Third best player of all time?

[EntourageLife]

I'm shocked were even debating this? Passage of time works against former players.

 

Ben Hogan was revered by his peers as the G.O.A.T.

 

Nicklaus, Woods, and Hogan

[Shilgy]

PGA tour. Com. Scoring average by year. Goes back to 1980. I do confess my post was from memory.

Just looked it up. #175 is about 2.5 this year and 4.1 in 1980. We can't look it up anywhere I know of but considering it has been a trend I would bet mid 1960's would be at least 5+ and 1940's 7 or so.

Just might be why we have more winners today and fewer multiple winners. Does not matter if the reason is equipment as an equalizer. They are there with an opportunity to win.

 

This is a very interesting topic.

 

For the past 25 years;

 

- the scoring leader has been (with the exception a couple of Woods years) between 68.4 and 69.3 with no downward trend

 

- the 25th ranked player has stayed at about 70.2 to 70.4

 

- the 50th ranked player has stayed at about 70.6 to 70.8

 

- the 100th ranked player has been between 70.9 and 71.3

 

None of these are trending downward.

 

Maybe the influx of Europeans in the late 80s and early 90s added depth.

 

My conclusion based on these numbers is that depth hasn't changed for 25 years.

Where did you get these numbers? So far this year there are 186 players sub 72. In 1980 there were 60.

[ETERNAL06]

Bobby Jones is a nostalgia pick for the Majors/Augusta crowd. Hogan is an image/reputation/swing pick. Walter Hagen shouldn't be in the discussion. That leaves only one reasonable option. Mr. Sam Snead who has 82 PGA Tour wins and 7 Majors, easily beating all but Jack and Tiger.

[Strömsborg]

While Hagen, Hogan and Player got more majors and Snead more wins overall, I'd say Tom Watson. A more recent career means harder competition.

[DrRob1963]

William Ben Hogan is number 3, all time, for my money.

The hardest worker on tour, he built a swing that was second to none, winning multiple tournaments and 3 majors, before tragedy struck.

Hit by a speeding Greyhound Bus, he suffered multiple severe injuries and took 4 hours to reach hospital. Newspapers had the obituaries written, but he lived.

2 weeks later, blood clots to the lungs and the obituaries were ready again, but he survived emergency surgery and the clots.

Told he'd never walk again, he had no intention of giving up - ever.

Told he'd never golf again, 10 months later - he played. 4 more months later, he lost to Snead in a play-off at Riviera. And 2 months after that he won the 1950 US Open at Merion on legs that constantly ached & could barely carry him. His final round 1-iron into Merion's 18th is one of golf's most iconic images.

He won 6 majors after a car accident that should have killed him.

The only player to win his first and only British Open, at lethally difficult Carnoustie.

Nine Majors in all, including a career Grand Slam.

The founder of a golf club business that made some of the finest quality golf clubs of their day.

When asked if Tiger was the best ever ball striker in golf, Jack Nicklaus stated that Ben Hogan easily had that honour.

In 1965, Hogan played Snead in Shell's Wonderful World of Golf at 7000yd Houston C.C. Hogan won when he hit every fairway and every green, with host Gene Sarazen saying "That's the finest round of golf I've seen in my lifetime".

To me, not just a great golfer, a man who embodies the "Never give up" spirit, that inspires whenever life gets me down!

[Ty_Webb]

perhaps youre misunderstanding. Driver 5 iron doesnt equal 3 wood wedge

 

How else are we supposed to interpret the statement below?

 

Am i a better player today because i hit 3 wood wedge to holes i used to hit driver 5/6 iron to?

 

Pretty simple really i dont believe i am because im not doing anything different just swinging newer clubs.

 

You said you are hitting 3 wood wedge to holes you used to hit driver 5/6 iron to. Someone else pointed out that that much change was pretty extreme. You subsequently said you used to hit driver 275 and now you hit three wood that far. That would mean that your wedge now goes as far as your 5 iron from 20 years ago. Not likely. The point being that something else must be going on to explain how a hole you used to hit driver 5/6 iron to is now 3 wood wedge. That could be that you're comparing February into the wind with July downwind. Or it could be that you've improved somehow. When that was pointed out, you said you didn't mean that driver 5 iron equals 3 wood wedge. If you didn't mean that, I was curious as to what you did mean when you said you are hitting 3 wood wedge to holes that used to be driver 5/6 iron. Seeing as that is the basis of your entire point.

