ANA rules issue (Merged)

[Golfjack]

In terms of the ruling, although correct as the current rules stand, I think most agree that a 4 stroke penalty is ridiculous overkill. The rules get revisited and revised periodically, and perhaps that's what should happen here.

 

BTW, when replacing a marked ball, how accurate must you be. Is there any margin for error in the rule? Precise blade of grass, exact satellite global positioning coordinates?

 

Clearly she did not replace the ball to its exact location, but how often is the ball replaced in the EXACT location by anyone? How about if you're a millimeter off, just a blade of grass one way or the other? What's the standard? Hi def slow motion TV I suppose...

 

Maybe what there should be is a ball marking device lol. It puts down the marker and provides a guidance for the ball. Then there is no leeway for breaking any rule. Although I hate it when the ball is on a indentation or uneven mark and just won't stay.

[vrnyn]

What a mess.

IMO at worst a two stroke penalty.

[chris975d]

How hard is it to put the ball back on the same spot especially when it is lifted a couple of inches off the ground. Nobody else seemed to be troubled replacing the ball during the tournament did they?

 

And for all those worried it was the day after Lexi was told, (also as soon as the LPGA had made their ruling), would you prefer to see a time limit introduced where you can break the rules but not worry after say 20 mins, 3 hours or something? Player was notified during tournament therefore takes the penalty. Balling rolling in an unfilled divot in middle of fairway not much fun either but you don't get to pick which rules you play by do you.

 

Yes, but as I said in my post just before you, they would not have assessed anything if a rules violation was found today for any previous round, including the final round, because competition has closed. So in theory you could break a rule on Sunday, win the event, and if it was found Monday...you're still the winner. So there IS a time limit to breaking a rule and not getting caught..it's the close of the final round. So for a Thursday round you have until the end of the day Sunday to get caught (3 to 4 days), but for Sunday you only have to worry until the end of that day. That's not consistent.

 

So scores should be finalized after that days completion. No retroactive penalties. No other sport does this, even when clear evidence is brought in.

[forgedforever]

The dumbest thing here, imo, is the two stroke penalty for failing to include penalty strokes on her scorecard that she didn't know she had incurred. If the Rules Committee believes she was cheating, then she should be DQ'ed. If the Rules Committee believes this was an honest mistake, then the two strokes they are assessing a day later in the middle of the round is penal enough. 6-6(d) needs to be reexamined.

 

I also question whether, in this circumstance, she truly played from the "wrong place". Here it appears there was perhaps a centimeter's difference in where she placed the ball, and the Committee thought that was enough. But I would not have faulted the Committee for looking at that tape and determining that the difference was negligible, it was not the "wrong place" in this circumstance and that no penalty should be incurred.

 

The first paragraph here is pure gold. I was up at 3:30 this morning trying to think of a way to say it exactly as you did. I kept struggling and ended up leaving any reference to it out of my prior post. Well done, indeed.

[bladehunter]

Nobody is in the right here, other than the eventual winner.

 

Lexi broke the rules, was punished accordingly, and to the letter of the law. 4 strokes may sound harsh, but that's the correct penalty. She was a bit silly, and paid the price.

 

The LPGA were in a no win situation, and I have to say I have a bit of sympathy for them. They had to act, and there wouldn't have been a right time to do it in the eyes of the public. This would be even worse if it was later discovered that they had brushed the matter under the carpet. They would have been accused of letting a home favourite break the rules in order to win, and Lexi's victory would either be tarnished forever, or taken away from her.

 

 

Mark,

 

In regards to them sweeping it under the carpet, here's my take on that from a few pages back:

 

I think there would be much less controversy if it came out that they didn't act on the email. It would have been very simple to say, "the notice came in too late and in the spirit of the game (a phrase that gets bandied about quite a bit) we felt it was not appropriate to take any action". "A judgment call on our part that we felt was in the best interest of the tournament and the game itself ".

 

So lie, cover up a "rules infraction", and just go on about our business.

 

Sounds like a wonderful idea. That never comes back to bite someone in the arse.....

 

The LPGA had no choice once notified. If they make an attempt to sweep it under the rug, it could have a much worse impact on the sport. The game is bigger than one person, or one tournament. Until rules are changed, or they cap things at the end of each round, this will happen.

