New World Handicaps 2020

[Newby]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > > > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > > > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > > > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The WHS draft says

> > > > > > > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > > > > > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Par 5

> > > > > > > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > > > > > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Newby, are you still of the opinion that in this (your) example

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8). His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting.**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > the reduction is two (2) strokes for handicap posting? That is, the score for that hole for handicap posting in your opinion is seven (7) ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes. The resultant figure used in the handicap calculation (only) is net double bogey ie 7 = zero stableford points

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I am utterly confused.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is your own example and in this example the player gets 1 stroke extra for this particular hole, that is, his net par is 6. Now, how do you get 7 as his net double bogey? After all, you said yourself that his NDB is 8.

> > > > I said:

> > > > As he gets 1 stroke he has scored **over** NDB (ie net 8).

> > > > The Rule in my draft says:

> > > > _A net double bogey is equal to the lowest score on a hole for which the player would achieve 0 (zero) Stableford points_

> > > >

> > > > Player A gets 0 strokes on par 5. If he scores 5 gross (5 net) he gets 2sp. If he scores 6(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 7(7) he gets 0 sp

> > > > Player B gets 1 stroke on a par 5. If he scores 6(5) he gets 2sp. If he scores 7(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 8(7) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > If he scores 9(8) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > You will see that net 7 scores zero stableford points. Therefore that is his net double bogey.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Newby, you said 'His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting' and that is not true. End of story, not interested to continue this any longer as you do not seem to understand where you went wrong.

> > >

> > > Furthermore, 7 is NOT his NDB as he has **one stroke **for that hole. I wonder why this is so difficult...

> >

> > Where on earth did that stroke come from. He had a gross 9. The stroke gave him a net 8. He needed a net 6 to get a point. 7 gets no points.

>

> That stroke came from your own post. You wrote that the player has one stroke for that hole. I understood it so that his par for the hole to earn 2 points is 6. Thus his gross score to be posted is 8 (net 7 = 0 points) which is 1 stroke smaller than the actual score 9, not 2 strokes as you wrote.

>

 

MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FOR THE CONFUSION

When I wrote

He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

I should have written

..... His **effective** gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap **purposes**

In practice, only his actual gross is posted. The other calculations are done by the system. ie his effective net is reduced to 7 for handicapping

[Halebopp]

...and I still wonder why they came up with the max-score stroke play format and decided it's a good idea to base handicaps on it. I had my assumption Americans wanted to keep their stroke play format even for handicapping as I thought that's what "they all" played but earlier on in this thread I was told otherwise.

 

Net Stableford has worked very well so far in my opinion, no confusion over strokes and points.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Newby said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > >

> > > > You would post is double bogey plus however many strokes you get on the hole. The ESC scores essentially scale like the current rules for single digit players, just with handicap strokes added in

> > >

> > > Under CONGU you would post the gross score only. The system converts the score to net double bogey if the player's net score is **greater than bogey.** This is the figure used for the player's handicap record.

> > > For competition results in a gross competition the gross score is used.

> > > For competition results in a net competition the true net score is used.

> > > For competition results in a stableford competition the stableford points score is used.

> > >

> >

> > I still don't understand. If a player takes 12 strokes to hole out on a par 5 where he gets 2 strokes, what is the number (a digit) that is stored in the handicap system?

> >

> > dave

> The number actually entered is 12. The computer knows his handicap and the stroke index of all holes

> The computer stores.

> Gross 12

> Net 10

> Adjusted net 9 (ie the lowest score which would produce zero stableford points).

>

 

Thanks for the clarification. One of your earlier posts (as I incorrectly read it) implied something else.

 

dave

[HatsForBats]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > > > > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > > > > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > > > > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The WHS draft says

> > > > > > > > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > > > > > > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Par 5

> > > > > > > > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > > > > > > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Newby, are you still of the opinion that in this (your) example

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > **He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8). His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting.**

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > the reduction is two (2) strokes for handicap posting? That is, the score for that hole for handicap posting in your opinion is seven (7) ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes. The resultant figure used in the handicap calculation (only) is net double bogey ie 7 = zero stableford points

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am utterly confused.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is your own example and in this example the player gets 1 stroke extra for this particular hole, that is, his net par is 6. Now, how do you get 7 as his net double bogey? After all, you said yourself that his NDB is 8.

> > > > > I said:

> > > > > As he gets 1 stroke he has scored **over** NDB (ie net 8).

> > > > > The Rule in my draft says:

> > > > > _A net double bogey is equal to the lowest score on a hole for which the player would achieve 0 (zero) Stableford points_

> > > > >

> > > > > Player A gets 0 strokes on par 5. If he scores 5 gross (5 net) he gets 2sp. If he scores 6(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 7(7) he gets 0 sp

> > > > > Player B gets 1 stroke on a par 5. If he scores 6(5) he gets 2sp. If he scores 7(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 8(7) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > If he scores 9(8) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > You will see that net 7 scores zero stableford points. Therefore that is his net double bogey.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Newby, you said 'His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting' and that is not true. End of story, not interested to continue this any longer as you do not seem to understand where you went wrong.

> > > >

> > > > Furthermore, 7 is NOT his NDB as he has **one stroke **for that hole. I wonder why this is so difficult...

> > >

> > > Where on earth did that stroke come from. He had a gross 9. The stroke gave him a net 8. He needed a net 6 to get a point. 7 gets no points.

