Is "Golf Science" Based on Fake Dynamics?

[WILDTHING]

https://www.gearsspo...ll-metrics/ Grip roll and handle twist velocity are not the same thing.

 

Yes thanks , I think I'm comparing 'apples ' and 'pears'. From what I've found , the Gears metrics are defined below:

 

1. Grip Roll - Grip rotation is an angular measurement that measures the rotation of the shaft between the top of the backswing and impact.

 

2. Grip Roll Rate - ??? I can't find the definition for Grip Roll Rate but it seems obvious that its the rate of change of angular rotation of the shaft between the top of the backswing and impact.

 

3.Closure Rate - is a measure of the rotation of the club face as it approaches the impact point. This measurement is calculated relative to the club’s path.

Specifically, an angle is measured between the face of the club and the path of the club as shown. Closure Rate is the rate of change of this angle measurement (in degrees/second) of the club’s face relative to the club’s path.

 

4.Handle Twist Velocity - is an angular measurement that measures the change in rotation of the shaft relative to the rotation of the club head through the swing.

Note: This metrics only appears in the club graphs pane, and only when using full body data due to the nature of the calculation.

 

So if Phil Cheetham is using the above definition for HTV in his dissertation , then my comparison showing apparent contradiction between Phil Cheetham's dissertation and Mike Granato's video is wrong.

 

But I still don't understand why there should be a 4:1 and 5:1 ratio between 'Grip Roll Rate' vs 'Clubhead Closure Rate' . If that was the case then the back of the lead wrist in those videos would be facing more towards the target line while the clubface almost square at impact. Can the shaft twist characteristics and clubhead MOI account for such a variance?

 

And why did the 'Clubhead Closure Rate' reduce while the 'Grip Roll Rate' increase into impact? Could that be the phenomenon where the shaft starts behaving like a piece of string at high speeds? That whatever 'twisting' one does at the grip will no longer apply to the clubhead which will be acting like a free moving body in space? That the clubhead is closing through inertia but not at the same rate as when there was some rigidity in the shaft applying some torque?

[WILDTHING]

https://www.gearsspo...ll-metrics/ Grip roll and handle twist velocity are not the same thing.

 

Actually 'Handle Twist Velocity' (as defined by Phil Cheetham in his dissertation) is the same as Grip Roll Rate . HTV in Gears defines it completely differently.

[oikos1]

I suppose it's good you're able to publicly sort these things out with yourself.

[PreppySlapCut]

Do these Mike Austin guys just go to a seminar near an airport or something?

[mudge]

Do these Mike Austin guys just go to a seminar near an airport or something?

 

What are you talking about?

[glk]

https://www.gearsspo...ll-metrics/ Grip roll and handle twist velocity are not the same thing.

 

Actually 'Handle Twist Velocity' (as defined by Phil Cheetham in his dissertation) is the same as Grip Roll Rate . HTV in Gears defines it completely differently.

So you believe that ENSO and AMM3D define HTV one way and Gear defines it as grip roll. Yet Gears also includes a HTV measurement which is exactly what then?

[MK7Golf21]

Wasn’t Como Tigers coach for a while? If Tiger trusted him, WTF are we to argue? Lol

 

He also dropped him like a sack of potato’s

[WILDTHING]

https://www.gearsspo...ll-metrics/ Grip roll and handle twist velocity are not the same thing.

 

Actually 'Handle Twist Velocity' (as defined by Phil Cheetham in his dissertation) is the same as Grip Roll Rate . HTV in Gears defines it completely differently.

So you believe that ENSO and AMM3D define HTV one way and Gear defines it as grip roll. Yet Gears also includes a HTV measurement which is exactly what then?

