Pros and others throw USGA under the bus.

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

> @Shilgy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > >

> > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > >

> > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > >

> > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> >

> > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> >

> > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

>

> Where do you want the ropes set for that course if you're a fan? Outside all of the bunkers? Needing binoculars to see even the nearest player? When do the players take responsibility?

> One thing is for certain. The US Open is a big deal. If it wasn't we fans would not recall so many off the highs and lows of events that have transpired in their playing.

>

> People can post their dislike of the USGA but their biggest gaffe of the last few years is hiring FOX and allowing Joe Buck and Holy Sonders to have air time.

My opinion is that half the bunkers need to be smoothed out to make a non hazard native area.that area can be outside the ropes and Then the fans can pitch a tent and nobody cares. Otherwise i wouldn’t hold a church social , captains choice , wing ding , on that course.

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > >

> > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > >

> > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> >

> > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

>

> Firstly, sorry about mixing up the tournament/situation.

>

> But you are a bit of an enigma, aren't you ? LOL

>

> You argue on the side of not being able to identify a divot so one has to play it as it lies but now, for DJ, who was clearly in a sandy area (and yes, I'll grant you people were allowed way too close to the action, you think DJ couldn't know it was a bunker ? pretty funny.

>

> The rules sheet was handed out to everybody and they were warned. The ball was clearly lying in a sandy area, not just a small area of sand in the fairway or the rough. You're telling me that if it was you, you would have grounded your club without even asking someone ? Or, even if you weren't sure, would have have erred on the side of caution and not grounded your club ?

>

> Now you're sounding like RK and Hats,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "We know a divot when we see it". You (and DJ of course) just don't know a bunker when you see it even after you were specifically warned about them". Too funny. LOL

I as in me .., would have walked back to the fairway until they moved the entire crowd out of the area. The day will come when we see a shanked ball pierce a human skull on live tv. And it will be because of idiotic things like that shot.

As for the me being an enigma. Not really. I just try to make my mind up on a case by case basis. Anyone who thinks straight down a party line worries me. No one group , thought pattern , or set of rules is ever 100 %. I see no reason why I can’t chose my opinions a’ la carte.

nsxguy · June 2, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > >

> > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > >

> > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > >

> > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> >

> > Firstly, sorry about mixing up the tournament/situation.

> >

> > But you are a bit of an enigma, aren't you ? LOL

> >

> > You argue on the side of not being able to identify a divot so one has to play it as it lies but now, for DJ, who was clearly in a sandy area (and yes, I'll grant you people were allowed way too close to the action, you think DJ couldn't know it was a bunker ? pretty funny.

> >

> > The rules sheet was handed out to everybody and they were warned. The ball was clearly lying in a sandy area, not just a small area of sand in the fairway or the rough. **You're telling me that if it was you, you would have grounded your club without even asking someone ? Or, even if you weren't sure, would have have erred on the side of caution and not grounded your club ?

> > **

> > Now you're sounding like RK and Hats,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "We know a divot when we see it". You (and DJ of course) just don't know a bunker when you see it even after you were specifically warned about them". Too funny. LOL

>

> I as in me .., would have walked back to the fairway until they moved the entire crowd out of the area. The day will come when we see a shanked ball pierce a human skull on live tv. And it will be because of idiotic things like that shot.

You really are a riot. Do you ever give a straight answer ? LOL

I asked you whether you would have grounded your club in that sand without asking someone and your answer is you would have walked to the fairway until they removed the crowd.

You really should run for office some day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LOL

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > >

> > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > >

> > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > >

> > > Firstly, sorry about mixing up the tournament/situation.

> > >

> > > But you are a bit of an enigma, aren't you ? LOL

> > >

> > > You argue on the side of not being able to identify a divot so one has to play it as it lies but now, for DJ, who was clearly in a sandy area (and yes, I'll grant you people were allowed way too close to the action, you think DJ couldn't know it was a bunker ? pretty funny.

> > >

> > > The rules sheet was handed out to everybody and they were warned. The ball was clearly lying in a sandy area, not just a small area of sand in the fairway or the rough. **You're telling me that if it was you, you would have grounded your club without even asking someone ? Or, even if you weren't sure, would have have erred on the side of caution and not grounded your club ?

> > > **

> > > Now you're sounding like RK and Hats,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "We know a divot when we see it". You (and DJ of course) just don't know a bunker when you see it even after you were specifically warned about them". Too funny. LOL

> >

> > I as in me .., would have walked back to the fairway until they moved the entire crowd out of the area. The day will come when we see a shanked ball pierce a human skull on live tv. And it will be because of idiotic things like that shot.

>

> You really are a riot. Do you ever give a straight answer ? LOL

>

> I asked you whether you would have grounded your club in that sand without asking someone and your answer is you would have walked to the fairway until they removed the crowd.

>

> You really should run for office some day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LOL

>

Lol. I added some to that last post. But still didn’t address that part.

No. I do not believe I would have grounded it. I make it a habit to hover regardless. But. In that moment I can see why someone who didn’t hover every shot , might.

Buy my argument isn’t really about him being penalized. As I said earlier. Hey had no choice. But what I’m saying is this wasn’t just a foreseeable issue. It was a foreseen issue. They literally knew this would be a problem. Hence alll of the extra warnings on the men’s room wall etc.

Here’s an analogy. You have prior notice a truck will stall on railroad tracks and be hit by a passenger train. What the easiest way to prevent the accident ? Is it to call the truck driver or to radio ahead and stop the train. Let’s say you have a days notice. I say the guaranteed way is call the train tell it to stop at such and such marker. Boom. No collision.

The committee here called he truck driver and warned him instead and did nothing to stop the train. Collision still happened.

Point. Why not just setup the course in a non tricked up , sensible manner ? What politics caused this ? Realistically changed the outcome of the tournament. Dj was surely the favorite in that playoff.

Shilgy · June 2, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > > >

> > > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> > >

> > > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> > >

> > > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

> >

> > Where do you want the ropes set for that course if you're a fan? Outside all of the bunkers? Needing binoculars to see even the nearest player? When do the players take responsibility?

