Pros and others throw USGA under the bus.

[bladehunter]

> @LICC said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > I am assuming you like driver/wedge/1 putt birdies?

> > How about driver/wedge/one-putt pars? Would that make you feel better? Just change "par" and the problem is solved.

> >

> > >Now I admit that gimmicky hard courses are ridiculous in their own way, but difficult challenging courses are what the US Open should be all about. I don't think most of the avid golf fans want to see 20 under par win the US Open, I think it's more entertaining for the winner to be at even-par or -3 or so.

> >

> > I'm a huge US Open fan and don't care if the winning score is plus 10 or minus 20. A winning score around par adds no value to me.

> >

> >

>

> If the US Open becomes a minus 20 winner event, it would pretty much be just any other tour event only with more fanfare. The US Open should have the identity of being a tougher test. I agree that setting up for an even par winner is misguided, but scores should be higher than regular events. The USGA for years had a good formula for this- take a great course, add some length, narrow the fairways, grow the rough, and speed up the greens. That should work fine. But they have gone overboard too much in recent years. And a Mike Davis has been trying to change that formula a bit and have it both ways- relatively wide fairways but still even par scoring. He tried that at Erin Hills and Shinnecock and it didn’t work. What the PGA just did at Bethpage was excellent and what the US Open should follow.

>

>

>

>

 

This years pga accomplished what you describe. Save for one outlier player , nobody scored low . And the greens lived , the bunkers didn’t have to be moved and fairways were reachable. lol. It’s doable. Just not by the USga.

[BNGL]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > Justin saying "we don't want to be bratty" seems kind of hollow. What I'd like to see from him is more long-form criticisms, rather than twitter-b**ching. If there are problems, and there certainly have been some with the US Open at times, they're not going to be addressed in 140 characters or less. That will also require a media outlet willing to publish longer-form discussions, and readers willing to go past the big print on the first page of the article.

> > > >

> > > > The USGA doesn't need any more input from anybody. They have received valuable input for quite some time from a variety of sources. They just need to quit worshipping par and quit trying to take the greens to the edge of unplayable.

> > >

> > > What's wrong with testing the limits of professional golfers?

> > >

> >

> > Nothing. It’s when they cross the limits of the course that heads should roll.

>

> Let's test that logic and look at this from a circumstance to which all of us can relate. So when the grounds people at your club put too much sand on the a few greens after punching, the club should fire the people involved with the decision about who purchased the sand?

>

 

I’m not sure those are the same things. Cultural practices are necessary, pushing a golf course beyond what the design allows for is not necessary.

[LICC]

> @JohnnyCashForever said:

> I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'm going to make an argument for the USGA that its apologists are too lazy or stupid to make on their own.

>

> Since Mike Davis's tenure, the US Open has produced the most number of "worthy" winners among the three majors with a full field. To keep it objective, I'm defining "worthy" as multiple major champions. It could be defined in a more qualitative way, but I think the results would be similar. Mike Davis took over the US Open set up in 1997, since then, there have been 22 US and British Opens, and 23 PGA Championships. Here are the number of "worthy" winners in that span:

>

> US Open: 15/22 (68%)

> The British Open: 12/22 (55%)

> The PGA has had 13/23 (57%)

>

> BTW, the Masters had the highest percentage of worthy winners, 17/23 (74%), but the field in that major is limited and thus more likely to produce a worthy winner.

>

> The US Open produces more worthy winners!

>

> I'm sure there are many more objective arguments one could make for the USGA instead of reflexively genuflecting to the blue blazer, but I think I've done my part.

>

>

>

 

I’m not sure how much weight to give a “multiple major” metric. Jason Day was close to #1 in the world when he won the PGA. Same with Justin Thomas. I think both were worthy winners. And your analysis can change drastically ten years from now if either wins another major.

[bladehunter]

I think Rory sums it up well “ if they can’t redeem themselves at pebble beach , thennnn we could have a problem “ Said in my opinion in the context and vein of “ if they screw up pebble we’re going to see fireworks. “

[imakaveli]

About time...

[imakaveli]

Also, R&A should run the US Open.

[bscinstnct]

> @imakaveli said:

> Also, R&A should run the US Open.

 

No way, man.

 

We fought a Revolutionary War for the right!

 

To mess up our *own Open ; )

[GolfChannel]

> @LICC said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > I am assuming you like driver/wedge/1 putt birdies?

> > How about driver/wedge/one-putt pars? Would that make you feel better? Just change "par" and the problem is solved.

> >

> > >Now I admit that gimmicky hard courses are ridiculous in their own way, but difficult challenging courses are what the US Open should be all about. I don't think most of the avid golf fans want to see 20 under par win the US Open, I think it's more entertaining for the winner to be at even-par or -3 or so.

> >

> > I'm a huge US Open fan and don't care if the winning score is plus 10 or minus 20. A winning score around par adds no value to me.