> >

> > That stroke came from your own post. You wrote that the player has one stroke for that hole. I understood it so that his par for the hole to earn 2 points is 6. Thus his gross score to be posted is 8 (net 7 = 0 points) which is 1 stroke smaller than the actual score 9, not 2 strokes as you wrote.

> >

>

> MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FOR THE CONFUSION

> When I wrote

> He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

> I should have written

> ..... His **effective** gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap **purposes**

> In practice, only his actual gross is posted. The other calculations are done by the system. ie his effective net is reduced to 7 for handicapping

 

Whew. You are trying your best to make this way more confusing than it needs to be. the **effective net** you are referring to has zero to do with handicap postings or anything else for that matter. In the round the player scored a gross 9 which is a net 8 for the competition. The gross score is reduced from 9 to 8 when stroke control is applied for handicap purposes. While technically that stroke control adjusted gross score of 8 would be an effective net 7 the net number is never used anywhere and has zero meaning.... unless we are missing something?

 

Par 5 - all players scoring a 12 or above

A player that is giving 1 stroke would have the gross reduced to 6 for handicap purposes

A player that gets 0 strokes would have the gross reduced to 7 for handicap purposes

A player that gets 1 stroke would have the gross reduced to 8 for handicap purposes

A player that gets 2 strokes would have the gross reduced to 9 for handicap purposes

A player that gets 3 strokes would have the gross reduced to 10 for handicap purposes

A player that gets 4 strokes would have the gross reduced to 11 for handicap purposes

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > Back to the topic of net double bogey and what to post as the max gross score for handicapping purposes - I agree with Colin. The gross score to be posted for handicapping is par plus 2 plus the number of strokes received on that hole. So a par 5 where the player receives one stroke, maximum gross score posted for handicap purposes = 5+2+1=8.

> > > It is really that simple.

> >

> > It's very easy if someone is a zero, 18, 36 cap etc. However now for example the 15 (or anyone else) will have to know where they are getting blows to figure out NDB. That's often not important, but now it will be. I see people doing it wrong, making errors or simply take the lazy way out and out of and post less.

>

> You are making something out of nothing unless in the USA scorecards don't show the stroke index. It's the work of a moment to mark up in some way the holes at which you receive a stroke. Then you have a visual clue as to where your net double bogey or Stableford points are affected. Very simple, very quick.

>

> Here's a typical scorecard marked up for a player receiving 9 strokes. It's obviously quicker if you receive 10 to 18 to cross out the holes where you don't get a stroke. I always do this in matchplay to note where I get stroke from or give one to my opponent. In fourball, I find it very helpful to mark up where my partner gets a stroke as well. It's simple, quick and effective.

>

>

>

>

 

NDB isn't complicated but it will add logistics that typically aren't part of the US golfers experience. You need to understand how most golfers in the US play. My circle of people mostly play stroke play, which I'm guessing is most common for most others here in the US. So knowing how many strokes we get hole by hole is usually not a consideration. 75% of my golf is stroke play or Par points, neither of which cares about strokes per hole.

 

ESC is easy because it's mostly a fixed number that only moves when HC changes in increments of 10. Example since most US golfers HC are between 10 and <20 their max postable score on any hole is a 7 regardless of par and strokes received. It's very easy to recall any hole that was 8 or worse. Then all we need is our final score and subtract any strokes over 7. Very easy. We keep one card for the group, one guy typically tally's the score, we get our number and then subtract 1 off the 8 we got and post that final number.

 

Logistically NDB is far more complex by comparison. Now each guy will likely need to keep their own card and mark up for strokes or one guy will need to do it for the entire group, then pass it around at the end for each guy to calculate NDB scores. I could see guys taking the lazy way out and say, "I don't want to be bothered figuring out NDB today" and they won't post. Or guys forgetting to get the card from Joe who kept scores for the group and then being unable to post because he can't remember hole by hole what he got. To me anything that results in less posting is bad. NDB isn't hard, but logistically this is a BIG change for most US golfers.

[Newby]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The WHS draft says

> > > > > > > > > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > > > > > > > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Par 5

> > > > > > > > > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > > > > > > > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Newby, are you still of the opinion that in this (your) example

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > **He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8). His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting.**

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > the reduction is two (2) strokes for handicap posting? That is, the score for that hole for handicap posting in your opinion is seven (7) ?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Yes. The resultant figure used in the handicap calculation (only) is net double bogey ie 7 = zero stableford points

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I am utterly confused.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is your own example and in this example the player gets 1 stroke extra for this particular hole, that is, his net par is 6. Now, how do you get 7 as his net double bogey? After all, you said yourself that his NDB is 8.

> > > > > > I said:

> > > > > > As he gets 1 stroke he has scored **over** NDB (ie net 8).

> > > > > > The Rule in my draft says:

> > > > > > _A net double bogey is equal to the lowest score on a hole for which the player would achieve 0 (zero) Stableford points_

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Player A gets 0 strokes on par 5. If he scores 5 gross (5 net) he gets 2sp. If he scores 6(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 7(7) he gets 0 sp

> > > > > > Player B gets 1 stroke on a par 5. If he scores 6(5) he gets 2sp. If he scores 7(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 8(7) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > If he scores 9(8) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > You will see that net 7 scores zero stableford points. Therefore that is his net double bogey.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Newby, you said 'His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting' and that is not true. End of story, not interested to continue this any longer as you do not seem to understand where you went wrong.

> > > > >

> > > > > Furthermore, 7 is NOT his NDB as he has **one stroke **for that hole. I wonder why this is so difficult...

> > > >

> > > > Where on earth did that stroke come from. He had a gross 9. The stroke gave him a net 8. He needed a net 6 to get a point. 7 gets no points.

> > >

> > > That stroke came from your own post. You wrote that the player has one stroke for that hole. I understood it so that his par for the hole to earn 2 points is 6. Thus his gross score to be posted is 8 (net 7 = 0 points) which is 1 stroke smaller than the actual score 9, not 2 strokes as you wrote.

> > >

> >

> > MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FOR THE CONFUSION

> > When I wrote

> > He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> > ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

> > I should have written

> > ..... His **effective** gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap **purposes**

> > In practice, only his actual gross is posted. The other calculations are done by the system. ie his effective net is reduced to 7 for handicapping

>

> Whew. You are trying your best to make this way more confusing than it needs to be. the **effective net** you are referring to has zero to do with handicap postings or anything else for that matter. In the round the player scored a gross 9 which is a net 8 for the competition. The gross score is reduced from 9 to 8 when stroke control is applied for handicap purposes. While technically that stroke control adjusted gross score of 8 would be an effective net 7 the net number is never used anywhere and has zero meaning.... unless we are missing something?

>

> Par 5 - all players scoring a 12 or above

> A player that is giving 1 stroke would have the gross reduced to 6 for handicap purposes

> A player that gets 0 strokes would have the gross reduced to 7 for handicap purposes

> A player that gets 1 stroke would have the gross reduced to 8 for handicap purposes

> A player that gets 2 strokes would have the gross reduced to 9 for handicap purposes

> A player that gets 3 strokes would have the gross reduced to 10 for handicap purposes

> A player that gets 4 strokes would have the gross reduced to 11 for handicap purposes

 

Are you talking ESC (ie current USGA) or NDB (new WHS) ?

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > > > > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > > > > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > > > > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The WHS draft says

> > > > > > > > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > > > > > > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Par 5

> > > > > > > > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > > > > > > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Newby, are you still of the opinion that in this (your) example

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > **He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8). His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting.**

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > the reduction is two (2) strokes for handicap posting? That is, the score for that hole for handicap posting in your opinion is seven (7) ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes. The resultant figure used in the handicap calculation (only) is net double bogey ie 7 = zero stableford points

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am utterly confused.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is your own example and in this example the player gets 1 stroke extra for this particular hole, that is, his net par is 6. Now, how do you get 7 as his net double bogey? After all, you said yourself that his NDB is 8.

> > > > > I said:

> > > > > As he gets 1 stroke he has scored **over** NDB (ie net 8).

> > > > > The Rule in my draft says:

> > > > > _A net double bogey is equal to the lowest score on a hole for which the player would achieve 0 (zero) Stableford points_

> > > > >

> > > > > Player A gets 0 strokes on par 5. If he scores 5 gross (5 net) he gets 2sp. If he scores 6(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 7(7) he gets 0 sp

> > > > > Player B gets 1 stroke on a par 5. If he scores 6(5) he gets 2sp. If he scores 7(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 8(7) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > If he scores 9(8) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > You will see that net 7 scores zero stableford points. Therefore that is his net double bogey.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Newby, you said 'His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting' and that is not true. End of story, not interested to continue this any longer as you do not seem to understand where you went wrong.

> > > >

> > > > Furthermore, 7 is NOT his NDB as he has **one stroke **for that hole. I wonder why this is so difficult...

> > >

> > > Where on earth did that stroke come from. He had a gross 9. The stroke gave him a net 8. He needed a net 6 to get a point. 7 gets no points.

> >

> > That stroke came from your own post. You wrote that the player has one stroke for that hole. I understood it so that his par for the hole to earn 2 points is 6. Thus his gross score to be posted is 8 (net 7 = 0 points) which is 1 stroke smaller than the actual score 9, not 2 strokes as you wrote.

> >

>

> MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FOR THE CONFUSION

> When I wrote

> He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

> I should have written

> ..... His **effective** gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap **purposes**

> In practice, only his actual gross is posted. The other calculations are done by the system. ie his effective net is reduced to 7 for handicapping

 

What is 'effective gross score' ? And what is 'effective net' ?

[Mr. Bean]

> @Halebopp said:

> ...and I still wonder why they came up with the max-score stroke play format and decided it's a good idea to base handicaps on it.

>

> Net Stableford has worked very well so far in my opinion, no confusion over strokes and points.

 

You can say that again....

 

In Sawgrass' words: 'Why to fix something that is not broken?'

[HatsForBats]

> @Newby said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The WHS draft says

> > > > > > > > > > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > > > > > > > > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Par 5

> > > > > > > > > > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > > > > > > > > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Newby, are you still of the opinion that in this (your) example

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > **He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8). His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting.**

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > the reduction is two (2) strokes for handicap posting? That is, the score for that hole for handicap posting in your opinion is seven (7) ?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Yes. The resultant figure used in the handicap calculation (only) is net double bogey ie 7 = zero stableford points

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I am utterly confused.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is your own example and in this example the player gets 1 stroke extra for this particular hole, that is, his net par is 6. Now, how do you get 7 as his net double bogey? After all, you said yourself that his NDB is 8.

> > > > > > > I said:

> > > > > > > As he gets 1 stroke he has scored **over** NDB (ie net 8).