> > One thing is for certain. The US Open is a big deal. If it wasn't we fans would not recall so many off the highs and lows of events that have transpired in their playing.

> >

> > People can post their dislike of the USGA but their biggest gaffe of the last few years is hiring FOX and allowing Joe Buck and Holy Sonders to have air time.

>

> > @Golfer4Life said:

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @BNGL said:

> > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > The worst thing that can happen is the USGA making PB cupcake difficult. There are a few in here, based on their comments, that like -30 winners. I think true golf fans like the winner at about 0 - 5 under.

> > > >

> > > > First off son, I never said minus 30. What I did say, is that I was locked into the LPGA event a couple years ago where a young young lady shot 31 under 257, which over 72 holes to go 31 under par? Is absolutely the best golf I have seen on television. And that 25 under par score would be fantastic! When one can recognize a tough golf course and see someone be the anomaly that’s special to me.

> > > >

> > > > That being said...

> > > >

> > > > Let me spell out clearly (so that you don’t ever have to think again, it’s laid out right here for you since inferring and assumptions about others thoughts are clearly taxing your mental capacity) what I like to see from a golf tournament. I want to see one that allows players to score, only by hitting quality shots. Matching the trajectory with spin and shot shape to the course should be rewarded. Not one that rejects good shots, because it becomes too much luck and no skill.

> > > > The penalty should be severe, but not so much so that it’s an automatic punch out out hit to the middle of the green. If you can pull of a great recovery then you should be rewarded, but it seems to me (based on being at Oakmont twice, Shinnecock, Olympic, etc) that isn’t the case necessarily. I believe that you can set up a golf course where you can take the challenge off the tee, and have an easier approach or take the easy line off the tee and have a more difficult approach. Now part of this is outside anyone’s hands but the course designer, so you have to piece together each hole individually to make a puzzle that will challenge the best in the world. What I mean is; mowing patterns, fairway widths, rough heights, light furrowing of bunkers parallel with the line of play, slow the greens down but keep the firmness, vary tees all that stuff that has a set standard for every hole might not need to be so. A hole where guys have wedges in hands for the approach can have longer rough but a reachable par 5 or long par 4 cut it down a little bit to allow for some creativity rather than a wedge.

> > > >

> > > > And if one player or several have the answers that week then we will be treated to some high level golf.

> > >

> > > Talk about hitting a nerve. Do you have to talk down to people to get your point across? Also, how do you know I was referring to you? Relax, take a pill, have a beer, it's only a Golf Forum. :)

> >

> > He doesn't care, it is all about him. He's been ignored accordingly.

>

> Ah yes. The good old passive aggressive , can’t carry on a discussion tactic.

He wasn't talking about you though.

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

> @Shilgy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > > > >

> > > > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> > > >

> > > > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> > > >

> > > > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > > > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

> > >

> > > Where do you want the ropes set for that course if you're a fan? Outside all of the bunkers? Needing binoculars to see even the nearest player? When do the players take responsibility?

> > > One thing is for certain. The US Open is a big deal. If it wasn't we fans would not recall so many off the highs and lows of events that have transpired in their playing.

> > >

> > > People can post their dislike of the USGA but their biggest gaffe of the last few years is hiring FOX and allowing Joe Buck and Holy Sonders to have air time.

> >

> > > @Golfer4Life said:

> > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > @BNGL said:

> > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > The worst thing that can happen is the USGA making PB cupcake difficult. There are a few in here, based on their comments, that like -30 winners. I think true golf fans like the winner at about 0 - 5 under.

> > > > >

> > > > > First off son, I never said minus 30. What I did say, is that I was locked into the LPGA event a couple years ago where a young young lady shot 31 under 257, which over 72 holes to go 31 under par? Is absolutely the best golf I have seen on television. And that 25 under par score would be fantastic! When one can recognize a tough golf course and see someone be the anomaly that’s special to me.

> > > > >

> > > > > That being said...

> > > > >

> > > > > Let me spell out clearly (so that you don’t ever have to think again, it’s laid out right here for you since inferring and assumptions about others thoughts are clearly taxing your mental capacity) what I like to see from a golf tournament. I want to see one that allows players to score, only by hitting quality shots. Matching the trajectory with spin and shot shape to the course should be rewarded. Not one that rejects good shots, because it becomes too much luck and no skill.

> > > > > The penalty should be severe, but not so much so that it’s an automatic punch out out hit to the middle of the green. If you can pull of a great recovery then you should be rewarded, but it seems to me (based on being at Oakmont twice, Shinnecock, Olympic, etc) that isn’t the case necessarily. I believe that you can set up a golf course where you can take the challenge off the tee, and have an easier approach or take the easy line off the tee and have a more difficult approach. Now part of this is outside anyone’s hands but the course designer, so you have to piece together each hole individually to make a puzzle that will challenge the best in the world. What I mean is; mowing patterns, fairway widths, rough heights, light furrowing of bunkers parallel with the line of play, slow the greens down but keep the firmness, vary tees all that stuff that has a set standard for every hole might not need to be so. A hole where guys have wedges in hands for the approach can have longer rough but a reachable par 5 or long par 4 cut it down a little bit to allow for some creativity rather than a wedge.

> > > > >

> > > > > And if one player or several have the answers that week then we will be treated to some high level golf.

> > > >

> > > > Talk about hitting a nerve. Do you have to talk down to people to get your point across? Also, how do you know I was referring to you? Relax, take a pill, have a beer, it's only a Golf Forum. :)

> > >

> > > He doesn't care, it is all about him. He's been ignored accordingly.

> >

> > Ah yes. The good old passive aggressive , can’t carry on a discussion tactic.

>

> He wasn't talking about you though.

Lol. Nope. I’m on his ignore list too supposedly.

James the Hogan Fan · June 2, 2019

> @"North Texas" said:

> Sticking with the just the past 10 US Opens, which ones have had actual real setup issues? Doesn't matter if it rained or not. And 1 or 2 or 3 pros complaining in general doesn't count because that happens every year. Has to be something very specific that was obvious to anyone. Go!

