Backstopping needs to be stopped

[gioguy21]

the best argument i've seen to the backstopping is this -- if they're so good to intentionally hit a ball on the green, why not just aim for the hole and dunk it?

 

who said they are trying to hit the ball? maybe they are trying to hole the shot but using the ball as insurance if they are slightly offline. pretty simple concept i would think. imagine playing in a foursome and have all three other players leave their balls 2 feet behind the hole while you hit your short sided downhill chip. you don't think thats a slight advantage?

it is a simple concept. it's an oddity and not the norm, it's within the rules, move on.

 

if they don't mark, they don't mark. it's not my duty to make them mark.

 

 

 

*EDIT* 4,000th post!

[MrJones]

it is a simple concept. it's an oddity and not the norm, it's within the rules, move on.

 

if they don't mark, they don't mark. it's not my duty to make them mark.

 

I think this and the inability to prove intent is the reason there is no rule.

[bscinstnct]

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

 

Agree. Plus, golf can get boring, why eliminate something cool that could happen? How many times a year does it happen?

[CallawayLefty]

Ok all you backstoppers out there...what's the distance then? If a player drives the green on a par 4, do they have to run up and mark before all the other players hit? Do we just wait on each approach shot for each player to go up and mark? Or do we use some arbitrary cut off like "inside of 50 yards." How do we determine 50 yards? Is it middle of the green? Lasered to the pin? But not everyone carries lasers and pro tournaments don't even allow them. What if you can't see it because the green is blind but someone in the group in front of you saw it and doesn't say anything until the scorers tent? Is there then an obligation to wait for the group behind you every time you see this action and tell them?

 

This is just stupid. I've been playing golf for about 25 years and have seen a ball hit another ball fewer than 10 times I would guess. Honestly, I really can't think of specific instance off the top of my head, but at least generally recall it's something I've seen before. Who cares. Move on with your life. If you're really worked up about "backstopping" you should really reevaluate your priorities in life.

[knock it close]

22-1

 

 

Protect the field

[cvhookem63]

22-1

 

 

Protect the field

 

22-1. Ball Assisting Play

 

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:

 

a.

Lift the ball if it is his ball; or

 

b.

Have any other ball lifted.

 

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).

 

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

 

In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified.

 

Note: When another ball is in motion, a ball that might influence the movement of the ball in motion must not be lifted.

[TreyWingbat]

The new proposed rule 544, section 6, subsection 2a, will state that:

 

"Any player within 48.7721 yards of their shot must mark their ball in order to prevent backstopping", but notwithstanding,

 

subsection 2b will be "in effect if the slope of the green is greater than 5 percent and the windspeed is greater than 17.3795 knots, increasing the marking radius to 77.2813 yards".

[deadsolid...shank]

Ok all you backstoppers out there...what's the distance then? If a player drives the green on a par 4, do they have to run up and mark before all the other players hit? Do we just wait on each approach shot for each player to go up and mark? Or do we use some arbitrary cut off like "inside of 50 yards." How do we determine 50 yards? Is it middle of the green? Lasered to the pin? But not everyone carries lasers and pro tournaments don't even allow them. What if you can't see it because the green is blind but someone in the group in front of you saw it and doesn't say anything until the scorers tent? Is there then an obligation to wait for the group behind you every time you see this action and tell them?

 

This is just stupid. I've been playing golf for about 25 years and have seen a ball hit another ball fewer than 10 times I would guess. Honestly, I really can't think of specific instance off the top of my head, but at least generally recall it's something I've seen before. Who cares. Move on with your life. If you're really worked up about "backstopping" you should really reevaluate your priorities in life.

 

Good luck getting an answer. I've asked three times. RangersGoalie (who has been there so I respect his opinion on it) even admits that it's tough to regulate.

[CallawayLefty]

The new proposed rule 544, section 6, subsection 2a, will state that:

 

"Any player within 48.7721 yards of their shot must mark their ball in order to prevent backstopping", but notwithstanding,

 

subsection 2b will be "in effect if the slope of the green is greater than 5 percent and the windspeed is greater than 17.3795 knots, increasing the marking radius to 77.2813 yards".

 

Probably not that far off what many of the "backstopping" crew would like to see in the rule book. Interestingly, I'll bet there is strong correlation between "backstoppers" and the "tee it forward"/pace of play crowd. They'd have everyone play 5,000 yard courses with 15" holes, but insist that everyone spent all day running a half marathon to mark balls from 200 yards.

