New World Handicap System

[Sawgrass]

> @Augster said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > Yesterday I attended an Allied Golf Association's webinar on the WHS. Two things of note were a chart on new handicap allowances suggested for various forms of play (Fourball stroke play will be 85% instead of the current 90% recommended by the USGA -- that particular slide went by too fast to see the many other changes) and the fact that "most likely" number of putts for conceded holes will have a slightly different character (all putts 5 feet or less get one stroke irrespective of how challenging they are, 5 feet to 20 yards get 2 or 3 depending on challenge and player's skill, more than 20 yards get 3 or 4).

> >

> > I wish I had been able to capture the complete allowances slide, I haven't been able to find it online. I'm told additional printed materials will be coming out soon.

>

> Good info. It’s how it should be.

>

> I take it you weren’t able to ask if you’re allowed to putt out after the hole has been decided and see if you made it or not and kept that number of putts for score? As it is now. I never liked that because people wouldn’t try hard on a conceded 3 footer, putt it later, and miss it. Tied the hole with the concede par 4 but was able to write down a bogey 5.

 

I didn't ask and don't know. I did like the existing option to putt, I always want to know what I "really" would have scored. But the one-putt thing within 5' makes it easy, no more challenging decisions if you in fact pick up a four footer to get out of people's way.

[davep043]

> @Augster said:

 

>

> I read it wrong. The video does say “four ball stroke play”. Who the **** ever plays that? Weird.

>

 

We actually play one event every year using fourball stroke play.

 

[Deceptively Short]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > etc ...

> > >

> > Well that’s going to be easy to calculate, explain and remember.

> >

>

> How many of those formats do you ever play?

 

The first 7 regularly and at least four of the rest a few times a year - why do you ask?

[Colin L]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > Interesting card. Colin. In the US that kind of course (at least at the midrange to higher end courses) would have five sets of tees (800 yards is a big gap between blue and yellow in the 6000 yard range), places for four scores, two sets of pars (where ladies play would include at least up to the yellow tees and even the red tees would have a rating/slope for the men). I guess that hole pars would have to be specified separately for each set of tees with a 'strict' interpretation of par. It would be hard to know when a tee box change causes a par change. It could be when going from the TIPS to the next set forward or .....

> > >

> > > I am not saying that this cannot be solved, but it would need to be addressed. And I don't know how stroke index is going to work now that NDB is an important consideration. A 401 yard par 4 on a 5400 yard hole as the 18 handicap hole is MOST unusual and certainly would not happen (IMHO) if the Blue Tees were considered 'to be its own course'.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > Interesting card. Colin. In the US that kind of course (at least at the midrange to higher end courses) would have five sets of tees (800 yards is a big gap between blue and yellow in the 6000 yard range), places for four scores, two sets of pars (where ladies play would include at least up to the yellow tees and even the red tees would have a rating/slope for the men). I guess that hole pars would have to be specified separately for each set of tees with a 'strict' interpretation of par. It would be hard to know when a tee box change causes a par change. It could be when going from the TIPS to the next set forward or .....

> > >

> > > I am not saying that this cannot be solved, but it would need to be addressed. And I don't know how stroke index is going to work now that NDB is an important consideration. A 401 yard par 4 on a 5400 yard hole as the 18 handicap hole is MOST unusual and certainly would not happen (IMHO) if the Blue Tees were considered 'to be its own course'.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > SNIP

> >

> > Good typo, by the way. A course with a 5400 yard hole sounds somewhat formidable.

>

> It plays downhill and typically downwind, so not as long as you might think :-)

>

> dave

>

>

 

Some hill, some wind!!

[Roadking2003]

> @Newby said:>

> Best 1 of 4 par/bogey - 75%

> Best 2 of 4 par/bogey - 80%

> Best 3 of 4 par/bogey - 90%

> All 4 of 4 par/bogey - 100%

 

What is that format?

[Roadking2003]

OK, so 425 posts later I still have a basic question or two. I'm sure it's covered somewhere in these 425 posts but I missed it;

 

1. Does the USGA plan to allow posting of non-tournament rounds?

2. If so, what are the posting requirements? Registration? Attestation?

3. When do the USGA and GHIN plan to implement WHS?

[Augster]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> OK, so 425 posts later I still have a basic question or two. I'm sure it's covered somewhere in these 425 posts but I missed it;

>

> 1. Does the USGA plan to allow posting of non-tournament rounds?

> 2. If so, what are the posting requirements? Registration? Attestation?

> 3. When do the USGA and GHIN plan to implement WHS?