> >

> >

>

> If the US Open becomes a minus 20 winner event, it would pretty much be just any other tour event only with more fanfare. The US Open should have the identity of being a tougher test. I agree that setting up for an even par winner is misguided, but scores should be higher than regular events. The USGA for years had a good formula for this- take a great course, add some length, narrow the fairways, grow the rough, and speed up the greens. That should work fine. But they have gone overboard too much in recent years. And a Mike Davis has been trying to change that formula a bit and have it both ways- relatively wide fairways but still even par scoring. He tried that at Erin Hills and Shinnecock and it didn’t work. What the PGA just did at Bethpage was excellent and what the US Open should follow.

>

>

>

>

 

Bethpage was setup so only 25 golfers were ever going to win it due to the setup since the distance and rough had the opposite effect.

 

Find a way to present a tougher than usual challenge that actually allows a variety of skill sets to win and I’d be impressed. This is why the Open is the best major to me, it’s always challenging, but allows more than one type of game to compete and possibly win.

[LICC]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > I am assuming you like driver/wedge/1 putt birdies?

> > > How about driver/wedge/one-putt pars? Would that make you feel better? Just change "par" and the problem is solved.

> > >

> > > >Now I admit that gimmicky hard courses are ridiculous in their own way, but difficult challenging courses are what the US Open should be all about. I don't think most of the avid golf fans want to see 20 under par win the US Open, I think it's more entertaining for the winner to be at even-par or -3 or so.

> > >

> > > I'm a huge US Open fan and don't care if the winning score is plus 10 or minus 20. A winning score around par adds no value to me.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > If the US Open becomes a minus 20 winner event, it would pretty much be just any other tour event only with more fanfare. The US Open should have the identity of being a tougher test. I agree that setting up for an even par winner is misguided, but scores should be higher than regular events. The USGA for years had a good formula for this- take a great course, add some length, narrow the fairways, grow the rough, and speed up the greens. That should work fine. But they have gone overboard too much in recent years. And a Mike Davis has been trying to change that formula a bit and have it both ways- relatively wide fairways but still even par scoring. He tried that at Erin Hills and Shinnecock and it didn’t work. What the PGA just did at Bethpage was excellent and what the US Open should follow.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Bethpage was setup so only 25 golfers were ever going to win it due to the setup since the distance and rough had the opposite effect.

>

> Find a way to present a tougher than usual challenge that actually allows a variety of skill sets to win and I’d be impressed. This is why the Open is the best major to me, it’s always challenging, but allows more than one type of game to compete and possibly win.

 

What variety of skills weren't represented at the top of the leaderboard at Bethpage? Spieth, Cantlay, and Wallace each finished in the top 5 and none of them are straight, long drivers.

[imakaveli]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @imakaveli said:

> > Also, R&A should run the US Open.

>

> No way, man.

>

> We fought a Revolutionary War for the right!

>

> To mess up our *own Open ; )

 

Fair enough, at least do a Summer Internship at Portrush this July then.

[Ferguson]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > Justin saying "we don't want to be bratty" seems kind of hollow. What I'd like to see from him is more long-form criticisms, rather than twitter-b**ching. If there are problems, and there certainly have been some with the US Open at times, they're not going to be addressed in 140 characters or less. That will also require a media outlet willing to publish longer-form discussions, and readers willing to go past the big print on the first page of the article.

> > > > >

> > > > > The USGA doesn't need any more input from anybody. They have received valuable input for quite some time from a variety of sources. They just need to quit worshipping par and quit trying to take the greens to the edge of unplayable.

> > > >

> > > > What's wrong with testing the limits of professional golfers?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nothing. It’s when they cross the limits of the course that heads should roll.

> >

> > Let's test that logic and look at this from a circumstance to which all of us can relate. So when the grounds people at your club put too much sand on the a few greens after punching, the club should fire the people involved with the decision about who purchased the sand?

> >

>

> I don’t follow.

>

> I’m saying that when the USga pushes greens to the point of having to paint them because they are dying , then it’s past too far and whom ever made the decision to push them too far shouldn’t be there anymore.

 

You're saying people should get fired over a course set up, correct?

What people, and what legal reason would you or Mr. Hogan use to terminate those people?

It's dirt and grass.

 

[bladehunter]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > Justin saying "we don't want to be bratty" seems kind of hollow. What I'd like to see from him is more long-form criticisms, rather than twitter-b**ching. If there are problems, and there certainly have been some with the US Open at times, they're not going to be addressed in 140 characters or less. That will also require a media outlet willing to publish longer-form discussions, and readers willing to go past the big print on the first page of the article.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The USGA doesn't need any more input from anybody. They have received valuable input for quite some time from a variety of sources. They just need to quit worshipping par and quit trying to take the greens to the edge of unplayable.

> > > > >

> > > > > What's wrong with testing the limits of professional golfers?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Nothing. It’s when they cross the limits of the course that heads should roll.

> > >

> > > Let's test that logic and look at this from a circumstance to which all of us can relate. So when the grounds people at your club put too much sand on the a few greens after punching, the club should fire the people involved with the decision about who purchased the sand?

> > >

> >

> > I don’t follow.

> >

> > I’m saying that when the USga pushes greens to the point of having to paint them because they are dying , then it’s past too far and whom ever made the decision to push them too far shouldn’t be there anymore.

>

> You're saying people should get fired over a course set up, correct?

> What people, and what legal reason would you or Mr. Hogan use to terminate those people?

> It's dirt and grass.

>

 

Insubordination? Dereliction of duty ? In South Carolina we’d just say “ let me have your keys. Checks in the mail , best of luck “. No need for a reason.

 

Course setup isn’t what I’m saying. Lack of care in attempts to make greens faster is what I’m saying. As in “ would any greens have died or been severely harmed if no us open this week on this course “? If answer is no , then I don’t understand why it happens short of on purpose. So the responsible parties should find other things to do. Simple.

 

Incase we forget. This wasn’t due to weather. This was due to ego. They’ve tried to let it go thus far a couple times since.

 

https://www.golfchannel.com/video/last-time-shinnecock-no-7-gets-out-control

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > Justin saying "we don't want to be bratty" seems kind of hollow. What I'd like to see from him is more long-form criticisms, rather than twitter-b**ching. If there are problems, and there certainly have been some with the US Open at times, they're not going to be addressed in 140 characters or less. That will also require a media outlet willing to publish longer-form discussions, and readers willing to go past the big print on the first page of the article.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The USGA doesn't need any more input from anybody. They have received valuable input for quite some time from a variety of sources. They just need to quit worshipping par and quit trying to take the greens to the edge of unplayable.

> > > > >

> > > > > What's wrong with testing the limits of professional golfers?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Nothing. It’s when they cross the limits of the course that heads should roll.

> > >

> > > Let's test that logic and look at this from a circumstance to which all of us can relate. So when the grounds people at your club put too much sand on the a few greens after punching, the club should fire the people involved with the decision about who purchased the sand?

> > >

> >

> > I don’t follow.

> >

> > I’m saying that when the USga pushes greens to the point of having to paint them because they are dying , then it’s past too far and whom ever made the decision to push them too far shouldn’t be there anymore.

>

> You're saying people should get fired over a course set up, correct?

> What people, and what legal reason would you or Mr. Hogan use to terminate those people?

> It's dirt and grass.

>

 

I'm sure the USGA executive team, like all at the USGA , is At Will Employed. Don't need cause for termination. They have a broken culture, out of touch with everyone whom they represent, executed too many things poorly, been way behind managing the introduction of technology into the game and equipment. Their incompetence has made the US Open the laughing stock of majors because they are arrogant and/or incompetent. I'm sure there are many good people with good intentions in the organization, but are stymied by a stagnant and arrogant executive culture.

[ex0dus]

> @BMC said:

> Running the US Open is a very small part of what the USGA does. Some pampered tour pros just complaining.

> Thousands of amateurs playing in hundreds of tournaments a year don't seem to have any problem with the USGA.

 

Where do you think the USGA gets the money for the US Am and all those other tournaments?

The US Open funds the USGA. The money they get from memberships is probably just a drop in the bucket in comparison.

 

I think a lot of amateurs, like myself, don't like a lot of the things the USGA has done with the rules. The grove rule, anchoring and now the possibility of a ball rollback.

 

Then there are some crazy rulings. The DJ episode, the caddie alignment nonsense. I can see why the players are pissed.

 

 

 

[canonlbp430]

> @BNGL said:

> > @canonlbp430 said:

> > > @dalehead said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @BMC said:

> > > > > Running the US Open is a very small part of what the USGA does. Some pampered tour pros just complaining.

> > > > > Thousands of amateurs playing in hundreds of tournaments a year don't seem to have any problem with the USGA.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe because the USGA is good at amateur tournaments. The US Open, not so much.

> > >

> > > This is a good point. The USGA sets up courses for many championships including Senior US Open, Women's Open, and a slew of amateur championships, and they seem to do a good job. Why do they regularly have a problem with the Men's Open? My answer is they bring their preconceived ideas about how to run the Open with them and those ideas need to change.

> > >

> >

> > The problem is from the format difference. In all the other events there is qualifying and match play, so no "scoreboard." The USGA obsession over the scoreboard along with them thinking they can set up the course on the edge for 8 hrs without any of the thousands of variables changing and pushing it to stupid town is their downfall. I had a past podcast saved with Mike Davis that I listened to the other day and he pretty much admitted to analyzing every single hole and setting it up individually to act the exact way he wants it to. When you have 18 holes set up individually they can't all stay that way throughout the day as 100+ golfers pass through and weather changes

>

> Out of curiosity are you suggesting that setting up each hole individually is wrong?

 

I think setting up each hole individually is fine but there has to be room for error. You can't set up each hole in a way where a 5% wrong calculation in expected rain or wind or other factors now push that hole to the point of unplayable. If you have 18 holes set up that way you are bound to have 2 or 3 that react in an unexpected way as the day goes on and conditions change. I think if they had an overall view of how they would like the course to play as a whole (which I'm sure they do) and take a look at their "ideal" set up for each hole in a perfect situation then setting those holes for 90-95% of that to give themselves some leeway just in case it firms up more than they think, or the wind changes, or the traffic throughout the day impacts how the hole plays.

[Ferguson]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > Justin saying "we don't want to be bratty" seems kind of hollow. What I'd like to see from him is more long-form criticisms, rather than twitter-b**ching. If there are problems, and there certainly have been some with the US Open at times, they're not going to be addressed in 140 characters or less. That will also require a media outlet willing to publish longer-form discussions, and readers willing to go past the big print on the first page of the article.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The USGA doesn't need any more input from anybody. They have received valuable input for quite some time from a variety of sources. They just need to quit worshipping par and quit trying to take the greens to the edge of unplayable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What's wrong with testing the limits of professional golfers?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Nothing. It’s when they cross the limits of the course that heads should roll.

> > > >

> > > > Let's test that logic and look at this from a circumstance to which all of us can relate. So when the grounds people at your club put too much sand on the a few greens after punching, the club should fire the people involved with the decision about who purchased the sand?

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don’t follow.

> > >

> > > I’m saying that when the USga pushes greens to the point of having to paint them because they are dying , then it’s past too far and whom ever made the decision to push them too far shouldn’t be there anymore.

> >

> > You're saying people should get fired over a course set up, correct?

> > What people, and what legal reason would you or Mr. Hogan use to terminate those people?

> > It's dirt and grass.

> >

>

> I'm sure the USGA executive team, like all at the USGA , is At Will Employed. Don't need cause for termination. They have a broken culture, out of touch with everyone whom they represent, executed too many things poorly, been way behind managing the introduction of technology into the game and equipment. Their incompetence has made the US Open the laughing stock of majors because they are arrogant and/or incompetent. I'm sure there are many good people with good intentions in the organization, but are stymied by a stagnant and arrogant executive culture.

 

And what other large American organization isn't those things? It's the American culture that drives behavior like this; more specifically our feeling that bigger is always better. We Americans are fascinated with "giantism." We made the USGA what it is today.

 

Re: Introduction of tech?

Manufacturing and Marketing drives tech.

 

Re: British Open

The Euros do a great job with their Open because they have restraint.

We have 35 varieties of coffee, and we want 30 more, NOW!

 

The USGA has an abundance of resources, and no talent at the top. Course set-up should be at the bottom of the list.

They, like a good bunch of Americans, need to align their priorities (with the right people and culture, course set-up will fall into place).

[farmer]

I have no problem with a difficult set up for the Open. I do object to a professionally well played shot that does not yield at least an acceptable result. When that standard is not met, then the set up has gone too far.

[bladehunter]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > > Justin saying "we don't want to be bratty" seems kind of hollow. What I'd like to see from him is more long-form criticisms, rather than twitter-b**ching. If there are problems, and there certainly have been some with the US Open at times, they're not going to be addressed in 140 characters or less. That will also require a media outlet willing to publish longer-form discussions, and readers willing to go past the big print on the first page of the article.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The USGA doesn't need any more input from anybody. They have received valuable input for quite some time from a variety of sources. They just need to quit worshipping par and quit trying to take the greens to the edge of unplayable.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What's wrong with testing the limits of professional golfers?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nothing. It’s when they cross the limits of the course that heads should roll.

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's test that logic and look at this from a circumstance to which all of us can relate. So when the grounds people at your club put too much sand on the a few greens after punching, the club should fire the people involved with the decision about who purchased the sand?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don’t follow.

> > > >

> > > > I’m saying that when the USga pushes greens to the point of having to paint them because they are dying , then it’s past too far and whom ever made the decision to push them too far shouldn’t be there anymore.

> > >

> > > You're saying people should get fired over a course set up, correct?

> > > What people, and what legal reason would you or Mr. Hogan use to terminate those people?

> > > It's dirt and grass.

> > >

> >

> > I'm sure the USGA executive team, like all at the USGA , is At Will Employed. Don't need cause for termination. They have a broken culture, out of touch with everyone whom they represent, executed too many things poorly, been way behind managing the introduction of technology into the game and equipment. Their incompetence has made the US Open the laughing stock of majors because they are arrogant and/or incompetent. I'm sure there are many good people with good intentions in the organization, but are stymied by a stagnant and arrogant executive culture.

>

> And what other large American organization isn't those things? It's the American culture that drives behavior like this; more specifically our feeling that bigger is always better. We Americans are fascinated with "giantism." We made the USGA what it is today.

>

> Re: Introduction of tech?

> Manufacturing and Marketing drives tech.

>

> Re: British Open

> The Euros do a great job with their Open because they have restraint.

> We have 35 varieties of coffee, and we want 30 more, NOW!

>

> The USGA has an abundance of resources, and no talent at the top. Course set-up should be at the bottom of the list.

> They, like a good bunch of Americans, need to align their priorities (with the right people and culture, course set-up will fall into place).

 

I don’t disagree. But don’t you kill a snake from the head? I wasn’t talking about firing greenskeepers. I’m talking the puppet masters telling those guys what to do.

[Ferguson]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > > > Justin saying "we don't want to be bratty" seems kind of hollow. What I'd like to see from him is more long-form criticisms, rather than twitter-b**ching. If there are problems, and there certainly have been some with the US Open at times, they're not going to be addressed in 140 characters or less. That will also require a media outlet willing to publish longer-form discussions, and readers willing to go past the big print on the first page of the article.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The USGA doesn't need any more input from anybody. They have received valuable input for quite some time from a variety of sources. They just need to quit worshipping par and quit trying to take the greens to the edge of unplayable.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What's wrong with testing the limits of professional golfers?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nothing. It’s when they cross the limits of the course that heads should roll.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Let's test that logic and look at this from a circumstance to which all of us can relate. So when the grounds people at your club put too much sand on the a few greens after punching, the club should fire the people involved with the decision about who purchased the sand?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I don’t follow.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’m saying that when the USga pushes greens to the point of having to paint them because they are dying , then it’s past too far and whom ever made the decision to push them too far shouldn’t be there anymore.

> > > >

> > > > You're saying people should get fired over a course set up, correct?

> > > > What people, and what legal reason would you or Mr. Hogan use to terminate those people?

> > > > It's dirt and grass.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm sure the USGA executive team, like all at the USGA , is At Will Employed. Don't need cause for termination. They have a broken culture, out of touch with everyone whom they represent, executed too many things poorly, been way behind managing the introduction of technology into the game and equipment. Their incompetence has made the US Open the laughing stock of majors because they are arrogant and/or incompetent. I'm sure there are many good people with good intentions in the organization, but are stymied by a stagnant and arrogant executive culture.

> >

> > And what other large American organization isn't those things? It's the American culture that drives behavior like this; more specifically our feeling that bigger is always better. We Americans are fascinated with "giantism." We made the USGA what it is today.

> >

> > Re: Introduction of tech?

> > Manufacturing and Marketing drives tech.

> >

> > Re: British Open

> > The Euros do a great job with their Open because they have restraint.

> > We have 35 varieties of coffee, and we want 30 more, NOW!

> >

> > The USGA has an abundance of resources, and no talent at the top. Course set-up should be at the bottom of the list.

> > They, like a good bunch of Americans, need to align their priorities (with the right people and culture, course set-up will fall into place).

>

> I don’t disagree. But don’t you kill a snake from the head? I wasn’t talking about firing greenskeepers. I’m talking the puppet masters telling those guys what to do.

 

Are you serious? Clearly you never worked in a corporate environment.

What does a CEO or a COO know about turf? Rhetorical.

 

[Choclab]

> @farmer said:

> I have no problem with a difficult set up for the Open. I do object to a professionally well played shot that does not yield at least an acceptable result. When that standard is not met, then the set up has gone too far.

 

Same. I don't mind the US Open being exceptionally difficult; what I do mind is the greens being pushed to and beyond their limits. I don't know why they got away from the course's main defense being extremely difficult rough. Make it very tight and very high so fairways hit are at a premium like they used to, but don't make the greens unplayable.

 

[nsxguy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > Justin saying "we don't want to be bratty" seems kind of hollow. What I'd like to see from him is more long-form criticisms, rather than twitter-b**ching. If there are problems, and there certainly have been some with the US Open at times, they're not going to be addressed in 140 characters or less. That will also require a media outlet willing to publish longer-form discussions, and readers willing to go past the big print on the first page of the article.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The USGA doesn't need any more input from anybody. They have received valuable input for quite some time from a variety of sources. They just need to quit worshipping par and quit trying to take the greens to the edge of unplayable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What's wrong with testing the limits of professional golfers?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Nothing. It’s when they cross the limits of the course that heads should roll.

> > > >

> > > > Let's test that logic and look at this from a circumstance to which all of us can relate. So when the grounds people at your club put too much sand on the a few greens after punching, the club should fire the people involved with the decision about who purchased the sand?

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don’t follow.

> > >

> > > I’m saying that when the USga pushes greens to the point of having to paint them because they are dying , then it’s past too far and whom ever made the decision to push them too far shouldn’t be there anymore.

> >

> > You're saying people should get fired over a course set up, correct?

> > What people, and what legal reason would you or Mr. Hogan use to terminate those people?

> > It's dirt and grass.

> >

>

> Insubordination? Dereliction of duty ? In South Carolina we’d just say “ let me have your keys. Checks in the mail , best of luck “. No need for a reason.

>

> Course setup isn’t what I’m saying. Lack of care in attempts to make greens faster is what I’m saying. As in “ would any greens have died or been severely harmed if no us open this week on this course “? If answer is no , then I don’t understand why it happens short of on purpose. So the responsible parties should find other things to do. Simple.

>

> Incase we forget. **This wasn’t due to weather.** This was due to ego. They’ve tried to let it go thus far a couple times since.

>

> https://www.golfchannel.com/video/last-time-shinnecock-no-7-gets-out-control

 

LOL. Firstly this was FIFTEEN years ago.

 

Secondly, you post a silly video instead of trying to find something on it ?

 

"It wasn't due to the weather" ??? Really ?

 

"Mike Davis acknowledged the trying conditions that everyone faced seven years ago, **when sun and wind dried out several of Shinnecock's greens on Sunday** and threatened to compromise the championship."

 

"It was a great learning experience," Davis said. "When it comes to a U.S. Open, you've got the world's best players, and you're **trying to set it up as the hardest event of the year. It's easy to go from that point to having a setup where well-executed shots are penalized**. And that's exactly what was happening on some of the holes."

 

[https://golfdigest.com/story/with-return-to-shinnecock-usga-turns-page-on-2004-mess](https://www.golfdigest.com/story/with-return-to-shinnecock-usga-turns-page-on-2004-mess "https://golfdigest.com/story/with-return-to-shinnecock-usga-turns-page-on-2004-mess")

 

Or even

 

"Dropping by the NBC booth Sunday morning, then USGA president and now **Augusta National chairman Fred Ridley defended the seventh hole setup, saying it was caused by a “perfect storm” of wind, sun, hole location** and the alleged accidental rolling. When NBC’s Dan Hicks joked that they’d gone from talking about growing the game to growing grass, Ridley didn’t laugh."

 

[https://golfweek.com/2018/06/08/shinnecock-hills-left-major-legacy-on-golf-with-2004-u-s-open/](https://golfweek.com/2018/06/08/shinnecock-hills-left-major-legacy-on-golf-with-2004-u-s-open/ "https://golfweek.com/2018/06/08/shinnecock-hills-left-major-legacy-on-golf-with-2004-u-s-open/")

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > > Justin saying "we don't want to be bratty" seems kind of hollow. What I'd like to see from him is more long-form criticisms, rather than twitter-b**ching. If there are problems, and there certainly have been some with the US Open at times, they're not going to be addressed in 140 characters or less. That will also require a media outlet willing to publish longer-form discussions, and readers willing to go past the big print on the first page of the article.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The USGA doesn't need any more input from anybody. They have received valuable input for quite some time from a variety of sources. They just need to quit worshipping par and quit trying to take the greens to the edge of unplayable.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What's wrong with testing the limits of professional golfers?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nothing. It’s when they cross the limits of the course that heads should roll.

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's test that logic and look at this from a circumstance to which all of us can relate. So when the grounds people at your club put too much sand on the a few greens after punching, the club should fire the people involved with the decision about who purchased the sand?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don’t follow.

> > > >

> > > > I’m saying that when the USga pushes greens to the point of having to paint them because they are dying , then it’s past too far and whom ever made the decision to push them too far shouldn’t be there anymore.

> > >

> > > You're saying people should get fired over a course set up, correct?

> > > What people, and what legal reason would you or Mr. Hogan use to terminate those people?

> > > It's dirt and grass.

> > >

> >

> > Insubordination? Dereliction of duty ? In South Carolina we’d just say “ let me have your keys. Checks in the mail , best of luck “. No need for a reason.

> >

> > Course setup isn’t what I’m saying. Lack of care in attempts to make greens faster is what I’m saying. As in “ would any greens have died or been severely harmed if no us open this week on this course “? If answer is no , then I don’t understand why it happens short of on purpose. So the responsible parties should find other things to do. Simple.

> >

> > Incase we forget. **This wasn’t due to weather.** This was due to ego. They’ve tried to let it go thus far a couple times since.

> >

> > https://www.golfchannel.com/video/last-time-shinnecock-no-7-gets-out-control

>

> LOL. Firstly this was FIFTEEN years ago.

>

> Secondly, you post a silly video instead of trying to find something on it ?

>

> "It wasn't due to the weather" ??? Really ?

>

> "Mike Davis acknowledged the trying conditions that everyone faced seven years ago, **when sun and wind dried out several of Shinnecock's greens on Sunday** and threatened to compromise the championship."

>

> "It was a great learning experience," Davis said. "When it comes to a U.S. Open, you've got the world's best players, and you're **trying to set it up as the hardest event of the year. It's easy to go from that point to having a setup where well-executed shots are penalized**. And that's exactly what was happening on some of the holes."

>

> [https://golfdigest.com/story/with-return-to-shinnecock-usga-turns-page-on-2004-mess](https://www.golfdigest.com/story/with-return-to-shinnecock-usga-turns-page-on-2004-mess "https://golfdigest.com/story/with-return-to-shinnecock-usga-turns-page-on-2004-mess")

>

> Or even

>

> "Dropping by the NBC booth Sunday morning, then USGA president and now **Augusta National chairman Fred Ridley defended the seventh hole setup, saying it was caused by a “perfect storm” of wind, sun, hole location** and the alleged accidental rolling. When NBC’s Dan Hicks joked that they’d gone from talking about growing the game to growing grass, Ridley didn’t laugh."

>

> [https://golfweek.com/2018/06/08/shinnecock-hills-left-major-legacy-on-golf-with-2004-u-s-open/](https://golfweek.com/2018/06/08/shinnecock-hills-left-major-legacy-on-golf-with-2004-u-s-open/ "https://golfweek.com/2018/06/08/shinnecock-hills-left-major-legacy-on-golf-with-2004-u-s-open/")

 

You do know that man has ways of combating wind and sun , yes ? And that answer isn’t 22 seconds with a syringe hose.

[bladehunter]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Justin saying "we don't want to be bratty" seems kind of hollow. What I'd like to see from him is more long-form criticisms, rather than twitter-b**ching. If there are problems, and there certainly have been some with the US Open at times, they're not going to be addressed in 140 characters or less. That will also require a media outlet willing to publish longer-form discussions, and readers willing to go past the big print on the first page of the article.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The USGA doesn't need any more input from anybody. They have received valuable input for quite some time from a variety of sources. They just need to quit worshipping par and quit trying to take the greens to the edge of unplayable.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What's wrong with testing the limits of professional golfers?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Nothing. It’s when they cross the limits of the course that heads should roll.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Let's test that logic and look at this from a circumstance to which all of us can relate. So when the grounds people at your club put too much sand on the a few greens after punching, the club should fire the people involved with the decision about who purchased the sand?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don’t follow.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’m saying that when the USga pushes greens to the point of having to paint them because they are dying , then it’s past too far and whom ever made the decision to push them too far shouldn’t be there anymore.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're saying people should get fired over a course set up, correct?

> > > > > What people, and what legal reason would you or Mr. Hogan use to terminate those people?

> > > > > It's dirt and grass.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm sure the USGA executive team, like all at the USGA , is At Will Employed. Don't need cause for termination. They have a broken culture, out of touch with everyone whom they represent, executed too many things poorly, been way behind managing the introduction of technology into the game and equipment. Their incompetence has made the US Open the laughing stock of majors because they are arrogant and/or incompetent. I'm sure there are many good people with good intentions in the organization, but are stymied by a stagnant and arrogant executive culture.

> > >

> > > And what other large American organization isn't those things? It's the American culture that drives behavior like this; more specifically our feeling that bigger is always better. We Americans are fascinated with "giantism." We made the USGA what it is today.

> > >

> > > Re: Introduction of tech?

> > > Manufacturing and Marketing drives tech.

> > >

> > > Re: British Open

> > > The Euros do a great job with their Open because they have restraint.

> > > We have 35 varieties of coffee, and we want 30 more, NOW!

> > >

> > > The USGA has an abundance of resources, and no talent at the top. Course set-up should be at the bottom of the list.

> > > They, like a good bunch of Americans, need to align their priorities (with the right people and culture, course set-up will fall into place).

> >

> > I don’t disagree. But don’t you kill a snake from the head? I wasn’t talking about firing greenskeepers. I’m talking the puppet masters telling those guys what to do.

>

> Are you serious? Clearly you never worked in a corporate environment.

> What does a CEO or a COO know about turf? Rhetorical.

>

 

 

Answer is nothing. But. The behavior hasn’t really ceased. Same as poop rolls down hill in day to day business life , when it comes time to clean house you start at the top of the hill and cut cancer until it’s clean tissue. If you want change. Now if you want a PR move for a bandaid , Sure. Fire the greens staff. Lol. Cause you know they are making the ultimate decisions.

 

I understand what you’re saying. Reality is what you describe. But what I’m saying is how it should be. The blame should go to the guys calling the shots . Davis is that guy. And he’s no greenskeeper.

[North Texas]

> @farmer said:

> I have no problem with a difficult set up for the Open. I do object to a professionally well played shot that does not yield at least an acceptable result. When that standard is not met, then the set up has gone too far.

 

So I'm assuming that you object to the same professional well played shots during the Open Championship that does not yield at least an acceptable result.

[DatSliceDoe]

Late to the thread, but the USGA is a friggin disgrace. I can only hope nothing stupid happens at a legendary venue such as Pebble. Can't be that hard to get it right, the hold another tourney every year.

 

Also, the USGA rule changes as well I can't get behind some of them, others yes... but many of them were simply unnecessary.

[Birdie Mac]

> @JohnnyCashForever said:

> I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'm going to make an argument for the USGA that its apologists are too lazy or stupid to make on their own.

>

> Since Mike Davis's tenure, the US Open has produced the most number of "worthy" winners among the three majors with a full field. To keep it objective, I'm defining "worthy" as multiple major champions. It could be defined in a more qualitative way, but I think the results would be similar. Mike Davis took over the US Open set up in 1997. Since then, there have been 22 US and British Opens, and 23 PGA Championships. Here are the number of "worthy" winners in that span:

>

> US Open: 15/22 (68%)

> The British Open: 12/22 (55%)

> The PGA Championship: 13/23 (57%)

>

> BTW, the Masters had the highest percentage of worthy winners, 17/23 (74%), but the field in that major is limited and thus more likely to produce a worthy winner.

>

> The US Open produces more worthy winners!

>

> I'm sure there are many more objective arguments one could make for the USGA instead of reflexively genuflecting to the blue blazer, but I think I've done my part.

>

>

>

If there's a better way to frame an argument than to start it by calling people lazy or stupid, I've not seen it.

 

Your argument is not unreasonable, but doesn't take into account a host of other factors and could be due to a statistical anomaly. Would be interesting to compare this time period to the 22 years before Davis took over. I'd do the calculations, but...well, you know why.

[Mikey5e]

Every golf purist wants to see the professionals challenged when playing, especially at the US Open. Maybe the PGA professionals have been spoiled too much with all the hyped up equipment and relative easy layout of courses. Nothing like watching the US Open and see the professionals struggle, that really makes for great TV!

[Terry Gold]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"Terry Gold" said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @"Darth Putter" said:

> > > > > Justin Thomas still not happy with USGA and was not one of the people quoted in the article.

> > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/justin-thomas-remains-upset-with-the-usga-hopes-players-will-keep-calling-out-the-governing-body

> > > > >

> > > > > Rory willing to give USGA benefit of the doubt for now.

> > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rory-mcilroy-says-players-should-give-usga-chance-to-redeem-itself-at-pebble-beach

> > > >

> > > > Rory also said in the presser that they should use people who setup courses everyday for setup. He didn’t really cut them much slack. Just side stepped the heat on him.

> > >

> > > I think that both Rory and Justin would like the courses to be set up by the PGA Tour staff, because they prefer the conditions they see on the PGA Tour every week. I said it before, most of these guys hate being forced to change, to adapt to differing conditions, to learn different rules. That doesn't defend the USGA's past mistakes, but I prefer to see the players severely tested, I don't care to see "another week on the PGA Tour".

> >

> > But that isn't what Rory said at all. To the contrary in fact:

> > “I guess in my head growing up watching the U.S. Opens, that was what my perception of a U.S. Open was. It was tight fairways, it was thick rough. It was a premium on accuracy and precision,” McIlroy said. “And I think some of the golf courses we played and some of the setups over the last couple of years have went a little bit away from that. We play one Open Championship a year; we don't need to play two. I think it’s just lost its identity in terms of what it is, and I’d like to see them go back to that, because it worked. It really worked.”

> >

> >

>

> He did say “ I don’t setup golf courses and I don’t setup tournaments. I think they should seek the advise of those that do. “. Go to the 115 mark here and Listen. Or better. Just listen to it all.

>

> https://www.golfchannel.com/news/rory-mcilroy-could-be-problem-if-usga-cant-redeem-themselves-pebble-beach

 

So what? I'm not going to rehash what the poster said that I was responding to, but obviously you are hell bent on your own agenda.

If you have an argument to make, make it. Don't ask someone to go listen to some interview and do it for you.

[bladehunter]

> @"Terry Gold" said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @"Terry Gold" said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @"Darth Putter" said:

> > > > > > Justin Thomas still not happy with USGA and was not one of the people quoted in the article.

> > > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/justin-thomas-remains-upset-with-the-usga-hopes-players-will-keep-calling-out-the-governing-body

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rory willing to give USGA benefit of the doubt for now.

> > > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rory-mcilroy-says-players-should-give-usga-chance-to-redeem-itself-at-pebble-beach

> > > > >

> > > > > Rory also said in the presser that they should use people who setup courses everyday for setup. He didn’t really cut them much slack. Just side stepped the heat on him.

> > > >

> > > > I think that both Rory and Justin would like the courses to be set up by the PGA Tour staff, because they prefer the conditions they see on the PGA Tour every week. I said it before, most of these guys hate being forced to change, to adapt to differing conditions, to learn different rules. That doesn't defend the USGA's past mistakes, but I prefer to see the players severely tested, I don't care to see "another week on the PGA Tour".

> > >

> > > But that isn't what Rory said at all. To the contrary in fact:

> > > “I guess in my head growing up watching the U.S. Opens, that was what my perception of a U.S. Open was. It was tight fairways, it was thick rough. It was a premium on accuracy and precision,” McIlroy said. “And I think some of the golf courses we played and some of the setups over the last couple of years have went a little bit away from that. We play one Open Championship a year; we don't need to play two. I think it’s just lost its identity in terms of what it is, and I’d like to see them go back to that, because it worked. It really worked.”

> > >

> > >

> >

> > He did say “ I don’t setup golf courses and I don’t setup tournaments. I think they should seek the advise of those that do. “. Go to the 115 mark here and Listen. Or better. Just listen to it all.

> >

> > https://www.golfchannel.com/news/rory-mcilroy-could-be-problem-if-usga-cant-redeem-themselves-pebble-beach

>

> So what? I'm not going to rehash what the poster said that I was responding to, but obviously you are **** bent on your own agenda.

> If you have an argument to make, make it. Don't ask someone to go listen to some interview and do it for you.

 

No need to get huffy. I didn’t say your quote was incorrect. I simply was adding to it. He also said what I quoted earlier then linked in a video. Argument already made.

 

It appeared to me that you were replying to me. If this new system has caused a misunderstanding, I apologize.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Phil just said that if it doesn’t rain that the USga will 100 % screw it up . Went on to say that in every us open he’s played in that didn’t rain , they couldn’t help themselves. And added in that it rained Thursday and friday at shinecock ( I don’t know if that’s true or not ) and still lost it.