 

Ok all you backstoppers out there...what's the distance then? If a player drives the green on a par 4, do they have to run up and mark before all the other players hit? Do we just wait on each approach shot for each player to go up and mark? Or do we use some arbitrary cut off like "inside of 50 yards." How do we determine 50 yards? Is it middle of the green? Lasered to the pin? But not everyone carries lasers and pro tournaments don't even allow them. What if you can't see it because the green is blind but someone in the group in front of you saw it and doesn't say anything until the scorers tent? Is there then an obligation to wait for the group behind you every time you see this action and tell them?

 

This is just stupid. I've been playing golf for about 25 years and have seen a ball hit another ball fewer than 10 times I would guess. Honestly, I really can't think of specific instance off the top of my head, but at least generally recall it's something I've seen before. Who cares. Move on with your life. If you're really worked up about "backstopping" you should really reevaluate your priorities in life.

 

Good luck getting an answer. I've asked three times. RangersGoalie (who has been there so I respect his opinion on it) even admits that it's tough to regulate.

 

I saw you kept asking. And of course no one is answering.

[ClintDagger]

I was taught in college to "protect the field" when you can. Even good college players can put the ball around the pin from most lies around the green. No one is advocating marking the ball from drives or approach shots. But once everyone is in the vicinity of the green, everyone would usually mark, especially for shots that were just a few feet from the pin. Now college players have to carry their own bags, wipe down their own clubs, rake their own bunkers. Etcetera. So that wasn't necessarily the first priority if pace of play is a factor. Tour guys have caddies and I would think would be in an even better position to mark when greenside shots are being played. To me it's about using common sense and should something happen, it's not the end of the world. But I think people would want to mark whenever they within reason can.

[CallawayLefty]

I was taught in college to "protect the field" when you can. Even good college players can put the ball around the pin from most lies around the green. No one is advocating marking the ball from drives or approach shots. But once everyone is in the vicinity of the green, everyone would usually mark, especially for shots that were just a few feet from the pin. Now college players have to carry their own bags, wipe down their own clubs, rake their own bunkers. Etcetera. So that wasn't necessarily the first priority if pace of play is a factor. Tour guys have caddies and I would think would be in an even better position to mark when greenside shots are being played. To me it's about using common sense and should something happen, it's not the end of the world. But I think people would want to mark whenever they within reason can.

 

A player lost his PGA card recently because a leaf hit his ball while it was moving. Perhaps we should apply common sense to other areas of the rule book before worrying too much about this one? Especially when common sense dictates that a player would be helped by that ball sitting on the green about 0.01% of the time.

[deadsolid...shank]

I was taught in college to "protect the field" when you can. Even good college players can put the ball around the pin from most lies around the green. No one is advocating marking the ball from drives or approach shots. But once everyone is in the vicinity of the green, everyone would usually mark, especially for shots that were just a few feet from the pin. Now college players have to carry their own bags, wipe down their own clubs, rake their own bunkers. Etcetera. So that wasn't necessarily the first priority if pace of play is a factor. Tour guys have caddies and I would think would be in an even better position to mark when greenside shots are being played. To me it's about using common sense and should something happen, it's not the end of the world. But I think people would want to mark whenever they within reason can.

 

That makes perfect sense and is completely reasonable. But it still boils down to how do you regulate when it has to be marked?

 

Even your statement "most lies around the green" is way to ambiguous to use it in a rule.

[cvhookem63]

Math Question: The European Tour is implementing a shot clock this year. Jason Kokrak chips his ball onto the green from 60 yards away. The next player has 40 seconds to hit their shot. Tony Finau is waiting in the greenside bunker to take his shot. Jason Kokrak pats the divot down with his wedge, sticks his wedge back in his bag, takes his glove off, gets handed his putter, and strolls up to the green to mark his ball. How many seconds does Tony Finau now have to dig in and hit his bunker shot from a plugged lie without being warned or given a 1 stroke penalty?

[Atrayn]

When "rules" allow this type of question to be asked, it's a bad rule.

Just like whether McCarron and Langer are "cheating" by anchoring.

 

Players will take every advantage they can get if there is wiggle room. You cannot blame the players.

 

Back in the 90's a manufacturing VP came to our plant and challenged the supervisors. He said, "the first line to achieve 95% first pass yield over 3 months could choose a restaurant and the company would pay for the employees and significant others". What he didn't know was that someone in Test Engineering set all the test platforms with a 5 min window. If you repaired the bad part within 5 min, it wouldn't count against the FPY. I have no idea why they did this because it isn't true FPY

 

However, My team took advantage of this and we set up a process that could repair easy defects within that window.

 

It was great taking a group of hourly employees on charter buses to the 95th floor of the John Hancock building in downtown Chicago!

