New World Handicaps 2020

[dlygrisse]

In the end, at least in the USA, I think this will have very little impact. The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings. US handicaps will probably drop a bit since it is the last 8 out of 20, instead of 10 out of 20.

[North Butte]

> @dlygrisse said:

> In the end, at least in the USA, I think this will have very little impact. The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings. US handicaps will probably drop a bit since it is the last 8 out of 20, instead of 10 out of 20.

 

People who've gone back and re-figured their recent rounds both ways seem to find the 8-of-20 and removing the 0.96 multiplier seem to just about cancel out on average.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @dlygrisse said:

> > In the end, at least in the USA, I think this will have very little impact. The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings. US handicaps will probably drop a bit since it is the last 8 out of 20, instead of 10 out of 20.

>

> People who've gone back and re-figured their recent rounds both ways seem to find the 8-of-20 and removing the 0.96 multiplier seem to just about cancel out on average.

 

It probably depends on how you slice it. Across all US handicaps (in aggregate) there may be little change. OTOH, for golfers around scratch, dropping 0.96 changes almost nothing but surely dropping from 10/20 to 8/20 will be a meaningful change.

 

dave

[North Butte]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > In the end, at least in the USA, I think this will have very little impact. The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings. US handicaps will probably drop a bit since it is the last 8 out of 20, instead of 10 out of 20.

> >

> > People who've gone back and re-figured their recent rounds both ways seem to find the 8-of-20 and removing the 0.96 multiplier seem to just about cancel out on average.

>

> It probably depends on how you slice it. Across all US handicaps (in aggregate) there may be little change. OTOH, for golfers around scratch, dropping 0.96 changes almost nothing but surely dropping from 10/20 to 8/20 will be a meaningful change.

>

> dave

 

You think it would ever be more than a stroke for even a +1 or +2 player? I figure even if it's a full stroke for a lot of players, that's still a one-off thing. It has been 10-of-20 for several decades and presumably won't be changing again from 8-of-20 any time soon.

[rogolf]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @dlygrisse said:

> > In the end, at least in the USA, I think this will have very little impact. The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings. US handicaps will probably drop a bit since it is the last 8 out of 20, instead of 10 out of 20.

>

> People who've gone back and re-figured their recent rounds both ways seem to find the 8-of-20 and removing the 0.96 multiplier seem to just about cancel out on average.

 

My index dropped from 5.3 to 3.9 when I did the math, that's significant.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @dlygrisse said:

> > In the end, at least in the USA, I think this will have very little impact. The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings. US handicaps will probably drop a bit since it is the last 8 out of 20, instead of 10 out of 20.

>

> People who've gone back and re-figured their recent rounds both ways seem to find the 8-of-20 and removing the 0.96 multiplier seem to just about cancel out on average.

 

Mine drops half a stroke currently. Not huge, but not insignificant.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > In the end, at least in the USA, I think this will have very little impact. The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings. US handicaps will probably drop a bit since it is the last 8 out of 20, instead of 10 out of 20.

> > >

> > > People who've gone back and re-figured their recent rounds both ways seem to find the 8-of-20 and removing the 0.96 multiplier seem to just about cancel out on average.

> >

> > It probably depends on how you slice it. Across all US handicaps (in aggregate) there may be little change. OTOH, for golfers around scratch, dropping 0.96 changes almost nothing but surely dropping from 10/20 to 8/20 will be a meaningful change.

> >

> > dave

>

> You think it would ever be more than a stroke for even a +1 or +2 player? I figure even if it's a full stroke for a lot of players, that's still a one-off thing. It has been 10-of-20 for several decades and presumably won't be changing again from 8-of-20 any time soon.

 

A stroke or two drop is probably the top end for most low single digit golfers. But in terms of 'personally perceived golfing skills', a stroke or two at that level is a big deal (or at least that is how I would perceive it, I believe).

 

dave

[North Butte]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > In the end, at least in the USA, I think this will have very little impact. The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings. US handicaps will probably drop a bit since it is the last 8 out of 20, instead of 10 out of 20.

> > > >

> > > > People who've gone back and re-figured their recent rounds both ways seem to find the 8-of-20 and removing the 0.96 multiplier seem to just about cancel out on average.