 

they do have a choice... they can post a " all emails answered on monday " to their info email addresses .. then could easily say " its in the books and cannot be altered after the fact".... just like every other sport on earth..... the issue isnt the rules penalty.. its the fact that it was a call in and no doubt done after the fact on purpose so she would get a 2 stroke penalty as well for signing incorrect card... some jackass actually was allowed to decide the outcome.. thats the real shame.... calls ins shoudlnt be allowed ..period... stop that at home referees.... im sure there are some reading here... i' would ask that they please have the guts to speak up..

[widow-maker]

4 stroke penalty for that infraction was egregious. When she signed her card, she and everyone involved thought it was correct. If you find an error the following day, then you should allow her the opportunity to review and sign an amended card without the additional 2 stroke penalty for signing an incorrect card. To me, you confront the player before they sign their card with evidence that they did something wrong so that they have the opportunity to contest it or agree with it. If you can't do it timely, then you need to waive the incorrect scorecard part of the solution.

[Nessism]

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/contact-us.html

 

Just sent the USGA a note about the need to fix the rules.

 

1) one penalty, not two. The signing a wrong scorecard penalty was pure BS.

 

2) rules violations should be noted on the course at the time of the infraction. Third party "call in" tip offs should be disallowed unless flagrant cheating is involved.

[bladehunter]

The dumbest thing here, imo, is the two stroke penalty for failing to include penalty strokes on her scorecard that she didn't know she had incurred. If the Rules Committee believes she was cheating, then she should be DQ'ed. If the Rules Committee believes this was an honest mistake, then the two strokes they are assessing a day later in the middle of the round is penal enough. 6-6(d) needs to be reexamined.

 

I also question whether, in this circumstance, she truly played from the "wrong place". Here it appears there was perhaps a centimeter's difference in where she placed the ball, and the Committee thought that was enough. But I would not have faulted the Committee for looking at that tape and determining that the difference was negligible, it was not the "wrong place" in this circumstance and that no penalty should be incurred.

 

 

 

absolutely sheriff.... i take this ruling as the LPGA calling Lexi a cheater... i think they should be called out for it .. and made to address that part at once.

[larssonlegend]

The dumbest thing here, imo, is the two stroke penalty for failing to include penalty strokes on her scorecard that she didn't know she had incurred. If the Rules Committee believes she was cheating, then she should be DQ'ed. If the Rules Committee believes this was an honest mistake, then the two strokes they are assessing a day later in the middle of the round is penal enough. 6-6(d) needs to be reexamined.

 

I also question whether, in this circumstance, she truly played from the "wrong place". Here it appears there was perhaps a centimeter's difference in where she placed the ball, and the Committee thought that was enough. But I would not have faulted the Committee for looking at that tape and determining that the difference was negligible, it was not the "wrong place" in this circumstance and that no penalty should be incurred.

 

I agree with your first paragraph but there can be no doubt she played from "wrong place" . Any spike mark on her original line would not be on the line she hit from if there happened to be one.

[CheckJV]

I'm imposing a million dollar fine on the LPGA for accepting Lexi's incorrect score card on day 3.

 

They should have known that they would receive an email notification of a potential rules violation the following day.

 

The LPGA organization can tell the future, correct? They seem to think that the Lexi has that ability.

 

 

 

 

[DrRob1963]

Well Nessism - the LPGA already knows exactly what I think about them!

[tigerstew]

Just stupid. 4 shot penalty for that? If she got 1 shot penalty for that misstake, but 4? Golf really is a silly stupid game sometimes. I don't care that someone call it in. That's not the problem. The problem is the ruling. People who can't see that a 4 shot penalty is absurd are just blind. Also, what would happen if we watched ice hockey and all of the sudden the other team got a goal dismissed in the end of the game becuse someone call in on a high stick prior to a goal from the first period. No it wouldn't happen becuse ice hockey is a sport. If golf want to be a sport and not just some silly game, s*** like this needs to end.

 

Rules are rules. End of. Stop moaning

 

Rules are indeed rules but when events occur that reveal them to be ridiculous & harmful to the game maybe it's a good idea to have a bit of a moan so that they can be changed for the better? Or are we as a species just a subserviant group of walkovers who'll put up with anything without a fuss? That's now 2 majors blighted by rules infringements in 10 months, it shouldn't be the focus.

