see one, but there can certainly be some confusion. Right, Dustin Johnson?

[Argonne69]

You're tilting at a windmill, which is fun but in the end unproductive.

 

What if the windmill is in a waste bunker, err, area?

 

[Augster]

On this course these were all formerly bunkers. Lots of bunkers.

 

With cutbacks etc. they have chosen not to have the groundscrew spend many hours every day getting the bunkers ready for play. So they have declared all bunkers on the course as waste areas. Or "waste bunkers" as said by the starter.

 

The rakes are there, I'm guessing, to rake footprints when you're in a "waste area" that is greenside. More as a common courtesy to others behind you that will also be shooting toward the green. There were no rakes around fairway waste areas.

 

Thanks all for the help.

[Colin L]

You're tilting at a windmill, which is fun but in the end unproductive.

 

What if the windmill is in a waste bunker, err, area?

 

 

Then by all means have a tilt at it and if it doesn't run away it must be an immovable obstruction. :)

 

By the way, as far as I can make out there are only bunkers in that photo

[mdgboxx]

You're all wet! :swoon:

 

Care to share something...Not as soggy?

 

Or are you shaking your head in discuss that the Ruling Bodies, while busy with the groove rule and the solo player handicap rule, that they never thought of properly defining something that has been staring them in the face, like forever?

 

This "thing" of yours (Well, not really yours, but you seem to have taken up its cause.) already has a name. It's called "through the green." Why cook up some new name for some random bit of through the green?

 

No it's not, and it never was. IMHO.

 

The "rough" is "through the green", exactly like a "waste bunker" is part of "through the green", yet, you and everyone else in the world refers to it as "rough". Then, we add the kind of "rough", such as: long, heavy, short, mid, etc., etc.

 

And then, there is the type of grass, that "rough" is made of. Some "rougher" than others to get a club through.

 

Your reasoning is all over the place as result of your insistence on calling something that is not a bunker a bunker. No need to write a new rule or amend a present one. Just stop using the word bunker of anything that is not bunker according to the Definition. Result? The total absence of confusion I've enjoyed all my life as to what constitutes a bunker as opposed to the considerable number of sand dunes, sandy areas, beaches, grassy hollows I've seen and indeed played from. I don't have difficulty either in recognising that an area that has clearly been prepared as a bunker but is now neglected and in a mess is still a bunker.

 

But that's all been said many times already. Not much point in protracting the discussion, really. You're tilting at a windmill, which is fun but in the end unproductive.

 

Precisely what I have been saying all along. It's a bunker!

 

It never was my intention, to force the hand of the Ruling Bodies, to change any Rule in the book. But, to suggest that a clarification, concerning a "no longer maintained" bunker, be added to the RoG definition of such a playing surface.

 

As Sawgrass brought forward: "The entire left side of hole #16 is a Waste Area", suggests to me that's it's not a limited, pre-determined/designed surface with specific immovable boundaries. It is rather, a random area, might it be entirely within or OB at some point.

 

(Same as OB white stakes) All bunkers have such specific boundaries.

 

Some (most on here) have a problem with my use of the term "Waste Bunker".

Most do not have a problem with my use of the term "Waste".

By elimination, the problem lies in my use of the word "Bunker", as a proper definition of what is, IMHO, a "Waste Bunker".

 

Yet, you and I finally agree that it is, indeed a Bunker.

 

While I am all wet, and tilting at a windmill, we have to admit that, "through the green" is not a specific spot, as your ball is played AS "through the green" and not FROM "through the green". Others have suggested "waste area", which is not a specific non negotiable/immovable area either, such as a Bunker. Do I need to remind you that a LWH, that has overflowed, becomes "casual water" when the Committee didn't take proper action? You get free relief from Casual Water, but don't expect any favors from a LWH. (Which are both defined in the RoG)

 

You have to notice that, while the army fights for the right to disagree that it could/should be defined as a "Waste Bunker", if only for clarification in the RoG, not one single soldier has come up with a better suggestion...Only what it shouldn't be.