2018: Shinnecock greens

2017: Erin Hills- Nothing(?) too easy I guess

2016: Oakmont- Nothing with setup, Dustin Johnson rules fiasco

2015: Chambers bay bouncing greens. (Which were bad enough even 3 years later that they have been replaced completely)

2014: Pinehurst- Nothing

2013: Merion- setup was perfect to me.

2012: Olympic, nothing (16’s back tee was a bit much)

2011: Congressional- rain made it too easy

2010: Pebble- 14th green unhittable. Otherwise fine.

2009: Bethpage, great tournament.

So that would be two glaring setup issues in the last 10 years and a couple of minor gripes by my count. I’m sure others will remind of issues I’ve overlooked.

gvogel · June 2, 2019

> @caniac6 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > >

> > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > >

> > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > >

> > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> >

> > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> >

> > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

>

> I agree with you 100%, but the player has responsability to know the rules. It was a crazy rule, and it might have been nice if the rules guy walking with the group could have said something. I don't know if he was allowed to say something directly to DJ, but he could have said "Hold on a minute while we get all these people out of the bunker." The whole scene was out of control.

We need to stop talking about this incident. It was the PGA of America who determined that all the waste areas were to be played as bunkers at Whistling Straits, and the walking rules person would have been a PGA of America person. The USGA had nothing to do with that incident.

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

> @gvogel said:

> > @caniac6 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > > >

> > > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> > >

> > > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> > >

> > > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

> >

> > I agree with you 100%, but the player has responsability to know the rules. It was a crazy rule, and it might have been nice if the rules guy walking with the group could have said something. I don't know if he was allowed to say something directly to DJ, but he could have said "Hold on a minute while we get all these people out of the bunker." The whole scene was out of control.

>

> We need to stop talking about this incident. It was the PGA of America who determined that all the waste areas were to be played as bunkers at Whistling Straits, and the walking rules person would have been a PGA of America person. The USGA had nothing to do with that incident.

I’d say it was probably a combo of the membership / Pete Dye and co . More so that the pga deciding that. Sure they stamped it. But that screamed of someone behind the scenes screaming “ that’s not how I designed the course “ . Well I’m sorry if the course wasn’t designed for spectators.

It is however a great example of the incredible course setup blunders. So it’s certainly on topic as long as we all know that mike Davis didn’t directly attribute to it.

North Texas · June 2, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > > > >

> > > > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> > > >

> > > > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> > > >

> > > > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > > > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

> > >

> > > I agree with you 100%, but the player has responsability to know the rules. It was a crazy rule, and it might have been nice if the rules guy walking with the group could have said something. I don't know if he was allowed to say something directly to DJ, but he could have said "Hold on a minute while we get all these people out of the bunker." The whole scene was out of control.

> >

> > We need to stop talking about this incident. It was the PGA of America who determined that all the waste areas were to be played as bunkers at Whistling Straits, and the walking rules person would have been a PGA of America person. The USGA had nothing to do with that incident.

>

> I’d say it was probably a combo of the membership / Pete Dye and co . More so that the pga deciding that. Sure they stamped it. But that screamed of someone behind the scenes screaming “ that’s not how I designed the course “ . Well I’m sorry if the course wasn’t designed for spectators.

>

> It is however a great example of the incredible course setup blunders. So it’s certainly on topic as long as we all know that mike Davis didn’t directly attribute to it.

Didn't you mean to say, "So it's certainly on topic as long as we all know that Mike Davis didn't have anything to do with at all"?

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

> @"North Texas" said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> > > > >

> > > > > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > > > > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

> > > >

> > > > I agree with you 100%, but the player has responsability to know the rules. It was a crazy rule, and it might have been nice if the rules guy walking with the group could have said something. I don't know if he was allowed to say something directly to DJ, but he could have said "Hold on a minute while we get all these people out of the bunker." The whole scene was out of control.

> > >

> > > We need to stop talking about this incident. It was the PGA of America who determined that all the waste areas were to be played as bunkers at Whistling Straits, and the walking rules person would have been a PGA of America person. The USGA had nothing to do with that incident.

> >

> > I’d say it was probably a combo of the membership / Pete Dye and co . More so that the pga deciding that. Sure they stamped it. But that screamed of someone behind the scenes screaming “ that’s not how I designed the course “ . Well I’m sorry if the course wasn’t designed for spectators.

> >

> > It is however a great example of the incredible course setup blunders. So it’s certainly on topic as long as we all know that mike Davis didn’t directly attribute to it.

>

> Didn't you mean to say, "So it's certainly on topic as long as we all know that Mike Davis didn't have anything to do with at all"?

Nope.

USga sets forth the attitude for all golf ruling bodies , maybe all on earth. Their my way or the highway attitudes certainly influence any committee who pays attention to them. It’s easy to see even in this argument. Those who are “ pro rules “ generally will not say a negative word about the USga. Period. A few exceptions exist. But people tend to by and large follow the leader pretty blindly.

nsxguy · June 2, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"North Texas" said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > > > > > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree with you 100%, but the player has responsability to know the rules. It was a crazy rule, and it might have been nice if the rules guy walking with the group could have said something. I don't know if he was allowed to say something directly to DJ, but he could have said "Hold on a minute while we get all these people out of the bunker." The whole scene was out of control.

> > > >

> > > > We need to stop talking about this incident. It was the PGA of America who determined that all the waste areas were to be played as bunkers at Whistling Straits, and the walking rules person would have been a PGA of America person. The USGA had nothing to do with that incident.

> > >

> > > I’d say it was probably a combo of the membership / Pete Dye and co . More so that the pga deciding that. Sure they stamped it. But that screamed of someone behind the scenes screaming “ that’s not how I designed the course “ . Well I’m sorry if the course wasn’t designed for spectators.

> > >

> > > It is however a great example of the incredible course setup blunders. So it’s certainly on topic as long as we all know that mike Davis didn’t directly attribute to it.

> >

> > Didn't you mean to say, "So it's certainly on topic as long as we all know that Mike Davis didn't have anything to do with at all"?

>

> Nope.

>

> USga sets forth the attitude for all golf ruling bodies , maybe all on earth. Their my way or the highway attitudes certainly influence any committee who pays attention to them. It’s easy to see even in this argument. Those who are “ pro rules “ generally will not say a negative word about the USga. Period. A few exceptions exist. But people tend to by and large follow the leader pretty blindly.