[mejmo]

TLDR

 

I joined the party a little late and haven't read much of the thread. However, over the multiple pages that I have read, NOBODY has mentioned the 3rd best player of all time.

 

Severiano Ballesteros

 

He dominated all over the world for the better part of two decades and sparked an entire continent to become a golfing powerhouse. He changed the game in equal proportion as did Arnold Palmer. He won over 90 times world-wide. 5 majors (with many more close calls). Dominated at match play. And, suddenly, lost his competitive edge. There is no doubt in my mind that he is a closer equal to Woods/Nicklaus than everyone except Snead/Nelson/Hogan. Based on his impact to the game, his very humble upbringing, and his uncanny panache and charisma, he belongs in the top 3.

[EntourageLife]

TLDR

 

I joined the party a little late and haven't read much of the thread. However, over the multiple pages that I have read, NOBODY has mentioned the 3rd best player of all time.

 

Severiano Ballesteros

 

He dominated all over the world for the better part of two decades and sparked an entire continent to become a golfing powerhouse. He changed the game in equal proportion as did Arnold Palmer. He won over 90 times world-wide. 5 majors (with many more close calls). Dominated at match play. And, suddenly, lost his competitive edge. There is no doubt in my mind that he is a closer equal to Woods/Nicklaus than everyone except Snead/Nelson/Hogan. Based on his impact to the game, his very humble upbringing, and his uncanny panache and charisma, he belongs in the top 3.

 

No. Hardly won on PGA Tour. Also, nobody on this list should have a timely, annoying cough...

[tatertot]

TLDR

 

I joined the party a little late and haven't read much of the thread. However, over the multiple pages that I have read, NOBODY has mentioned the 3rd best player of all time.

 

Severiano Ballesteros

 

He dominated all over the world for the better part of two decades and sparked an entire continent to become a golfing powerhouse. He changed the game in equal proportion as did Arnold Palmer. He won over 90 times world-wide. 5 majors (with many more close calls). Dominated at match play. And, suddenly, lost his competitive edge. There is no doubt in my mind that he is a closer equal to Woods/Nicklaus than everyone except Snead/Nelson/Hogan. Based on his impact to the game, his very humble upbringing, and his uncanny panache and charisma, he belongs in the top 3.

 

No. Hardly won on PGA Tour. Also, nobody on this list should have a timely, annoying cough...

 

If you ever needed change, though, Seve had a pocketful, ready at a moment's notice!

[kmac3]

This is such a difficult question when there are so many factors coming into play. Most importantly the era that each player played in. For that reason I'm going with the King for all the great players that played during his prime. He might not have as many wins or majors but his impact he had on the game was maybe 2nd ony to tiger.

[EKELLY]

But seriously, the 200th ranked player in 2005 probably had more natural talent and cultivated skill than the 30th ranked player in 1960whatever

True, but those old guys were hungry, and didn't have Top 10-itis like these guys today have......

[Shilgy]

But seriously, the 200th ranked player in 2005 probably had more natural talent and cultivated skill than the 30th ranked player in 1960whatever

True, but those old guys were hungry, and didn't have Top 10-itis like these guys today have......

Is that why Weiskopf is praised and Couples and Love not? In spite of the latter two having arguably better records?

[LeftDaddy]

Another vote for Bobby Jones.

[NVS_Pegasus]

Gotta say Hogan. I really wanted to say The Shark but everyone would grill me.

[nitram]

Sam - 3

 

Hogan - 4

Player -5

Arnie - 6

.

.

.

Phil - 23

 

1 Jack Nicklaus

2 Tiger Woods

3 Sam Snead

4 Ben Hogan

5 Arnold Palmer

6 Walter Hagen

7 Byron Nelson

8 Gary Player

9 Tom Watson

10 Phil Mickelson

11 Gene Sarazen

12 Bobby Jones

13 Lee Trevino

14 Billy Casper

15 Seve Ballesteros

16 Nick Faldo

17 Ernie Els

18 Cary Middlecoff

19 Vijay Singh

20 Greg Norman

 

I'd have to have Jimmy Demaret in there somewhere.

[rangersgoalie]

Gary Player, just read his letter about Jones and Chambers Bay.

Outlines his greatness, AND his ability to help end apartheid!!

[stickner]

Numbers say Snead, but my heart says Hogan.

