I know jacked lofts has been done to death...

[Red4282]

> @timbo08 said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > @Red4282 said:

> > >

> > > Lol this is the most laughable thing I've read in a while, and frankly i cannot believe you are a fitter...

> > > Your first paragraph is using two 6 irons with different lofts. Do the same example with an older set with a 5 iron at the same loft and length. If you flip the club and add loft at impact, nothing changes... except the number on the bottom and your naive perception your magically hitting it further.

> > >

> > > You say this person with a major swing flaw like flipping wouldnt be able to change in a lesson two. Perhaps. But 2 lessons is what maybe 200? These irons are what 1200? Lol thats 10 more lessons the dude could get. If anything your doing a disservice to this player, selling him snake oil. I know even if you told them hey 10 lessons would do you better there would still be guys that buy the clubs because its “funner” to buy new clubs and who wants to work at getting better.

> > >

> >

> > Have fun, man. Think what you want to think but you're dead wrong and just can't admit it so you are resorting to personal attacks. I do just fine as well and can send you the emails of over 200 happy clients from the 2018-2019 season if you want. When I showed you that you can gap the set properly as you said was impossible you ignored that as well.

> >

> > If I fit strictly off a static length of a 6i at 37.5" (which I do, and so does Club Champion, TXG, Cool Clubs, Hot Stix, and True Spec...aka all the well known and half-way respected fitters) then if I have a 30* 6i vs. a 24* 6i exactly what I am talking about changes, the dynamic loft at impact. Now, let's use your example of a 4i from 1999 such as the Cobra Gravity Backs, Mizuno MP-14, Titleist DCI 981, and Ping i3, all of which are 38.25" long, which gives you a proper dynamic loft but now you are introducing roughly 0.75" in extra length in the player's hands which is not a great thing unless they are super tall. If you cut it to match then you are significantly reducing swingweight and also stiffening the shaft a bit, things you don't necessarily want to do.

> >

> > I think you also need to address your lesson idea. A 6 pack of lessons is close to $500 CAD from PGA Superstore. What I outlined, unless you are teaching a super star student (engaging hip and core rotation, passive hands, and influencing a more downward AoA) is usually not a 6-lesson experience. As I said, it can sometimes be a season-long overhaul (or more...I know some people that are on about year 3 of this) at probably 2x a month which is $2400 CAD, the exact same price as the irons. GolfTec lessons cost even more, so do reputable teaching pros (probably closer to $200 per lesson CAD).

> >

> > Again, think what you want to think and call me a snake oil salesman all you want but I don't see many people here helping much either suggesting literally the hardest clubs in the world to hit for beginners all because *gasp* it has a 6i that sits at 27* or less. Holy cow the entire golf industry is going to come crumbling down because Joe Normal hits an iron that isn't traditional lofts and now gained a club in a miseleading way!!!!!! Play what works for you and don't worry about other people. If someone has the money for the clubs and adds 3-4* of dynamic loft at impact and this club fits them well and helps them lower their scores, who cares? The golf ball doesn't care what is hitting it, and if the numbers are optimal then they are optimal. BTW, these specs have been used in Japan for a super long time and nobody over there is crying about it. I am done posting in this thread as I have said all I need to say, it is up to you all to now choose to understand it or not.

>

> I am not trying to add fuel to the fire as I am generally curious on this topic. I found myself in the jacked lofts are a joke campaign for a while, but at the same time I am a sucker for a good story and like buying new gear so I don't complete dismiss the high launch argument. So here's the deal I have a set of 2009 X-Forged that I love, and have played on and off since I got them in 2010.

>

> The 5 iron on the 2009 X Forged is 27 degrees of loft, 61 degree lie angle and 38 inches long. If I wanted to get into the 2019 Callaway Epic Forged as an upgrade, what difference would I see between the 7 iron in the Epic Forged Set which is 27 degrees of loft, 37.625 inches (so 3/8ths of an inch shorter) and 61 degree lie angle.

>

> In theory, assuming I can properly hit a 27 degree club, the 5 iron should go further correct since it is longer and I can handle it? Or does the 7 iron go further because it launches higher with the appropriate amount of spin? This is assuming I deliver the club with the proper amount of dynamic loft at impact of course in both cases, what difference would I see with the same PX 6.0 shaft in both?

>

> If there is a difference, what part of that difference is attributed to new technology and not just stamping a 7 on a 5 iron?

 

Good post, this is the discussion we should be having. 3/8ths extra length will not provide much distance, not as much as people would think. Maybe a yard or two. The 7 iron in the epic forged line will go farther based on one thing- lower spin rates. For some, this is good. But its a fine line, that if you hit one high on the face, or get a flyer, or a wet ball- all things that will take spin off, the ball is dropping out of the air and losing alot of distance. The lack of consistent distance dispersion is off-putting to most better players. So long story short the 7 would go further-most of the time.

Thats a good way to think of it- its like they engineered a way to give you a flyer lie. All good until you get an actual flyer lie, or any other way a golf course can take your spin. Which also shows why a fitting in a mat indoor with a launch monitor isnt always best.