A fellow supervisor complained afterward, and there was this big investigation into "alleged" cheating.

What happened? They took out the 5 min window.

[OldTomMorris]

Math Question: The European Tour is implementing a shot clock this year. Jason Kokrak chips his ball onto the green from 60 yards away. The next player has 40 seconds to hit their shot. Tony Finau is waiting in the greenside bunker to take his shot. Jason Kokrak pats the divot down with his wedge, sticks his wedge back in his bag, takes his glove off, gets handed his putter, and strolls up to the green to mark his ball. How many seconds does Tony Finau now have to dig in and hit his bunker shot from a plugged lie without being warned or given a 1 stroke penalty?

 

Finau can mark the ball though. I've done this and played in strokeplay when its been done.

[Llortamaisey]

When "rules" allow this type of question to be asked, it's a bad rule.

Just like whether McCarron and Langer are "cheating" by anchoring.

 

Players will take every advantage they can get if there is wiggle room. You cannot blame the players.

 

Back in the 90's a manufacturing VP came to our plant and challenged the supervisors. He said, "the first line to achieve 95% first pass yield over 3 months could choose a restaurant and the company would pay for the employees and significant others". What he didn't know was that someone in Test Engineering set all the test platforms with a 5 min window. If you repaired the bad part within 5 min, it wouldn't count against the FPY. I have no idea why they did this because it isn't true FPY

 

However, My team took advantage of this and we set up a process that could repair easy defects within that window.

 

It was great taking a group of hourly employees on charter buses to the 95th floor of the John Hancock building in downtown Chicago!

A fellow supervisor complained afterward, and there was this big investigation into "alleged" cheating.

What happened? They took out the 5 min window.

 

The old 5 minute window trick. Gets’em every time.

[snizzle]

On the PGA tour one shot over the course of the season can be the difference between being the 125th guy in the Fedex playoffs and losing your card. Zac Blair lost his card last season over one fedex point. Obviously Finau wasn't aiming at Kokrak's ball but it did provide extra protection, an additional small backstop for Finau. So now Finau ends up solo 2nd, worth 300 Fedex points, when he clearly could've lost a few shots on that hole. Guys like Phil now have to settle for a T3 instead of a T2. Other web guys like Hadley, Delaet and Duncan who need every dollar/fedex point they can get very possibly had to settle for a lower finish. Yes it seems small but when one shot can have such a huge impact on the Fedex rankings any unfair advantage can be a huge deal.

 

If they are going to severely penalize a ball hitting a leaf like they did to Southgate than every small rule should be enforced.

[cvhookem63]

Math Question: The European Tour is implementing a shot clock this year. Jason Kokrak chips his ball onto the green from 60 yards away. The next player has 40 seconds to hit their shot. Tony Finau is waiting in the greenside bunker to take his shot. Jason Kokrak pats the divot down with his wedge, sticks his wedge back in his bag, takes his glove off, gets handed his putter, and strolls up to the green to mark his ball. How many seconds does Tony Finau now have to dig in and hit his bunker shot from a plugged lie without being warned or given a 1 stroke penalty?

 

Finau can mark the ball though. I've done this and played in strokeplay when its been done.

 

He could, but why would he?

 

The rule states: In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified.

 

Is Finau breaking the rules by leaving the other player's ball behind the hole? There was no agreement between he and his playing partner to leave the ball there to assist his shot. His playing partner is just slow and/or too far away to get their in time to mark it before he is ready to hit.

[Atrayn]

When "rules" allow this type of question to be asked, it's a bad rule.

Just like whether McCarron and Langer are "cheating" by anchoring.

 

Players will take every advantage they can get if there is wiggle room. You cannot blame the players.

 

Back in the 90's a manufacturing VP came to our plant and challenged the supervisors. He said, "the first line to achieve 95% first pass yield over 3 months could choose a restaurant and the company would pay for the employees and significant others". What he didn't know was that someone in Test Engineering set all the test platforms with a 5 min window. If you repaired the bad part within 5 min, it wouldn't count against the FPY. I have no idea why they did this because it isn't true FPY

 

However, My team took advantage of this and we set up a process that could repair easy defects within that window.

 

It was great taking a group of hourly employees on charter buses to the 95th floor of the John Hancock building in downtown Chicago!

A fellow supervisor complained afterward, and there was this big investigation into "alleged" cheating.

What happened? They took out the 5 min window.

 

The old 5 minute window trick. Gets’em every time.

 

Well, I'm just glad I wasn't in test engineering at the time. I just threw out the 95th floor idea because it sounded good! I never thought they would actually do it!