> > >

> > > It probably depends on how you slice it. Across all US handicaps (in aggregate) there may be little change. OTOH, for golfers around scratch, dropping 0.96 changes almost nothing but surely dropping from 10/20 to 8/20 will be a meaningful change.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > You think it would ever be more than a stroke for even a +1 or +2 player? I figure even if it's a full stroke for a lot of players, that's still a one-off thing. It has been 10-of-20 for several decades and presumably won't be changing again from 8-of-20 any time soon.

>

> A stroke or two drop is probably the top end for most low single digit golfers. But in terms of 'personally perceived golfing skills', a stroke or two at that level is a big deal (or at least that is how I would perceive it, I believe).

>

> dave

 

Oh, I think it's definitely going to be seen as "My handicap in the old system was 5.3 but it's 3.9 in the new one" kind of thing. People are definitely going to perceive their pre-Nov, 2020 and post-Nov, 2020 handicaps are non-comparable to some extent. And there will be complaining.

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > > In the end, at least in the USA, I think this will have very little impact. The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings. US handicaps will probably drop a bit since it is the last 8 out of 20, instead of 10 out of 20.

> > > > >

> > > > > People who've gone back and re-figured their recent rounds both ways seem to find the 8-of-20 and removing the 0.96 multiplier seem to just about cancel out on average.

> > > >

> > > > It probably depends on how you slice it. Across all US handicaps (in aggregate) there may be little change. OTOH, for golfers around scratch, dropping 0.96 changes almost nothing but surely dropping from 10/20 to 8/20 will be a meaningful change.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > You think it would ever be more than a stroke for even a +1 or +2 player? I figure even if it's a full stroke for a lot of players, that's still a one-off thing. It has been 10-of-20 for several decades and presumably won't be changing again from 8-of-20 any time soon.

> >

> > A stroke or two drop is probably the top end for most low single digit golfers. But in terms of 'personally perceived golfing skills', a stroke or two at that level is a big deal (or at least that is how I would perceive it, I believe).

> >

> > dave

>

> Oh, I think it's definitely going to be seen as "My handicap in the old system was 5.3 but it's 3.9 in the new one" kind of thing. People are definitely going to perceive their pre-Nov, 2020 and post-Nov, 2020 handicaps are non-comparable to some extent. And there will be complaining.

>

>

 

Golfers complaining about the handicap system ?!?!?!? Never gonna happen :) :) :)

 

dave

[North Butte]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > > > In the end, at least in the USA, I think this will have very little impact. The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings. US handicaps will probably drop a bit since it is the last 8 out of 20, instead of 10 out of 20.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > People who've gone back and re-figured their recent rounds both ways seem to find the 8-of-20 and removing the 0.96 multiplier seem to just about cancel out on average.

> > > > >

> > > > > It probably depends on how you slice it. Across all US handicaps (in aggregate) there may be little change. OTOH, for golfers around scratch, dropping 0.96 changes almost nothing but surely dropping from 10/20 to 8/20 will be a meaningful change.

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > >

> > > > You think it would ever be more than a stroke for even a +1 or +2 player? I figure even if it's a full stroke for a lot of players, that's still a one-off thing. It has been 10-of-20 for several decades and presumably won't be changing again from 8-of-20 any time soon.

> > >

> > > A stroke or two drop is probably the top end for most low single digit golfers. But in terms of 'personally perceived golfing skills', a stroke or two at that level is a big deal (or at least that is how I would perceive it, I believe).

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > Oh, I think it's definitely going to be seen as "My handicap in the old system was 5.3 but it's 3.9 in the new one" kind of thing. People are definitely going to perceive their pre-Nov, 2020 and post-Nov, 2020 handicaps are non-comparable to some extent. And there will be complaining.

> >

> >

>

> Golfers complaining about the handicap system ?!?!?!? Never gonna happen :) :) :)

>

> dave

 

Boy, I wouldn't stoop to anything like that. I do have my pride!!!

[Augster]

Mine is currently 7.1. And 8/20 is 7.1. Crazy.

[Newby]

> @dlygrisse said:

>

The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings.

 

Not really. It's only GB&I and Argentina that don't use slope at the moment. Mainland Europe, South Africa and Australia do.

 

[QEight]

> @Newby said:

> > @dlygrisse said:

> >

> The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings.

>

> Not really. It's only GB&I and Argentina that don't use slope at the moment. Mainland Europe, South Africa and Australia do.

>

 

But you took some 10 extra months for transition in CONGU lands.

[Colin L]

I think that the November 2020 start was decided on partly to allow time for rating of courses in England to be completed and to get the software reliably in place. It also gives a period over the winter of relatively low activity in handicapping terms for us to get things right for the start of the main competition season. I don't understand what is meant by "trial and error on the slope ratings."