So THAT is how the USGA is responsible for everything wrong in ~~the~~ your golfing world ?

Well, that accounts for quite a bit !!! Thanks. LOL

North Texas · June 2, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @"North Texas" said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > > > > > > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agree with you 100%, but the player has responsability to know the rules. It was a crazy rule, and it might have been nice if the rules guy walking with the group could have said something. I don't know if he was allowed to say something directly to DJ, but he could have said "Hold on a minute while we get all these people out of the bunker." The whole scene was out of control.

> > > > >

> > > > > We need to stop talking about this incident. It was the PGA of America who determined that all the waste areas were to be played as bunkers at Whistling Straits, and the walking rules person would have been a PGA of America person. The USGA had nothing to do with that incident.

> > > >

> > > > I’d say it was probably a combo of the membership / Pete Dye and co . More so that the pga deciding that. Sure they stamped it. But that screamed of someone behind the scenes screaming “ that’s not how I designed the course “ . Well I’m sorry if the course wasn’t designed for spectators.

> > > >

> > > > It is however a great example of the incredible course setup blunders. So it’s certainly on topic as long as we all know that mike Davis didn’t directly attribute to it.

> > >

> > > Didn't you mean to say, "So it's certainly on topic as long as we all know that Mike Davis didn't have anything to do with at all"?

> >

> > Nope.

> >

> > USga sets forth the attitude for all golf ruling bodies , maybe all on earth. Their my way or the highway attitudes certainly influence any committee who pays attention to them. It’s easy to see even in this argument. Those who are “ pro rules “ generally will not say a negative word about the USga. Period. A few exceptions exist. But people tend to by and large follow the leader pretty blindly.

>

> So THAT is how the USGA is responsible for everything wrong in ~~the~~ your golfing world ?

>

> Well, that accounts for quite a bit !!! Thanks. LOL

>

Yea, just from reading this entire thread, it is obvious that there are people who:

1. Blame the USGA for everything.

2. Negatively exaggerate everything the USGA does that they don't like.

3. Will make s*** up if they can't actually find something they don't like.

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

You guys aren’t seriously going to claim USGA supreme leaders and then same breath act as if they have no influence over all majors / large events etc ? Can’t really be boss and not partially responsible too.

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

> @"North Texas" said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @"North Texas" said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > > > > > > > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I agree with you 100%, but the player has responsability to know the rules. It was a crazy rule, and it might have been nice if the rules guy walking with the group could have said something. I don't know if he was allowed to say something directly to DJ, but he could have said "Hold on a minute while we get all these people out of the bunker." The whole scene was out of control.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We need to stop talking about this incident. It was the PGA of America who determined that all the waste areas were to be played as bunkers at Whistling Straits, and the walking rules person would have been a PGA of America person. The USGA had nothing to do with that incident.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’d say it was probably a combo of the membership / Pete Dye and co . More so that the pga deciding that. Sure they stamped it. But that screamed of someone behind the scenes screaming “ that’s not how I designed the course “ . Well I’m sorry if the course wasn’t designed for spectators.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is however a great example of the incredible course setup blunders. So it’s certainly on topic as long as we all know that mike Davis didn’t directly attribute to it.

> > > >

> > > > Didn't you mean to say, "So it's certainly on topic as long as we all know that Mike Davis didn't have anything to do with at all"?

> > >

> > > Nope.

> > >

> > > USga sets forth the attitude for all golf ruling bodies , maybe all on earth. Their my way or the highway attitudes certainly influence any committee who pays attention to them. It’s easy to see even in this argument. Those who are “ pro rules “ generally will not say a negative word about the USga. Period. A few exceptions exist. But people tend to by and large follow the leader pretty blindly.

> >

> > So THAT is how the USGA is responsible for everything wrong in ~~the~~ your golfing world ?

> >

> > Well, that accounts for quite a bit !!! Thanks. LOL

> >

>

> Yea, just from reading this entire thread, it is obvious that there are people who:

> 1. Blame the USGA for everything.

> 2. Negatively exaggerate everything the USGA does that they don't like.

> 3. Will make **** up if they can't actually find something they don't like.

Also obvious is that some folks

1. Follow blindly without independent thought

2. Refuse to discuss the USga gaffes in honest terms. Glossing over them and then saying “ show me what’s so bad “ isn’t honest terms

3. Love to talk about pros “ crying”. Refusing to look into the mirror to see what their complaints about what pros say looks like. I can tell you. It’s “ crying “ just the same.

None of that is meant as a personal insult to you. I just mean to say that there’s two sides to this pancake too.

HitEmTrue · June 2, 2019

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Choclab said:

> > > @farmer said:

> > > I have no problem with a difficult set up for the Open. I do object to a professionally well played shot that does not yield at least an acceptable result. When that standard is not met, then the set up has gone too far.

> >

> > Same. I don't mind the US Open being exceptionally difficult; what I do mind is the greens being pushed to and beyond their limits. I don't know why they got away from the course's main defense being extremely difficult rough. Make it very tight and very high so fairways hit are at a premium like they used to, but don't make the greens unplayable.

> >

>

> To make a course play so that the winning score is going to be around par inherently runs the risk of losing the course. How do you make a bunch of +6 to +9 handicaps shoot 6-9 shots over their cap, per day, for a whole event? Folks praise the R&A setup and then also say they want even par to win the US Open.

>

> How? How would you set up the course to make that happen?

I hear what you saying...but a player’s handicap index and average are not the same, since index is based on best 10 out of last 20 scores. The average is already a higher score than the index.

North Texas · June 2, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"North Texas" said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @"North Texas" said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > > > > > > > > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I agree with you 100%, but the player has responsability to know the rules. It was a crazy rule, and it might have been nice if the rules guy walking with the group could have said something. I don't know if he was allowed to say something directly to DJ, but he could have said "Hold on a minute while we get all these people out of the bunker." The whole scene was out of control.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > We need to stop talking about this incident. It was the PGA of America who determined that all the waste areas were to be played as bunkers at Whistling Straits, and the walking rules person would have been a PGA of America person. The USGA had nothing to do with that incident.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’d say it was probably a combo of the membership / Pete Dye and co . More so that the pga deciding that. Sure they stamped it. But that screamed of someone behind the scenes screaming “ that’s not how I designed the course “ . Well I’m sorry if the course wasn’t designed for spectators.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is however a great example of the incredible course setup blunders. So it’s certainly on topic as long as we all know that mike Davis didn’t directly attribute to it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Didn't you mean to say, "So it's certainly on topic as long as we all know that Mike Davis didn't have anything to do with at all"?

