New World Handicaps 2020

[Newby]

> @scott_Donald said:

> > @Newby said:

> > Are you asking re your Aberdeen, Scotland affiliation or re your Houston, USA affiliation?

> > The answers are very different.

> >

> well for both really.

>

> Assuming its past November next year. My home course slope is 142 but all the other courses I play are 130 or lower.

>

> If a friend who plays at a 122 slope course came and played on a 142 course.

> If I go from a 142 course to a 122 course etc.

>

> I played the old course(127) Saturday and shot 78, then played Royal Aberdeen(142) on Sunday and shot 78 so for future handicapping how will then relate to one another. Chatting away with a member of both courses the last medal at RA the standard scratch was 76 and the last medal my friend played at the Old course 2 weeks ago the standard scratch was 76.

 

I don't know if you have read the earlier parts of this thread but just in case you haven't :-

Slope is not a measure of absolute difficulty. The Course Rating (or Standard Scratch Score in old CONGU terms) tells you the difficulty for a scratch player playing from a particular set of tees on a particular course.

Slope shows the** relative** difficulty for a bogey (20ish cap) player in comparison with a scratch player from those tees. So the higher the slope, the **relatively** more difficult the course as your handicap goes up.

Your base handicap (ie Handicap Index) will be adjusted according to the Course Rating and further adjusted according to the Slope Rating.

[Imp]

> @Newby said:

> > @scott_Donald said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > Are you asking re your Aberdeen, Scotland affiliation or re your Houston, USA affiliation?

> > > The answers are very different.

> > >

> > well for both really.

> >

> > Assuming its past November next year. My home course slope is 142 but all the other courses I play are 130 or lower.

> >

> > If a friend who plays at a 122 slope course came and played on a 142 course.

> > If I go from a 142 course to a 122 course etc.

> >

> > I played the old course(127) Saturday and shot 78, then played Royal Aberdeen(142) on Sunday and shot 78 so for future handicapping how will then relate to one another. Chatting away with a member of both courses the last medal at RA the standard scratch was 76 and the last medal my friend played at the Old course 2 weeks ago the standard scratch was 76.

>

> I don't know if you have read the earlier parts of this thread but just in case you haven't :-

> Slope is not a measure of absolute difficulty. The Course Rating (or Standard Scratch Score in old CONGU terms) tells you the difficulty for a scratch player playing from a particular set of tees on a particular course.

> Slope shows the** relative** difficulty for a bogey (20ish cap) player in comparison with a scratch player from those tees. So the higher the slope, the **relatively** more difficult the course as your handicap goes up.

> Your base handicap (ie Handicap Index) will be adjusted according to the Course Rating and further adjusted according to the Slope Rating.

 

This needs to be at the top of each new page in this thread. ;)

 

--kC

[North Butte]

> @Newby said:

> Your base handicap (ie Handicap Index) will be adjusted according to the Course Rating and further adjusted according to the Slope Rating.

 

In what sense do you mean "adjusted" and "further adjusted" in this context?

 

The Course Rating does not figure in conversion of Handicap Index to Course Handicap. Only the Slope Rating (and the magic 113) are used:

 

Course Handicap = Handicap Index * (Slope Rating / 113)

 

This "Course Handicap" is the actual playing handicap used when you play a specific course. The "Handicap Index" is a number specific to the golfer that is combined with "Slope Rating" for the specific course being played.

 

P.S. That last explanation may incomplete, depending the format of play and whether you are in USGA or CONGU jurisdiction. It has been said here that CONGU will further multiply ones Course Handicap by some percentage factor even in singles plays. But I neither know that for sure or understand the details.

[bladehunter]

MY head hurts already.

[North Butte]

> @bladehunter said:

> MY head hurts already.

 

And just remember, you are in a jurisdiction in which nothing much is going to change beyond a (potential) one-time slight "bump" downward in your index when the averaging changes for 10-of-20 to 8-of-20 in November, 2020.