[OldTomMorris]

Players will take every advantage they can get if there is wiggle room. You cannot blame the players.

 

This thing known as "backstopping" is definitely a recent thing though. In the past every effort was made to avoid the possibility of it happening, that effort now seems to be missing in some quarters.

 

Some might say its the slow erosion of integrity is permeating into the game of golf.

[moonshine]

Such a non issue. Literally dumber than talking about what pants Ian poulter is wearihg .... no way on the planet anyone is hitting a ball on the green on purpose. Why not just hole it if this is so ?

 

I don't think this issue is that hard to understand. I don't believe anyone is actually aiming for the ball, but it's mere presence gives the player an advantage by acting as a potential, additional backstop.

I have been playing golf many years and been on this site for many years. If it is such a big deal why is this the first time I have seen it come up? I don't consider myself to be uninformed...

 

I'm in the aforementioned camp of these guys not having enough talent to hit that ball...just hit it in the hole and move on if that talent exists!

[santasquatcha]

Man all of you "wouldn't he just make it?" guys are missing the point completely.

 

Just read what JT says about it. "if i want to rush and hit a shot for that reason it's my right"

 

He then goes on to make the awful comparison between this and the size of the gallery. If the obvious difference there escapes you too, I'm not sure any explanation will be helpful.

 

Every person who is defending the practice and is saying it's not looking for any advantage isn't listening to Thomas. He's freely acknowledging that's the goal.

 

Again, we're talking about protecting the field.

 

Thomas is aboot to learn a good lesson. Just because you won a major doesn't mean you should get loose lipped on twitter. It will only hurt him. Nothing to be gained.

 

I think that JT comes off worse than Tony F here... Best thing for him would be to stay out of this one.

 

--

about the possible rule infraction

--

 

If I had a preference, I would pick faster play.... and this is being blown out of proportion.

 

But still, if TF had intent to use that ball as a backstop, it still would make this is a moral violation of the game.

 

it is completely besides the point, how difficult that shot would be to pull off... its the intent and increase of probability to aid his game on a possible rules infraction that counts here.

[deadsolid...shank]

Man all of you "wouldn't he just make it?" guys are missing the point completely.

 

Just read what JT says about it. "if i want to rush and hit a shot for that reason it's my right"

 

He then goes on to make the awful comparison between this and the size of the gallery. If the obvious difference there escapes you too, I'm not sure any explanation will be helpful.

 

Every person who is defending the practice and is saying it's not looking for any advantage isn't listening to Thomas. He's freely acknowledging that's the goal.

 

Again, we're talking about protecting the field.

 

Thomas is aboot to learn a good lesson. Just because you won a major doesn't mean you should get loose lipped on twitter. It will only hurt him. Nothing to be gained.

 

I think that JT comes off worse than Tony F here... Best thing for him would be to stay out of this one.

 

--

about the possible rule infraction

--

 

If I had a preference, I would pick faster play.... and this is being blown out of proportion.

 

But still, if TF had intent to use that ball as a backstop, it still would make this is a moral violation of the game.

 

it is completely besides the point, how difficult that shot would be to pull off... its the intent and increase of probability to aid his game on a possible rules infraction that counts here.

 

But it's not a rules infraction. They didn't collude to leave the ball there to help TF. He took advantage of what amounts to a good break.

[farmer]

i was asked countless times by anplaying partner if I wanted them to "leave it there".

Never gave it much thought tbh, but I usually said go ahead and mark it. I didn't want the distraction.

 

I like to play quickly, and I know I hit shots with a ball up there many times, simply out of impatience though.

 

1) I believe the practice should be addressed. Simply tell the players they can't leave their ball in place

In

Order to assist another player. No big rule change, just notify its not allowed.

 

 

Rangers, I've asked twice but no one has offered an answer or opinion.

 

How close to the green does a player have to be where a ball in the green would be required to be marked? That's the only issue I see, is how do you regulate it.

To take this to an absurd conclusion, every player who hits a green needs to go mark his ball. The flagstick needs to be removed (clearly a backstop), the answer could be to have a marshal whose job is to mark each ball on the green, and one to remove the flagstick while the ball is in the air. This collusion conspiracy is one of the dumbest I've read.

[Atrayn]

Players will take every advantage they can get if there is wiggle room. You cannot blame the players.

 

This thing known as "backstopping" is definitely a recent thing though. In the past every effort was made to avoid the possibility of it happening, that effort now seems to be missing in some quarters.

 

Some might say its the slow erosion of integrity is permeating into the game of golf.