[Newby]

> @QEight said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @dlygrisse said:

> > >

> > The R and A countries seem they might have a bit more of a learning curve and trial and error on the slope ratings.

> >

> > Not really. It's only GB&I and Argentina that don't use slope at the moment. Mainland Europe, South Africa and Australia do.

> >

>

> But you took some 10 extra months for transition in CONGU lands.

 

Not all national associations around the world are transitioning at the same time.

[Roadking2003]

> @Schulzmc said:

> Most of you know a lot more about the system than I do. My question is this - how will the new WHS affect the following situation?

> We have a guy at my club that consistently wins when it matters. Always wins his flight in the member/guest. Wins or places in 5 out of the 6 individual competitions we have each year. Examining his handicap record shows for the last two years his tournament scores have averaged 7.2 strokes better than his regular posted scores. But our handicap committee is at a loss as to what to do, because all his regular scores posted are legit rounds with his friends and others at the club. Either he is purposely missing putts, etc. on a weekly basis in regular rounds to keep his handicap up, or he simply is so clutch he plays better when the pressure is on.

> Would a new handicap system that is based primarily on actual competition scores help in this case? It seems like it would.

 

No, it will not. There are many ways to sandbag and the new WHS will not stop a sandbagger.

[Newby]

> @Schulzmc said:

 

> Would a new handicap system that is based primarily on actual competition scores help in this case? It seems like it would.

 

Possibly. My impression is that sandbagging in singles play is far less prevalent in Europe generally than North America. It does however raise its head in 4BBB open competitions where players protect a high cap in singles comps but go pot hunting with a like minded partner in better balls where there are good prizes to be won.

However, England Golf in particular have now required that all 4BBB scores have to be reported to the home club by the player and the away club, so that the home club can take action as appropriate.

[bladehunter]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > That replacement for ESC is going to befuddle about 75% of golfers. I fear it's going to make indexes less accurate.

> > Are you really suggesting that all American golfers are less intelligent than the golfers in the rest of the world?

> >

> >

>

> Now, now. Don't be insulting. It is most, not all. ;-)

 

Absolutely took the words from my mouth.

[bladehunter]

So this goes in November 2020 ?

 

So next season will be same as this and really 2021 season is first for the new setup ? I’m extremely late looking into this. As in just now.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @bladehunter said:

> So this goes in November 2020 ?

>

> So next season will be same as this and really 2021 season is first for the new setup ? I’m extremely late looking into this. As in just now.

 

Blade I'll share with you what I know in my communication with the USGA;

1. Hole by hole posting will not be required, though is recommended just as it is now. (Can't do it via the GHIN phone app currently anyway)

2. Confirmed that ESC is going away and being replaced by Net Double Bogey.

3. When I asked about the phone app for posting, they said the posting methodology should not change and will be dependent upon the computation posting service used by the club.

 

While I didn't ask specifically, there was nothing about attestation or pre-registration of rounds. If we're using the same posting methodology I'm not sure how that could even be supported.

[Colin L]

> @bladehunter said:

> So this goes in November 2020 ?

>

> So next season will be same as this and really 2021 season is first for the new setup ? I’m extremely late looking into this. As in just now.

 

The WHS will be launched in January 2020. Implementation dates may vary amongst the handicapping authorities. For us in the CONGU jurisdiction, the implementation date is 1st November 2020 - which means that our next competition season will be under the present system.

 

[North Butte]

They will change averaging in the back end calculations to be eight of 20 with no 0.96 multiplier. And they will tell people to start using NDB instead of ESC. Presumably many people will make the ESC/NDB switch, I doubt everyone will and compliance will be a mixed bag.

 

Other than that, not much will change in 2020 on the USGA side. Most of the changes at this point are for CONGU folks.

[scott_Donald]

How does the slope effect everything? we were chatting about it today -

Old Course on Saturday 127, Royal Aberdeen today at 142, Cruden bay 126 and Cypresswood Tradition 130.

 

[SkiSchoolPro]

> @scott_Donald said:

> How does the slope effect everything? we were chatting about it today -

> Old Course on Saturday 127, Royal Aberdeen today at 142, Cruden bay 126 and Cypresswood Tradition 130.