 

I hope they do fix the armchair caller problem, the coverage of golf is not like other sports and naturally those at the sharp end receive the bulk of airtime. It's not proportionate to the whole field and it should be left to tournament officals, players and caddies to deal with this stuff. Frankly anyone who calls in should be embarrassed to get involved with it.

 

This is my problem with letting people call in. So now we know that Lexi did that, but what is Ryu did something Friday that was worthy of a penalty? She wasn't near the lead on Friday so no one could spot something on her.

 

This one bothers me much much more than any other one. They responded to an email that came in 24 hours after the infraction happened. They shouldn't have nailed her with the 4 stroke IMO. That was in poor taste by the LPGA IMO. And all the LPGA had to do to make that part ok, was state that she was assessed the 2 shot penalty because of playing from a different spot, but explain that because the infraction notification came from an outside source and since a new round had started in that time, no wrong scorecard penalty would be assessed.

 

That part just bothers me so much. Ugh just makes me sick to my stomach.

 

So hang on....if u was in 2nd place and u found out that the person who won has broken a rule which would have caused you to win, would that be ok?

 

The rule was broken so what happened was correct

[Warrick]

The dumbest thing here, imo, is the two stroke penalty for failing to include penalty strokes on her scorecard that she didn't know she had incurred. If the Rules Committee believes she was cheating, then she should be DQ'ed. If the Rules Committee believes this was an honest mistake, then the two strokes they are assessing a day later in the middle of the round is penal enough. 6-6(d) needs to be reexamined.

 

I also question whether, in this circumstance, she truly played from the "wrong place". Here it appears there was perhaps a centimeter's difference in where she placed the ball, and the Committee thought that was enough. But I would not have faulted the Committee for looking at that tape and determining that the difference was negligible, it was not the "wrong place" in this circumstance and that no penalty should be incurred.

 

 

 

absolutely sheriff.... i take this ruling as the LPGA calling Lexi a cheater... i think they should be called out for it .. and made to address that part at once.

 

Why?

 

It is a rule. Whether or not it should be, is absolutely debatable. What is there to address, she signed an incorrect card? She shot 69, not 67, therefore 2 more.

 

I am not agreeing with the rules, just that they were enforced properly.

[golfer07840]

 

I completely understand that they were technically correct in their application. But some situations are bigger or more important than the rules. I know that's a dangerous road to go down, but sometimes 100% unanimous common sense needs to trump the rules. And if it wasn't 100% unanimous then the ones who don't think it was bad situation that needed some "out of the box thinking" need to out of the officiating game.

 

Harsh opinion I know, but I feel strongly on this one.

 

Common sense in golf? Never.

[Nessism]

Well Nessism - the LPGA already knows exactly what I think about them!

 

LPGA Contact Us page info...http://www.lpga.com/contact-us

[ExProGoingBack]

I am not a fan of the signing incorrect scorecard but in the end of Lexi was more careful marking her ball this would be moot. Having an official there would not have made a difference as it was a split second event only caught on camera. So the real lesson is always come from back in the pack to win on the last hole :)

[bladehunter]

http://www.usga.org/...contact-us.html

 

Just sent the USGA a note about the need to fix the rules.

 

1) one penalty, not two. The signing a wrong scorecard penalty was pure BS.

 

2) rules violations should be noted on the course at the time of the infraction. Third party "call in" tip offs should be disallowed unless flagrant cheating is involved.

 

 

thank you for the link... i maxed out my characters and fired it away to them !

[bladehunter]

The dumbest thing here, imo, is the two stroke penalty for failing to include penalty strokes on her scorecard that she didn't know she had incurred. If the Rules Committee believes she was cheating, then she should be DQ'ed. If the Rules Committee believes this was an honest mistake, then the two strokes they are assessing a day later in the middle of the round is penal enough. 6-6(d) needs to be reexamined.

 

I also question whether, in this circumstance, she truly played from the "wrong place". Here it appears there was perhaps a centimeter's difference in where she placed the ball, and the Committee thought that was enough. But I would not have faulted the Committee for looking at that tape and determining that the difference was negligible, it was not the "wrong place" in this circumstance and that no penalty should be incurred.