 

Here is Phil Cheethams definition of HTV in his dissertation:

 

HTV is the angular velocity of the club handle around its long axis. The AMM3D system computes this velocity by having a sensor secured to the golf club immediately below the grip on the shaft of the club. Points are digitized on the shaft and clubhead to produce a new local coordinate system with origin in the middle of the handle at the mid-hands level and with axes along the shaft, and in line with the heel of the clubhead. A fixed transformation matrix is created to compute this local coordinate system with respect to the sensor coordinate system. The origin and unit vectors of this coordinate system are stored for every sample during the swing. The local angular velocity is then calculated by first finding the global angular velocity vector of the handle reference frame with respect to the transmitter and then resolving this into the local coordinate system of the handle. HTV is the component of the local angular velocity vector of the handle around its long axis."

 

Here is Gears definition of HTV:

 

Handle Twist Velocity - is an angular measurement that measures the change in rotation of the shaft relative to the rotation of the club head through the swing.

 

Confusing!

[WILDTHING]

I suppose it's good you're able to publicly sort these things out with yourself.

 

No , I haven't been able to find answers to the questions I've posed yet . Hoping other golfwrx's out there know the answers.

[jut111]

I suppose it's good you're able to publicly sort these things out with yourself.

 

No , I haven't been able to find answers to the questions I've posed yet . Hoping other golfwrx's out there know the answers.

 

Just curious. Do you hope/expect to improve if you figure this out?

[WILDTHING]

I suppose it's good you're able to publicly sort these things out with yourself.

 

No , I haven't been able to find answers to the questions I've posed yet . Hoping other golfwrx's out there know the answers.

 

Just curious. Do you hope/expect to improve if you figure this out?

 

Easy answer, I don't because I use Shawn Clement's philosophy, perpetual motion drill, swinging in balance and without strain , throwing the clubface to the target . Although sometimes I do experiment with various techniques for fun.

 

This is just academic stuff I am interested in (a hobby) and when I find something that is confusing , I'd like to know the answers and that means asking anyone who might know or may have an alternative view.

[oikos1]

I suppose it's good you're able to publicly sort these things out with yourself.

 

No , I haven't been able to find answers to the questions I've posed yet . Hoping other golfwrx's out there know the answers.

 

Just curious. Do you hope/expect to improve if you figure this out?

 

Easy answer, I don't because I use Shawn Clement's philosophy, perpetual motion drill, swinging in balance and without strain , throwing the clubface to the target . Although sometimes I do experiment with various techniques for fun.

 

This is just academic stuff I am interested in (a hobby) and when I find something that is confusing , I'd like to know the answers and that means asking anyone who might know or may have an alternative view.

It doesn't seem that you want an alternative view because you have two right in front of you. Why not just go to the source?

[Silky]

I suppose it's good you're able to publicly sort these things out with yourself.

 

No , I haven't been able to find answers to the questions I've posed yet . Hoping other golfwrx's out there know the answers.

 

Just curious. Do you hope/expect to improve if you figure this out?

 

Easy answer, I don't because I use Shawn Clement's philosophy, perpetual motion drill, swinging in balance and without strain , throwing the clubface to the target . Although sometimes I do experiment with various techniques for fun.

 

This is just academic stuff I am interested in (a hobby) and when I find something that is confusing , I'd like to know the answers and that means asking anyone who might know or may have an alternative view.

 

Me too. (Not #metoo)

[northgolf]

Wasn't Como Tigers coach for a while? If Tiger trusted him, WTF are we to argue? Lol

 

He also dropped him like a sack of potato's

 

I would argue he limped away and had back surgery to allow him to forget.

[WILDTHING]

I suppose it's good you're able to publicly sort these things out with yourself.

 

No , I haven't been able to find answers to the questions I've posed yet . Hoping other golfwrx's out there know the answers.

 

Just curious. Do you hope/expect to improve if you figure this out?

 

Easy answer, I don't because I use Shawn Clement's philosophy, perpetual motion drill, swinging in balance and without strain , throwing the clubface to the target . Although sometimes I do experiment with various techniques for fun.

 

This is just academic stuff I am interested in (a hobby) and when I find something that is confusing , I'd like to know the answers and that means asking anyone who might know or may have an alternative view.