> > > >

> > > > Nope.

> > > >

> > > > USga sets forth the attitude for all golf ruling bodies , maybe all on earth. Their my way or the highway attitudes certainly influence any committee who pays attention to them. It’s easy to see even in this argument. Those who are “ pro rules “ generally will not say a negative word about the USga. Period. A few exceptions exist. But people tend to by and large follow the leader pretty blindly.

> > >

> > > So THAT is how the USGA is responsible for everything wrong in ~~the~~ your golfing world ?

> > >

> > > Well, that accounts for quite a bit !!! Thanks. LOL

> > >

> >

> > Yea, just from reading this entire thread, it is obvious that there are people who:

> > 1. Blame the USGA for everything.

> > 2. Negatively exaggerate everything the USGA does that they don't like.

> > 3. Will make **** up if they can't actually find something they don't like.

>

> Also obvious is that some folks

> 1. Follow blindly without independent thought

> 2. Refuse to discuss the USga gaffes in honest terms. Glossing over them and then saying “ show me what’s so bad “ isn’t honest terms

> 3. Love to talk about pros “ crying”. Refusing to look into the mirror to see what their complaints about what pros say looks like. I can tell you. It’s “ crying “ just the same.

>

> None of that is meant as a personal insult to you. I just mean to say that there’s two sides to this pancake too.

I don't take it as a personal insult at all. In fact, I totally agree that there's two sides to this pancake. And people on both sides of the argument absolutely are guilty of your first 2 points.

RobS14526 · June 2, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> You guys aren’t seriously going to claim USGA supreme leaders and then same breath act as if they have no influence over all majors / large events etc ? Can’t really be boss and not partially responsible too.

Does that mean that they are partially responsible for all of the good setups at the other majors?

At this point they should just embrace playing the heel. There’s going to be controversy at Pebble real or manufactured. People are looking for it and I have a feeling the Fox would love it.

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

> @RobS14526 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > You guys aren’t seriously going to claim USGA supreme leaders and then same breath act as if they have no influence over all majors / large events etc ? Can’t really be boss and not partially responsible too.

> Does that mean that they are partially responsible for all of the good setups at the other majors?

>

> At this point they should just embrace playing the heel. There’s going to be controversy at Pebble real or manufactured. People are looking for it and I have a feeling the Fox would love it.

>

Sure they are. I’ve never said there all bad. In fact I’ve praised their club testing facility and the guys and gals who run it. Top notch service.

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

> @"North Texas" said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @"North Texas" said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @"North Texas" said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @caniac6 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was that the ball moving on the green or the bunker he grounded his club at ?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because if the latter, while the USGA/marshals were at fault for letting the crowds be IN that bunker or that close to the players, he was CLEARLY in the bunker and the USGA had specifically told the players that ALL bunkers were hazards and NOT waste areas. That penalty was **DJ's** (AND his caddy's) brain meltdown.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > That was the PGA. And yes, they blew it. If you can't keep crowds of people out of a bunker you have no business running a major tournament.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I’ll argue till the day I die that there was no way for Dj to know that was even a bunker. There were around 200 People surrounding him. You couldn’t see the bunkers sides etc. he hit that shot with people still in the bunker. Complete disgrace in my opinion for him to be penalized. Why they allowed the ropes to be inside of traps in play I’ll never know. My opinion of that course will never be positive , it’s a Disney land joke.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It was stated on the rules sheet for the tournament that all sandy areas were bunkers. All the players and caddies recieved the rules sheet, and DJ and his caddie admitted they did not read the rules sheet. I remember saying he grounded his club in a bunker as soon as he did it.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Lol. Chicken **** setup. Period.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > “ sandy areas “. Defined how ? Any sand ? As in bare spot in the fairway , divots ? Lol.

> > > > > > > > > > I’m very familiar with the story. Even posted things in the men’s room to remind them. All beside the point. The officials should have stopped and moved several hundred people so the area was easy to identify as an actual hazard. In my opinion if fans are sitting in it , it can’t be an internal hazard on a major championship course.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I agree with you 100%, but the player has responsability to know the rules. It was a crazy rule, and it might have been nice if the rules guy walking with the group could have said something. I don't know if he was allowed to say something directly to DJ, but he could have said "Hold on a minute while we get all these people out of the bunker." The whole scene was out of control.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > We need to stop talking about this incident. It was the PGA of America who determined that all the waste areas were to be played as bunkers at Whistling Straits, and the walking rules person would have been a PGA of America person. The USGA had nothing to do with that incident.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I’d say it was probably a combo of the membership / Pete Dye and co . More so that the pga deciding that. Sure they stamped it. But that screamed of someone behind the scenes screaming “ that’s not how I designed the course “ . Well I’m sorry if the course wasn’t designed for spectators.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is however a great example of the incredible course setup blunders. So it’s certainly on topic as long as we all know that mike Davis didn’t directly attribute to it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Didn't you mean to say, "So it's certainly on topic as long as we all know that Mike Davis didn't have anything to do with at all"?

> > > > >

> > > > > Nope.

> > > > >

> > > > > USga sets forth the attitude for all golf ruling bodies , maybe all on earth. Their my way or the highway attitudes certainly influence any committee who pays attention to them. It’s easy to see even in this argument. Those who are “ pro rules “ generally will not say a negative word about the USga. Period. A few exceptions exist. But people tend to by and large follow the leader pretty blindly.

> > > >

> > > > So THAT is how the USGA is responsible for everything wrong in ~~the~~ your golfing world ?

> > > >

> > > > Well, that accounts for quite a bit !!! Thanks. LOL

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yea, just from reading this entire thread, it is obvious that there are people who:

> > > 1. Blame the USGA for everything.