 

Hogan had better stats percentage wise. He finished top 3 in 45% of his starts and won over 20% of them. Snead finished top 3 just over 30% of the time and won roughly 14% of his starts.

[stickner]

Just a few more buckets of balls by the light of a camping lantern and GolfWrx member Diece will be the only logical pick for number3.

[MarkCPA]

I think I could make a reasonable argument for four players, but in the end would end up saying the choice is Bobby Jones.

[Roadking2003]

PGA tour. Com. Scoring average by year. Goes back to 1980. I do confess my post was from memory.

Just looked it up. #175 is about 2.5 this year and 4.1 in 1980. We can't look it up anywhere I know of but considering it has been a trend I would bet mid 1960's would be at least 5+ and 1940's 7 or so.

Just might be why we have more winners today and fewer multiple winners. Does not matter if the reason is equipment as an equalizer. They are there with an opportunity to win.

 

This is a very interesting topic.

 

For the past 25 years;

 

- the scoring leader has been (with the exception a couple of Woods years) between 68.4 and 69.3 with no downward trend

 

- the 25th ranked player has stayed at about 70.2 to 70.4

 

- the 50th ranked player has stayed at about 70.6 to 70.8

 

- the 100th ranked player has been between 70.9 and 71.3

 

None of these are trending downward.

 

Maybe the influx of Europeans in the late 80s and early 90s added depth.

 

My conclusion based on these numbers is that depth hasn't changed for 25 years.

Where did you get these numbers? So far this year there are 186 players sub 72. In 1980 there were 60.

 

My numbers are all from PGATOUR.COM. I didn't look up every year. Here is the data.

[Roadking2003]

TLDR

 

I joined the party a little late and haven't read much of the thread. However, over the multiple pages that I have read, NOBODY has mentioned the 3rd best player of all time.

 

Severiano Ballesteros

 

He dominated all over the world for the better part of two decades and sparked an entire continent to become a golfing powerhouse. He changed the game in equal proportion as did Arnold Palmer. He won over 90 times world-wide. 5 majors (with many more close calls). Dominated at match play. And, suddenly, lost his competitive edge. There is no doubt in my mind that he is a closer equal to Woods/Nicklaus than everyone except Snead/Nelson/Hogan. Based on his impact to the game, his very humble upbringing, and his uncanny panache and charisma, he belongs in the top 3.

 

I'm not buying it. He never dominated all over the world. He had five majors and four other PGA Tour wins. His major win rate was 5.7% which is nothing special.

 

Yes, he did have a tremendous positive impact on the game in Europe, but he's not even close to the 3rd best player.

[Joe85]

Tiger isn't even top 3 all time, by the way. That's reserved for Jones, Jack and Hogan.

[cdnglf]

Tiger isn't even top 3 all time, by the way. That's reserved for Jones, Jack and Hogan.

 

Hogan + Jones < Tiger

[Shilgy]

PGA tour. Com. Scoring average by year. Goes back to 1980. I do confess my post was from memory.

Just looked it up. #175 is about 2.5 this year and 4.1 in 1980. We can't look it up anywhere I know of but considering it has been a trend I would bet mid 1960's would be at least 5+ and 1940's 7 or so.

Just might be why we have more winners today and fewer multiple winners. Does not matter if the reason is equipment as an equalizer. They are there with an opportunity to win.

 

This is a very interesting topic.

 

For the past 25 years;

 

- the scoring leader has been (with the exception a couple of Woods years) between 68.4 and 69.3 with no downward trend

 

- the 25th ranked player has stayed at about 70.2 to 70.4

 

- the 50th ranked player has stayed at about 70.6 to 70.8

 

- the 100th ranked player has been between 70.9 and 71.3

 

None of these are trending downward.

 

Maybe the influx of Europeans in the late 80s and early 90s added depth.

 

My conclusion based on these numbers is that depth hasn't changed for 25 years.

Where did you get these numbers? So far this year there are 186 players sub 72. In 1980 there were 60.

 

My numbers are all from PGATOUR.COM. I didn't look up every year. Here is the data.

Got ya, I went back to 1980 for some of the disconnect. I see it a lot different than you do though. Number 100 is a full stroke, per round, closer to number one. That's a big difference. Four strokes per event.

[Roadking2003]

PGA tour. Com. Scoring average by year. Goes back to 1980. I do confess my post was from memory.