It doesn't seem that you want an alternative view because you have two right in front of you. Why not just go to the source?

 

Not sure I understand what you are talking about (do you?).

 

Here are the questions again

 

With regards the source (ie . Athletic Motion Golf) , I have asked the question several days ago but they have not replied (yet). In the meantime , I have asked a respected scientist who is very knowledgeable with regards club/shaft technology to check out Gears data measurements in the videos.

 

Further, it seems that HTV defined in Gears is not the same as Phil Cheetham's definition . Grill Roll Rate in Gears is equivalent to Phil Cheetham's HTV definition so my questions below still stand.

 

-----------------------

 

Ref: Mike Granato Video (see earlier post).

 

He shows 2 golfers doing active 'grip roll ' torques (ie. motorcyle move?) during the downswing but can anyone explain why there is such a variance between 'grip roll rate' versus 'Club Closure Rate' especially at impact?

 

Golfer 1 at impact has 'Grip Roll Rate' = 1001.88 degrees /sec , 'Club Closure Rate' = -258.87 degrees/sec : This almost 4:1 ratio .

 

Golfer 2 at impact has 'Grip Roll Rate' = 1733.94 degrees/sec, 'Club Closure Rate' = -359.62 degrees /sec : This is approx 5:1 ratio

 

Can this percentage difference between 'Grip Roll Rate' and 'Club Closure Rate' be attributed to the characteristics of the club (shaft twist and Moment of Inertia)?

 

Further why does the 'Club Closure Rate' reduce near impact for both golfers while the 'Grip Roll Rate' increases to a maximum?

 

 

PS. Athletic Motion Golf explained in the video that it was the club characteristics (torsion- inertia) that explained the 4:1 , 5:1 differences. From what I've read about shaft characteristics , that seems doubtful (see Gears video below showing Rickie Fowler and Jonas Blixt 'grip roll ' and 'Clubhead Closure' readings at impact where ratio is more 2:1 which seems in the right ball park). Also , their 'clubface closure' doesn't reduce into impact like the golfers in Mike Granato's video (while grip roll increases to a maximum).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOY0xgZP6R0

[WILDTHING]

Can the physics of clubhead speed in the golf downswing be simplified as per below?

 

1. First stage : The start of the downswing can be rotary (ie. pivot induced motion) with all the folded lever angles intact . This creates large initial club COG speed until about club parallel (P6).

 

2. Second Stage (P6- P6.5): Parametric acceleration is used to increase clubhead speed even further (the physics of parametric acceleration is imho equivalent to the 'Moment of Force in Sasho Mackenzie's video below from 11:30 -12.01)

 

https://vimeo.com/158856998

 

3. Third Stage (P6.5-P7): Just allow your body to react and counter the increased inertia of the COG of the clubhead to keep it from flying off at a tangent (ie. Centripetal force via the lead arm). Trying to increase parametric acceleration when clubhead is closer to ball would require, imho, superior timing skills.

[bladehunter]

ANYONE else read his thread , head start to hurt , and now wonder how any living person could play golf with this crap in their head ?

 

I’ve built cars that have aero to reach 180-200 mph that weren’t mapped this analy.

 

 

I dont mean that as negative as it sounds. I just mean that hoe on earth can all that rolling around be a positive to actually scoring on the course ?

[ebrasmus21]

ANYONE else read his thread , head start to hurt , and now wonder how any living person could play golf with this crap in their head ?

 

I've built cars that have aero to reach 180-200 mph that weren't mapped this analy.

 

 

I dont mean that as negative as it sounds. I just mean that hoe on earth can all that rolling around be a positive to actually scoring on the course ?

 

I haven't looked at this thread in a while but it is one of the most crazy complicated that I've seen. If Bryson visits this site surely this is one of his favorite threads to follow.

[Stuart_G]

I dont mean that as negative as it sounds. I just mean that hoe on earth can all that rolling around be a positive to actually scoring on the course ?