> > > 2. Negatively exaggerate everything the USGA does that they don't like.

> > > 3. Will make **** up if they can't actually find something they don't like.

> >

> > Also obvious is that some folks

> > 1. Follow blindly without independent thought

> > 2. Refuse to discuss the USga gaffes in honest terms. Glossing over them and then saying “ show me what’s so bad “ isn’t honest terms

> > 3. Love to talk about pros “ crying”. Refusing to look into the mirror to see what their complaints about what pros say looks like. I can tell you. It’s “ crying “ just the same.

> >

> > None of that is meant as a personal insult to you. I just mean to say that there’s two sides to this pancake too.

>

> I don't take it as a personal insult at all. In fact, I totally agree that there's two sides to this pancake. And people on both sides of the argument absolutely are guilty of your first 2 points.

Yes sir. We agree. I’m always willing to compromise as long as the other side will give as well. That’s really rare around here. So good show sir !

caniac6 · June 2, 2019

The set up at the Women's US Open looks pretty good to me. I can't tell that they have done much to the course. The rough might be a touch higher, but it looks like the members could play tomorrow without much trouble.

buckeyefl · June 2, 2019

> @pgapromex said:

> > @BNGL said:

> > > @Golfer4Life said:

> > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > @BNGL said:

> > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > The worst thing that can happen is the USGA making PB cupcake difficult. There are a few in here, based on their comments, that like -30 winners. I think true golf fans like the winner at about 0 - 5 under.

> > > > >

> > > > > First off son, I never said minus 30. What I did say, is that I was locked into the LPGA event a couple years ago where a young young lady shot 31 under 257, which over 72 holes to go 31 under par? Is absolutely the best golf I have seen on television. And that 25 under par score would be fantastic! When one can recognize a tough golf course and see someone be the anomaly that’s special to me.

> > > > >

> > > > > That being said...

> > > > >

> > > > > Let me spell out clearly (so that you don’t ever have to think again, it’s laid out right here for you since inferring and assumptions about others thoughts are clearly taxing your mental capacity) what I like to see from a golf tournament. I want to see one that allows players to score, only by hitting quality shots. Matching the trajectory with spin and shot shape to the course should be rewarded. Not one that rejects good shots, because it becomes too much luck and no skill.

> > > > > The penalty should be severe, but not so much so that it’s an automatic punch out out hit to the middle of the green. If you can pull of a great recovery then you should be rewarded, but it seems to me (based on being at Oakmont twice, Shinnecock, Olympic, etc) that isn’t the case necessarily. I believe that you can set up a golf course where you can take the challenge off the tee, and have an easier approach or take the easy line off the tee and have a more difficult approach. Now part of this is outside anyone’s hands but the course designer, so you have to piece together each hole individually to make a puzzle that will challenge the best in the world. What I mean is; mowing patterns, fairway widths, rough heights, light furrowing of bunkers parallel with the line of play, slow the greens down but keep the firmness, vary tees all that stuff that has a set standard for every hole might not need to be so. A hole where guys have wedges in hands for the approach can have longer rough but a reachable par 5 or long par 4 cut it down a little bit to allow for some creativity rather than a wedge.

> > > > >

> > > > > And if one player or several have the answers that week then we will be treated to some high level golf.

> > > >

> > > > Talk about hitting a nerve. Do you have to talk down to people to get your point across? Also, how do you know I was referring to you? Relax, take a pill, have a beer, it's only a Golf Forum. :)

> > >

> > > He doesn't care, it is all about him. He's been ignored accordingly.

> >

> > Y’all are totally right it is about me... I have a hard on for getting people riled up over nothing. I mean only I only hosted a PGA Tour Invitational for three seasons, been a part of two US Open setups, one Ryder Cup setup, then was a superintendent at one of the more exclusive clubs in the world that played host several tour players past and present. And then back in the day I could play a little as well, All-American honors aren’t too shabby throw in a back door top 10 at a national championship, still go some game now and enough discretion to be friendly enough with top players on tour to talk fairly regularly with several in a frank and personal manner.

> >

> > If I know I’m right, (through deduction and simple logic I’m the only one that mentioned 30 under in this thread...who else would it be referring too?) it’s your job to get out of my way. It is far better to be right than liked in life, and in my profession I have gathered opinions from all sides of the spectrum; players, USGA, USGA Agronomists, superintendents of host courses. I sleep soundly knowing that what I share on here is based on informed opinion (keyword informed) and factual in nature.

> >

> > On a side note, you probably think I’m childish and I am very petty and hold a grudge but what consensus can be reached by just ignoring what you don’t agree with? How is that fostering growth or reason?

>

> Get help

Brother you may want to look in the mirror.> @caniac6 said:

> The set up at the Women's US Open looks pretty good to me. I can't tell that they have done much to the course. The rough might be a touch higher, but it looks like the members could play tomorrow without much trouble.

When I watched the other day there was very low rough and the fairways were very thin in spots.

nsxguy · June 2, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> You guys aren’t seriously going to claim USGA supreme leaders and then same breath act as if they have no influence over all majors / large events etc ? Can’t really be boss and not partially responsible too.

You really are prone to hyperbole, aren't you ?

Please point out just ONE poster who's proclaimed the USGA "Superme Leader" and/or said anything even CLOSE to "The USGA is always right. They never do anything wrong."

Yet there seems to be no shortage of posters here who seem to blame the USGA for "everything"; even while one or two, like yourself, occasionally, though seemingly grudgingly, admit they sometimes get "something" right. Sounds like those who admit that though (most won't) are getting multiple teeth pulled. LOL

ebrasmus21 · June 2, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > You guys aren’t seriously going to claim USGA supreme leaders and then same breath act as if they have no influence over all majors / large events etc ? Can’t really be boss and not partially responsible too.

>

> You really are prone to hyperbole, aren't you ?

>

> Please point out just ONE poster who's proclaimed the USGA "Superme Leader" and/or said anything even CLOSE to "The USGA is always right. They never do anything wrong."