 

The real headaches are reserved for the guys in CONGU land. Does your golf memory go back far enough to recall the days before Course Rating, Slope Rating, Handicap Index, Course Handicap, ESC and all the rest were introduced into the USA golf lexicon? Those guys in UK are dealing with that stuff for the first time ever!

[bladehunter]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > MY head hurts already.

>

> And just remember, you are in a jurisdiction in which nothing much is going to change beyond a (potential) one-time slight "bump" downward in your index when the averaging changes for 10-of-20 to 8-of-20 in November, 2020.

>

> The real headaches are reserved for the guys in CONGU land. Does your golf memory go back far enough to recall the days before Course Rating, Slope Rating, Handicap Index, Course Handicap, ESC and all the rest were introduced into the USA golf lexicon? Those guys in UK are dealing with that stuff for the first time ever!

 

It doesn’t. But I can only imagine how tough that would be. Thanks for the info. sounds a bit better for us then.

[North Butte]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > MY head hurts already.

> >

> > And just remember, you are in a jurisdiction in which nothing much is going to change beyond a (potential) one-time slight "bump" downward in your index when the averaging changes for 10-of-20 to 8-of-20 in November, 2020.

> >

> > The real headaches are reserved for the guys in CONGU land. Does your golf memory go back far enough to recall the days before Course Rating, Slope Rating, Handicap Index, Course Handicap, ESC and all the rest were introduced into the USA golf lexicon? Those guys in UK are dealing with that stuff for the first time ever!

>

> It doesn’t. But I can only imagine how tough that would be. Thanks for the info. sounds a bit better for us then.

 

My golf only dates back to the early 90's and that stuff had been in place for a while. But even so, almost nobody I played golf with had any idea how all that was supposed to work. A decade or two after the Course Rating/Slope Rating/Handicap Index/Course Handicap implementation I'll bet less than 50% of weekend golfers could have given you correct definitions of those four terms. And the percentage ain't exactly 100% even today.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > MY head hurts already.

> >

> > And just remember, you are in a jurisdiction in which nothing much is going to change beyond a (potential) one-time slight "bump" downward in your index when the averaging changes for 10-of-20 to 8-of-20 in November, 2020.

> >

> > The real headaches are reserved for the guys in CONGU land. Does your golf memory go back far enough to recall the days before Course Rating, Slope Rating, Handicap Index, Course Handicap, ESC and all the rest were introduced into the USA golf lexicon? Those guys in UK are dealing with that stuff for the first time ever!

>

> It doesn’t. But I can only imagine how tough that would be. Thanks for the info. sounds a bit better for us then.

 

The thing is, on a day-to-day basis, all that changes for any of us is the maximum hole score. All of the calculation changes will happen in the background. All the player will need to do when starting play is to check the computer or the app for his course handicap that day.

[North Butte]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > MY head hurts already.

> > >

> > > And just remember, you are in a jurisdiction in which nothing much is going to change beyond a (potential) one-time slight "bump" downward in your index when the averaging changes for 10-of-20 to 8-of-20 in November, 2020.

> > >

> > > The real headaches are reserved for the guys in CONGU land. Does your golf memory go back far enough to recall the days before Course Rating, Slope Rating, Handicap Index, Course Handicap, ESC and all the rest were introduced into the USA golf lexicon? Those guys in UK are dealing with that stuff for the first time ever!

> >

> > It doesn’t. But I can only imagine how tough that would be. Thanks for the info. sounds a bit better for us then.

>

> The thing is, on a day-to-day basis, all that changes for any of us is the maximum hole score. All of the calculation changes will happen in the background. All the player will need to do when starting play is to check the computer or the app for his course handicap that day.

 

That's why I keep saying "nothing much will change" for USA golfers. Some of the guys I know in UK are going to think they've awakened in an alternative universe the first time they hear about this stuff.

[davep043]

> @"North Butte" said:

> That's why I keep saying "nothing much will change" for USA golfers. Some of the guys I know in UK are going to think they've awakened in an alternative universe the first time they hear about this stuff.