[timbo08]

> @Red4282 said:

> > @timbo08 said:

> > > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > > @Red4282 said:

> > > >

> > > > Lol this is the most laughable thing I've read in a while, and frankly i cannot believe you are a fitter...

> > > > Your first paragraph is using two 6 irons with different lofts. Do the same example with an older set with a 5 iron at the same loft and length. If you flip the club and add loft at impact, nothing changes... except the number on the bottom and your naive perception your magically hitting it further.

> > > >

> > > > You say this person with a major swing flaw like flipping wouldnt be able to change in a lesson two. Perhaps. But 2 lessons is what maybe 200? These irons are what 1200? Lol thats 10 more lessons the dude could get. If anything your doing a disservice to this player, selling him snake oil. I know even if you told them hey 10 lessons would do you better there would still be guys that buy the clubs because its “funner” to buy new clubs and who wants to work at getting better.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Have fun, man. Think what you want to think but you're dead wrong and just can't admit it so you are resorting to personal attacks. I do just fine as well and can send you the emails of over 200 happy clients from the 2018-2019 season if you want. When I showed you that you can gap the set properly as you said was impossible you ignored that as well.

> > >

> > > If I fit strictly off a static length of a 6i at 37.5" (which I do, and so does Club Champion, TXG, Cool Clubs, Hot Stix, and True Spec...aka all the well known and half-way respected fitters) then if I have a 30* 6i vs. a 24* 6i exactly what I am talking about changes, the dynamic loft at impact. Now, let's use your example of a 4i from 1999 such as the Cobra Gravity Backs, Mizuno MP-14, Titleist DCI 981, and Ping i3, all of which are 38.25" long, which gives you a proper dynamic loft but now you are introducing roughly 0.75" in extra length in the player's hands which is not a great thing unless they are super tall. If you cut it to match then you are significantly reducing swingweight and also stiffening the shaft a bit, things you don't necessarily want to do.

> > >

> > > I think you also need to address your lesson idea. A 6 pack of lessons is close to $500 CAD from PGA Superstore. What I outlined, unless you are teaching a super star student (engaging hip and core rotation, passive hands, and influencing a more downward AoA) is usually not a 6-lesson experience. As I said, it can sometimes be a season-long overhaul (or more...I know some people that are on about year 3 of this) at probably 2x a month which is $2400 CAD, the exact same price as the irons. GolfTec lessons cost even more, so do reputable teaching pros (probably closer to $200 per lesson CAD).

> > >

> > > Again, think what you want to think and call me a snake oil salesman all you want but I don't see many people here helping much either suggesting literally the hardest clubs in the world to hit for beginners all because *gasp* it has a 6i that sits at 27* or less. Holy cow the entire golf industry is going to come crumbling down because Joe Normal hits an iron that isn't traditional lofts and now gained a club in a miseleading way!!!!!! Play what works for you and don't worry about other people. If someone has the money for the clubs and adds 3-4* of dynamic loft at impact and this club fits them well and helps them lower their scores, who cares? The golf ball doesn't care what is hitting it, and if the numbers are optimal then they are optimal. BTW, these specs have been used in Japan for a super long time and nobody over there is crying about it. I am done posting in this thread as I have said all I need to say, it is up to you all to now choose to understand it or not.

> >

> > I am not trying to add fuel to the fire as I am generally curious on this topic. I found myself in the jacked lofts are a joke campaign for a while, but at the same time I am a sucker for a good story and like buying new gear so I don't complete dismiss the high launch argument. So here's the deal I have a set of 2009 X-Forged that I love, and have played on and off since I got them in 2010.

> >

> > The 5 iron on the 2009 X Forged is 27 degrees of loft, 61 degree lie angle and 38 inches long. If I wanted to get into the 2019 Callaway Epic Forged as an upgrade, what difference would I see between the 7 iron in the Epic Forged Set which is 27 degrees of loft, 37.625 inches (so 3/8ths of an inch shorter) and 61 degree lie angle.

> >

> > In theory, assuming I can properly hit a 27 degree club, the 5 iron should go further correct since it is longer and I can handle it? Or does the 7 iron go further because it launches higher with the appropriate amount of spin? This is assuming I deliver the club with the proper amount of dynamic loft at impact of course in both cases, what difference would I see with the same PX 6.0 shaft in both?

> >

> > If there is a difference, what part of that difference is attributed to new technology and not just stamping a 7 on a 5 iron?

>

> Good post, this is the discussion we should be having. 3/8ths extra length will not provide much distance, not as much as people would think. Maybe a yard or two. The 7 iron in the epic forged line will go farther based on one thing- lower spin rates. For some, this is good. But its a fine line, that if you hit one high on the face, or get a flyer, or a wet ball- all things that will take spin off, the ball is dropping out of the air and losing alot of distance. The lack of consistent distance dispersion is off-putting to most better players. So long story short the 7 would go further-most of the time.

> Thats a good way to think of it- its like they engineered a way to give you a flyer lie. All good until you get an actual flyer lie, or any other way a golf course can take your spin. Which also shows why a fitting in a mat indoor with a launch monitor isnt always best.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, much appreciated! Would the low spin impact the peak height? Or would it essentially fly on the same trajectory but just further and then potentially roll out more due to the lower spin?

[Red4282]

> @timbo08 said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> > > @timbo08 said:

> > > > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > > > @Red4282 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > Lol this is the most laughable thing I've read in a while, and frankly i cannot believe you are a fitter...

> > > > > Your first paragraph is using two 6 irons with different lofts. Do the same example with an older set with a 5 iron at the same loft and length. If you flip the club and add loft at impact, nothing changes... except the number on the bottom and your naive perception your magically hitting it further.

> > > > >

> > > > > You say this person with a major swing flaw like flipping wouldnt be able to change in a lesson two. Perhaps. But 2 lessons is what maybe 200? These irons are what 1200? Lol thats 10 more lessons the dude could get. If anything your doing a disservice to this player, selling him snake oil. I know even if you told them hey 10 lessons would do you better there would still be guys that buy the clubs because its “funner” to buy new clubs and who wants to work at getting better.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Have fun, man. Think what you want to think but you're dead wrong and just can't admit it so you are resorting to personal attacks. I do just fine as well and can send you the emails of over 200 happy clients from the 2018-2019 season if you want. When I showed you that you can gap the set properly as you said was impossible you ignored that as well.

> > > >

> > > > If I fit strictly off a static length of a 6i at 37.5" (which I do, and so does Club Champion, TXG, Cool Clubs, Hot Stix, and True Spec...aka all the well known and half-way respected fitters) then if I have a 30* 6i vs. a 24* 6i exactly what I am talking about changes, the dynamic loft at impact. Now, let's use your example of a 4i from 1999 such as the Cobra Gravity Backs, Mizuno MP-14, Titleist DCI 981, and Ping i3, all of which are 38.25" long, which gives you a proper dynamic loft but now you are introducing roughly 0.75" in extra length in the player's hands which is not a great thing unless they are super tall. If you cut it to match then you are significantly reducing swingweight and also stiffening the shaft a bit, things you don't necessarily want to do.

> > > >

> > > > I think you also need to address your lesson idea. A 6 pack of lessons is close to $500 CAD from PGA Superstore. What I outlined, unless you are teaching a super star student (engaging hip and core rotation, passive hands, and influencing a more downward AoA) is usually not a 6-lesson experience. As I said, it can sometimes be a season-long overhaul (or more...I know some people that are on about year 3 of this) at probably 2x a month which is $2400 CAD, the exact same price as the irons. GolfTec lessons cost even more, so do reputable teaching pros (probably closer to $200 per lesson CAD).

> > > >

> > > > Again, think what you want to think and call me a snake oil salesman all you want but I don't see many people here helping much either suggesting literally the hardest clubs in the world to hit for beginners all because *gasp* it has a 6i that sits at 27* or less. Holy cow the entire golf industry is going to come crumbling down because Joe Normal hits an iron that isn't traditional lofts and now gained a club in a miseleading way!!!!!! Play what works for you and don't worry about other people. If someone has the money for the clubs and adds 3-4* of dynamic loft at impact and this club fits them well and helps them lower their scores, who cares? The golf ball doesn't care what is hitting it, and if the numbers are optimal then they are optimal. BTW, these specs have been used in Japan for a super long time and nobody over there is crying about it. I am done posting in this thread as I have said all I need to say, it is up to you all to now choose to understand it or not.

> > >

> > > I am not trying to add fuel to the fire as I am generally curious on this topic. I found myself in the jacked lofts are a joke campaign for a while, but at the same time I am a sucker for a good story and like buying new gear so I don't complete dismiss the high launch argument. So here's the deal I have a set of 2009 X-Forged that I love, and have played on and off since I got them in 2010.

> > >

> > > The 5 iron on the 2009 X Forged is 27 degrees of loft, 61 degree lie angle and 38 inches long. If I wanted to get into the 2019 Callaway Epic Forged as an upgrade, what difference would I see between the 7 iron in the Epic Forged Set which is 27 degrees of loft, 37.625 inches (so 3/8ths of an inch shorter) and 61 degree lie angle.

> > >

> > > In theory, assuming I can properly hit a 27 degree club, the 5 iron should go further correct since it is longer and I can handle it? Or does the 7 iron go further because it launches higher with the appropriate amount of spin? This is assuming I deliver the club with the proper amount of dynamic loft at impact of course in both cases, what difference would I see with the same PX 6.0 shaft in both?

> > >

> > > If there is a difference, what part of that difference is attributed to new technology and not just stamping a 7 on a 5 iron?

> >

> > Good post, this is the discussion we should be having. 3/8ths extra length will not provide much distance, not as much as people would think. Maybe a yard or two. The 7 iron in the epic forged line will go farther based on one thing- lower spin rates. For some, this is good. But its a fine line, that if you hit one high on the face, or get a flyer, or a wet ball- all things that will take spin off, the ball is dropping out of the air and losing alot of distance. The lack of consistent distance dispersion is off-putting to most better players. So long story short the 7 would go further-most of the time.

> > Thats a good way to think of it- its like they engineered a way to give you a flyer lie. All good until you get an actual flyer lie, or any other way a golf course can take your spin. Which also shows why a fitting in a mat indoor with a launch monitor isnt always best.

>

> Thanks for taking the time to reply, much appreciated! Would the low spin impact the peak height? Or would it essentially fly on the same trajectory but just further and then potentially roll out more due to the lower spin?

 

That honestly would be on an individual basis.. im sure results would be varied due to player. But generally speaking the jacked loft/low spin iron will initially launch higher but have a flatter flight.

[phatchrisrules]

> @timbo08 said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > @Red4282 said:

> > >

> > > Lol this is the most laughable thing I've read in a while, and frankly i cannot believe you are a fitter...

> > > Your first paragraph is using two 6 irons with different lofts. Do the same example with an older set with a 5 iron at the same loft and length. If you flip the club and add loft at impact, nothing changes... except the number on the bottom and your naive perception your magically hitting it further.

> > >

> > > You say this person with a major swing flaw like flipping wouldnt be able to change in a lesson two. Perhaps. But 2 lessons is what maybe 200? These irons are what 1200? Lol thats 10 more lessons the dude could get. If anything your doing a disservice to this player, selling him snake oil. I know even if you told them hey 10 lessons would do you better there would still be guys that buy the clubs because its “funner” to buy new clubs and who wants to work at getting better.

> > >

> >

> > Have fun, man. Think what you want to think but you're dead wrong and just can't admit it so you are resorting to personal attacks. I do just fine as well and can send you the emails of over 200 happy clients from the 2018-2019 season if you want. When I showed you that you can gap the set properly as you said was impossible you ignored that as well.

> >

> > If I fit strictly off a static length of a 6i at 37.5" (which I do, and so does Club Champion, TXG, Cool Clubs, Hot Stix, and True Spec...aka all the well known and half-way respected fitters) then if I have a 30* 6i vs. a 24* 6i exactly what I am talking about changes, the dynamic loft at impact. Now, let's use your example of a 4i from 1999 such as the Cobra Gravity Backs, Mizuno MP-14, Titleist DCI 981, and Ping i3, all of which are 38.25" long, which gives you a proper dynamic loft but now you are introducing roughly 0.75" in extra length in the player's hands which is not a great thing unless they are super tall. If you cut it to match then you are significantly reducing swingweight and also stiffening the shaft a bit, things you don't necessarily want to do.

> >

> > I think you also need to address your lesson idea. A 6 pack of lessons is close to $500 CAD from PGA Superstore. What I outlined, unless you are teaching a super star student (engaging hip and core rotation, passive hands, and influencing a more downward AoA) is usually not a 6-lesson experience. As I said, it can sometimes be a season-long overhaul (or more...I know some people that are on about year 3 of this) at probably 2x a month which is $2400 CAD, the exact same price as the irons. GolfTec lessons cost even more, so do reputable teaching pros (probably closer to $200 per lesson CAD).

> >

> > Again, think what you want to think and call me a snake oil salesman all you want but I don't see many people here helping much either suggesting literally the hardest clubs in the world to hit for beginners all because *gasp* it has a 6i that sits at 27* or less. Holy cow the entire golf industry is going to come crumbling down because Joe Normal hits an iron that isn't traditional lofts and now gained a club in a miseleading way!!!!!! Play what works for you and don't worry about other people. If someone has the money for the clubs and adds 3-4* of dynamic loft at impact and this club fits them well and helps them lower their scores, who cares? The golf ball doesn't care what is hitting it, and if the numbers are optimal then they are optimal. BTW, these specs have been used in Japan for a super long time and nobody over there is crying about it. I am done posting in this thread as I have said all I need to say, it is up to you all to now choose to understand it or not.

>

> I am not trying to add fuel to the fire as I am generally curious on this topic. I found myself in the jacked lofts are a joke campaign for a while, but at the same time I am a sucker for a good story and like buying new gear so I don't complete dismiss the high launch argument. So here's the deal I have a set of 2009 X-Forged that I love, and have played on and off since I got them in 2010.

>

> The 5 iron on the 2009 X Forged is 27 degrees of loft, 61 degree lie angle and 38 inches long. If I wanted to get into the 2019 Callaway Epic Forged as an upgrade, what difference would I see between the 7 iron in the Epic Forged Set which is 27 degrees of loft, 37.625 inches (so 3/8ths of an inch shorter) and 61 degree lie angle.

>

> In theory, assuming I can properly hit a 27 degree club, the 5 iron should go further correct since it is longer and I can handle it? Or does the 7 iron go further because it launches higher with the appropriate amount of spin? This is assuming I deliver the club with the proper amount of dynamic loft at impact of course in both cases, what difference would I see with the same PX 6.0 shaft in both?

>

> If there is a difference, what part of that difference is attributed to new technology and not just stamping a 7 on a 5 iron?

 

I think the 7i would come out on top. The added ball speed of the cupface and lower CoG will cause it to peak higher and thus come down on a steeper descent angle. The wider sole will also cause it launch a touch higher as well. I did this exact test for someone who was looking to combo P790s and P760s. We found with the same shaft, the same lie, and same length, that the P790 was about 4 yards longer, peaked around 6 feet higher, had 1mph more ball speed, and had a touch steeper descent at the same spin rate as the P760.

 

Remember this: ball speed is king. Whatever gives you the most ball speed will always go further, higher, and land more steeply.

[Fade]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > ...a jacked lofted 7-iron that plays as long as a standard 5-iron...

> >

> > There is no such thing as a "standard 5-iron".

> >

>

> I know you have been around long enough to know this. Remember when the standard demo club was a 5 iron? Now it is a 6 iron. You know just saying

 

Nope, now it is a 7 iron. Only makes sense.

[LeoLeo99]

Comparing my current irons to what I played in my "prime" there is a one club difference in the short irons and two clubs difference in the long irons. I just don't understand what there is to argue about. As long as your gapping is proper, what difference does it make what is stamped on the bottom of the club?

 

 

[mogc60]

> @LeoLeo99 said:

> Comparing my current irons to what I played in my "prime" there is a one club difference in the short irons and two clubs difference in the long irons. I just don't understand what there is to argue about. As long as your gapping is proper, what difference does it make what is stamped on the bottom of the club?

>

>

 

Amen my brother.....last I checked 150 yards is 150 yards...hit it 150 with any club you care to.

Playing a guy in match play years ago in the state am...his caddie kept looking in my bag not that I cared. On 13 the guy airmailed the green on a par 3 and says...you don’t hit your irons very far. I said...you’re dormie. Lol 6&5

[MaxRylie222]

Who cares about loft this loft that, I only bring my driver and my putter when I’m golfing.

[gregpepper]

It’s less about the number of the club as much as knowing your yardages and proper gapping. 150 yards is 150 yards. Knowing the proper club to hit in the set your gaming is more important than the actual loft itself.

[Itsjustagame]

Golf isn't a game of how far. It's a game of how close. Every aspect of golf marketing is designed to sell you something that won't help as much as you want to think- which is why the signatures on this forum are full of $500 drivers, $400 dollar putters, $50 a dozen golf balls etc, etc, etc.

[Mikey5e]

> @gregpepper said:

> It’s less about the number of the club as much as knowing your yardages and proper gapping. 150 yards is 150 yards. Knowing the proper club to hit in the set your gaming is more important than the actual loft itself.

 

i think everybody realizes this is the appropriate answer to the lofting issues, even before this thread began, and the other 100 or so identical threads as well. Although, what would people bave to argue about?

[NRJyzr]

> @mogc60 said:

> > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > Comparing my current irons to what I played in my "prime" there is a one club difference in the short irons and two clubs difference in the long irons. I just don't understand what there is to argue about. As long as your gapping is proper, what difference does it make what is stamped on the bottom of the club?

> >

> >

>

> Amen my brother.....last I checked 150 yards is 150 yards...hit it 150 with any club you care to.

> Playing a guy in match play years ago in the state am...his caddie kept looking in my bag not that I cared. On 13 the guy airmailed the green on a par 3 and says...you don’t hit your irons very far. I said...you’re dormie. Lol 6&5

 

It's funny, though, that very few people who say the number doesn't matter will use weaker lofted irons. :smiley:

[North Butte]

Well for what's worth I own a early-90's vintage set of Ping Eye2 iron which are almost precisely one club-number different on the sole than the modern Ping G-series irons I used from 2012-2018. Sure enough, loft for loft I hit the Eye2 "8-iron" about the same distance as the Ping G "9-iron" (both around 40 degrees).

 

But I'll tell you this. Those same-distance shots I hit with each club are straighter, higher flying and softer landing on average with the modern "jacked loft" irons. So I think that disproves the contention that having an "8" instead of a "9" on your 40-degree club offer any sort of advantage ;-)

[Titleist_PT23]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @mogc60 said:

> > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > Comparing my current irons to what I played in my "prime" there is a one club difference in the short irons and two clubs difference in the long irons. I just don't understand what there is to argue about. As long as your gapping is proper, what difference does it make what is stamped on the bottom of the club?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Amen my brother.....last I checked 150 yards is 150 yards...hit it 150 with any club you care to.

> > Playing a guy in match play years ago in the state am...his caddie kept looking in my bag not that I cared. On 13 the guy airmailed the green on a par 3 and says...you don’t hit your irons very far. I said...you’re dormie. Lol 6&5

>

> It's funny, though, that very few people who say the number doesn't matter will use weaker lofted irons. :smiley:

I go back to the earlier statement that just as many people have an ego in playing a 48*+ PW. They think it's better (or maybe they are better as a result). There seems to be a lot of pride in saying "I bent clubs weak" whereas you could pretty much accomplish the same thing bending clubs strong and just having your set stop one iron earlier (offset and bounce differences aside and this may not be doable if the set is only made to a "PW").

 

Look at my AP1 example above. If loft is loft, you shouldn't care whether its stamped W2, they make it stronger yet and call it W3, or they make a retro retro set to call it a PW again. Yet, there's a lot of negative comments about "jacked lofts." Why?

[NRJyzr]

> @agolf1 said:

> I go back to the earlier statement that just as many people have an ego in playing a 48*+ PW. They think it's better (or maybe they are better as a result). There seems to be a lot of pride in saying "I bent clubs weak" whereas you could pretty much accomplish the same thing bending clubs strong and just having your set stop one iron earlier (offset and bounce differences aside and this may not be doable if the set is only made to a "PW").

 

Speaking for myself, I don't think it applies. Or, I'd like to think that way, LOL. I've bent clubs weak recently, but my reasons were related to the loft starting point of the set, where I wanted to go in terms of loft, and what would happen to the bounce.

 

In one case, I bent a Golden Ram set from 1980, which had a 50* or 51* PW and 20* 2 iron, to even 4* gaps from 20* to 52*. I'm not fond of 3* gaps in long irons if I can avoid them, and this allowed me to avoid dig soles and/or crazy offset.

 

Another set are FX Nickel Rams. I had those bent to 20-23.5-27 for 3-5 (std was 21/24/27), and 4* from there to 47* at PW. Add a GW and I'm pretty close to the above set, just with different numbers. Which is what I was seeking.

 

>

> Look at my AP1 example above. If loft is loft, you shouldn't care whether its stamped W2, they make it stronger yet and call it W3, or they make a retro retro set to call it a PW again. Yet, there's a lot of negative comments about "jacked lofts." Why?

 

Because it's wrapped in ludicrous, illogical, marketing untruth. "The CG has moved lower and farther back, so we've reduced lofts to compensate" is what they usually say, or something similar. Looking at CG information, it's pretty apparent that hasn't happened. MP-14s had a rather low CG, lower than almost everything on the current market, complete with a 50* PW and 20* 2 iron.

 

I personally prefer a little more reality in my golf clubs. I also hated the 12* drivers with 8.5* stamped on the soles that were so common 15-20 years ago.

 

 

[North Butte]

> @NRJyzr said:

> I personally prefer a little more reality in my golf clubs.

 

To paraphrase Jack Nicholson, "Reality? You can't handle the Reality!".

[greenwavegolfer]

To me loft is loft, it doesn't matter if they're stamping "4" or "5" on it, whatever, it is what it is. To me the gapping is what's important and I don't think it's something people consider enough when it comes to the existence/necessity of stronger irons. If you take a traditional set with 4° gaps between the short and mid-irons and move into 3° gaps in the longer irons you're going to get different things out of different golfers. A player with higher swing speed (a Tour Pro for example) who strikes the ball well and gets proper impact position can easily get 15 yard gaps with 4° loft differences. Slower swingers who and/or those who are inconsistent with strike or impact position are going to struggle to get to 10 yards at the most on shorter clubs. There is a need for the loft progression to increase for certain players and that means that you're going to get long irons that are a club or more stronger than a "traditional" set.

 

That doesn't make either good or bad. There are golfers who need the 5° gaps between their PW and 9i and between their 9i and 8i instead of 4°and need a 4° gap between their 4i and 5i instead of 3°. If you do that you might start with a PW that's only a degree strong (or half a club) but by the time you get down to the 4i you're more than a club strong because you're picking up a degree more in each gap up to a certain point. All that means is to cover a, let's say, 21° - 46° gap you only need 7 clubs instead of 8 to cover it because you don't have the speed to get the proper gapping throwing an extra club in there.

 

And as far as having to throw an extra wedge in there at the bottom that doesn't seem to be an issue for a lot of golfers that GI irons are designed for. Not many of them have the speed or skill to maximize a 15° 3 wood, especially off the deck. They'd be much better off going with a 4 or 5 wood into their longest iron (or a hybrid) which gives them plenty of room to add a club at the bottom. Basically where a better and faster player might game a setup of: D/3W/5W/3i-PW/Gap/Sand/Lob/Putter the slower player who GI irons are designed for could easily run a D/4 or 5W/4i-P/AW/GW/SW/LW/Putter. They just space out the lofts differently and add a club at the end. Hell you could change the numbers if you want and keep the high end the same and make the wedges higher lofts because the gaps are larger. It's two sides of the same coin and just symantics at that point. There is a need for what GI irons offer in terms of larger gaps and easier launch and we shouldn't be so caught up in naming of anything.

[NRJyzr]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @NRJyzr said:

> > I personally prefer a little more reality in my golf clubs.

>

> To paraphrase Jack Nicholson, "Reality? You can't handle the Reality!".

 

Well played, Mauer

:)

[Titleist_PT23]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > I go back to the earlier statement that just as many people have an ego in playing a 48*+ PW. They think it's better (or maybe they are better as a result). There seems to be a lot of pride in saying "I bent clubs weak" whereas you could pretty much accomplish the same thing bending clubs strong and just having your set stop one iron earlier (offset and bounce differences aside and this may not be doable if the set is only made to a "PW").

>

> Speaking for myself, I don't think it applies. Or, I'd like to think that way, LOL. I've bent clubs weak recently, but my reasons were related to the loft starting point of the set, where I wanted to go in terms of loft, and what would happen to the bounce.

>

> In one case, I bent a Golden Ram set from 1980, which had a 50* or 51* PW and 20* 2 iron, to even 4* gaps from 20* to 52*. I'm not fond of 3* gaps in long irons if I can avoid them, and this allowed me to avoid dig soles and/or crazy offset.

>

> Another set are FX Nickel Rams. I had those bent to 20-23.5-27 for 3-5 (std was 21/24/27), and 4* from there to 47* at PW. Add a GW and I'm pretty close to the above set, just with different numbers. Which is what I was seeking.

>

> >

> > Look at my AP1 example above. If loft is loft, you shouldn't care whether its stamped W2, they make it stronger yet and call it W3, or they make a retro retro set to call it a PW again. Yet, there's a lot of negative comments about "jacked lofts." Why?

>

> Because it's wrapped in ludicrous, illogical, marketing untruth. "The CG has moved lower and farther back, so we've reduced lofts to compensate" is what they usually say, or something similar. Looking at CG information, it's pretty apparent that hasn't happened. MP-14s had a rather low CG, lower than almost everything on the current market, complete with a 50* PW and 20* 2 iron.

>

> I personally prefer a little more reality in my golf clubs. I also hated the 12* drivers with 8.5* stamped on the soles that were so common 15-20 years ago.

OK, fair enough. I do think the compressed gaps in the lower lofted irons in many of these sets are kind of useless for many of the players that buy them.

 

If you look at the i210, you can literally get the same loft in the PowerSpec X iron vs. RetroSpec X-1 iron. Maybe the PW you still need to be off a degree if you are only willing to bend a max of 2* either way. In a situation like this, if someone says they bent them weak because they like less offset or are just use to iron X going Y yards or they are matching the gap to a certain wedge setup that's fine. When the comment simply/only starts with the premise that a 45* "PW" is stupid (vs. my set from the past etc or fake marketing claims) I just don't get it.

[Red4282]

Oh heres some proof.. ball speed was actually down. Only difference was about 500 revs less. Everything else was identical from a 7 iron EF to a traditional lofted 5 iron.

 

[Titleist_PT23]

BTW, fairway woods have "jacked lofts" too. A 18* 5-wood? Was 21* at some point. Why no complaints here?

[Red4282]

> @agolf1 said:

> BTW, fairway woods have "jacked lofts" too. A 18* 5-wood? Was 21* at some point. Why no complaints here?

 

I think there is a misunderstanding. No one is complaining about the golfers who are using jacked lofts. We are just calling out the scam like marketing these companies and fitters are using.

[NRJyzr]

> @agolf1 said:

> BTW, fairway woods have "jacked lofts" too. A 18* 5-wood? Was 21* at some point. Why no complaints here?

 

You may have missed it. It was a subject with a fair bit of discussion in the mid-to-late 90s on the early golf forums, and even rec.sport.golf on Usenet. It isn't any longer because they haven't continued delofting. A 13* or 14* 5w would probably be analogous to modern iron lofts, LOL.

 

21* is even a delofted version of the 5w. Its not all that long ago that 2 woods were 14*, with a 3* progression from there to the 5w at 23*. In the 80s, that seems to have crept forward a degree for some, at least based on my Golden Ram persimmons, which were 16/19/22 for 3/4/5.

[North Butte]

> @NRJyzr said:

> You may have missed it. It was a subject with a fair bit of discussion in the mid-to-late 90s on the early golf forums, and even rec.sport.golf on Usenet.

 

Actually this whole discussion so much reminds me of circa 1996 on rec.sport.golf that I sometimes wonder if it's exactly the same people whining about "jacked lofts" on GolfWRX today who were banging on about it 20+ years ago on Usenet.

 

I have this mental image of a then-40-year-old Usenet nerd graduating from one generation of online technology to the next, carrying forward the same tired wheeze no matter what the forum. Now he's in his mid-60's and posting jacked-loft jeremiads from his iPhone. Progress!

 

[Titleist_PT23]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > BTW, fairway woods have "jacked lofts" too. A 18* 5-wood? Was 21* at some point. Why no complaints here?

>

> You may have missed it. It was a subject with a fair bit of discussion in the mid-to-late 90s on the early golf forums, and even rec.sport.golf on Usenet. It isn't any longer because they haven't continued delofting. A 13* or 14* 5w would probably be analogous to modern iron lofts, LOL.

>

> 21* is even a delofted version of the 5w. Its not all that long ago that 2 woods were 14*, with a 3* progression from there to the 5w at 23*. In the 80s, that seems to have crept forward a degree for some, at least based on my Golden Ram persimmons, which were 16/19/22 for 3/4/5.

Yeah, I just saw an old TaylorMade 5 wood for sale with 23 degrees loft. This must have been late 80s or early 90s, as I think they had a 15 degree 3-wood and a 21 degree 5-wood when I first picked them up (Burner Plus model with Tour Preferred on the crown). But I guess you are right. Even the Big Bertha Warbrids from mid-90s were not that different vs. today's offerings.

[Bad9]

> @Red4282 said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > BTW, fairway woods have "jacked lofts" too. A 18* 5-wood? Was 21* at some point. Why no complaints here?

>

> I think there is a misunderstanding. No one is complaining about the golfers who are using jacked lofts. We are just calling out the scam like marketing these companies and fitters are using.

 

You haven't been reading close enough. Not only are some(I don't know if you did) are complaining about, and even more common, ridiculing golfers using clubs with jacked lofts.

[North Butte]

> @Bad9 said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > BTW, fairway woods have "jacked lofts" too. A 18* 5-wood? Was 21* at some point. Why no complaints here?

> >

> > I think there is a misunderstanding. No one is complaining about the golfers who are using jacked lofts. We are just calling out the scam like marketing these companies and fitters are using.

>

> You haven't been reading close enough. Not only are some(I don't know if you did) are complaining about, and even more common, ridiculing golfers using clubs with jacked lofts.

 

That is amazing. Posting in a thread that was started entirely as a complaint about "jacked lofts", which is itself a loaded term intended to be derogatory (although it probably says more about the person using it than it does about the target of his ire) and saying nobody is complaining about golfers using jacked lofts.

 

The only juice that keeps these threads in constant use on every golf forum is crocodile tears of "concern" about all those poor morons playing irons with the wrong numbers stamped on the sole. And how the big, bad golf equipment companies are lying to those deluded saps and making them think they are so much better than they really are.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @Red4282 said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > BTW, fairway woods have "jacked lofts" too. A 18* 5-wood? Was 21* at some point. Why no complaints here?

>

> I think there is a misunderstanding. No one is complaining about the golfers who are using jacked lofts. We are just calling out the scam like marketing these companies and fitters are using.

Maybe so. But many of the comments imply that the people using the jacked lofts are inferior. Either they need a less lofted club to hit a 7-iron X yards or they are too stupid to understand that they aren't hitting the ball farther.

 

As for the Public Service Announcement and making sure golfers are not confused, I would love to know how many people here work for an NGO or volunteer their time (when not golfing) to make sure people are "informed" about all of the false truths being pushed around out there in the world today. For people that don't care, they seem to care a lot.

[Red4282]

> @Bad9 said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > BTW, fairway woods have "jacked lofts" too. A 18* 5-wood? Was 21* at some point. Why no complaints here?

> >

> > I think there is a misunderstanding. No one is complaining about the golfers who are using jacked lofts. We are just calling out the scam like marketing these companies and fitters are using.

>

> You haven't been reading close enough. Not only are some(I don't know if you did) are complaining about, and even more common, ridiculing golfers using clubs with jacked lofts.

 

Well im sure there are some, but still confuses me. If a guy is hitting traditional lofted clubs he is either- really good and could care less about other golfers- or is just old school and is grumpy- which happens with everything in life. Im certainly not one, if golfers want to waste their money so be it. But my take on it all is more of a mythbuster type approach to the marketing behind it.

 

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @Bad9 said:

> > > @Red4282 said:

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > BTW, fairway woods have "jacked lofts" too. A 18* 5-wood? Was 21* at some point. Why no complaints here?

> > >

> > > I think there is a misunderstanding. No one is complaining about the golfers who are using jacked lofts. We are just calling out the scam like marketing these companies and fitters are using.

> >

> > You haven't been reading close enough. Not only are some(I don't know if you did) are complaining about, and even more common, ridiculing golfers using clubs with jacked lofts.

>

> That is amazing. Posting in a thread that was started entirely as a complaint about "jacked lofts", which is itself a loaded term intended to be derogatory (although it probably says more about the person using it than it does about the target of his ire) and saying nobody is complaining about golfers using jacked lofts.

>

> The only juice that keeps these threads in constant use on every golf forum is crocodile tears of "concern" about all those poor morons playing irons with the wrong numbers stamped on the sole. And how the big, bad golf equipment companies are lying to those deluded saps and making them think they are so much better than they really are.

 

Jacked lofts is loaded and derogatory? My goodness dude, thats awfully sensitive. Why cant someone come on the forums and bust some myths? Fact is there seems to be many golfers who enjoy their jacked loft fantasies and they seem to be uber sensitive to this subject. Good news is they can only jack lofts so much more... i mean im sure in a few years we will see a 35 degree pw ?

 

 

[phatchrisrules]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > BTW, fairway woods have "jacked lofts" too. A 18* 5-wood? Was 21* at some point. Why no complaints here?

> >

> > I think there is a misunderstanding. No one is complaining about the golfers who are using jacked lofts. We are just calling out the scam like marketing these companies and fitters are using.

> Maybe so. But many of the comments imply that the people using the jacked lofts are inferior. Either they need a less lofted club to hit a 7-iron X yards or they are too stupid to understand that they aren't hitting the ball farther.

>

> As for the Public Service Announcement and making sure golfers are not confused, I would love to know how many people here work for an NGO or volunteer their time (when not golfing) to make sure people are "informed" about all of the false truths being pushed around out there in the world today. For people that don't care, they seem to care a lot.

 

Totally, totally agree. As if posting on here is some sort of PSA to the world that will suddenly make the average player wake-up. They are no different than the people in major cities on street corners yelling about the second coming of Jesus, nobody cares and they go on with their lives.