>

> Yet there seems to be no shortage of posters here who seem to blame the USGA for "everything"; even while one or two, like yourself, occasionally, though seemingly grudgingly, admit they sometimes get "something" right. Sounds like those who admit that though (most won't) are getting multiple teeth pulled. LOL

>

I'd say the arrogance of the USGA is probably one of the biggest factors afflicting us haters. If the USGA just came out hat-in-hand and said "wow, we really messed this up. Sorry everyone, we will learn from our mistakes and not do this again in the future" then I think we'd be coming froma difference place.

But they don't do that. And at the opposite end of the spectrum on this board there is a lot of "well why don't YOU try to run a national champiionship!" which can come across as a pretty weak excuse that is entirely besides the point.

bladehunter · June 2, 2019

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > You guys aren’t seriously going to claim USGA supreme leaders and then same breath act as if they have no influence over all majors / large events etc ? Can’t really be boss and not partially responsible too.

> >

> > You really are prone to hyperbole, aren't you ?

> >

> > Please point out just ONE poster who's proclaimed the USGA "Superme Leader" and/or said anything even CLOSE to "The USGA is always right. They never do anything wrong."

> >

> > Yet there seems to be no shortage of posters here who seem to blame the USGA for "everything"; even while one or two, like yourself, occasionally, though seemingly grudgingly, admit they sometimes get "something" right. Sounds like those who admit that though (most won't) are getting multiple teeth pulled. LOL

> >

>

> I'd say the arrogance of the USGA is probably one of the biggest factors afflicting us haters. If the USGA just came out hat-in-hand and said "wow, we really messed this up. Sorry everyone, we will learn from our mistakes and not do this again in the future" then I think we'd be coming froma difference place.

>

> But they don't do that. And at the opposite end of the spectrum on this board there is a lot of "well why don't YOU try to run a national champiionship!" which can come across as a pretty weak excuse that is entirely besides the point.

Bingo. They deny deny deny .... then deflect deflect deflect. I mean they’ve blamed screw ups on rogue greens staff ( which is impossible ) for Pete’s sake. And lately they flat lied about what Justin Thomas has said. And when called out finally backed off and just played like the scenario never happened. That’s the root of the issue of hate. It’s arrogance which breeds mistrust. And the Hilarious part of the level of public mistrust is up there with companies selling pain meds and carnival barkers. And that’s funny to me because in theory they aren’t really selling us anything. At least they shouldn’t be. Just producing a great championship. Shouldn’t really be hard with the budget they have to work with. Now I’m not saying it’s not work. But work doesn’t have to be difficult

Ashley Schaeffer · June 2, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > You guys aren’t seriously going to claim USGA supreme leaders and then same breath act as if they have no influence over all majors / large events etc ? Can’t really be boss and not partially responsible too.

>

> You really are prone to hyperbole, aren't you ?

>

> Please point out just ONE poster who's proclaimed the USGA "Superme Leader" and/or said anything even CLOSE to "The USGA is always right. They never do anything wrong."

>

> Yet there seems to be no shortage of posters here who seem to blame the USGA for "everything"; even while one or two, like yourself, occasionally, though seemingly grudgingly, admit they sometimes get "something" right. Sounds like those who admit that though (most won't) are getting multiple teeth pulled. LOL

>

There certainly are posters who seem to blame everything on the USGA. Heck, just yesterday, I was reading that someone blamed the 2010 PGA Championship bunker situation on the USGA.

Shilgy · June 2, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > You guys aren’t seriously going to claim USGA supreme leaders and then same breath act as if they have no influence over all majors / large events etc ? Can’t really be boss and not partially responsible too.

> > >

> > > You really are prone to hyperbole, aren't you ?

> > >

> > > Please point out just ONE poster who's proclaimed the USGA "Superme Leader" and/or said anything even CLOSE to "The USGA is always right. They never do anything wrong."

> > >

> > > Yet there seems to be no shortage of posters here who seem to blame the USGA for "everything"; even while one or two, like yourself, occasionally, though seemingly grudgingly, admit they sometimes get "something" right. Sounds like those who admit that though (most won't) are getting multiple teeth pulled. LOL

> > >

> >

> > I'd say the arrogance of the USGA is probably one of the biggest factors afflicting us haters. If the USGA just came out hat-in-hand and said "wow, we really messed this up. Sorry everyone, we will learn from our mistakes and not do this again in the future" then I think we'd be coming froma difference place.

> >

> > But they don't do that. And at the opposite end of the spectrum on this board there is a lot of "well why don't YOU try to run a national champiionship!" which can come across as a pretty weak excuse that is entirely besides the point.

>

> Bingo. They deny deny deny .... then deflect deflect deflect. I mean they’ve blamed screw ups on rogue greens staff ( which is impossible ) for Pete’s sake. And lately they flat lied about what Justin Thomas has said. And when called out finally backed off and just played like the scenario never happened. That’s the root of the issue of hate. It’s arrogance which breeds mistrust. And the Hilarious part of the level of public mistrust is up there with companies selling pain meds and carnival barkers. And that’s funny to me because in theory they aren’t really selling us anything. At least they shouldn’t be. Just producing a great championship. Shouldn’t really be hard with the budget they have to work with. Now I’m not saying it’s not work. But work doesn’t have to be difficult

That's part of your disconnect. The US Open is not all they do. In fact I would say that championship is a very small portion of the job they do. They are tasked with running this game we all love. And they have to put up with the slings and arrows many will target them with.

It's really a thankless job that is virtually impossible to get "right" because everyone perception of "right" varies. Just read the rules section. Some want relief from divots . Some want to drop from whatever height they decided "correct ". The tour pros don't read but want a say in rules anyways.

You get the point. And yet the folks in charge carry on because they love the game as much as we do. In spite of the comments directed at them.

Golfer4Life · June 2, 2019

Watching the Women's U.S. Open and now I understand why the USGA is a destructive force in golf. Basically they are like an Egyptian plague, the pick a course, kill it, and move on?????

nsxguy · June 2, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > You guys aren’t seriously going to claim USGA supreme leaders and then same breath act as if they have no influence over all majors / large events etc ? Can’t really be boss and not partially responsible too.

> > >

> > > You really are prone to hyperbole, aren't you ?