Just looked it up. #175 is about 2.5 this year and 4.1 in 1980. We can't look it up anywhere I know of but considering it has been a trend I would bet mid 1960's would be at least 5+ and 1940's 7 or so.

Just might be why we have more winners today and fewer multiple winners. Does not matter if the reason is equipment as an equalizer. They are there with an opportunity to win.

 

This is a very interesting topic.

 

For the past 25 years;

 

- the scoring leader has been (with the exception a couple of Woods years) between 68.4 and 69.3 with no downward trend

 

- the 25th ranked player has stayed at about 70.2 to 70.4

 

- the 50th ranked player has stayed at about 70.6 to 70.8

 

- the 100th ranked player has been between 70.9 and 71.3

 

None of these are trending downward.

 

Maybe the influx of Europeans in the late 80s and early 90s added depth.

 

My conclusion based on these numbers is that depth hasn't changed for 25 years.

Where did you get these numbers? So far this year there are 186 players sub 72. In 1980 there were 60.

 

My numbers are all from PGATOUR.COM. I didn't look up every year. Here is the data.

Got ya, I went back to 1980 for some of the disconnect. I see it a lot different than you do though. Number 100 is a full stroke, per round, closer to number one. That's a big difference. Four strokes per event.

 

My numbers only went back 25 years to 1992. So they are not different from yours, they just started 12 years later than yours. I agree that the trend from 1980 to 1992 was downward by a large amount. But from 1992 to today, not so much. For example, #100 in 1992 was 71.306 and 25 years later was 71.045. Not a lot of change over the last 25 years.

 

I don't think you see it different; you are just using a longer timeframe.

[Roadking2003]

Shilgy, one other observation. The gap between #1 and #100 was 1.931 strokes in 1992, 2.098 strokes in 2015, and 1.873 strokes in 2016. Interesting that it's so close 25 years later.

[cdnglf]

Shilgy, one other observation. The gap between #1 and #100 was 1.931 strokes in 1992, 2.098 strokes in 2015, and 1.873 strokes in 2016. Interesting that it's so close 25 years later.

 

I think its more useful to look at the gap between #25 and #100. #1 has some pretty serious outliers (e.g. Tiger in 2000, when he was 3.5 ahead of #100!).

 

The gap between #25 and #100 is definitely narrowing... from 0.8-1.0 in the early 90s to 0.7-0.8 today. I think that's significant.

[Ty_Webb]

Shilgy, one other observation. The gap between #1 and #100 was 1.931 strokes in 1992, 2.098 strokes in 2015, and 1.873 strokes in 2016. Interesting that it's so close 25 years later.

 

#1 to #100 is a little more fluid because #1 is a very small sample. Better to look at #25 to #100 I would say. That's a lot more consistent.

 

1992 was 0.848

1993 was 0.967

1994 was 1.074

1995 was 0.990

2000 was 0.957

2007 was 0.869

2014 was 0.749

2015 was 0.755

2016 was 0.726

 

That would tend to suggest that things have narrowed some since the early-mid 90s.

 

For reference, it was 0.92 in 1980.

[Ty_Webb]

Actually, if we look at actual scoring average, rather than adjusted scoring average, this happens. Each number is the difference between 25 and 100:

 

1980 0.92

1985 0.84

1990 0.80

1995 0.78

2000 0.77

2005 0.58

2010 0.54

2015 0.57

2016 0.58

 

I would call that a pretty solid trend at least through the mid-00s.

 

In 1980, the person who was 0.57 shots behind 25th place was in 61st, so there were around twice as many people within 0.57 shots of the 25th player in 2015 as there were in 1980.

[cdnglf]

Shilgy, one other observation. The gap between #1 and #100 was 1.931 strokes in 1992, 2.098 strokes in 2015, and 1.873 strokes in 2016. Interesting that it's so close 25 years later.

 

#1 to #100 is a little more fluid because #1 is a very small sample. Better to look at #25 to #100 I would say. That's a lot more consistent.

 

1992 was 0.848

1993 was 0.967

1994 was 1.074

1995 was 0.990

2000 was 0.957

2007 was 0.869

2014 was 0.749

2015 was 0.755

2016 was 0.726

 

That would tend to suggest that things have narrowed some since the early-mid 90s.

 

For reference, it was 0.92 in 1980.

 

This is a better version of what I said. Very interesting to see how much the gap has narrowed in just the past ten years - I would not have expected to see that.