 

As it says above my avatar: Put lipstick on a pig - - - It's still a pig. :rofl:

[QEight]

You have to notice that, while the army fights for the right to disagree that it could/should be defined as a "Waste Bunker", if only for clarification in the RoG, not one single soldier has come up with a better suggestion...Only what it shouldn't be.

 

If there exists a neglected bunker on course which is not to be regarded as a bunker then committee should declare "The neglected bunker left side of fairway on 15th, is to be played as through-the-green.". No need to mention word waste (bunker) and no need to change the rules. If you add waste bunker, someone will drop the word waste and we are back in square one.

 

What actually is your problem with the current definitions? I have lost it and can not continue any reasonable debate anymore.

[Argonne69]

You're tilting at a windmill, which is fun but in the end unproductive.

 

What if the windmill is in a waste bunker, err, area?

 

 

Then by all means have a tilt at it and if it doesn't run away it must be an immovable obstruction. :)

 

By the way, as far as I can make out there are only bunkers in that photo

 

That's the Dismal River Nicklaus course in Nebraska. I played it last August. If I'm not mistaken, there's a watering hole near the windmill which is marked as the only water hazard on the course. It's ~6 feet in diameter. I believe the surrounding area is a waste area. The sandy area in the right part, and back left, of the pic are bunkers.

[mdgboxx]

You have to notice that, while the army fights for the right to disagree that it could/should be defined as a "Waste Bunker", if only for clarification in the RoG, not one single soldier has come up with a better suggestion...Only what it shouldn't be.

 

If there exists a neglected bunker on course which is not to be regarded as a bunker then committee should declare "The neglected bunker left side of fairway on 15th, is to be played as through-the-green.". No need to mention word waste (bunker) and no need to change the rules. If you add waste bunker, someone will drop the word waste and we are back in square one.

 

What actually is your problem with the current definitions? I have lost it and can not continue any reasonable debate anymore.

 

 

 

Copy/Paste from: Dictionary.com

 

hell or high water, come

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, in spite of hell or high water. No matter what difficulty or obstacle, as in I'm going to finish this week, come hell or high water. This colloquial expression, alluding to the destructive forces of hellfire or flood, was first recorded in 1915 but is thought to be older.

 

Thank you QEight, I learned a new term today: "Colloquial expression" :yess:

 

Where, in your 200+ IQ brain, did you find the certainty that someone, somewhere on this planet, will drop the word "waste" in the term Waste Bunker?

 

I agree that I am not a man of the world, with everything it may imply, such as yourself. That said, I have yet to meet someone familiar with the above mentioned colloquial expression, that dropped any of the five words it is made of.

 

Again, to be clear, my problem is not with the definition, it's with the fact that there is none. As far as the Rules are concerned, they're already in place.

 

Apendix 1-4b, Preferred Lies and Winter Rules.

 

I have never heard the term "Winter Rules" spoken in Abu Dhabi, but you and I are quite familiar with it, aren't we?

 

Yet, it is included in the RoG definitions.

 

Do you really believe that if the term "Neglected Bunker" was accepted instead, someone, somewhere, would necessarily drop the word "neglected"?

 

At the very least, you shared an alternative for Waste Bunker. Seeeee, you're not as lost as you think.

[mdgboxx]

You're tilting at a windmill, which is fun but in the end unproductive.

 

What if the windmill is in a waste bunker, err, area?

 

 

Then by all means have a tilt at it and if it doesn't run away it must be an immovable obstruction. :)

 

By the way, as far as I can make out there are only bunkers in that photo

 

That's the Dismal River Nicklaus course in Nebraska. I played it last August. If I'm not mistaken, there's a watering hole near the windmill which is marked as the only water hazard on the course. It's ~6 feet in diameter. I believe the surrounding area is a waste area. The sandy area in the right part, and back left, of the pic are bunkers.

 

Haha!

 

Not one single Waste Bunker in sight.

[dormie1360]

Not sure while I'm still reading this thread. At least I haven't heard "waste trap" yet. :stop:

[mdgboxx]

Not sure while I'm still reading this thread. At least I haven't heard "waste trap" yet. :stop:

 

Like most everyone else, you're reading, hoping I'll fry.

 

So, you're saying there should be a definition in the RoG?

[Dpavs]

The way I read this whole thing and the rules is that if it was an area where soil or turf was removed intentionally and filled with sand or a similar substance it is a bunker and should be treated as such despite if it falls into disrepair or neglect latter. It ceases to be a bunker only if it is redefined by the course as to be treated as an area "through the green".

 

If on the other had it is a naturally occurring area of sand, rocks, etc. then it is an area "through the green" unless it is defined by the course as something else.

 

As for what you want to call them, I think that's pretty arbitrary. After all there are no fairways either right? They are just closely mown areas "through the green".

[mdgboxx]

The way I read this whole thing and the rules is that if it was an area where soil or turf was removed intentionally and filled with sand or a similar substance it is a bunker and should be treated as such despite if it falls into disrepair or neglect latter. It ceases to be a bunker only if it is redefined by the course as to be treated as an area "through the green".

 

If on the other had it is a naturally occurring area of sand, rocks, etc. then it is an area "through the green" unless it is defined by the course as something else.

 

As for what you want to call them, I think that's pretty arbitrary. After all there are no fairways either right? They are just closely mown areas "through the green".

 

Fairways are the constant used to define closely mown areas. FIR?

Short rough around the green is not a closely mown area, if it's cut longer than fairway length. The fringe around the green, is.

[rogolf]

At least one question remains - when your ball is in one of your "waste bunkers", what Rules do you follow? Is 13-4 applicable?

[mdgboxx]

At least one question remains - when your ball is in one of your "waste bunkers", what Rules do you follow? Is 13-4 applicable?

 

 

Post #53

 

Bunker: Rule 13-4

 

Waste Bunker: Through the Green...Your first option, as always, is to play it as it lies and you may ground your club, move/remove loose impediments.

 

Throughout the RoG, a situation calls for Rule X, after application, a new situation (after effect) calls for Rule Y, etc.

 

IMO, different Rule, different definition, if only to better clarify...Remove all doubts.

[rogolf]

At least one question remains - when your ball is in one of your "waste bunkers", what Rules do you follow? Is 13-4 applicable?

 

 

Post #53

 

Bunker: Rule 13-4

 

Waste Bunker: Through the Green...Your first option, as always, is to play it as it lies and you may ground your club, move/remove loose impediments.

 

Throughout the RoG, a situation calls for Rule X, after application, a new situation (after effect) calls for Rule Y, etc.

 

IMO, different Rule, different definition, if only to better clarify...Remove all doubts.

Let's see how you get on with that interpretation.

[mdgboxx]

At least one question remains - when your ball is in one of your "waste bunkers", what Rules do you follow? Is 13-4 applicable?

 

 

Post #53

 

Bunker: Rule 13-4

 

Waste Bunker: Through the Green...Your first option, as always, is to play it as it lies and you may ground your club, move/remove loose impediments.

 

Throughout the RoG, a situation calls for Rule X, after application, a new situation (after effect) calls for Rule Y, etc.

 

IMO, different Rule, different definition, if only to better clarify...Remove all doubts.

Let's see how you get on with that interpretation.

 

That's what she said, when we came in from the pool: "How can something so small, get so big"?

 

Let's have a drink! :drinks: :rofl:

 

[Dpavs]

The way I read this whole thing and the rules is that if it was an area where soil or turf was removed intentionally and filled with sand or a similar substance it is a bunker and should be treated as such despite if it falls into disrepair or neglect latter. It ceases to be a bunker only if it is redefined by the course as to be treated as an area "through the green".

 

If on the other had it is a naturally occurring area of sand, rocks, etc. then it is an area "through the green" unless it is defined by the course as something else.

 

As for what you want to call them, I think that's pretty arbitrary. After all there are no fairways either right? They are just closely mown areas "through the green".

 

Fairways are the constant used to define closely mown areas. FIR?

Short rough around the green is not a closely mown area, if it's cut longer than fairway length. The fringe around the green, is.

 

Sure, but the point is that the USGA doesn't specifically define a fairway and only makes one reference to the word in another section. So you can call something anything I suppose as long as it is commonly understood what that is referring to.

[Newby]

 

the USGA does specifically define a fairway

 

Where?