Again, nothing will change for them in the way they do things. Their max. hole score won't even change. Yes, the ones who are really interested in the calculations will need to learn, but many will simply post their scores as they always have, and look up today's handicap the way they always have.

 

I wonder, and perhaps some of our friends in the British Isles can let us know, do many people really understand in detail how the current CONGU ratchet system works? I've read portions of the CONGU manual myself, so I have the beginnings of a basic understanding, but do most players really understand it?

 

[North Butte]

> @davep043 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > That's why I keep saying "nothing much will change" for USA golfers. Some of the guys I know in UK are going to think they've awakened in an alternative universe the first time they hear about this stuff.

> Again, nothing will change for them in the way they do things. Their max. hole score won't even change. Yes, the ones who are really interested in the calculations will need to learn, but many will simply post their scores as they always have, and look up today's handicap the way they always have.

>

> I wonder, and perhaps some of our friends in the British Isles can let us know, do many people really understand in detail how the current CONGU ratchet system works? I've read portions of the CONGU manual myself, so I have the beginnings of a basic understanding, but do most players really understand it?

>

 

So perhaps I don't understand. Does a CONGU golfer currently have an analog to separate "Handicap Index" and "Course Handicap"? It was my understanding that they have a "Handicap" which is the same no matter what course or tees they are playing?

 

If they already apply some course-specific factor to a golfer-specific index of some kind then you're right, it will all seem pretty transparent. But I am almost certain that when I was last over there (three years ago now) there wasn't any such concept. Your playing handicap was simply a rounded-off version of an "exact" handicap and was invariant no matter where you played or what tees.

 

If that's true, there's a huge culture shock coming for them. But maybe that's already behind them and my information is out of date. I certainly know when I explained the necessity of a Slope Rating for convert my USGA index into a playing handicap, I got blank stares from the other golfers as well as the club professionals. They simply used my index and rounded it up or down and I play off that (even on courses which would have Slope Ratings far above 113).

[Newby]

**DaveP

but do most players really understand it?**

Upto a point. They understand their handicap will (only) go up by 0.1 however poor their score for that round. They also understand it will come down by 0.x for each stroke they are under the computed Competition Scratch Score (CSS) for the competition. That is the equivalent of the Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC) in the WHS. The '0.x' varies from 0.1 to 0.4 depending on how high the player's handicap is (ie what category he is in)

A difficult bit occurs when the player's handicap comes down and he moves from one category to the next one

But the really tricky part is knowing (or not knowing) what the CSS is going to be and how it is calculated. Please don't ask - you really don't want to know. (More correctly, I don't want to try and answer)

[North Butte]

> @Newby said:

> Upto a point. They understand their handicap will (only) go up by 0.1 however poor their score for that round. They also understand it will come down by 0.x for each stroke they are under the computed Competition Scratch Score (CSS) for the competition. That is the equivalent of the Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC) in the WHS. The '0.x' varies from 0.1 to 0.4 depending on how high the player's handicap is (ie what category he is in)

> A difficult bit occurs when the player's handicap come down and he moves from one category to the next one down.

> But the really tricky part is knowing (or not knowing) what the CSS is going to be and how it is calculated. Please don't ask - yoe really dom't want to know.

 

You're talking about how a player's handicap is calculated from this scores, after he has played.

 

I'm asking if his playing handicap varies from course to course and tee to tee (like ours do in USA) or if his handicap is the same no matter what course he is going to be playing.

 

To this day I occasionally hear older guys grumble that they can just use the Handicap Index instead of needing to check the GHIN app to convert it to a Course Handicap. And that system's been in place for, what, 30+ years now?

[Deceptively Short]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > That's why I keep saying "nothing much will change" for USA golfers. Some of the guys I know in UK are going to think they've awakened in an alternative universe the first time they hear about this stuff.

> > Again, nothing will change for them in the way they do things. Their max. hole score won't even change. Yes, the ones who are really interested in the calculations will need to learn, but many will simply post their scores as they always have, and look up today's handicap the way they always have.

> >

> > I wonder, and perhaps some of our friends in the British Isles can let us know, do many people really understand in detail how the current CONGU ratchet system works? I've read portions of the CONGU manual myself, so I have the beginnings of a basic understanding, but do most players really understand it?

> >

>

> So perhaps I don't understand. Does a CONGU golfer currently have an analog to separate "Handicap Index" and "Course Handicap"? It was my understanding that they have a "Handicap" which is the same no matter what course or tees they are playing?

>

> If they already apply some course-specific factor to a golfer-specific index of some kind then you're right, it will all seem pretty transparent. But I am almost certain that when I was last over there (three years ago now) there wasn't any such concept. Your playing handicap was simply a rounded-off version of an "exact" handicap and was invariant no matter where you played or what tees.

>

> If that's true, there's a huge culture shock coming for them. But maybe that's already behind them and my information is out of date. I certainly know when I explained the necessity of a Slope Rating for convert my USGA index into a playing handicap, I got blank stares from the other golfers as well as the club professionals. They simply used my index and rounded it up or down and I play off that (even on courses which would have Slope Ratings far above 113).

 

To answer some of your questions, my experience suggests that most CONGU players have a relatively good knowledge of the ratchet system. ‘Another 0.1’ (i.e. the handicap addition result of a score higher than your buffer zone) is a well known expression, and a typical response to ‘how did you get on in today’s comp?’ Would be ‘not much good but was in the buffer zone’ is readily understood by most. Also many will ask ‘I wonder what the CSS is today?’ and will not receive baffled looks - so the terminology and system is pretty well understood.

As for this new change being a massive culture shock, I think this is an overestimation. In seminars run to explain the changes there is interest not unrest. People are keen to know what slope and course rating means and will get their heads around it soon enough; the concept of receiving a different number of handicap strokes dependent on tee and course is new but will be accepted pretty quickly.

Don’t forget that all the changes to handicaps only occur following competitions and the odd pre registered attested supplementary/social score. Most players tend to play most of their golf at their home course normally off the same tees so they will get/give the same number of strokes. The move to an average of 8 out 20 has been seemingly been taken in the average golfer’s stride.

[Deceptively Short]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > That's why I keep saying "nothing much will change" for USA golfers. Some of the guys I know in UK are going to think they've awakened in an alternative universe the first time they hear about this stuff.

> > > Again, nothing will change for them in the way they do things. Their max. hole score won't even change. Yes, the ones who are really interested in the calculations will need to learn, but many will simply post their scores as they always have, and look up today's handicap the way they always have.

> > >

> > > I wonder, and perhaps some of our friends in the British Isles can let us know, do many people really understand in detail how the current CONGU ratchet system works? I've read portions of the CONGU manual myself, so I have the beginnings of a basic understanding, but do most players really understand it?

> > >

> >

> > So perhaps I don't understand. Does a CONGU golfer currently have an analog to separate "Handicap Index" and "Course Handicap"? It was my understanding that they have a "Handicap" which is the same no matter what course or tees they are playing?

> >

> > If they already apply some course-specific factor to a golfer-specific index of some kind then you're right, it will all seem pretty transparent. But I am almost certain that when I was last over there (three years ago now) there wasn't any such concept. Your playing handicap was simply a rounded-off version of an "exact" handicap and was invariant no matter where you played or what tees.

> >

> > If that's true, there's a huge culture shock coming for them. But maybe that's already behind them and my information is out of date. I certainly know when I explained the necessity of a Slope Rating for convert my USGA index into a playing handicap, I got blank stares from the other golfers as well as the club professionals. They simply used my index and rounded it up or down and I play off that (even on courses which would have Slope Ratings far above 113).

>

> To answer some of your questions, my experience suggests that most CONGU players have a relatively good knowledge of the ratchet system. ‘Another 0.1’ (i.e. the handicap addition result of a score higher than your buffer zone) is a well known expression, and a typical response to ‘how did you get on in today’s comp?’ Would be ‘not much good but was in the buffer zone’ is readily understood by most. Also many will ask ‘I wonder what the CSS is today?’ and will not receive baffled looks - so the terminology and system is pretty well understood.

> As for this new change being a massive culture shock, I think this is an overestimation. In seminars run to explain the changes there is interest not unrest. People are keen to know what slope and course rating means and will get their heads around it soon enough; the concept of receiving a different number of handicap strokes dependent on tee and course is new but will be accepted pretty quickly.

> Don’t forget that all the changes to handicaps only occur following competitions and the odd pre registered attested supplementary/social score. Most players tend to play most of their golf at their home course normally off the same tees so they will get/give the same number of strokes. The move to an average of 8 out 20 has been seemingly been taken in the average golfer’s stride.

 

Just to add had the move included the option just to put 2 digits into a phone app as a score for handicap or acceptance of matchplay (singles or BB) or ‘most likely scores’ or incomplete rounds or non hole by hole scoring or non attested rounds being accepted or better ball strokeplay scores being acceptable now then there would have been uproar not just culture shock.

 

[Halebopp]

> @davep043 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > That's why I keep saying "nothing much will change" for USA golfers. Some of the guys I know in UK are going to think they've awakened in an alternative universe the first time they hear about this stuff.

> Again, nothing will change for them in the way they do things. Their max. hole score won't even change. Yes, the ones who are really interested in the calculations will need to learn, but many will simply post their scores as they always have, and look up today's handicap the way they always have.

>

> I wonder, and perhaps some of our friends in the British Isles can let us know, do many people really understand in detail how the current CONGU ratchet system works? I've read portions of the CONGU manual myself, so I have the beginnings of a basic understanding, but do most players really understand it?

>

 

I'd say in our corner of the EGAland, a fair share of players simply play their rounds and return their scorecards without much care for the specifics but those who do care understand the system well enough. It's easy to get on board with as for beginners (handicaps between 36-54) the handicaps go down a full stroke for every point they're over 36 points and only starts to go up 0.1 strokes and are introduced to the concept of buffer zone once they're below 36.

 

Replacing Stableford with the max stroke format will most probably cause a bit of confusion as stroke-play scores and Stableford scores were easy to see as separate scores but three different stroke-play scores (gross, net and NDB max score) can only add to the confusion. Luckily we do post hole-by-hole so there's no need to worry about anything else than what you shot on each hole.

[North Butte]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > That's why I keep saying "nothing much will change" for USA golfers. Some of the guys I know in UK are going to think they've awakened in an alternative universe the first time they hear about this stuff.

> > > Again, nothing will change for them in the way they do things. Their max. hole score won't even change. Yes, the ones who are really interested in the calculations will need to learn, but many will simply post their scores as they always have, and look up today's handicap the way they always have.

> > >

> > > I wonder, and perhaps some of our friends in the British Isles can let us know, do many people really understand in detail how the current CONGU ratchet system works? I've read portions of the CONGU manual myself, so I have the beginnings of a basic understanding, but do most players really understand it?

> > >

> >

> > So perhaps I don't understand. Does a CONGU golfer currently have an analog to separate "Handicap Index" and "Course Handicap"? It was my understanding that they have a "Handicap" which is the same no matter what course or tees they are playing?

> >

> > If they already apply some course-specific factor to a golfer-specific index of some kind then you're right, it will all seem pretty transparent. But I am almost certain that when I was last over there (three years ago now) there wasn't any such concept. Your playing handicap was simply a rounded-off version of an "exact" handicap and was invariant no matter where you played or what tees.

> >

> > If that's true, there's a huge culture shock coming for them. But maybe that's already behind them and my information is out of date. I certainly know when I explained the necessity of a Slope Rating for convert my USGA index into a playing handicap, I got blank stares from the other golfers as well as the club professionals. They simply used my index and rounded it up or down and I play off that (even on courses which would have Slope Ratings far above 113).

>

> To answer some of your questions, my experience suggests that most CONGU players have a relatively good knowledge of the ratchet system. ‘Another 0.1’ (i.e. the handicap addition result of a score higher than your buffer zone) is a well known expression, and a typical response to ‘how did you get on in today’s comp?’ Would be ‘not much good but was in the buffer zone’ is readily understood by most. Also many will ask ‘I wonder what the CSS is today?’ and will not receive baffled looks - so the terminology and system is pretty well understood.

> As for this new change being a massive culture shock, I think this is an overestimation. In seminars run to explain the changes there is interest not unrest. People are keen to know what slope and course rating means and will get their heads around it soon enough; the concept of receiving a different number of handicap strokes dependent on tee and course is new but will be accepted pretty quickly.

> Don’t forget that all the changes to handicaps only occur following competitions and the odd pre registered attested supplementary/social score. Most players tend to play most of their golf at their home course normally off the same tees so they will get/give the same number of strokes. The move to an average of 8 out 20 has been seemingly been taken in the average golfer’s stride.

 

I think we're still discussing different things. I am not talking about how handicaps change over time or how results of a completed comp impact the golfer's future handicap.

 

Right now my USGA Handicap Index is 16.6 and when I play my usual tees at my usual course (Slope Rating 129) my Course Handicap is 19. So my playing handicap is that 19, the 16.6 number is never actually used.

 

If I go play the course I play on vacation the Slope Rating is just 123. So with my same Handicap Index of 16.6 when I play down there I get 18 strokes.

 

In CONGU, if a golfer's exact handicap is 16.6 my understanding is that he will play off a handicap of 17 no matter what course he plays. Is my understanding correct?

[Newby]

> @"North Butte" said:

 

> So perhaps I don't understand. Does a CONGU golfer currently have an analog to separate "Handicap Index" and "Course Handicap"? It was my understanding that they have a "Handicap" which is the same no matter what course or tees they are playing?

>

> If they already apply some course-specific factor to a golfer-specific index of some kind then you're right, it will all seem pretty transparent. But I am almost certain that when I was last over there (three years ago now) there wasn't any such concept. Your playing handicap was simply a rounded-off version of an "exact" handicap and was invariant no matter where you played or what tees.

>

> If that's true, there's a huge culture shock coming for them. But maybe that's already behind them and my information is out of date. I certainly know when I explained the necessity of a Slope Rating for convert my USGA index into a playing handicap, I got blank stares from the other golfers as well as the club professionals. They simply used my index and rounded it up or down and I play off that (even on courses which would have Slope Ratings far above 113).

>

Yes. A player has an Exact Handicap (to 1 dec place) that has been calculated based on all the competitive rounds played. It is rounded to give a playing Handicap. It is the same for every course.

 

However, when players have asked me about _ 'this new system' _ they have all responded positively to the slope aspect and therefore the idea of handicaps being related to relative measured difficulty. Most haven't bothered to try and get to grips with the machinations yet because when told it is simply means looking at a chart in the locker room or proshop or looking at an app on their phone they simply said 'Great, easy peasy then'.

Pretty well everyone has also been positive about the 8/20 averaging system.

 

[North Butte]

> @Newby said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

>

> > So perhaps I don't understand. Does a CONGU golfer currently have an analog to separate "Handicap Index" and "Course Handicap"? It was my understanding that they have a "Handicap" which is the same no matter what course or tees they are playing?

> >

> > If they already apply some course-specific factor to a golfer-specific index of some kind then you're right, it will all seem pretty transparent. But I am almost certain that when I was last over there (three years ago now) there wasn't any such concept. Your playing handicap was simply a rounded-off version of an "exact" handicap and was invariant no matter where you played or what tees.

> >

> > If that's true, there's a huge culture shock coming for them. But maybe that's already behind them and my information is out of date. I certainly know when I explained the necessity of a Slope Rating for convert my USGA index into a playing handicap, I got blank stares from the other golfers as well as the club professionals. They simply used my index and rounded it up or down and I play off that (even on courses which would have Slope Ratings far above 113).

> >

> Yes. A player has an Exact Handicap (to 1 dec place) that has been calculated based on all the competitive rounds played. It is rounded to give a playing Handicap. It is the same for every course.

>

> However, when players have asked me about _ 'this new system' _ they have all responded positively to the slope aspect and therefore the idea of handicaps being related to relative measured difficulty. Most haven't bothered to try and get to grips with the machinations yet because when told it is simply means looking at a chart in the locker room or proshop or looking at an app on their phone they simply said 'Great, easy peasy then'.

> Pretty well everyone has also been positive about the 8/20 averaging system.

>

 

OK, maybe slope will be a welcomed change to the CONGU system. It didn't go down well over here but as we've discussed at length we're talking two very different cultures.

[davep043]

 

> @"North Butte" said:

> I think we're still discussing different things. I am not talking about how handicaps change over time or how results of a completed comp impact the golfer's future handicap.

>

> Right now my USGA Handicap Index is 16.6 and when I play my usual tees at my usual course (Slope Rating 129) my Course Handicap is 19. So my playing handicap is that 19, the 16.6 number is never actually used.

>

> If I go play the course I play on vacation the Slope Rating is just 123. So with my same Handicap Index of 16.6 when I play down there I get 18 strokes.

>

> In CONGU, if a golfer's exact handicap is 16.6 my understanding is that he will play off a handicap of 17 no matter what course he plays. Is my understanding correct?

 

I think you ARE talking apples and oranges. At the moment, CONGU updates handicaps after each new score is entered, whether its a competition score or a qualifying casual round. Consequently, the player will need to check his handicap after each score. Currently, they do NOT adjust for Slope, so that will be a new step, if indeed their software doesn't automatically calculate their home course handicap for them. I know that if I look up someone handicap at the course computer, it will list his index, as well as his course handicap from each of the tees.

Based on much of this discussion, it seems that our English friends have more faith in the intelligence (or maybe the adaptability) of their playing companions than some of us in the US do.

> @"North Butte" said:

> To this day I occasionally hear older guys grumble that they can just use the Handicap Index instead of needing to check the GHIN app to convert it to a Course Handicap. And that system's been in place for, what, 30+ years now?

To me, its silly to worry at all about someone who has had so little interest in understanding the handicap system that they haven't learned even that little bit over the last 30 years. He hasn't paid attention before, he's not going to pay attention a year from now.

 

[scott_Donald]

Thank you everyone for answering me.

 

I am really looking forward to the change here in Scotland. Its funny whenever I played somewhere they would always say oh you are Royal Aberdeen your handicap will travel well.

 

The one thing I really want to do is post my scores in Texas for the 10 months I will be there to match with the 2 months I will be in Scotland. I assume I now have to join the USGA when I get back to Texas on Friday.

[North Butte]

> Currently, they do NOT adjust for Slope, so that will be a new step, if indeed their software doesn't automatically calculate their home course handicap for them.

 

This was the part I was asking about. And Newby tells us it will be new to CONGU folks but the ones he's talked to seem OK with it.

 

Keep in mind handicap holders in CONGU are not "casual golfers" of the type frequently holding USGA handicaps. I'd expect guys who turn in 50+ cards a year from formal comps to be must more attentive to the details of handicapping than the typical USA golfer using his handicap to play in low-stakes money games with his Saturday morning buddies.

 

 

> @davep043 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > To this day I occasionally hear older guys grumble that they can just use the Handicap Index instead of needing to check the GHIN app to convert it to a Course Handicap. And that system's been in place for, what, 30+ years now?

> To me, its silly to worry at all about someone who has had so little interest in understanding the handicap system that they haven't learned even that little bit over the last 30 years. He hasn't paid attention before, he's not going to pay attention a year from now.

 

The guy I'm talking about is in USA. He is not going to experience any change a year from now.

 

I was simply saying that understanding and acceptance of the split between "Handicap Index" and "Slope Rating" was in my experience *very* slow among USA golfers. I hope it goes over much more readily in UK but a decade-plus into that system over here almost nobody I met totally understood it and now decades later there are still people who seem to find it puzzling.