 

 

 

absolutely sheriff.... i take this ruling as the LPGA calling Lexi a cheater... i think they should be called out for it .. and made to address that part at once.

 

Why?

 

It is a rule. Whether or not it should be, is absolutely debatable. What is there to address, she signed an incorrect card? She shot 69, not 67, therefore 2 more.

 

I am not agreeing with the rules, just that they were enforced properly.

 

 

and they were according the eyes of every player that was with her... the walking ref, and the tv announcers... plus the refs in the trailer.... all of teh torunament mechanisms for our SELF POLICING game said she was good good.... BUT a call in with an axe to grind is what it took to call it ...? thats not in the rule book

[warfelg]

Just stupid. 4 shot penalty for that? If she got 1 shot penalty for that misstake, but 4? Golf really is a silly stupid game sometimes. I don't care that someone call it in. That's not the problem. The problem is the ruling. People who can't see that a 4 shot penalty is absurd are just blind. Also, what would happen if we watched ice hockey and all of the sudden the other team got a goal dismissed in the end of the game becuse someone call in on a high stick prior to a goal from the first period. No it wouldn't happen becuse ice hockey is a sport. If golf want to be a sport and not just some silly game, s*** like this needs to end.

 

Rules are rules. End of. Stop moaning

 

Rules are indeed rules but when events occur that reveal them to be ridiculous & harmful to the game maybe it's a good idea to have a bit of a moan so that they can be changed for the better? Or are we as a species just a subserviant group of walkovers who'll put up with anything without a fuss? That's now 2 majors blighted by rules infringements in 10 months, it shouldn't be the focus.

 

I hope they do fix the armchair caller problem, the coverage of golf is not like other sports and naturally those at the sharp end receive the bulk of airtime. It's not proportionate to the whole field and it should be left to tournament officals, players and caddies to deal with this stuff. Frankly anyone who calls in should be embarrassed to get involved with it.

 

This is my problem with letting people call in. So now we know that Lexi did that, but what is Ryu did something Friday that was worthy of a penalty? She wasn't near the lead on Friday so no one could spot something on her.

 

This one bothers me much much more than any other one. They responded to an email that came in 24 hours after the infraction happened. They shouldn't have nailed her with the 4 stroke IMO. That was in poor taste by the LPGA IMO. And all the LPGA had to do to make that part ok, was state that she was assessed the 2 shot penalty because of playing from a different spot, but explain that because the infraction notification came from an outside source and since a new round had started in that time, no wrong scorecard penalty would be assessed.

 

That part just bothers me so much. Ugh just makes me sick to my stomach.

 

So hang on....if u was in 2nd place and u found out that the person who won has broken a rule which would have caused you to win, would that be ok?

 

The rule was broken so what happened was correct

 

In this situation yes. Because the infraction wasn't found until long after it happened.

[Tzoid]

I just watched what Lexi did and I it was odd that she was standing off to the side marking her ball rather than behind but that could be because it was a short putt and she wanted to get it knocked in and get out of her playing competitors way or whatever. The LPGA is clearly saying they believe Lexi is a Cheat....Not simply mistakenly misplaced her ball.

 

I see the ruling as a "Can of Worms" for all tours now..... God forbid someone is asked to move their marker because it's in someones line and it's not replaced in the exact spot. s*** Storms on the horizon folks.

[chris975d]

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/contact-us.html

 

Just sent the USGA a note about the need to fix the rules.

 

1) one penalty, not two. The signing a wrong scorecard penalty was pure BS.

 

2) rules violations should be noted on the course at the time of the infraction. Third party "call in" tip offs should be disallowed unless flagrant cheating is involved.

 

My opinion...if a rules violation found after a tournament is over can't affect the outcome of said tournament (if can't..break a rule and go unnoticed and win, you win. Can't take that away from you or impose a penalty), then a rules violation found after the close of a round can't affect that round either.

 

If you can breach a rule on Sunday and not get caught until Monday (or later) and can't incur a penalty, then why can you on any other day? Inconsistent.

[I_HATE_SNOW]

My message was short but not sweet.

