New World Handicaps 2020

[North Butte]

> @Newby said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

>

> > OK then - it isn't ambiguous. And there is NO Player B in this scenario. This is ONLY about Player A's competition score and his posting score. NDB (the actual number) in the competition (handicapped) scoring is different than NDB (the actual number) for purposes of posting a handicap score on some holes. So I guess the definition of ambiguous seems to be ambiguous :-)

> >

> > dave

>

> A player has a Course Handicap of 8.

> He scores 7 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 3. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a net bogey (ie net 6)

> ..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting

> He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)

> ..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting

> He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

 

I believe friend Dave is talking about a scenario where the handicap system itself computes the golfers Course Handicap either with or without the "adjustment" of (Course Rating - Par) while a particular competition chooses the opposite option.

 

For instance, he is in a jurisdiction where the handicap system figures Course Handicap as strictly Handicap Index * (Slope Rating/113), the old fashioned way. For purposes of computing his handicap, his posted scores will be NDB-adjusted using "net double bogey" relative to that Course Handicap.

 

But now let's say he plays in a tournament where players from the Blue tees get three strokes more than the Yellows while players from the White tees get three stroke less than the Yellows. For purposes of his actual competition score, "net double bogey" is relative to that adjusted Course Handicap.

 

Those playing the middle set of tees (Yellow in my example) will have no difference in NDB-adjustment and the computation of their handicap from posted scores. But those playing from the Blue or White tees will have three holes where "net double bogey" (i.e. a "blob") on the hole does not correspond to the NDB-adjustment.

 

P.S. If I got the factor of "(Course Rating - Par)" backwards, please forgive me. I don't have the energy to go back upthread and check to see exactly how that is proposed to work.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > Where> @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is always a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I have a vague memory that some number crunching was done one the effect on Handicap Indices of the difference between using the CR-Par adjustment or not. Knowing my memory, I might have made that up and so will check on it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My concern is with the posting of the scores here in the USA. For Net Double Bogie max at my home course if I do not use the CourseRating-CoursePar adjustment there are 9 holes where I can post a max of Par+3. If I use the adjustment then there only 6 holes where I can post a max of par+3. The value of Net Double Bogey is changed for those 3 holes. If I play the next tees up the difference is 8 holes versus only 2. ie. Anyone using the CourseRating-CoursePar adjustment has an advantage over players that are not using the adjustment.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > There is a choice for Authorised Associations to calculate Course Handicaps by either including an adjustment for the difference between course rating and par or not including that adjustment. We, as players, will have our Course Handicaps calculated by whichever method has been chosen by the Authorised Association in whose jurisdiction we play. In the CONGU jurisdiction, I know my Course Handicap will not include the adjustment - in common with every other player in it. In the USA, yours will be calculated by whichever method the USGA adopts. Nowhere will players have an individual choice.

> > > > >

> > > > > There is one Definition of net double bogey. This is it, verbatim:

> > > > > _A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke(s) applied on that hole. It is the player’s maximum score for handicap purposes._

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > There may be only one definition, but it is ambiguous in some cases. Take a competition where the players have a choice of tees (with appropriate handicap adjustments - competition basis is the white tees) and Player A chooses to 'play back' to the Blue tees resulting in him getting 3 more strokes than he would normally get from those tees for a competition based on the Blue tees. So he now has 3 holes that are a "stroke hole" from the perspective of the handicapped competition that he competes in, but for purposes of posting a handicap score he does not get a stroke.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > From the previous post my takeaway is that the change will be at the USGA level. Either the USGA adopts CR-CoursePar or they do not for all players.

> >

> >.... If they do not adopt that adjustment (which I believe will be the case), then the problem as describes exists.

>

> From a USA only perspective I don't see it is an issue if they do not adopt it. For the purposes of Course Handicap and purposes of posting a handicap score the player would get the same amount of strokes for Course Handicap and posting. I don't see how there would be discrepency or am I missing something?

>

>

In the scenario being discussed, Player A gets (for example) 8 strokes from the Blue tees. But because the USGA has decided not to adopt the CR/Par adjustment and the field is playing the White Tees, A gets 11 strokes in the competition. So he has 3 'stroke holes' for purposes of calculating his tournament score, that are not stroke holes for purposes of posting a score.

 

This is hardly some new thing in the US world of golf. Lots of competitions are (for example) played at less than 100% handicaps, so everybody has to keep track of what is a stroke hole for posting and what is a stroke hole for scoring the competition. Nothing new here.

 

The discussion revolves around the definition of NDB which is

 

_A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke(s) applied on that hole. It is the player’s maximum score for handicap purposes._

 

To my USGA biased perspective. '..any handicap strokes(s) applied on that hole' does not tell ME which handicap strokes are being referenced WRT strokes applied on a hole. There are 3 holes in this case where A gets a stroke in one context, and does not in another context (same golfer, same score, same hole). I have been around the block enough times in this world that it does not lead me to an incorrect answer. But it is ambiguous as I read it, which was the point of the discussion. Maybe it is not ambiguous to other folks, but in my experience it is here in the US. If A were playing a Stableford competition, I doubt that many US golfers would look at a Stableford scoring table and see something like "NDB or worse - 0 points" and realize that this is probably not correct (at least on the 3 holes where A gets the extra stroke).

 

dave

 

ps. If I were rewording it the definition would say "... adjusted for any handicap stroke(s) ~~applied~~ calculated on that hole based on the golfer's CH". AFAIK, CH is not ambiguous within any given country, although it may differ between countries.

[davep043]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

 

> In the scenario being discussed, Player A gets (for example) 8 strokes from the Blue tees. But because the USGA has decided not to adopt the CR/Par adjustment and the field is playing the White Tees, A gets 11 strokes in the competition. So he has 3 'stroke holes' for purposes of calculating his tournament score, that are not stroke holes for purposes of posting a score.

>

I understand the issue. In my view, we have seen only the broad-brush outline of the WHS as it applies to our specific regional organization (the USGA). There will be many many details that must be defined prior to actually implementing the system, and this one of them. Much like the new RoG in early 2019, we are likely to see some adjustments and clarifications as unanticipated situations arise with the full implementation.

Handicaps for competitions do get adjusted for differing course ratings (which is the purpose behind the (CR-par) adjustment), and for different competition formats (i.e. 90% for men in fourball stroke play). To me, the most logical choice would be to use the course handicap (ignoring the to the (CR-par) adjustment, or any other modifications) to define handicap strokes to be used for the Net Double.

 

 

[James the Hogan Fan]

> @Halebopp said:

> One thing I've never seen explained is how the NDB score will actually be transformed into the score from which the WHS counts the average. A NDB 84 is very different for players with playing handicaps of 5 and 18.

 

Suppose a player with a handicap of 5.0 plays at Espoo Golf Seura off the Yellow 58's and shoots a 76. All pars, except unfortunately an 8 on 1, because of the range being ob... or the creek, or both (ask me how I know...)

 

Anyhow that 8 is a 7 as an NBD, so his total score is reduced from 76 to 75. (and 40 points in the current system, a pretty good day)

From EGS's scorecard, CR 72.4, Slope 141. The score is adjusted as (75-72.4)*113/141= 2.08 -> 2.1. The 2.1, and other score differentials determined in this way, are averaged. Is this your question?

[HatsForBats]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > Where> @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is always a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I have a vague memory that some number crunching was done one the effect on Handicap Indices of the difference between using the CR-Par adjustment or not. Knowing my memory, I might have made that up and so will check on it.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My concern is with the posting of the scores here in the USA. For Net Double Bogie max at my home course if I do not use the CourseRating-CoursePar adjustment there are 9 holes where I can post a max of Par+3. If I use the adjustment then there only 6 holes where I can post a max of par+3. The value of Net Double Bogey is changed for those 3 holes. If I play the next tees up the difference is 8 holes versus only 2. ie. Anyone using the CourseRating-CoursePar adjustment has an advantage over players that are not using the adjustment.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is a choice for Authorised Associations to calculate Course Handicaps by either including an adjustment for the difference between course rating and par or not including that adjustment. We, as players, will have our Course Handicaps calculated by whichever method has been chosen by the Authorised Association in whose jurisdiction we play. In the CONGU jurisdiction, I know my Course Handicap will not include the adjustment - in common with every other player in it. In the USA, yours will be calculated by whichever method the USGA adopts. Nowhere will players have an individual choice.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is one Definition of net double bogey. This is it, verbatim:

> > > > > > _A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke(s) applied on that hole. It is the player’s maximum score for handicap purposes._

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > There may be only one definition, but it is ambiguous in some cases. Take a competition where the players have a choice of tees (with appropriate handicap adjustments - competition basis is the white tees) and Player A chooses to 'play back' to the Blue tees resulting in him getting 3 more strokes than he would normally get from those tees for a competition based on the Blue tees. So he now has 3 holes that are a "stroke hole" from the perspective of the handicapped competition that he competes in, but for purposes of posting a handicap score he does not get a stroke.

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > >

> > > > From the previous post my takeaway is that the change will be at the USGA level. Either the USGA adopts CR-CoursePar or they do not for all players.

> > >

> > >.... If they do not adopt that adjustment (which I believe will be the case), then the problem as describes exists.

> >

> > From a USA only perspective I don't see it is an issue if they do not adopt it. For the purposes of Course Handicap and purposes of posting a handicap score the player would get the same amount of strokes for Course Handicap and posting. I don't see how there would be discrepency or am I missing something?

> >

> >

> Player A gets (for example) 8 strokes from the Blue tees. But because the USGA has decided not to adopt the CR/Par adjustment and the field is playing the White Tees, A gets 11 strokes in the competition. So he has 3 'stroke holes' for purposes of calculating his tournament score, that are not stroke holes for purposes of posting a score.

>

 

Now I understand your point. Thank you.

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Newby said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

>

> > OK then - it isn't ambiguous. And there is NO Player B in this scenario. This is ONLY about Player A's competition score and his posting score. NDB (the actual number) in the competition (handicapped) scoring is different than NDB (the actual number) for purposes of posting a handicap score on some holes. So I guess the definition of ambiguous seems to be ambiguous :-)

> >

> > dave

>

> A player has a Course Handicap of 8.

> He scores 7 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 3. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a net bogey (ie net 6)

> ..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting

> He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)

> ..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting

> He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

 

I > @davep043 said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

>

> > In the scenario being discussed, Player A gets (for example) 8 strokes from the Blue tees. But because the USGA has decided not to adopt the CR/Par adjustment and the field is playing the White Tees, A gets 11 strokes in the competition. So he has 3 'stroke holes' for purposes of calculating his tournament score, that are not stroke holes for purposes of posting a score.

> >

> I understand the issue. In my view, we have seen only the broad-brush outline of the WHS as it applies to our specific regional organization (the USGA). There will be many many details that must be defined prior to actually implementing the system, and this one of them. Much like the new RoG in early 2019, we are likely to see some adjustments and clarifications as unanticipated situations arise with the full implementation.

> Handicaps for competitions do get adjusted for differing course ratings (which is the purpose behind the (CR-par) adjustment), and for different competition formats (i.e. 90% for men in fourball stroke play). To me, the most logical choice would be to use the course handicap (ignoring the to the (CR-par) adjustment, or any other modifications) to define handicap strokes to be used for the Net Double.

>

>

 

FWIW, this scenario was never intended to be labeled (in and of itself) by me as a 'problem'. The discussion was whether the definition was ambiguous or not. It sounds like in some places the wording 'handicap strokes applied' has a more specific meaning than what I am accustomed to.

 

dave

 

ps. My personal bias is toward making the adjustment as that is the 'logical path' as I see it. But given where we (US golfers) are right now, it might not be the best path. I cannot imagine the outrage that would happen when all those golfers playing the senior tees, suddenly have to give up 4 or 5 strokes. I don't want to be the one dealing with that.

[davep043]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

>

> FWIW, this scenario was never intended to be labeled (in and of itself) by me as a 'problem'. The discussion was whether the definition was ambiguous or not. It sounds like in some places the wording 'handicap strokes applied' has a more specific meaning than what I am accustomed to.

>

In any event, I expect any ambiguity to be clarified when the final handicap rules are released by each of the regional authorities. It only seems ambiguous now because we haven't seen all of those details yet. And like some of the other details, it might vary regionally depending on other choices the local authorities make.

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Newby said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

>

> > OK then - it isn't ambiguous. And there is NO Player B in this scenario. This is ONLY about Player A's competition score and his posting score. NDB (the actual number) in the competition (handicapped) scoring is different than NDB (the actual number) for purposes of posting a handicap score on some holes. So I guess the definition of ambiguous seems to be ambiguous :-)

> >

> > dave

>

> A player has a Course Handicap of 8.

> He scores 7 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 3. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a net bogey (ie net 6)

> ..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting

> He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)

> ..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting

> He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

 

Shouldn't his posting score for the last par 5 where he made a 9 be capped at 8 which is NDB for that hole given that he gets a stroke?

[Colin L]

It is really quite straightforward. A net double bogey means the same whether it is the result of the player receiving a handicap stroke from his Course Handicap or receiving a stroke because of a mixed tee adjustment. The definition covers both. All that happens where a stroke comes from a mixed tee adjustment is that for handicapping purposes, your net double bogey maximum score at the hole where it was applied is a stroke less. You know at which hole this happens because the additional stroke was applied at the hole on the Stroke Index after those at which you got your normal strokes.

[Newby]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @Newby said:

> >

> > A player has a Course Handicap of 8.

> > He scores 7 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 3. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a net bogey (ie net 6)

> > ..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting

> > He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)

> > ..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting

> > He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> > ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

>

> Shouldn't his posting score for the last par 5 where he made a 9 be capped at 8 which is NDB for that hole given that he gets a stroke?

 

Nett Double Bogey is always 2 more than par after taking strokes received from the gross score.

So

for a par 5, NDB is 7,

for a par 4, NDB is 6,

for a par 3, NDB is 5.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > >

> > > A player has a Course Handicap of 8.

> > > He scores 7 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 3. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a net bogey (ie net 6)

> > > ..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting

> > > He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)

> > > ..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting

> > > He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> > > ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

> >

> > Shouldn't his posting score for the last par 5 where he made a 9 be capped at 8 which is NDB for that hole given that he gets a stroke?

>

> Nett Double Bogey is always 2 more than par after taking strokes received from the gross score.

> So

> for a par 5, NDB is 7,

> for a par 4, NDB is 6,

> for a par 3, NDB is 5.

 

Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

[Newby]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

 

> Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

Which one are you referring to?

 

_He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

_..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

_He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

_..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

>

> > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> Which one are you referring to?

>

> _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

>

 

The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

[Newby]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> >

> > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > Which one are you referring to?

> >

> > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> >

>

> The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

 

The WHS draft says

**Net Double Bogey**

A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

 

Par 5

plus two strokes + 2 = 7

handicap stroke + 1 = 8

 

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > >

> > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > Which one are you referring to?

> > >

> > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > >

> >

> > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

>

> The WHS draft says

> **Net Double Bogey**

> A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

 

Are you saying that a player with a CH of 36 can only post a 7 on a par 5?

 

dave

[North Butte]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > >

> > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > >

> > >

> > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> >

> > The WHS draft says

> > **Net Double Bogey**

> > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

>

> Are you saying that a player with a CH of 36 can only post a 7 on a par 5?

>

> dave

 

Under net double bogey the 36hcp has a maximum score of nine on a Par 5. Which I believe is the same as his maximum under ESC (as it turns out).

[denkea]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > >

> > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > >

> > >

> > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> >

> > The WHS draft says

> > **Net Double Bogey**

> > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

>

> Are you saying that a player with a CH of 36 can only post a 7 on a par 5?

>

> dave

 

A net 7 yes. That would be a 9 actual score.

 

[North Butte]

Whether ESC derived from a medal score or NDB derived from Stableford, the USGA is bound and determined that everyone always be keeping a score for *their* specified format alongside whatever actual game (medal, match play, 4BBB) they're playing. No surprise those rules are so frequently ignored and/or misunderstood.

[HatsForBats]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > >

> > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > Which one are you referring to?

> > >

> > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > >

> >

> > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

>

> The WHS draft says

> **Net Double Bogey**

> A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

>

> Par 5

> plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> handicap stroke + 1 = 8

>

 

What you are missing is your typo (??) that a player that was getting a stroke on a par 5 who scored a gross score of 9 would have their score **reduced by 2 strokes** for handicap purposes. It would be **reduced by 1** as the maximum is an 8. Rather than talking about the number of strokes deducted I think it easier to just reference the maximum allowed score.

[North Butte]

> @HatsForBats said:

Rather than talking about the number of strokes deducted I think it easier to just reference the maximum allowed score.

 

I agree sticking to max score makes discussing scenarios work better with fewer misunderstandings (and/or typos).

 

But in practical terms, how many strokes deducted is the way many of us keep track of ESC in our heads.

 

Or in my case, playing in a game where gross double bogey is the max score I think in terms of strokes added for ESC. On a Par 4 where I miss my putt for bogey, I will go ahead and try to make my double-bogey putt for handicap/ESC purposes. But the guy keeping my score will write down 6 because that's the format of the game. I just keep a mental note that on, let's say, three holes I had an extra stroke. And I'll add that on when posting. Or occasionally I will take a quad and mentally remember to add two strokes to the gross double on the card.

[Colin L]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > >

> > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > >

> > >

> > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> >

> > The WHS draft says

> > **Net Double Bogey**

> > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

>

> Are you saying that a player with a CH of 36 can only post a 7 on a par 5?

>

> dave

 

I'm sure he isn't. A player with a CH of 36 will be receiving 2 strokes a hole. Everyone's maximum score is a a net double bogey which, to repeat is calculated as follows:

Par + 2 Strokes + handicap stroke(s) for that hole

The 36 handicapper is receiving 2 strokes a hole. His maximum scores are

Par 3: 7 strokes

Par 4: 8 strokes

Par 5: 9 strokes

[Newby]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > >

> > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > >

> > >

> > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> >

> > The WHS draft says

> > **Net Double Bogey**

> > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> >

> > Par 5

> > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> >

>

> What you are missing is your typo (??) that a player that was getting a stroke on a par 5 who scored a gross score of 9 would have their score **reduced by 2 strokes** for handicap purposes. It would be **reduced by 1** as the maximum is an 8. Rather than talking about the number of strokes deducted I think it easier to just reference the maximum allowed score.

**If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

Take a player off 54 (max under WHS) getting 3 strokes on all holes.

If the player scores 10 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 7 (ie = NDB). So his handicap score is **7**

If the player scores 11 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 8 (ie = 1 above NDB). But his handicap score is **7**

**If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

 

.

Are you confusing NDB with Maximum Score format?

_A form of stroke play where a player’s or side’s score for a hole is capped at_

_a maximum number of strokes (including strokes made and_

_any penalty strokes) set by the Committee, such as two times par, a fixed_

_number or net double bogey._

[North Butte]

> @Newby said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > >

> > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > >

> > > The WHS draft says

> > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > >

> > > Par 5

> > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > >

> >

> > What you are missing is your typo (??) that a player that was getting a stroke on a par 5 who scored a gross score of 9 would have their score **reduced by 2 strokes** for handicap purposes. It would be **reduced by 1** as the maximum is an 8. Rather than talking about the number of strokes deducted I think it easier to just reference the maximum allowed score.

> **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

> Take a player off 54 (max under WHS) getting 3 strokes on all holes.

> If the player scores 10 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 7 (ie = NDB). So his handicap score is **7**

> If the player scores 11 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 8 (ie = 1 above NDB). But his handicap score is **7**

> **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

 

Here's another of those cultural things. You are stating your net score with no reference at all to your gross score on the hole. That must be a UK thing.

 

USA golfers, in my experience, almost always talk about their gross score on a hole. If myself or the guys I play with take 8 strokes on a Par 5 where we're getting 1 handicap stroke we'd say one of the two following things:

 

"I made 8 on that hole"

or

"I made 8 on that hole for a net 7"

 

Nobody I know would say, "I made 7 on that hole". We just don't talk in terms of net scores unless it's an afterthought to the gross score. Part of that is we're never, ever playing real (net) Stableford and we're almost never playing any sort of net stroke play format. But it's also because we tend to handicap off the low marker in the group so we're not getting all our strokes, just what we get relative to the best player.

 

It sounds like in UK it is common to simply state ones net score after applying the full handicap. Hence another misunderstanding when we try to discuss even fairly simple "NDB" scenarios. And another example of why talk of a uniform handicapping system world-wide is just wishful or even Utopian thinking.

[davep043]

> @Newby said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> >

> > What you are missing is your typo (??) that a player that was getting a stroke on a par 5 who scored a gross score of 9 would have their score **reduced by 2 strokes** for handicap purposes. It would be **reduced by 1** as the maximum is an 8. Rather than talking about the number of strokes deducted I think it easier to just reference the maximum allowed score.

> **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

> Take a player off 54 (max under WHS) getting 3 strokes on all holes.

> If the player scores 10 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 7 (ie = NDB). So his handicap score is **7**

> If the player scores 11 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 8 (ie = 1 above NDB). But his handicap score is **7**

> **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

You two seem to be saying the same thing. Yes, on a par 5, a Net Double Bogey is always a NET score of 7. The GROSS score, the **maximum** score that gets reported for handicap calculation, is 7 plus handicap strokes. That means our 54 handicapper will report 10 for handicap purposes whenever he be scores 10 or more on that par-5 hole.

edit - corrected boneheaded mistake exposed by @ThinkingPlus

[ThinkingPlus]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > >

> > > What you are missing is your typo (??) that a player that was getting a stroke on a par 5 who scored a gross score of 9 would have their score **reduced by 2 strokes** for handicap purposes. It would be **reduced by 1** as the maximum is an 8. Rather than talking about the number of strokes deducted I think it easier to just reference the maximum allowed score.

> > **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

> > Take a player off 54 (max under WHS) getting 3 strokes on all holes.

> > If the player scores 10 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 7 (ie = NDB). So his handicap score is **7**

> > If the player scores 11 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 8 (ie = 1 above NDB). But his handicap score is **7**

> > **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

> You two seem to be saying the same thing. Yes, on a par 5, a Net Double Bogey is always a NET score of 7. The GROSS score, the **maximum** score that gets reported for handicap calculation, is 7 plus handicap strokes. That means our 54 handicapper will report 8 for handicap purposes whenever he be scores 8 or more on that par-5 hole.

>

 

Wouldn't his max postable score on a par 5 be a 10? His 10 - 3 = 7 is his net score. This would be a net double (+2) on a par 5.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Newby said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > >

> > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > >

> > > The WHS draft says

> > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > >

> > > Par 5

> > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > >

> >

> > What you are missing is your typo (??) that a player that was getting a stroke on a par 5 who scored a gross score of 9 would have their score **reduced by 2 strokes** for handicap purposes. It would be **reduced by 1** as the maximum is an 8. Rather than talking about the number of strokes deducted I think it easier to just reference the maximum allowed score.

> **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

> Take a player off 54 (max under WHS) getting 3 strokes on all holes.

> If the player scores 10 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 7 (ie = NDB). So his handicap score is **7**

> If the player scores 11 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 8 (ie = 1 above NDB). But his handicap score is **7**

> **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

>

> .

> Are you confusing NDB with Maximum Score format?

> _A form of stroke play where a player’s or side’s score for a hole is capped at_

> _a maximum number of strokes (including strokes made and_

> _any penalty strokes) set by the Committee, such as two times par, a fixed_

> _number or net double bogey._

 

I assume what you are saying is that NDB is the max postable score on a hole. And you are saying that NDB on a par 3 is 5, a par 4 is 6, and a par 5 is 7. So on a course with par = CR, the max postable score is Par +36. So even if the SLOPE is 155, the maximum differential possible is 49.3, making a HI of 54 impossible (at least on that course).

 

My interpretation is that the maximum postable score under NDB rules is 'the gross score that generates a NDB'.

 

dave

[davep043]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > >

> > > > What you are missing is your typo (??) that a player that was getting a stroke on a par 5 who scored a gross score of 9 would have their score **reduced by 2 strokes** for handicap purposes. It would be **reduced by 1** as the maximum is an 8. Rather than talking about the number of strokes deducted I think it easier to just reference the maximum allowed score.

> > > **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

> > > Take a player off 54 (max under WHS) getting 3 strokes on all holes.

> > > If the player scores 10 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 7 (ie = NDB). So his handicap score is **7**

> > > If the player scores 11 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 8 (ie = 1 above NDB). But his handicap score is **7**

> > > **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

> > You two seem to be saying the same thing. Yes, on a par 5, a Net Double Bogey is always a NET score of 7. The GROSS score, the **maximum** score that gets reported for handicap calculation, is 7 plus handicap strokes. That means our 54 handicapper will report 8 for handicap purposes whenever he be scores 8 or more on that par-5 hole.

> >

>

> Wouldn't his max postable score on a par 5 be a 10? His 10 - 3 = 7 is his net score. This would be a net double (+2) on a par 5.

 

My bad, I'm a moron, you're right, he posts 10 whenever he scores 10 or more on that par-5.

[Newby]

Outside North America stableford (in singles or 4s) is probably the most common format of club social play. Players know exactly where they get their shots and it is so ingrained it is second nature to pay attention to the card if on a new/strange course.

When a player holes out they will say things like '4 for 2', '6 for 1', '6 for a blob' or simply pick up if they can't get a point and record a blob.

The fall back of course is that both gross (often net) and points are always recorded on the card and because the NDB calculation is done by the software (I think I read about that somewhere ;-) ), gross only is posted in the system

[North Butte]

> @Newby said:

> Outside North America stableford (in singles or 4s) is probably the most common format of club social play. Players know exactly where they get their shots and it is so ingrained it is second nature to pay attention to the card if on a new/strange course.

> When a player holes out they will say things like '4 for 2', '6 for 1', '6 for a blob' or simply pick up if they can't get a point and record a blob.

> The fall back of course is that both gross (often net) and points are always recorded on the card and because the NDB calculation is done by the software (I think I read about that somewhere ;-) ), gross only is posted in the system

 

Yep, that's the usual manner of casual play at the UK clubs I've visited (and the one I briefly belonged to as an overseas member). Very different and I must say enjoyably so compared to the culture I'm accustomed to at home.

 

The old saw about England and America being two countries separated by a common language could be rephrased one day. Two countries separated by a common handicap system ;-)

[HatsForBats]

> @Newby said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > >

> > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > >

> > > The WHS draft says

> > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > >

> > > Par 5

> > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > >

> >

> > What you are missing is your typo (??) that a player that was getting a stroke on a par 5 who scored a gross score of 9 would have their score **reduced by 2 strokes** for handicap purposes. It would be **reduced by 1** as the maximum is an 8. Rather than talking about the number of strokes deducted I think it easier to just reference the maximum allowed score.

> **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

> Take a player off 54 (max under WHS) getting 3 strokes on all holes.

> If the player scores 10 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 7 (ie = NDB). So his handicap score is **7**

> If the player scores 11 gross and takes off his 3 strokes his net score is 8 (ie = 1 above NDB). But his handicap score is **7**

> **If par is 5, NDB is always 7**

>

> .

> Are you confusing NDB with Maximum Score format?

> _A form of stroke play where a player’s or side’s score for a hole is capped at_

> _a maximum number of strokes (including strokes made and_

> _any penalty strokes) set by the Committee, such as two times par, a fixed_

> _number or net double bogey._

 

You lost me. How is NDB **always** 7 on a par 5? **Gross** Double Bogey is always 7 on a par 5 but Net Double Bogie is variable depending on how many strokes the player gets. Is the NDB you are refering to not Net Double Bogey? Further will your area be posting net scores for handicap purposes rather than gross scores?