 

So I'm not "worried" about my friend. I'm simply reporting my friend's complaints. To the extent I'm "worried" at all (which is an overstatement) I am concerned that my UK friends may be in for a period of confusion and frustration.

[davep043]

> @scott_Donald said:

> Thank you everyone for answering me.

>

> I am really looking forward to the change here in Scotland. Its funny whenever I played somewhere they would always say oh you are Royal Aberdeen your handicap will travel well.

>

> The one thing I really want to do is post my scores in Texas for the 10 months I will be there to match with the 2 months I will be in Scotland. I assume I now have to join the USGA when I get back to Texas on Friday.

 

Are you a member of a club in Texas? If so, you're probably registered for a USGA handicap already, check with the pro.

[Roadking2003]

> @"North Butte" said:

> OK, maybe slope will be a welcomed change to the CONGU system. **It didn't go down well over here** but as we've discussed at length we're talking two very different cultures.

 

I'm not sure why you think that. I've never heard anybody criticize slope.

[North Butte]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > OK, maybe slope will be a welcomed change to the CONGU system. **It didn't go down well over here** but as we've discussed at length we're talking two very different cultures.

>

> I'm not sure why you think that. I've never heard anybody criticize slope.

 

Were you playing back in the 90's? When I got my first USGA Handicap circa 1995 or 1996 the guys at the public course where I played grumbled about it all the time. And even a few years later I still met people who wanted to play money matches based on the difference in handicap index rather than Course Rating.

 

Now in fairness, this was years before the advent of GHIN. A lot of the grumbling was when someone in the group wasn't playing his home course so he didn't know his Course Handicap and didn't like having to figure it out.

[Schulzmc]

If I understand "net double bogey" correctly, just that change alone will raise my handicap. At present the most I can take under ESC is a double bogie. There will now be six holes in a round where I can take a triple (where I will be getting a stroke). While rare, there will be times I enter a higher score than is possible now. Interesting.

[DaveLeeNC]

Just for completeness (and to add confusion where confusion already abounds :) )...

 

As I understand it the WHS will allow two different calculations for Course Handicap. One is the HI x Slope/113 calculation referenced frequently here. The other is to add an additional parameter such that CH = HI x Slope/113 + (CR -CoursePar) . Each implementing organization has a choice (as I understand things). That latter calculation is used in some places and makes a lot more sense, particularly now that NDB is part of the handicap process. And it is interesting that two courses in two different countries with identical Slope/CR #'s being played by two different golfers with identical HI #'s, and shooting identical gross scores, could end up posting scores that are several strokes different.

 

It is not the end of the handicapping world, but it is not what you would expect.

 

dave

[North Butte]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

 

> It is not the end of the handicapping world, but it is not what you would expect.

 

And certainly not a unified, world-wide system in which a golfer playing outside him home jurisdiction can expect to experience the same handicapping as back home.

[HatsForBats]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> Just for completeness (and to add confusion where confusion already abounds :) )...

>

> As I understand it the WHS will allow two different calculations for Course Handicap. One is the HI x Slope/113 calculation referenced frequently here. The other is to add an additional parameter such that CH = HI x Slope/113 + (CR -CoursePar) . Each implementing organization has a choice (as I understand things). That latter calculation is used in some places and makes a lot more sense, particularly now that NDB is part of the handicap process. And it is interesting that two courses in two different countries with identical Slope/CR #'s being played by two different golfers with identical HI #'s, and shooting identical gross scores, could end up posting scores that are several strokes different.

>

> It is not the end of the handicapping world, but it is not what you would expect.

>

> dave

 

Have a source/link on that?

[scott_Donald]

> @davep043 said:

> Are you a member of a club in Texas? If so, you're probably registered for a USGA handicap already, check with the pro.

 

no, I just pay to play a couple times a week.

 

Not worth being a member when I pay my membership in Scotland.