[Boogs2]

Lexi and Ryu had an equal chance to win the tournament on the 18th playoff hole. To say that Ryu should have duffed her tee shot so Lexi can win is quite possibly the DUMBEST thing I've ever seen/said/stated on this board. Is it unfortunate that some @sshat called in an infraction and Lexi was penalized the next day? Yes. Is it bull$hit that Lexi was assessed another 2 stroke penalty after the 3rd round because of signing an incorrect score card? Yes. Should she have been only a two stroke penalty for incorrectly marking and moving her ball? Yes. But to say that Ryu should lose on purpose is illogical and just plain stupid. She and Lexi are competitors in a tournament. Do what you can to win if presented the opportunity.

 

In the end, Lexi marked her ball wrongly intentionally or unintentionally. How her penalty was assessed is stupid and some rules do need to be changed. But to say Ryu should have lost on purpose and just plain effing stupid.

[the bishop]

Protecting the field. I get it. The LPGA protecting themselves in case it came out they were made aware of a penalty situation and chose to ignore it. I get it. But what about protecting the player in question when the rules infraction is deemed not to be deliberate as was the case here? In this case Lexi was given 6 holes to adjust to a 4 stroke penalty. That is grossly unfair IMO. It's the type of penalty/decision that affects playing strategy not to mention the emotional impact which was obvious to everyone. If the penalty situation and resulting penalty cannot be enforced before the player tees off on their next round then it should not be enforceable unless it is deemed a deliberate (cheating) infraction in which case a DQ is the appropriate penalty. What a travesty. I feel bad for both Lexi and So Yeon Ryu.

[bladehunter]

Well Nessism - the LPGA already knows exactly what I think about them!

 

LPGA Contact Us page info...http://www.lpga.com/contact-us

 

thanks again Ness.... fired away ....

[WidespreadPanic]

If no-one realized she had made a penalty until after she signed her score card, how could she sign an incorrect scorecard

This is what I don't get. There was no penalty at the time she signed her card, so how was the card incorrect?

[bladehunter]

Lexi and Ryu had an equal chance to win the tournament on the 18th playoff hole. To say that Ryu should have duffed her tee shot so Lexi can win is quite possibly the DUMBEST thing I've ever seen/said/stated on this board. Is it unfortunate that some @sshat called in an infraction and Lexi was penalized the next day? Yes. Is it bull$hit that Lexi was assessed another 2 stroke penalty after the 3rd round because of signing an incorrect score card? Yes. Should she have been only a two stroke penalty for incorrectly marking and moving her ball? Yes. But to say that Ryu should lose on purpose is illogical and just plain stupid. She and Lexi are competitors in a tournament. Do what you can to win if presented the opportunity.

 

In the end, Lexi marked her ball wrongly intentionally or unintentionally. How her penalty was assessed is stupid and some rules do need to be changed. But to say Ryu should have lost on purpose and just plain effing stupid.

 

 

i respect that opinion ...But i for one dont want to win that way.... I would actually go a step further and say that if the players felt strong enough about call ins ( i dont know if they do or not) they should threaten a strike and show a majority vote for such to get the lpga to enact a no call in rule.... In my opinion if you cant catch it at the time it isnt an issue .. , and certainly shoudlt be allowed to be kept in the pocket until sunday as to cause 2 more stroke penalty and an upset to the final round... the players could change this.. LPGA cant sell their prodict without them

[tigerstew]

Fact is if u mark the ball and don't place it where it originally was then u have broken the rule. Doesn't matter if it's 1 day, 2 day or 2 years after.

 

If I came second knowing the person who won had broken a rule I would be seething with rage

[bladehunter]

If no-one realized she had made a penalty until after she signed her score card, how could she sign an incorrect scorecard

This is what I don't get. There was no penalty at the time she signed her card, so how was the card incorrect?

 

No make no mistake..LPGA is calling her a cheater.... actions surely are louder than words

[warfelg]

If no-one realized she had made a penalty until after she signed her score card, how could she sign an incorrect scorecard

This is what I don't get. There was no penalty at the time she signed her card, so how was the card incorrect?

 

Put this to work in every day life. $200 fine for incorrectly signing their name to a credit card receipt!! :lol: