New World Handicaps 2020

[Newby]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > Just for completeness (and to add confusion where confusion already abounds :) )...

> >

> > As I understand it the WHS will allow two different calculations for Course Handicap. One is the HI x Slope/113 calculation referenced frequently here. The other is to add an additional parameter such that CH = HI x Slope/113 + (CR -CoursePar) . Each implementing organization has a choice (as I understand things). That latter calculation is used in some places and makes a lot more sense, particularly now that NDB is part of the handicap process. And it is interesting that two courses in two different countries with identical Slope/CR #'s being played by two different golfers with identical HI #'s, and shooting identical gross scores, could end up posting scores that are several strokes different.

> >

> > It is not the end of the handicapping world, but it is not what you would expect.

> >

> > dave

>

> Have a source/link on that?

 

**CH = HI x Slope/113 + (CR -CoursePar)** is currently used by the EGA (Continental Europe) and I also understand it will an option but can't find the reference at the moment.

I don't understand why.

[Halebopp]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > Just for completeness (and to add confusion where confusion already abounds :) )...

> >

> > As I understand it the WHS will allow two different calculations for Course Handicap. One is the HI x Slope/113 calculation referenced frequently here. The other is to add an additional parameter such that CH = HI x Slope/113 + (CR -CoursePar) . Each implementing organization has a choice (as I understand things). That latter calculation is used in some places and makes a lot more sense, particularly now that NDB is part of the handicap process. And it is interesting that two courses in two different countries with identical Slope/CR #'s being played by two different golfers with identical HI #'s, and shooting identical gross scores, could end up posting scores that are several strokes different.

> >

> > It is not the end of the handicapping world, but it is not what you would expect.

> >

> > dave

>

> Have a source/link on that?

 

Here's [Golf Australia's take](https://www.golf.org.au/ckfinder/userfiles/files/WHS_%20Full%20set%20of%20regulations%20for%20Australia%20(updated%2023-4-2019).pdf "Golf Australia's take") on it, pretty much summarizing points brought up here before:

 

> The Daily Handicap calculation will be changed to incorporate the difference between the

> Scratch Rating and the Par.

> o To determine a WHS Daily Handicap, GOLF Link will start by performing the exact same calculation

> as currently occurs under the existing GA Handicap System. And then it will simply adjust this

> amount by the difference between the Scratch Rating and the Par.

> o EXAMPLE OF THE NEW DAILY HANDICAP CALCULATION. A player’s Daily Handicap under the

> existing GA Handicap System is 15 for a set of tees; the Scratch Rating is 72, and the par is 70 (ie

> the course is rated to be 2 shots harder than its par). Because the course is rated to be 2 shots

> harder than its par, the player gets an extra 2 shots added to their Daily Handicap, so their WHS

> Daily Handicap becomes: 15 + 2 = 17.

> o First key benefit. This change will eliminate the significant complexity involved with scoring for

> multi-tee and mixed-gender competitions, and as a result will be beneficial from a game

> participation and engagement perspective. This will also make it easier for clubs to manage their

> legal risk around compliance with the 1984 Federal equal opportunity law (for more information

> see the Australian Human Rights Commission publication titled ‘Guidelines for the promotion of

> equal opportunity for women and girls in golf’ which is available from the following webpage –

> www.golf.org.au/equality-guidelines

> o Second key benefit. This is all that needs to happen to enable 36 Stableford points (or net par) to

> become the equitable measure of whether a player has played to their handicap, irrespective of

> the course or set of tees.

> o Third key benefit. It will make Daily Handicaps and handicap scores more intuitive – thus

> eliminating a theme of negative feedback we continually receive on our existing system.

 

Edit: This software company has more information on the subject than most associations have bothered to publish: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C2K4iVa4q-uXwLl7hz8FBmi9AUJuSHkp/view

[DaveLeeNC]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > Just for completeness (and to add confusion where confusion already abounds :) )...

> >

> > As I understand it the WHS will allow two different calculations for Course Handicap. One is the HI x Slope/113 calculation referenced frequently here. The other is to add an additional parameter such that CH = HI x Slope/113 + (CR -CoursePar) . Each implementing organization has a choice (as I understand things). That latter calculation is used in some places and makes a lot more sense, particularly now that NDB is part of the handicap process. And it is interesting that two courses in two different countries with identical Slope/CR #'s being played by two different golfers with identical HI #'s, and shooting identical gross scores, could end up posting scores that are several strokes different.

> >

> > It is not the end of the handicapping world, but it is not what you would expect.

> >

> > dave

>

> Have a source/link on that?

 

It comes from post # 1084 here https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1597906/world-handicap-system-2020/p37

 

It came from Colin so it is better than 99% of the internet stuff out there.

 

dave

[davep043]

> @scott_Donald said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > Are you a member of a club in Texas? If so, you're probably registered for a USGA handicap already, check with the pro.

>

> no, I just pay to play a couple times a week.

>

> Not worth being a member when I pay my membership in Scotland.

In that case, I suggest that you check with the pro at a public course that you play regularly. Generally speaking, you have to be a member of a "club" to have a handicap in the US, but clubs can be private, public, or even internet-based. You can find clubs near your Texas home here:

https://www.txga.org/txga_clubs.cml.html

At least a few of them allow you to sign up online.

 

[HatsForBats]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > Just for completeness (and to add confusion where confusion already abounds :) )...

> > >

> > > As I understand it the WHS will allow two different calculations for Course Handicap. One is the HI x Slope/113 calculation referenced frequently here. The other is to add an additional parameter such that CH = HI x Slope/113 + (CR -CoursePar) . Each implementing organization has a choice (as I understand things). That latter calculation is used in some places and makes a lot more sense, particularly now that NDB is part of the handicap process. And it is interesting that two courses in two different countries with identical Slope/CR #'s being played by two different golfers with identical HI #'s, and shooting identical gross scores, could end up posting scores that are several strokes different.

> > >

> > > It is not the end of the handicapping world, but it is not what you would expect.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > Have a source/link on that?

>

> It comes from post # 1084 here https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1597906/world-handicap-system-2020/p37

>

> It came from Colin so it is better than 99% of the internet stuff out there.

>

> dave

 

I must be missing something. Colin wrote in there that 'A net double bogey is the same thing whether the CR-Par adjustment is used or not' but I don't see how that would be true since it would potentially produce two very different Course Handicap numbers.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > Just for completeness (and to add confusion where confusion already abounds :) )...

> > > >

> > > > As I understand it the WHS will allow two different calculations for Course Handicap. One is the HI x Slope/113 calculation referenced frequently here. The other is to add an additional parameter such that CH = HI x Slope/113 + (CR -CoursePar) . Each implementing organization has a choice (as I understand things). That latter calculation is used in some places and makes a lot more sense, particularly now that NDB is part of the handicap process. And it is interesting that two courses in two different countries with identical Slope/CR #'s being played by two different golfers with identical HI #'s, and shooting identical gross scores, could end up posting scores that are several strokes different.

> > > >

> > > > It is not the end of the handicapping world, but it is not what you would expect.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > Have a source/link on that?

> >

> > It comes from post # 1084 here https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1597906/world-handicap-system-2020/p37

> >

> > It came from Colin so it is better than 99% of the internet stuff out there.

> >

> > dave

>

> I must be missing something. Colin wrote in there that 'A net double bogey is the same thing whether the CR-Par adjustment is used or not' but I don't see how that would be true since it would potentially produce two very different Course Handicap numbers.

 

It is a matter of terminology. NDB is always 'par + CH'. The change is the CH calculation. dave

[Colin L]

I wrote that because a net double bogey is always a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

 

I have a vague memory that some number crunching was done one the effect on Handicap Indices of the difference between using the CR-Par adjustment or not. Knowing my memory, I might have made that up and so will check on it.

 

 

[scott_Donald]

> @davep043 said:

> In that case, I suggest that you check with the pro at a public course that you play regularly. Generally speaking, you have to be a member of a "club" to have a handicap in the US, but clubs can be private, public, or even internet-based. You can find clubs near your Texas home here:

> https://www.txga.org/txga_clubs.cml.html

> At least a few of them allow you to sign up online.

>

 

awesome thanks.

 

[DaveLeeNC]

> @"Colin L" said:

> I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

 

Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

 

dave

[rogolf]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

>

> Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

>

> dave

 

Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

[North Butte]

The whole ESC/NDB thing is a case of debating angels dancing on the head of a pin. The theoretical maximum difference that either ESC or NDB would have over a simple "double, triple, quad" depending on handicap index range is one stroke on one or two holes in some rounds. Fraction of a stroke effect on the resulting handicap.

 

Why on earth USGA needs to over-complicate it to start with (ESC) and then switch to a very slightly different but equally complicated version (NDB) is beyond mortal comprehension. We're talking about a pretend score you MAKE UP when you pick up on a hole, for goodness sake.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @rogolf said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> >

> > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> >

> > dave

>

> Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

 

In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case.

 

I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

 

dave

[rogolf]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > >

> > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

>

> **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

>

> I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

>

> dave

I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @rogolf said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > >

> > > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

> >

> > **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

> >

> > I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

> >

> > dave

> I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

>

 

I believe he means that one tee up or down is 2 strokes in slope index. Thus 5 tees equals 10 strokes.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > >

> > > > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > >

> > > > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

> > >

> > > **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

> > >

> > > I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

> > >

> > > dave

> > I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

> >

>

> I believe he means that one tee up or down is 2 strokes in slope index. Thus 5 tees equals 10 strokes.

 

That is not what I mean. Using the CR/Par adjustment on (just to pick a course) Pinehurst No. 6, a scratch golfer from the TIPS (CR = 74.9) has a CH of 3 (74.9 - 72 rounded). Playing the most forward tees (CR = 64.3) he has a CH of - 8. In this case the difference is 11 strokes.

 

As is currently done, CH = 0 in both cases.

 

dave

[rogolf]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dave

> > > > >

> > > > > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

> > > >

> > > > **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

> > > >

> > > > I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > > I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

> > >

> >

> > I believe he means that one tee up or down is 2 strokes in slope index. Thus 5 tees equals 10 strokes.

>

> That is not what I mean. Using the CR/Par adjustment on (just to pick a course) Pinehurst No. 6, a scratch golfer from the TIPS (CR = 74.9) has a CH of 3 (74.9 - 72 rounded). Playing the most forward tees (CR = 64.3) he has a CH of - 8. In this case the difference is 11 strokes.

>

> As is currently done, CH = 0 in both cases.

>

> dave

 

I thought my original question was about using existing ESC or NDB and a scratch player having a double bogey or a triple bogey on one hole in a round and its effect on his/her handicap index?

[Colin L]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

>

> Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

>

> dave

 

Indeed..

 

@ HatsForBats

If your Course Handicap using the CR-Par adjustment is a stroke more than it would be if not using that adjustment, you will get an extra stroke at a hole according to the stroke index and consequently the numerical value of a net double bogey at that hole is one stroke higher. The net double bogey is still par+2+any handicap strokes for that hole. This higher value of NDB at that hole is the _consequence_ of calculating your Course Handicap using the CR-Par adjustment, nothing to do with the original calculation of the Course Handicap.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @rogolf said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

> > > > >

> > > > > **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

> > > > >

> > > > > I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > > I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

> > > >

> > >

> > > I believe he means that one tee up or down is 2 strokes in slope index. Thus 5 tees equals 10 strokes.

> >

> > That is not what I mean. Using the CR/Par adjustment on (just to pick a course) Pinehurst No. 6, a scratch golfer from the TIPS (CR = 74.9) has a CH of 3 (74.9 - 72 rounded). Playing the most forward tees (CR = 64.3) he has a CH of - 8. In this case the difference is 11 strokes.

> >

> > As is currently done, CH = 0 in both cases.

> >

> > dave

>

> I thought my original question was about using existing ESC or NDB and a scratch player having a double bogey or a triple bogey on one hole in a round and its effect on his/her handicap index?

 

If it is one hole only, then the max effect is (obviously) one stroke or less. But when you referred to "the outcome", I didn't make any particular assumptions and just looked across the board at the extremes (which are extreme).

 

dave

[Mr. Bean]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dave

> > > > >

> > > > > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

> > > >

> > > > **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

> > > >

> > > > I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > > I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

> > >

> >

> > I believe he means that one tee up or down is 2 strokes in slope index. Thus 5 tees equals 10 strokes.

>

> That is not what I mean. Using the CR/Par adjustment on (just to pick a course) Pinehurst No. 6, a scratch golfer from the TIPS (CR = 74.9) has a CH of 3 (74.9 - 72 rounded). Playing the most forward tees (CR = 64.3) he has a CH of - 8. In this case the difference is 11 strokes.

>

> As is currently done, CH = 0 in both cases.

>

> dave

 

We mean the same thing, just using different terms. I used slope index and you use Course Handicap.

[rogolf]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

> > > > >

> > > > > **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

> > > > >

> > > > > I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > > I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

> > > >

> > >

> > > I believe he means that one tee up or down is 2 strokes in slope index. Thus 5 tees equals 10 strokes.

> >

> > That is not what I mean. Using the CR/Par adjustment on (just to pick a course) Pinehurst No. 6, a scratch golfer from the TIPS (CR = 74.9) has a CH of 3 (74.9 - 72 rounded). Playing the most forward tees (CR = 64.3) he has a CH of - 8. In this case the difference is 11 strokes.

> >

> > As is currently done, CH = 0 in both cases.

> >

> > dave

>

> We mean the same thing, just using different terms. I used slope index and you use Course Handicap.

 

What is a "slope index"? I understand course rating, slope rating, handicap index and course handicap.

[Mr. Bean]

> @rogolf said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dave

> > > > > I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I believe he means that one tee up or down is 2 strokes in slope index. Thus 5 tees equals 10 strokes.

> > >

> > > That is not what I mean. Using the CR/Par adjustment on (just to pick a course) Pinehurst No. 6, a scratch golfer from the TIPS (CR = 74.9) has a CH of 3 (74.9 - 72 rounded). Playing the most forward tees (CR = 64.3) he has a CH of - 8. In this case the difference is 11 strokes.

> > >

> > > As is currently done, CH = 0 in both cases.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > We mean the same thing, just using different terms. I used slope index and you use Course Handicap.

>

> What is a "slope index"?

 

I could not find the appropriate term so I used slope index to describe the amount of strokes one gets with a certain handicap. I believe the correct term is Course Handicap.

[North Butte]

Ain't this terminology hard to keep straight? It keeps tripping me up, glad I'm not the only one.

[rogolf]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dave

> > > > > I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I believe he means that one tee up or down is 2 strokes in slope index. Thus 5 tees equals 10 strokes.

> > >

> > > That is not what I mean. Using the CR/Par adjustment on (just to pick a course) Pinehurst No. 6, a scratch golfer from the TIPS (CR = 74.9) has a CH of 3 (74.9 - 72 rounded). Playing the most forward tees (CR = 64.3) he has a CH of - 8. In this case the difference is 11 strokes.

> > >

> > > As is currently done, CH = 0 in both cases.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > I thought my original question was about using existing ESC or NDB and a scratch player having a double bogey or a triple bogey on one hole in a round and its effect on his/her handicap index?

>

> If it is one hole only, then the max effect is (obviously) one stroke or less. But when you referred to "the outcome", I didn't make any particular assumptions and just looked across the board at the extremes (which are extreme).

>

> dave

 

With "outcome", I was referring to a single stroke on a single hole in a single round (of the eight counting rounds) having an insignificant impact (outcome) on the handicap index.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @"North Butte" said:

> Ain't this terminology hard to keep straight? It keeps tripping me up, glad I'm not the only one.

 

Apparently in the WHS terminology has regional variations as well. ;-)

[rogolf]

> @"North Butte" said:

> Ain't this terminology hard to keep straight? It keeps tripping me up, glad I'm not the only one.

 

Actually, in North America, I think it's quite clear. When the non-North Americans (no insult intended) try understanding/discussing it, there can be confusion in the terminology and definitions.

[Mr. Bean]

> @rogolf said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > Ain't this terminology hard to keep straight? It keeps tripping me up, glad I'm not the only one.

>

> Actually, in North America, I think it's quite clear. When the non-North Americans (no insult intended) try understanding/discussing it, there can be confusion in the terminology and definitions.

 

Ditto.

 

Around here we only say 'slope' when we mean Course Handicap.

'What is your slope on this course (from this tee)?'

'It is 18, what's yours?'

[Colin L]

A universal system has to mean a universal language and we will have new terms to learn and old ones to unlearn. Never mind, we got some practice in with the 2019 Rules.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @rogolf said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I believe he means that one tee up or down is 2 strokes in slope index. Thus 5 tees equals 10 strokes.

> > > >

> > > > That is not what I mean. Using the CR/Par adjustment on (just to pick a course) Pinehurst No. 6, a scratch golfer from the TIPS (CR = 74.9) has a CH of 3 (74.9 - 72 rounded). Playing the most forward tees (CR = 64.3) he has a CH of - 8. In this case the difference is 11 strokes.

> > > >

> > > > As is currently done, CH = 0 in both cases.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > I thought my original question was about using existing ESC or NDB and a scratch player having a double bogey or a triple bogey on one hole in a round and its effect on his/her handicap index?

> >

> > If it is one hole only, then the max effect is (obviously) one stroke or less. But when you referred to "the outcome", I didn't make any particular assumptions and just looked across the board at the extremes (which are extreme).

> >

> > dave

>

> With "outcome", I was referring to a single stroke on a single hole in a single round (of the eight counting rounds) having an insignificant impact (outcome) on the handicap index.

 

In thinking about it, this is where I believe it matters. For low handicappers who tend to play tees where Par and CR are within a couple strokes, it doesn't matter much. But for the high handicappers (over 20) who are playing the tees where they (in most cases) "belong" (in quotes because if you can keep up you can play from anywhere IMHO), par and the CR are probably more like 5 strokes apart. And this is the 'missing' adjustment in their CH.

 

In my experience playing with these guys in a typical round they will be picking up for NDB maybe 3 or 4 holes a round. So call it an average of 3.5 times per round. And on 5 of the 18 holes they get 'an extra stroke' because there is no CR/Par adjustment. On average that comes out to roughly 1 stroke per round difference between no CR/Par adjustment and having that adjustment.

 

It is not nothing but also not a big deal on a high handicap basis (and it is based on no data at all - just my impression of things).

 

dave

[rogolf]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > Ain't this terminology hard to keep straight? It keeps tripping me up, glad I'm not the only one.

> >

> > Actually, in North America, I think it's quite clear. When the non-North Americans (no insult intended) try understanding/discussing it, there can be confusion in the terminology and definitions.

>

> Ditto.

>

> Around here we only say 'slope' when we mean Course Handicap.

> 'What is your slope on this course (from this tee)?'

> 'It is 18, what's yours?'

 

And here, we never refer to "slope" at all, just the course handicap that results from our handicap factor (sorry, but a Canadian copyright differentiation from USGA) and the slope rating, which is read from a chart or shows up on our computer/phone as a course handicap from the tees most regularly played (course handicap available from other tees at the push of button).

[rogolf]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I wrote that because a net double bogey is a score for a particular hole ( par +2 + any handicap strokes allocated for that hole).

> > > > > > > > > > > What part does that play in the calculation of a Course Handicap which is a function of Handicap Index and Slope Rating? Am I the one missing something?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Assume that par = 72 and CR = 74. On the number 1 handicap hole a scratch golfer (HI =0) posts no worse than 6 on the #1 handicap hole (par 4 in this example) using the current USGA CH calculation (HI x Slope/113). If the CR adjustment is used this golfer could post as high as a 7 on that same hole.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Understand all of that, but in the whole scheme of things, is the difference in the outcome going to be significant? It's potentially one stroke out of eight scores, ie, likely 1 in 570 or so.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > **In moving from the championship tees up to the most forward tees, a 10 stroke difference would be common. That is, admittedly, the most extreme case. **

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I have no idea how big an impact this will have across the board. But you would just think that given the identical input in a **WORLD** Handicap System, you would get identical output. But this is probably not the last step. While making the CR/Par adjustment is the most sensible alternative and would simplify some things like mixed tees, making sense of Stableford scores, 'net score against par' actually means something, etc given where we are that may not be practical - or even worthwhile.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > > I don't follow what you're trying to say about 10 strokes difference?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I believe he means that one tee up or down is 2 strokes in slope index. Thus 5 tees equals 10 strokes.

> > > > >

> > > > > That is not what I mean. Using the CR/Par adjustment on (just to pick a course) Pinehurst No. 6, a scratch golfer from the TIPS (CR = 74.9) has a CH of 3 (74.9 - 72 rounded). Playing the most forward tees (CR = 64.3) he has a CH of - 8. In this case the difference is 11 strokes.

> > > > >

> > > > > As is currently done, CH = 0 in both cases.

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > >

> > > > I thought my original question was about using existing ESC or NDB and a scratch player having a double bogey or a triple bogey on one hole in a round and its effect on his/her handicap index?

> > >

> > > If it is one hole only, then the max effect is (obviously) one stroke or less. But when you referred to "the outcome", I didn't make any particular assumptions and just looked across the board at the extremes (which are extreme).

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > With "outcome", I was referring to a single stroke on a single hole in a single round (of the eight counting rounds) having an insignificant impact (outcome) on the handicap index.

>

> In thinking about it, this is where I believe it matters. For low handicappers who tend to play tees where Par and CR are within a couple strokes, it doesn't matter much. But for the high handicappers (over 20) who are playing the tees where they (in most cases) "belong" (in quotes because if you can keep up you can play from anywhere IMHO), par and the CR are probably more like 5 strokes apart. And this is the 'missing' adjustment in their CH.

>

> In my experience playing with these guys in a typical round they will be picking up for NDB maybe 3 or 4 holes a round. So call it an average of 3.5 times per round. And on 5 of the 18 holes they get 'an extra stroke' because there is no CR/Par adjustment. On average that comes out to roughly 1 stroke per round difference between no CR/Par adjustment and having that adjustment.

>

> It is not nothing but also not a big deal on a high handicap basis (and it is based on no data at all - just my impression of things).

>

> dave

 

I'll have to wait and see where it all ends up in the WHS. If it's a true WHS, then ultimately (maybe not 2020 or 2021) there will only be one method of determining the player's course handicap, regardless of where he or she resides and plays.