[sui generis]

24-2b/8 :)

[DavePelz4]

Well per the RoG, there's no such thing as a birdie from a waste bunker since neither of them exist.

[Newby]

24-2b/8 :)

 

Hardly a definition. "A statement of the exact meaning of a word"

 

Just a mention.

[Dpavs]

the USGA does specifically define a fairway

 

Where?

 

Sorry typo, should have been doesn't which is consistent with my original post. (fixed the typo now, thanks!)

[mdgboxx]

I'm hoping that we can all agree one thing, I believe we do:

We've been going around in circles over the last 75+ post, and we are dangerously close to being off topic.

 

The OP, Augster, asked about the procedure when you land in a waste bunker. He got the proper reply within the next 3 posts.

 

Then I chimed in, wondering why the term "Waste Bunker" wasn't mentioned anywhere in the Golf literature, even though in is a widely used expression, since for ever, all over the planet.

 

Then, it took off, rocketing through the Rules of Golf, the Decisions Bible (24-2b/8) to a different galaxy.

 

Through the Green is anywhere on the Course, except the green and teeing ground ( tee box, see?) of the hole being played, and all hazards.

 

Tee box, rough, (all specific versions) fairways and others are all accepted, and regularly used terms in the Golf vocabulary. Although not precisely defined as such, there is a mention of most of them in the RoG, (OK, tee box remains teeing ground) but not a waste bunker, which is A BUNKER that was abandoned/neglected/left to fend for itself/no longer maintained by the grounds crew.

 

Rule 13-4 does not apply for that type of playing condition.

 

It is played as "through the green" instead.

 

Through the Green is not, and never was a specific location on the Golf Course. It is everywhere, except,,,,,,.

 

My question is: Why is a Bunker, where Rule 13-4 does not apply, not mentioned anywhere as something else than a bunker. Christian it, give it a name already. I suggested: "Waste Bunker"

 

Obviously, it's not doing so well. OTOH, all who cringe at the simple thought of calling it a Waste Bunker, have repeatedly used the term themselves.

 

IMHO, the term Waste Bunker should be slipped into the Golf Literature, whit the same value as Fairway, Rough, etc.

 

Again: "How can something so small, get so big" ? :rofl:

 

I know.....Horse Blinders! And, :fishing1:

 

Suuuuurre! Just for you, :rofl:

[Dpavs]

My question is: Why is a Bunker, where Rule 13-4 does not apply, not mentioned anywhere as something else than a bunker. Christian it, give it a name already. I suggested: "Waste Bunker"

 

The answer in my mind is simply because it does not need to be called anything other than one of many areas "through the green" as all of these areas are treated the same under the rules. In essence because the rules do not distinguish it as being different, why bother giving it a name? If you started doing this you would be sliding down a rabbit hole of giving names to any number of golf course areas even though under the rules those things require no special consideration.

[Halebopp]

 

Then I chimed in, wondering why the term "Waste Bunker" wasn't mentioned anywhere in the Golf literature, even though in is a widely used expression, since for ever, all over the planet.

 

 

That's a bold statement. I for one hadn't heard of a "waste bunker" before this thread. I had heard of waste areas before though.

 

In case a course has old bunkers that are now waste areas, why can't they make them bunkers again, state such areas on the scorecard/local rules, mark the areas as GUR or cover the areas with grass and be done with it? If the course isn't bothered to do any of those things, it doesn't seem like it's the Rules of Golf that should be accommodating them creating new problems with terminology and adding new rules for everyone else.

[Argonne69]

My question is: Why is a Bunker, where Rule 13-4 does not apply, not mentioned anywhere as something else than a bunker. Christian it, give it a name already. I suggested: "Waste Bunker"

 

The answer in my mind is simply because it does not need to be called anything other than one of many areas "through the green" as all of these areas are treated the same under the rules. In essence because the rules do not distinguish it as being different, why bother giving it a name? If you started doing this you would be sliding down a rabbit hole of giving names to any number of golf course areas even though under the rules those things require no special consideration.

 

Yup. Runoff area. Chipping area. Fringe. Wash. Desert. Waste area. Rough. First cut. Fairway. Pine straw. Woods. Native area. All through the green unless otherwise marked.