> > > > > > > The Rule in my draft says:

> > > > > > > _A net double bogey is equal to the lowest score on a hole for which the player would achieve 0 (zero) Stableford points_

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Player A gets 0 strokes on par 5. If he scores 5 gross (5 net) he gets 2sp. If he scores 6(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 7(7) he gets 0 sp

> > > > > > > Player B gets 1 stroke on a par 5. If he scores 6(5) he gets 2sp. If he scores 7(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 8(7) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > > If he scores 9(8) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > > You will see that net 7 scores zero stableford points. Therefore that is his net double bogey.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Newby, you said 'His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting' and that is not true. End of story, not interested to continue this any longer as you do not seem to understand where you went wrong.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Furthermore, 7 is NOT his NDB as he has **one stroke **for that hole. I wonder why this is so difficult...

> > > > >

> > > > > Where on earth did that stroke come from. He had a gross 9. The stroke gave him a net 8. He needed a net 6 to get a point. 7 gets no points.

> > > >

> > > > That stroke came from your own post. You wrote that the player has one stroke for that hole. I understood it so that his par for the hole to earn 2 points is 6. Thus his gross score to be posted is 8 (net 7 = 0 points) which is 1 stroke smaller than the actual score 9, not 2 strokes as you wrote.

> > > >

> > >

> > > MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FOR THE CONFUSION

> > > When I wrote

> > > He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> > > ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

> > > I should have written

> > > ..... His **effective** gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap **purposes**

> > > In practice, only his actual gross is posted. The other calculations are done by the system. ie his effective net is reduced to 7 for handicapping

> >

> > Whew. You are trying your best to make this way more confusing than it needs to be. the **effective net** you are referring to has zero to do with handicap postings or anything else for that matter. In the round the player scored a gross 9 which is a net 8 for the competition. The gross score is reduced from 9 to 8 when stroke control is applied for handicap purposes. While technically that stroke control adjusted gross score of 8 would be an effective net 7 the net number is never used anywhere and has zero meaning.... unless we are missing something?

> >

> > Par 5 - all players scoring a 12 or above

> > A player that is giving 1 stroke would have the gross reduced to 6 for handicap purposes

> > A player that gets 0 strokes would have the gross reduced to 7 for handicap purposes

> > A player that gets 1 stroke would have the gross reduced to 8 for handicap purposes

> > A player that gets 2 strokes would have the gross reduced to 9 for handicap purposes

> > A player that gets 3 strokes would have the gross reduced to 10 for handicap purposes

> > A player that gets 4 strokes would have the gross reduced to 11 for handicap purposes

>

> Are you talking ESC (ie current USGA) or NDB (new WHS) ?

 

Not ESC - https://www.usga.org/HandicapFAQ/handicap_answer.asp?FAQidx=9

 

NDB - https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/WHS-resources/new-world-handicap-system-designed-to-welcome-more-golfers--.html

• A limit of Net Double Bogey on the maximum hole score (for handicapping purposes only). Example: A Course Handicap of 18 receives one stroke per hole for 18 holes; the player’s max score is triple bogey on any hole, which equals a Net Double Bogey

[Halebopp]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > One thing I've never seen explained is how the NDB score will actually be transformed into the score from which the WHS counts the average. A NDB 84 is very different for players with playing handicaps of 5 and 18.

>

> Your _Handicap Index_ Is the average of your best 8 _Score Differentials_ out of 20. A _Score Differential_ is the difference between the _Gross Adjusted Score_ and the _Course Rating_ after taking away the effect of slope and any Playing Conditions Calculation

>

> Say the _Course Rating_ is 70.5, both players will have the same _Score Differential_ . Let's say it is 12.5 but for the high handicapper that is 5.5 strokes better than his _Handicap Index_ while for the low handicapper it is 7.5 strokes above his _Handicap Index_. Any effect on each player's Handicap Index, it will be the result in one instance of playing above and in the other of playing below their handicap indices.

>

>

>

 

What I was getting at was how the adjusted NDB scores are handled to come up with the numbers from which the best 8 out of 20 average is calculated. Clearly it needs to be compared to another number and is that number par or course rating? If some associations don't want to include course rating in the formula for playing handicap, do they do the ensuing math differently than those who do or do they possible disregard the CR altogether? I'd assume the NDB score would be compared to par and CR respectively.

 

Also, if two players shoot exactly the same 20 HBH gross scores (courses, tees, days are all the same and we forget about the cap on how much the handicap can go up), are there further adjustments to make their handicaps the same after the 20 rounds or will they end up with different handicaps only because their handicaps before the 20 rounds were different?

 

Just so many questions still unanswered even though we're supposed to start using the system on January 1. Luckily there are only a handful of us loonies who care about these issues as much as we do.

[davep043]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> NDB isn't complicated but it will add logistics that typically aren't part of the US golfers experience. You need to understand how **most golfers** in the US play. My circle of people mostly play stroke play, which I'm guessing is most common for most others here in the US. So knowing how many strokes we get hole by hole is usually not a consideration.

>

> Logistically NDB is far more complex by comparison. Now each guy will likely need to keep their own card and mark up for strokes or one guy will need to do it for the entire group, then pass it around at the end for each guy to calculate NDB scores. I could see guys taking the lazy way out and say, "I don't want to be bothered figuring out NDB today" and they won't post. Or guys forgetting to get the card from Joe who kept scores for the group and then being unable to post because he can't remember hole by hole what he got. To me anything that results in less posting is bad. NDB isn't hard, but logistically this is a BIG change for most US golfers.

I don't presume to know how **most golfers** in the US play. In my circle of friends, there's almost always some type of match-play game going, so we're very accustomed to marking a card with strokes. As is appropriate, we allocate strokes off the low handicap, so when using NDB we may need to mark a second card, but that's not a lot of effort. As a rule, most of us post our scores while we're having a beer and telling lies about our play, so its not a big change for us to pass the "NDB card" around the table in order to post the right score. If the app is revised to allow hole-by-hole entry, we'll do the same, pass the card around and enter scores, we just won't need to mark up a separate card. I agree that less compliance with posting requirements isn't good, but I have little sympathy for laziness or forgetfulness. I agree, NDB will be a change for US golfers, but I just don't think it will be as troublesome as many predict. The players who want to do it right will learn quickly to do it right. The ones who don't care, probably aren't doing it right now, and won't follow the new rules any better than they do right now.

Think back to the consternation over the "flag in" rule, how it is absolutely going to slow up play, how it will change the way we all putt, change scoring, all of that. I don't hear any of that now, we've all adjusted just fine.

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Halebopp said:

>Just so many questions still unanswered even though we're supposed to start using the system on January 1. Luckily there are only a handful of us loonies who care about these issues as much as we do.

 

You got that right, we are a fractional minority that cares.

 

So my posting season ends soon and won't resume until April 15. I'm going to sit back and observe how it's rolled out here rather than proactively inform people of the changes. It's going to be interesting to see how it goes.

 

[HatsForBats]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The WHS draft says

> > > > > > > > > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > > > > > > > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Par 5

> > > > > > > > > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > > > > > > > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Newby, are you still of the opinion that in this (your) example

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > **He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8). His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting.**

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > the reduction is two (2) strokes for handicap posting? That is, the score for that hole for handicap posting in your opinion is seven (7) ?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Yes. The resultant figure used in the handicap calculation (only) is net double bogey ie 7 = zero stableford points

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I am utterly confused.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is your own example and in this example the player gets 1 stroke extra for this particular hole, that is, his net par is 6. Now, how do you get 7 as his net double bogey? After all, you said yourself that his NDB is 8.

> > > > > > I said:

> > > > > > As he gets 1 stroke he has scored **over** NDB (ie net 8).

> > > > > > The Rule in my draft says:

> > > > > > _A net double bogey is equal to the lowest score on a hole for which the player would achieve 0 (zero) Stableford points_

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Player A gets 0 strokes on par 5. If he scores 5 gross (5 net) he gets 2sp. If he scores 6(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 7(7) he gets 0 sp

> > > > > > Player B gets 1 stroke on a par 5. If he scores 6(5) he gets 2sp. If he scores 7(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 8(7) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > If he scores 9(8) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > You will see that net 7 scores zero stableford points. Therefore that is his net double bogey.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Newby, you said 'His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting' and that is not true. End of story, not interested to continue this any longer as you do not seem to understand where you went wrong.

> > > > >

> > > > > Furthermore, 7 is NOT his NDB as he has **one stroke **for that hole. I wonder why this is so difficult...

> > > >

> > > > Where on earth did that stroke come from. He had a gross 9. The stroke gave him a net 8. He needed a net 6 to get a point. 7 gets no points.

> > >

> > > That stroke came from your own post. You wrote that the player has one stroke for that hole. I understood it so that his par for the hole to earn 2 points is 6. Thus his gross score to be posted is 8 (net 7 = 0 points) which is 1 stroke smaller than the actual score 9, not 2 strokes as you wrote.

> > >

> >

> > MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FOR THE CONFUSION

> > When I wrote

> > He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> > ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

> > I should have written

> > ..... His **effective** gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap **purposes**

> > In practice, only his actual gross is posted. The other calculations are done by the system. ie his effective net is reduced to 7 for handicapping

>

> What is 'effective gross score' ? And what is 'effective net' ?

 

From what I gather the effective net is the net of the net score. In my opinion a useless number but again I could be missing something. I still don't see how the 'effective gross' would be reduced by 2 when the player takes a gross 9 on a par 5 when getting 1 stroke. The end gross score, used as the hole score for handicapping purposes, would be an 8 which is a reduction of 1 stroke not 2 strokes.

[rogolf]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The WHS draft says

> > > > > > > > > > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > > > > > > > > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Par 5

> > > > > > > > > > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > > > > > > > > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Newby, are you still of the opinion that in this (your) example

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > **He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8). His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting.**

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > the reduction is two (2) strokes for handicap posting? That is, the score for that hole for handicap posting in your opinion is seven (7) ?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Yes. The resultant figure used in the handicap calculation (only) is net double bogey ie 7 = zero stableford points

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I am utterly confused.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is your own example and in this example the player gets 1 stroke extra for this particular hole, that is, his net par is 6. Now, how do you get 7 as his net double bogey? After all, you said yourself that his NDB is 8.

> > > > > > > I said:

> > > > > > > As he gets 1 stroke he has scored **over** NDB (ie net 8).

> > > > > > > The Rule in my draft says:

> > > > > > > _A net double bogey is equal to the lowest score on a hole for which the player would achieve 0 (zero) Stableford points_

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Player A gets 0 strokes on par 5. If he scores 5 gross (5 net) he gets 2sp. If he scores 6(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 7(7) he gets 0 sp

> > > > > > > Player B gets 1 stroke on a par 5. If he scores 6(5) he gets 2sp. If he scores 7(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 8(7) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > > If he scores 9(8) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > > You will see that net 7 scores zero stableford points. Therefore that is his net double bogey.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Newby, you said 'His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting' and that is not true. End of story, not interested to continue this any longer as you do not seem to understand where you went wrong.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Furthermore, 7 is NOT his NDB as he has **one stroke **for that hole. I wonder why this is so difficult...

> > > > >

> > > > > Where on earth did that stroke come from. He had a gross 9. The stroke gave him a net 8. He needed a net 6 to get a point. 7 gets no points.

> > > >

> > > > That stroke came from your own post. You wrote that the player has one stroke for that hole. I understood it so that his par for the hole to earn 2 points is 6. Thus his gross score to be posted is 8 (net 7 = 0 points) which is 1 stroke smaller than the actual score 9, not 2 strokes as you wrote.

> > > >

> > >

> > > MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FOR THE CONFUSION

> > > When I wrote

> > > He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> > > ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

> > > I should have written

> > > ..... His **effective** gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap **purposes**

> > > In practice, only his actual gross is posted. The other calculations are done by the system. ie his effective net is reduced to 7 for handicapping

> >

> > What is 'effective gross score' ? And what is 'effective net' ?

>

> From what I gather the effective net is the net of the net score. In my opinion a useless number but again I could be missing something. I still don't see how the 'effective gross' would be reduced by 2 when the player takes a gross 9 on a par 5 when getting 1 stroke. The end gross score, used as the hole score for handicapping purposes, would be an 8 which is a reduction of 1 stroke not 2 strokes.

 

Newby created this confusion by his last situation in post #720 (see below). Imo, his gross score should be reduced by 1 for handicap posting - he would post an 8 for handicap purposes.

_He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

[Newby]

There seems to be much confusion about the difference between 'posted' and 'calculated'.

No one over here will ever post a HBH net score whether adjusted or not. The only number posted will be the true HBH gross. Adjusted gross, nets and differentials will all be calculated.

 

If not entering HBH the stableford (NDB) adjustment will be done manually

 

 

 

[HatsForBats]

> @rogolf said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > The WHS draft says

> > > > > > > > > > > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > > > > > > > > > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Par 5

> > > > > > > > > > > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > > > > > > > > > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Newby, are you still of the opinion that in this (your) example

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > **He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8). His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting.**

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > the reduction is two (2) strokes for handicap posting? That is, the score for that hole for handicap posting in your opinion is seven (7) ?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Yes. The resultant figure used in the handicap calculation (only) is net double bogey ie 7 = zero stableford points

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I am utterly confused.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This is your own example and in this example the player gets 1 stroke extra for this particular hole, that is, his net par is 6. Now, how do you get 7 as his net double bogey? After all, you said yourself that his NDB is 8.

> > > > > > > > I said:

> > > > > > > > As he gets 1 stroke he has scored **over** NDB (ie net 8).

> > > > > > > > The Rule in my draft says:

> > > > > > > > _A net double bogey is equal to the lowest score on a hole for which the player would achieve 0 (zero) Stableford points_

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Player A gets 0 strokes on par 5. If he scores 5 gross (5 net) he gets 2sp. If he scores 6(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 7(7) he gets 0 sp

> > > > > > > > Player B gets 1 stroke on a par 5. If he scores 6(5) he gets 2sp. If he scores 7(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 8(7) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > > > If he scores 9(8) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > > > You will see that net 7 scores zero stableford points. Therefore that is his net double bogey.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Newby, you said 'His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting' and that is not true. End of story, not interested to continue this any longer as you do not seem to understand where you went wrong.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Furthermore, 7 is NOT his NDB as he has **one stroke **for that hole. I wonder why this is so difficult...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Where on earth did that stroke come from. He had a gross 9. The stroke gave him a net 8. He needed a net 6 to get a point. 7 gets no points.

> > > > >

> > > > > That stroke came from your own post. You wrote that the player has one stroke for that hole. I understood it so that his par for the hole to earn 2 points is 6. Thus his gross score to be posted is 8 (net 7 = 0 points) which is 1 stroke smaller than the actual score 9, not 2 strokes as you wrote.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FOR THE CONFUSION

> > > > When I wrote

> > > > He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> > > > ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

> > > > I should have written

> > > > ..... His **effective** gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap **purposes**

> > > > In practice, only his actual gross is posted. The other calculations are done by the system. ie his effective net is reduced to 7 for handicapping

> > >

> > > What is 'effective gross score' ? And what is 'effective net' ?

> >

> > From what I gather the effective net is the net of the net score. In my opinion a useless number but again I could be missing something. I still don't see how the 'effective gross' would be reduced by 2 when the player takes a gross 9 on a par 5 when getting 1 stroke. The end gross score, used as the hole score for handicapping purposes, would be an 8 which is a reduction of 1 stroke not 2 strokes.

>

> Newby created this confusion by his last situation in post #720 (see below). Imo, his gross score should be reduced by 1 for handicap posting - he would post an 8 for handicap purposes.

> _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

 

Understood, I addressed that in post #739 but that didn't seem to clear it up from Newby's perspective.

[HatsForBats]

> @Newby said:

> There seems to be much confusion about the difference between 'posted' and 'calculated'.

> No one over here will ever post a HBH net score whether adjusted or not. The only number posted will be the true HBH gross. Adjusted gross, nets and differentials will all be calculated.

>

> If not entering HBH the stableford (NDB) adjustment will be done manually

>

>

>

 

File does not appear to be valid. Screen Capture instead?

[Newby]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > The WHS draft says

> > > > > > > > > > > > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > > > > > > > > > > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Par 5

> > > > > > > > > > > > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > > > > > > > > > > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Newby, are you still of the opinion that in this (your) example

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > **He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8). His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting.**

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > the reduction is two (2) strokes for handicap posting? That is, the score for that hole for handicap posting in your opinion is seven (7) ?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Yes. The resultant figure used in the handicap calculation (only) is net double bogey ie 7 = zero stableford points

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I am utterly confused.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This is your own example and in this example the player gets 1 stroke extra for this particular hole, that is, his net par is 6. Now, how do you get 7 as his net double bogey? After all, you said yourself that his NDB is 8.

> > > > > > > > > I said:

> > > > > > > > > As he gets 1 stroke he has scored **over** NDB (ie net 8).

> > > > > > > > > The Rule in my draft says:

> > > > > > > > > _A net double bogey is equal to the lowest score on a hole for which the player would achieve 0 (zero) Stableford points_

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Player A gets 0 strokes on par 5. If he scores 5 gross (5 net) he gets 2sp. If he scores 6(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 7(7) he gets 0 sp

> > > > > > > > > Player B gets 1 stroke on a par 5. If he scores 6(5) he gets 2sp. If he scores 7(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 8(7) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > > > > If he scores 9(8) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > > > > > You will see that net 7 scores zero stableford points. Therefore that is his net double bogey.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Newby, you said 'His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting' and that is not true. End of story, not interested to continue this any longer as you do not seem to understand where you went wrong.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Furthermore, 7 is NOT his NDB as he has **one stroke **for that hole. I wonder why this is so difficult...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Where on earth did that stroke come from. He had a gross 9. The stroke gave him a net 8. He needed a net 6 to get a point. 7 gets no points.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That stroke came from your own post. You wrote that the player has one stroke for that hole. I understood it so that his par for the hole to earn 2 points is 6. Thus his gross score to be posted is 8 (net 7 = 0 points) which is 1 stroke smaller than the actual score 9, not 2 strokes as you wrote.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FOR THE CONFUSION

> > > > > When I wrote

> > > > > He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> > > > > ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

> > > > > I should have written

> > > > > ..... His **effective** gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap **purposes**

> > > > > In practice, only his actual gross is posted. The other calculations are done by the system. ie his effective net is reduced to 7 for handicapping

> > > >

> > > > What is 'effective gross score' ? And what is 'effective net' ?

> > >

> > > From what I gather the effective net is the net of the net score. In my opinion a useless number but again I could be missing something. I still don't see how the 'effective gross' would be reduced by 2 when the player takes a gross 9 on a par 5 when getting 1 stroke. The end gross score, used as the hole score for handicapping purposes, would be an 8 which is a reduction of 1 stroke not 2 strokes.

> >

> > Newby created this confusion by his last situation in post #720 (see below). Imo, his gross score should be reduced by 1 for handicap posting - he would post an 8 for handicap purposes.

> > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> > ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

>

> Understood, I addressed that in post #739 but that didn't seem to clear it up from Newby's perspective.

See #811

 

[Newby]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Newby said:

> > There seems to be much confusion about the difference between 'posted' and 'calculated'.

> > No one over here will ever post a HBH net score whether adjusted or not. The only number posted will be the true HBH gross. Adjusted gross, nets and differentials will all be calculated.

> >

> > If not entering HBH the stableford (NDB) adjustment will be done manually

> >

> >

> >

>

> File does not appear to be valid. Screen Capture instead?

 

It was an excel SS but it doesn't seem to like it.

[Colin L]

This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but I get the impression that too much is being made of potential difficulties in the WHS in ignorance of the system in general and of what options the USGA is choosing for golfers in its handicapping jurisdiction in particular. Perhaps many thread centimetres could be saved by waiting for the relevant information? Just wondering!

[Colin L]

> @davep043 said:

As a rule, most of us post our scores while we're having a beer and telling lies about our play .......

>

 

There speaks a true and dedicated golfer.

[davep043]

> @"Colin L" said:

> This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but I get the impression that too much is being made of potential difficulties in the WHS in ignorance of the system in general and of what options the USGA is choosing for golfers in its handicapping jurisdiction in particular. Perhaps many thread centimetres could be saved by waiting for the relevant information? Just wondering!

 

Why wait to argue about the real rules when we can argue about what the rules MIGHT say right now? And by argue I really mean discuss.

[Halebopp]

> @"Colin L" said:

> This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but I get the impression that too much is being made of potential difficulties in the WHS in ignorance of the system in general and of what options the USGA is choosing for golfers in its handicapping jurisdiction in particular. Perhaps many thread centimetres could be saved by waiting for the relevant information? Just wondering!

 

Fall is here, too little golf and too much time to think about all things golf.

 

I do find it weird they haven't made all the mathematics public information yet. Certainly all of those issues should've been set in stone at least a year ago to allow time for the software companies to create the new systems.

[rogolf]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thus the gross score for the par5 in your example is reduced by 1, not 2 for handicap posting.

> > > > > > > > > > > Which one are you referring to?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 8 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 6. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored a NDB (ie net 7)_

> > > > > > > > > > > _..... No change to his gross score for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > > _He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)_

> > > > > > > > > > > _..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting_

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The last one. If you reduce gross score 9 by 2 you get 7 while you should get 8 for handicap posting, if I have understood the idea of NDB correctly.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The WHS draft says

> > > > > > > > > **Net Double Bogey**

> > > > > > > > > A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Par 5

> > > > > > > > > plus two strokes + 2 = 7

> > > > > > > > > handicap stroke + 1 = 8

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Newby, are you still of the opinion that in this (your) example

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > **He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8). His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting.**

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > the reduction is two (2) strokes for handicap posting? That is, the score for that hole for handicap posting in your opinion is seven (7) ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes. The resultant figure used in the handicap calculation (only) is net double bogey ie 7 = zero stableford points

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am utterly confused.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is your own example and in this example the player gets 1 stroke extra for this particular hole, that is, his net par is 6. Now, how do you get 7 as his net double bogey? After all, you said yourself that his NDB is 8.

> > > > > I said:

> > > > > As he gets 1 stroke he has scored **over** NDB (ie net 8).

> > > > > The Rule in my draft says:

> > > > > _A net double bogey is equal to the lowest score on a hole for which the player would achieve 0 (zero) Stableford points_

> > > > >

> > > > > Player A gets 0 strokes on par 5. If he scores 5 gross (5 net) he gets 2sp. If he scores 6(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 7(7) he gets 0 sp

> > > > > Player B gets 1 stroke on a par 5. If he scores 6(5) he gets 2sp. If he scores 7(6) he gets 1 sp. If he scores 8(7) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > If he scores 9(8) he gets 0 sp.

> > > > > You will see that net 7 scores zero stableford points. Therefore that is his net double bogey.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Newby, you said 'His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting' and that is not true. End of story, not interested to continue this any longer as you do not seem to understand where you went wrong.

> > > >

> > > > Furthermore, 7 is NOT his NDB as he has **one stroke **for that hole. I wonder why this is so difficult...

> > >

> > > Where on earth did that stroke come from. He had a gross 9. The stroke gave him a net 8. He needed a net 6 to get a point. 7 gets no points.

> >

> > That stroke came from your own post. You wrote that the player has one stroke for that hole. I understood it so that his par for the hole to earn 2 points is 6. Thus his gross score to be posted is 8 (net 7 = 0 points) which is 1 stroke smaller than the actual score 9, not 2 strokes as you wrote.

> >

>

> MY SINCERE APOLOGIES FOR THE CONFUSION

> When I wrote

> He scores 9 on the Par 5 hole that is Stroke Index 2. As he gets 1 stroke he has scored over NDB (ie net 8)

> ..... His gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap posting

> I should have written

> ..... His **effective** gross score is reduced by 2 for handicap **purposes**

> In practice, only his actual gross is posted. The other calculations are done by the system. ie his effective net is reduced to 7 for handicapping

 

Please clarify - what is this player's score that will be used for handicapping purposes on this hole? Is it 7 or is it 8?

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> There seems to be much confusion about the difference between 'posted' and 'calculated'.

> No one over here will ever post a HBH net score whether adjusted or not. The only number posted will be the true HBH gross. Adjusted gross, nets and differentials will all be calculated.

>

> If not entering HBH the stableford (NDB) adjustment will be done manually

>

>

>

 

What is HBH?

 

And I am still missing the explanation of 'effective gross score' and 'effective net'.

[Halebopp]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > There seems to be much confusion about the difference between 'posted' and 'calculated'.

> > No one over here will ever post a HBH net score whether adjusted or not. The only number posted will be the true HBH gross. Adjusted gross, nets and differentials will all be calculated.

> >

> > If not entering HBH the stableford (NDB) adjustment will be done manually

> >

> >

> >

>

> What is HBH?

>

> And I am still missing the explanation of 'effective gross score' and 'effective net'.

 

Hole-by-hole.

[Newby]

> @rogolf said:

>

> Please clarify - what is this player's score that will be used for handicapping purposes on this hole? Is it 7 or is it 8?

Sorry, my gross and nets went haywire

 

His gross score is is posted if Hole by Hole entry.

It is adjusted to NDB if adjusted gross for round is to be entered.

net double bogey = par + 2 + stroke(s) received ie 5+2+1 in this case

[rogolf]

> @Newby said:

> > @rogolf said:

> >

> > Please clarify - what is this player's score that will be used for handicapping purposes on this hole? Is it 7 or is it 8?

> Sorry, my gross and nets went haywire

>

> His gross score is is posted if Hole by Hole entry.

> It is adjusted to NDB if adjusted gross for round is to be entered.

> net double bogey = par + 2 + stroke(s) received ie 5+2+1 in this case

 

Let's forget about hole by hole and what the innards of the computer can do, other than determining this player's adjusted gross score for handicap purposes.

So, for handicapping purposes only, his score for the hole is adjusted to a gross 8? Yes or no will suffice.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Halebopp said:

> ...and I still wonder why they came up with the max-score stroke play format and decided it's a good idea to base handicaps on it. I had my assumption Americans wanted to keep their stroke play format even for handicapping as I thought that's what "they all" played but earlier on in this thread I was told otherwise.

>

> Net Stableford has worked very well so far in my opinion, no confusion over strokes and points.

 

It may depend upon what part of the country we play in, but I rarely play anything other than stroke play. We will have a couple of play days in the women's group that are match play each year. I play in one state level match play event although I could play in more if I chose to (I could play in some USGA match play events as well, but I really dislike match play so I don't). I think we play one modified Stableford play day each year. Other places in the US play more match play for sure. Very little Stableford.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @rogolf said:

> >

> > Please clarify - what is this player's score that will be used for handicapping purposes on this hole? Is it 7 or is it 8?

> Sorry, my gross and nets went haywire

>

> His gross score is is posted if Hole by Hole entry.

 

Oh my. I have no clue whatsoever of that gibberish...