> > >

> > > Please point out just ONE poster who's proclaimed the USGA "Superme Leader" and/or said anything even CLOSE to "The USGA is always right. They never do anything wrong."

> > >

> > > Yet there seems to be no shortage of posters here who seem to blame the USGA for "everything"; even while one or two, like yourself, occasionally, though seemingly grudgingly, admit they sometimes get "something" right. Sounds like those who admit that though (most won't) are getting multiple teeth pulled. LOL

> > >

> >

> > I'd say the arrogance of the USGA is probably one of the biggest factors afflicting us haters. If the USGA just came out hat-in-hand and said "wow, we really messed this up. Sorry everyone, we will learn from our mistakes and not do this again in the future" then I think we'd be coming froma difference place.

> >

> > But they don't do that. And at the opposite end of the spectrum on this board there is a lot of "well why don't YOU try to run a national champiionship!" which can come across as a pretty weak excuse that is entirely besides the point.

>

> Bingo. They deny deny deny .... then deflect deflect deflect. I mean they’ve blamed screw ups on rogue greens staff ( which is impossible ) for Pete’s sake. And lately they flat lied about what Justin Thomas has said. And when called out finally backed off and just played like the scenario never happened. That’s the root of the issue of hate. It’s arrogance which breeds mistrust. And the Hilarious part of the level of public mistrust is up there with companies selling pain meds and carnival barkers. And that’s funny to me because in theory they aren’t really selling us anything. At least they shouldn’t be. Just producing a great championship. Shouldn’t really be hard with the budget they have to work with. Now I’m not saying it’s not work. But work doesn’t have to be difficult

Re: Justin Thomas. What did they "lie" about ? "You've canceled every meeting" ? That was a POKE/JOKE. A poor one but a joke nevertheless. Most likely by some underling that had some control of the twitter(?) account. Not any more but at the time,,,,,,, LOL

"_Justin, we need to talk," read the USGA statement. "You’ve cancelled every meeting we’ve planned with you, but we are reaching out again. We were at the first 5 events, and tournaments last year, and your tour has had a seat at the table for 7 years. We’d love nothing more than to give you a seat. Call us_."

In response to Justin's whining somebody at the USGA (did that ever come out ? WHO tweeted that ?), annoyed when they should have just kept quiet, "poked" JT, just like pretty much ALL of us "poke" each other. It was a JOKE. A poor joke/poke but that's all it was,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or did I miss an additional story ?

And they "backtracked" ??? More with the words. You say "deny, deny, deny" and "deflect, deflect, deflect". They admitted their mistake. But for YOU it's "backtracking" ? LOL Where did the deny it ? Where did they deflect anything ? "Backed off like nothing happened" ???

"_After further and more direct conversations with @JustinThomas34, we realize he did not avoid a discussion with the USGA nor cancel any meetings. We value his and all players’ opinions and are committed to a productive dialogue as the golf world adjusts to the modernized rules_."

So they admitted the prior tweet was (partially) factually incorrect. But that's not good enough for you.

And WHY do such entities not often engage in these back-and-forths ? Because there's NO upside. They can't win. They stay quiet and don't engage the haterz or say "Yes sir", "Sorry sir" "We'll try harder sir". And then they're arrogant and non-responsive. LMAO They apologize/explain/whatever and you're mad at them for "backtracking" (or whatever else you want to call it).

You want them to apologize and/or admit their mistake(s) and just as the A.S. of wrx, as above, can't take an apology and let it go, neither can you - they're "backtracking".

This is why celebrities and major corporations, for the most part, have to suck it up; "shut up and take it". Them feeding the trolls usually only makes it worse. So they (mostly), if they have any brains, stay quiet. So, the whiners get ignored; as it should be.

nsxguy · June 2, 2019

> @Shilgy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > You guys aren’t seriously going to claim USGA supreme leaders and then same breath act as if they have no influence over all majors / large events etc ? Can’t really be boss and not partially responsible too.

> > > >

> > > > You really are prone to hyperbole, aren't you ?

> > > >

> > > > Please point out just ONE poster who's proclaimed the USGA "Superme Leader" and/or said anything even CLOSE to "The USGA is always right. They never do anything wrong."

> > > >

> > > > Yet there seems to be no shortage of posters here who seem to blame the USGA for "everything"; even while one or two, like yourself, occasionally, though seemingly grudgingly, admit they sometimes get "something" right. Sounds like those who admit that though (most won't) are getting multiple teeth pulled. LOL

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'd say the arrogance of the USGA is probably one of the biggest factors afflicting us haters. If the USGA just came out hat-in-hand and said "wow, we really messed this up. Sorry everyone, we will learn from our mistakes and not do this again in the future" then I think we'd be coming froma difference place.

> > >

> > > But they don't do that. And at the opposite end of the spectrum on this board there is a lot of "well why don't YOU try to run a national champiionship!" which can come across as a pretty weak excuse that is entirely besides the point.

> >

> > Bingo. They deny deny deny .... then deflect deflect deflect. I mean they’ve blamed screw ups on rogue greens staff ( which is impossible ) for Pete’s sake. And lately they flat lied about what Justin Thomas has said. And when called out finally backed off and just played like the scenario never happened. That’s the root of the issue of hate. It’s arrogance which breeds mistrust. And the Hilarious part of the level of public mistrust is up there with companies selling pain meds and carnival barkers. And that’s funny to me because in theory they aren’t really selling us anything. At least they shouldn’t be. Just producing a great championship. Shouldn’t really be hard with the budget they have to work with. Now I’m not saying it’s not work. But work doesn’t have to be difficult

>

> That's part of your disconnect. The US Open is not all they do. In fact I would say that championship is a very small portion of the job they do. They are tasked with running this game we all love. And they have to put up with the slings and arrows many will target them with.

> It's really a thankless job that is virtually impossible to get "right" because everyone perception of "right" varies. Just read the rules section. Some want relief from divots . Some want to drop from whatever height they decided "correct ". The tour pros don't read but want a say in rules anyways.

>

> You get the point. And yet the folks in charge carry on because they love the game as much as we do. In spite of the comments directed at them.

Well said.

It's just like any politician, even those voted in by a landslide. 33% of the people will STILL "bash" the winner every chance they get.

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