[Sawgrass]

 

 

Tee box, rough, (all specific versions) fairways and others are all accepted, and regularly used terms in the Golf vocabulary. Although not precisely defined as such, there is a mention of most of them in the RoG, (OK, tee box remains teeing ground) but not a waste bunker, which is A BUNKER that was abandoned/neglected/left to fend for itself/no longer maintained by the grounds crew.

 

 

 

Mdg, I enjoy your playing with words as you do. I believe though that you and I (and others) have a fundamental disagreement regarding the (unestablished) definition of a Waste Bunker which is making the establishment of such a definition particularly important to you, though not so much to me. You seem to think that a Waste Bunker is a neglected Bunker. I don't buy that at all. To me, a neglected Bunker is simply a Bunker where you're apt to have more trouble than others -- though the Rules regarding Bunkers still firmly apply.

 

A "Waste Bunker" or "Waste Area" is an area that was never intended to be a Bunker at all, it's an area designed to be a particular type of "rough" right from the start. "Rough without grass" if you will. And since these areas of rough without grass are not hazards of any kind, they are simply, naturally played as Through the Green.

 

If it were true that a Bunker's neglect was intended to change the way we play from it, your demand of a definition would certainly be necessary.

[Argonne69]

Tee box, rough, (all specific versions) fairways and others are all accepted, and regularly used terms in the Golf vocabulary. Although not precisely defined as such, there is a mention of most of them in the RoG, (OK, tee box remains teeing ground) but not a waste bunker, which is A BUNKER that was abandoned/neglected/left to fend for itself/no longer maintained by the grounds crew.

 

 

 

Mdg, I enjoy your playing with words as you do. I believe though that you and I (and others) have a fundamental disagreement regarding the (unestablished) definition of a Waste Bunker which is making the establishment of such a definition particularly important to you, though not so much to me. You seem to think that a Waste Bunker is a neglected Bunker. I don't buy that at all. To me, a neglected Bunker is simply a Bunker where you're apt to have more trouble than others -- though the Rules regarding Bunkers still firmly apply.

 

A "Waste Bunker" or "Waste Area" is an area that was never intended to be a Bunker at all, it's an area designed to be a particular type of "rough" right from the start. "Rough without grass" if you will. And since these areas of rough without grass are not hazards of any kind, they are simply, naturally played as Through the Green.

 

If it were true that a Bunker's neglect was intended to change the way we play from it, your demand of a definition would certainly be necessary.

 

For example, the hardpan sand, wire-grass, pine needles, and pine cones on Pinehurst No.2.

 

[mdgboxx]

My question is: Why is a Bunker, where Rule 13-4 does not apply, not mentioned anywhere as something else than a bunker. Christian it, give it a name already. I suggested: "Waste Bunker"

 

The answer in my mind is simply because it does not need to be called anything other than one of many areas "through the green" as all of these areas are treated the same under the rules. In essence because the rules do not distinguish it as being different, why bother giving it a name? If you started doing this you would be sliding down a rabbit hole of giving names to any number of golf course areas even though under the rules those things require no special consideration.

 

Because the terms: Fairway, Rough (incl. types: short, mid, long, heavy) and "all of these areas" that are treated the same under the Rules, have a name indicating which specific part of "Through the Green" is being dealt with. Even though, none of them are defined in the RoG, the literature and golf specific vocabulary gives them a name/term.

 

What was once, definitely a Bunker, played under Rule 13-4, is no longer played under that rule, when the Committee changed it's status. It is played under whatever which rule is indicated under Through the Green. But, unlike all others, it doesn't have a Name/Term to differentiate it from any other. Would you appreciate it, when you ask where your ball went, because the sun is in your face, you get the response: "It's Through the Green"?

 

Let's, at least agree that you'd rather hear "It's in the fairway" and better still, in the "Middle of the fairway"?

 

It's not in the Rules because it is not a Rule. There's no Rule to change.

It is a Bunker that is no longer played under Rule 13-4, because it's status was changed.

Giving it a name/term, such as Waste Bunker, would indicate that, said Bunker, is played under the Rules applicable to Through the Green. It would help to identify which of the seven Bunkers on that hole...No more confusion!!!