>

 

Your handicap might be higher on a higher slope course, so this can SLIGHTLY affect net double bogey adjustments. I think this is an improvement compared to the current system as the change is very gradual across all caps. As it stands now, if you are a 9 on a lower slope course, your ESC max is gross double, but it jumps up to 7 on all holes if you are a 10 on a higher slope course.

[Newby]

> @scott_Donald said:

> How does the slope effect everything? we were chatting about it today -

> Old Course on Saturday 127, Royal Aberdeen today at 142, Cruden bay 126 and Cypresswood Tradition 130.

>

Are you asking re your Aberdeen, Scotland affiliation or re your Houston, USA affiliation?

The answers are very different.

 

[scott_Donald]

> @Newby said:

> Are you asking re your Aberdeen, Scotland affiliation or re your Houston, USA affiliation?

> The answers are very different.

>

well for both really.

 

Assuming its past November next year. My home course slope is 142 but all the other courses I play are 130 or lower.

 

If a friend who plays at a 122 slope course came and played on a 142 course.

If I go from a 142 course to a 122 course etc.

 

I played the old course(127) Saturday and shot 78, then played Royal Aberdeen(142) on Sunday and shot 78 so for future handicapping how will then relate to one another. Chatting away with a member of both courses the last medal at RA the standard scratch was 76 and the last medal my friend played at the Old course 2 weeks ago the standard scratch was 76.

[larrybud]

Anybody know the graduation of scores for new handicaps? From what I've read, a new player will require 54 holes (rather than 90 holes from the USGA).

However, how many scores will be used when a player has fewer than 20 rounds? For example, now when a player has 5 or 6 rounds, the single best differential is used. What will be the replacement of the chart below?

 

[HatsForBats]

> I played the old course(127) Saturday and shot 78, then played Royal Aberdeen(142) on Sunday and shot 78 so for future handicapping how will then relate to one another. Chatting away with a member of both courses the last medal at RA the standard scratch was 76 and the last medal my friend played at the Old course 2 weeks ago the standard scratch was 76.

 

**127 Course Slope ; 76.0 Course Rating (SSS)**

-

2.5 index has a Course handicap = 3 | 2.5 * 127 / 113

12.5 Index has a Course handicap = 14 | 12.5 * 127 / 113

22.5 index has a Course Handicap = 25 | 22.5 * 127 / 113

 

2.5 index shoots 78 = 1.8 Differential | (78 -76.0) * 113 / 127

12.5 index shoots 88 = 10.7 Differential | (88 -76.0) * 113 / 127

22.5 index shoots 98 = 19.6 Differential | (98 – 76.0) * 113 / 127

.

.

**142 Course Slope ; 76.0 Course Rating (SSS)**

-

2.5 index has a Course handicap = 3 | 2.5 * 142 / 113

12.5 Index has a Course handicap = 16 | 12.5 * 142 / 113

22.5 index has a Course Handicap = 28 | 22.5 * 142 / 113

 

2.5 index shoots 78 = 1.6 Differential | (78 -76.0) * 113 / 142

12.5 index shoots 88 = 9.5 Differential | (88 -76.0) * 113 / 142

22.5 index shoots 98 = 17.5 Differential | (98 – 76.0) * 113 / 142

 

 

 

[Imp]

> > @bladehunter said:

> > So this goes in November 2020 ?

> >

> > So next season will be same as this and really 2021 season is first for the new setup ? I’m extremely late looking into this. As in just now.

>

> Blade I'll share with you what I know in my communication with the USGA;

> 1. Hole by hole posting will not be required, though is recommended just as it is now. (Can't do it via the GHIN phone app currently anyway)

> 2. Confirmed that ESC is going away and being replaced by Net Double Bogey.

> 3. When I asked about the phone app for posting, they said the posting methodology should not change and will be dependent upon the computation posting service used by the club.

>

> While I didn't ask specifically, there was nothing about attestation or pre-registration of rounds. If we're using the same posting methodology I'm not sure how that could even be supported.

 

Mine goes from 11.2 to 9.0 (Had some good rounds lately).

 

I have no issue doing hole by hole scores either, I've just never seen any club I've played at use that as the method. They all use ESC. As the handicapper for a couple leagues I help run (when checking scores/points) I will enter hole by hole in my systems to be sure points are accurate (stableford or match).

 

 

[Colin L]

> @larrybud said:

> Anybody know the graduation of scores for new handicaps? From what I've read, a new player will require 54 holes (rather than 90 holes from the USGA).

>

Here you are. As you see there are reductions made for small numbers of scores returned.