 

it all comes down to what generates confidence in the swing. Different people need different stimulus and through processes to accomplish that. And it doesn't even matter how "correct" or accurate that stimulus might be with respect to the real world. All that matters is whether or not it works.

 

Don't take this the wrong way - because the answer has no reflection on an individuals capability to play this game at a high level. But If it makes your head hurt, then you are someone who probably shouldn't even be reading it much less thinking about it on the course. And even if one is thinking about it in practice, that doesn't mean anyone is thinking about it on the course. Bryson is one extreme, DJ is probably close to the other extreme. Everyone has to find out what works for them.

[bladehunter]

I dont mean that as negative as it sounds. I just mean that hoe on earth can all that rolling around be a positive to actually scoring on the course ?

 

it all comes down to what generates confidence in the swing. Different people need different stimulus and through processes to accomplish that. And it doesn't even matter how "correct" or accurate that stimulus might be with respect to the real world. All that matters is whether or not it works.

 

Don't take this the wrong way - because the answer has no reflection on an individuals capability to play this game at a high level. But If it makes your head hurt, then you are someone who probably shouldn't even be reading it much less thinking about it on the course. And even if one is thinking about it in practice, that doesn't mean anyone is thinking about it on the course. Bryson is one extreme, DJ is probably close to the other extreme. Everyone has to find out what works for them.

 

Makes sense I suppose.

 

Just a curiosity to me that some guys like to think in these terms. My thought in a swing is extension in the takeaway, left eye on the ball. That’s it. Lol. Ball flight is the only thing that matters. Literally.

 

Would be lke me taking 10lbs off the left front of a chassis and adding it to the left rear and having the car lose traction. Then arguing that it “ should gain” traction . Why argue it ? The result is the only thing that matters. You can get in all the correct positions you want to. But where did you hit it ?

[Stuart_G]

Just a curiosity to me that some guys like to think in these terms. My thought in a swing is extension in the takeaway, left eye on the ball. That's it. Lol. Ball flight is the only thing that matters. Literally.

 

Just because they might think about it during the process of changing their swing, doesn't necessarily mean they still have all those thoughts going through their head when it comes time to hit a ball. Figuring out what needs to change and why is just the first step in a long process (for most).

[Ri_Redneck]

I kinda find this stuff humorous because the wrist roll is the result of swinging the club, not something that is being consciously done TO SWING THE CLUB.

 

In other words, the club is rolling my wrists, not me.

 

BT

[WILDTHING]

I kinda find this stuff humorous because the wrist roll is the result of swinging the club, not something that is being consciously done TO SWING THE CLUB.

 

In other words, the club is rolling my wrists, not me.

 

BT

 

If you are referring to the 'Ryke Effect' , you still have to somehow create that 'impulse force' to move the clubshaft off a double-pendulum plane before you reach the singularity (max ulnar deviation of lead wrist). That creates a situation where inertial forces help move the clubshaft/clubhead in a conical pendulum path assisting the rolling of your lead forearm.

 

Kevin Ryan is still writing his book and hasn't fully explained the biomechanics involved, so its still just an opinion until he's provided research evidence that can be analysed by the golf scientists/theorists out there. From a few reply snippets he's given me, he seems to be pointing to the actions of the rear arm as providing that impulse force.

 

When I swing/throw a golf club to a target I'm not using mechanical thoughts about driven double pendulums , parametric acceleration ,Ryke effect , etc, or using internal focus cues on body movements. But I think understanding the kinetics/biomechanics being used in the golf swing to create clubhead speed is going to provide me with a better understanding of 'what not to do'.

 

For example, if someone has an inaccurate perception about what creates clubhead speed, they might (imho) end up ingraining inefficient/poor actions. Example could be someone who thinks more 'connected body /club' (ie. increased mass) impacting the ball will create more ball speed . If they thought that way , they might be trying to throw their whole body backwards and forwards to create more 'mass' behind the clubhead into impact. Sometimes wrong perceptions about 'what' is happening in the golf swing can be the root cause of inefficient actions.