 

Unfortunately, integrity, wisdom, empathy and morality are slowly being weaned from our society, no matter how much many of us dislike it.

The root cause isn't an individual or two, it's the acceptance of the behavior. Unless rules are put in to stop it, and then those that violate are held accountable, it will continue.

 

The reality is, the gentlemen's game as it was traditionally played has gone by the wayside ever since big money came to be for the professional golfer.

[OldTomMorris]

Math Question: The European Tour is implementing a shot clock this year. Jason Kokrak chips his ball onto the green from 60 yards away. The next player has 40 seconds to hit their shot. Tony Finau is waiting in the greenside bunker to take his shot. Jason Kokrak pats the divot down with his wedge, sticks his wedge back in his bag, takes his glove off, gets handed his putter, and strolls up to the green to mark his ball. How many seconds does Tony Finau now have to dig in and hit his bunker shot from a plugged lie without being warned or given a 1 stroke penalty?

 

Finau can mark the ball though. I've done this and played in strokeplay when its been done.

 

He could, but why would he?

 

The rule states: In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified.

 

Is Finau breaking the rules by leaving the other player's ball behind the hole? There was no agreement between he and his playing partner to leave the ball there to assist his shot. His playing partner is just slow and/or too far away to get their in time to mark it before he is ready to hit.

 

True he's not obliged to, I don't know the answer but it feels wrong to me. Some of the scenarios caught on film there is no reason for the ball not being marked so the intent is as clear as it could be without being inside someones head.

 

Regardless of which side you come down on this debate the introducing pace of play as a factor is a ruse in my opinion.

[OldTomMorris]

Such a non issue. Literally dumber than talking about what pants Ian poulter is wearihg .... no way on the planet anyone is hitting a ball on the green on purpose. Why not just hole it if this is so ?

 

I don't think this issue is that hard to understand. I don't believe anyone is actually aiming for the ball, but it's mere presence gives the player an advantage by acting as a potential, additional backstop.

I have been playing golf many years and been on this site for many years. If it is such a big deal why is this the first time I have seen it come up? I don't consider myself to be uninformed...

 

I'm in the aforementioned camp of these guys not having enough talent to hit that ball...just hit it in the hole and move on if that talent exists!

 

The reason its come up I believe and I've noticed it with my own eyes is there has been a recent trend of players not marking the ball whereas in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario.

[bladehunter]

Players will take every advantage they can get if there is wiggle room. You cannot blame the players.

 

This thing known as "backstopping" is definitely a recent thing though. In the past every effort was made to avoid the possibility of it happening, that effort now seems to be missing in some quarters.

 

Some might say its the slow erosion of integrity is permeating into the game of golf.

 

Unfortunately, integrity, wisdom, empathy and morality are slowly being weaned from our society, no matter how much many of us dislike it.

The root cause isn't an individual or two, it's the acceptance of the behavior. Unless rules are put in to stop it, and then those that violate are held accountable, it will continue.

 

The reality is, the gentlemen's game as it was traditionally played has gone by the wayside ever since big money came to be for the professional golfer.

 

 

 

 

The truth. Straight from the loud speaker on the pope mobile ! couodnt have said it better !

[bladehunter]

Math Question: The European Tour is implementing a shot clock this year. Jason Kokrak chips his ball onto the green from 60 yards away. The next player has 40 seconds to hit their shot. Tony Finau is waiting in the greenside bunker to take his shot. Jason Kokrak pats the divot down with his wedge, sticks his wedge back in his bag, takes his glove off, gets handed his putter, and strolls up to the green to mark his ball. How many seconds does Tony Finau now have to dig in and hit his bunker shot from a plugged lie without being warned or given a 1 stroke penalty?

 

Best guess? Aboot 4 seconds. Which is why the shot clock will never work. It will implode. Watch and see

[Mr. Herbert]

Such a non issue. Literally dumber than talking about what pants Ian poulter is wearihg .... no way on the planet anyone is hitting a ball on the green on purpose. Why not just hole it if this is so ?

 

I don't think this issue is that hard to understand. I don't believe anyone is actually aiming for the ball, but it's mere presence gives the player an advantage by acting as a potential, additional backstop.

I have been playing golf many years and been on this site for many years. If it is such a big deal why is this the first time I have seen it come up? I don't consider myself to be uninformed...

 

I'm in the aforementioned camp of these guys not having enough talent to hit that ball...just hit it in the hole and move on if that talent exists!

 

The reason its come up I believe and I've noticed it with my own eyes is there has been a recent trend of players not marking the ball whereas in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario.

 

What proof do you have that this is a recent trend?