 

1. Yes. All rounds are postable if you play with one other person. No solo rounds. No more T scores.

 

2. Same as now. No changes. Don’t post solo rounds.

 

3. USA will be 1/1/20.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > Interesting card. Colin. In the US that kind of course (at least at the midrange to higher end courses) would have five sets of tees (800 yards is a big gap between blue and yellow in the 6000 yard range), places for four scores, two sets of pars (where ladies play would include at least up to the yellow tees and even the red tees would have a rating/slope for the men). I guess that hole pars would have to be specified separately for each set of tees with a 'strict' interpretation of par. It would be hard to know when a tee box change causes a par change. It could be when going from the TIPS to the next set forward or .....

> > > >

> > > > I am not saying that this cannot be solved, but it would need to be addressed. And I don't know how stroke index is going to work now that NDB is an important consideration. A 401 yard par 4 on a 5400 yard hole as the 18 handicap hole is MOST unusual and certainly would not happen (IMHO) if the Blue Tees were considered 'to be its own course'.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > Interesting card. Colin. In the US that kind of course (at least at the midrange to higher end courses) would have five sets of tees (800 yards is a big gap between blue and yellow in the 6000 yard range), places for four scores, two sets of pars (where ladies play would include at least up to the yellow tees and even the red tees would have a rating/slope for the men). I guess that hole pars would have to be specified separately for each set of tees with a 'strict' interpretation of par. It would be hard to know when a tee box change causes a par change. It could be when going from the TIPS to the next set forward or .....

> > > >

> > > > I am not saying that this cannot be solved, but it would need to be addressed. And I don't know how stroke index is going to work now that NDB is an important consideration. A 401 yard par 4 on a 5400 yard hole as the 18 handicap hole is MOST unusual and certainly would not happen (IMHO) if the Blue Tees were considered 'to be its own course'.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > SNIP

> > >

> > > Good typo, by the way. A course with a 5400 yard hole sounds somewhat formidable.

> >

> > It plays downhill and typically downwind, so not as long as you might think :-)

> >

> > dave

> >

> >

>

> Some hill, some wind!!

 

Plus U.S. golfers are all big hitters. Just ask us. :-)

 

dave

[Colin L]

> @Augster said:

> As has been stated in this thread, when you move the tees up, but start changing par, it makes it hard for shorter hitters to hit GIRs. Yes, each set of tees should be looked at as it’s own course. I get that. And it should. But once you have players playing different tees, with changing pars it’s hard to have a match. Stableford is Stableford and works great.

 

We really are well apart on these matters. The differences are various and many, it seems..

 

Shorter hitters are mostly likely to find it hard to hit greens in regulation since the par is based on the distances scratch players can hit a ball. A player getting a stroke a hole, for example, should generally be thinking of "regulation" being 3 shots to a par 4 and 4 shots to a par 5. I just don't know what is gained by thinking that you have holed out for a net par 5 if the hole is in reality a Par 4. I can no longer reach the greens of two of the par 3s on my course but that's ok as on a handicap of 17, my target on all but one hole is a bogey - 2 shots to the par 3 green and 2 putts.

 

I don't see par having any significance at all in match play.

 

Adjusting handicaps for mixed tee stroke play doesn't involve Par. In Stableford, the calculation does involve par but mixed tee stable ford is possible and equitable.

 

Stroke indexes here tend to be arranged for match play and not primarily on the relative difficulty of holes.

 

It's been an interesting conversation (for me at least!) I suppose what really matters is that when we go out for a game wherever we are, it all comes down to that infuriating, wonderful struggle to knock a ball from tee to hole in as few strokes as possible.

 

[Augster]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Augster said:

>

> >

> > I read it wrong. The video does say “four ball stroke play”. Who the **** ever plays that? Weird.

> >

>

> We actually play one event every year using fourball stroke play.

>

 

What is four-ball stroke play? Let me know if this is correct. 2 vs. 2. You have a partner so you can give advice. Lowest putted out score on the side is the score for the team. Best total team score wins.

 

Does the player who’s score doesn’t count have to putt out? If he doesn’t, is he DQ for the hole or DQ for the day and walks in?

 

I’ve never played that.

 

Also, what is 1/4 par/bogey? We’ve played 2/4 ball and 3/4 ball. I don’t know what the par/bogey means. And we always played full cap. Looks like there will be an adjustment?

 

[Newby]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

>

> Plus U.S. golfers are all big hitters. Just ask us. :-)

 

> dave

 

We don't have to ask.

 

[Augster]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @Augster said:

> > As has been stated in this thread, when you move the tees up, but start changing par, it makes it hard for shorter hitters to hit GIRs. Yes, each set of tees should be looked at as it’s own course. I get that. And it should. But once you have players playing different tees, with changing pars it’s hard to have a match. Stableford is Stableford and works great.

>

> We really are well apart on these matters. The differences are fascinating.

>

> Shorter hitters are mostly likely to find it hard to hit greens in regulation since the par is based on the distances scratch players can hit a ball. A player getting a stroke a hole, for example, should generally be thinking of "regulation" being 3 shots to a par 4 and 4 shots to a par 5. I just don't know what is gained by thinking that you have holed out for a net par 5 if the hole is in reality a Par 4. I can no longer reach the greens of two of the par 3s on my course but that's ok as on a handicap of 17, my target on all but one hole is a bogey.

>

> I don't see par having any significance at all in match play.

>

> Adjusting handicaps for mixed tee stroke play doesn't involve Par. In Stableford, the calculation does involve par but mixed tee stable ford is possible and equitable.

>

> It's been an interesting conversation (for me at least!) I suppose what really matters is that when we go out for a game wherever we are, it all comes down to that infuriating, wonderful struggle to knock a ball from tee to hole in as few strokes as possible.

>

 

Mixed tee MATCH play.

 

If I’m playing the up tees and I have a 374 yard par 5 that I make 4 or 3 on most days, and my opponent plays the same hole as a 480 yard par 5, that he can’t reach in 2, without making it relative to par, how is it equitable. Over time my opponent has almost no chance to beat me. He’s going to have to hit 3 good shots AND make a putt to make a birdie 4. I’m going to make a “birdie” 4 most of the time.

 

I would think the par would have to change on that hole and your score in relation to that par is the determiner in the match for that hole. If 374 is a par 4, and I make 4, and my opponent playing a 480 yard par 5 makes 5, we should push the hole. We both made par. BUT, if par isn’t factored in, I win the hole because of my 100-yard head start.

 

That doesn’t seem right.

[Sawgrass]

> @Augster said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @Augster said:

> >

> > >

> > > I read it wrong. The video does say “four ball stroke play”. Who the **** ever plays that? Weird.

> > >

> >

> > We actually play one event every year using fourball stroke play.

> >

>

> What is four-ball stroke play? Let me know if this is correct. 2 vs. 2. You have a partner so you can give advice. Lowest putted out score on the side is the score for the team. Best total team score wins.

>

> Does the player who’s score doesn’t count have to putt out? If he doesn’t, is he DQ for the hole or DQ for the day and walks in?

>

> I’ve never played that.

>

> Also, what is 1/4 par/bogey? We’ve played 2/4 ball and 3/4 ball. I don’t know what the par/bogey means. And we always played full cap. Looks like there will be an adjustment?

>

 

The explanations of four ball and par/bogey can be found in rule 21.3 and 23. Stroke play four ball has nothing to do with 2 vs. 2, it's against an entire field. No concessions, it's stroke play.

 

I'm surprised you haven't played four ball stroke. Our club uses it for both member/member and member/guest. It works!

[Colin L]

Four Ball is defined in the Rules:

 

_A form of play where sides of two partners compete, with each player playing his or her own ball. A side’s score for a hole is the lower score of the two partners on that hole.

Four-Ball may be played as a match-play competition between one side of two partners and another side of two partners or a stroke-play competition among multiple sides of two partners_

 

The partner whose score is not used at a hole may have putted out or picked up. It doesn't matter here where we do not return individual "scores" in fourball for handicapping purposes.

 

Par/Bogey is also defined:

 

_A form of stroke play that uses scoring as in match play where:

A player or side wins or loses a hole by completing the hole in fewer strokes or more strokes (including strokes made and any penalty strokes) than a fixed target score for that hole set by the Committee, and

The competition is won by the player or side with the highest total of holes won versus holes lost (that is, adding up the holes won and subtracting the holes lost)._

 

In effect, Par/Bogey are matches with the course as your opponent.

 

[Newby]

> @"Colin L" said:

> The partner whose score is not used at a hole may have putted out or picked up. It doesn't matter here where we do not return individual "scores" in fourball for handicapping purposes.

>

We may well be in a couple of years time :-(

 

 

[Sawgrass]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > Individual stroke play, stableford, par/bogey, max score - 95%

> >

> > Four-ball stroke, stableford, - 85%

> > Four-ball par/bogey - 90%

> >

> > Individual match - 100%

> >

> > Four-ball match - 95%

> > Foursomes - 50% combined team

> > Greensomes, Pinehurst/Chapman - 60% low + 40% high

> >

> > Best 1 of 4 stroke - 75%

> > Best 2 of 4 stroke - 85%

> > Best 3 of 4 stroke - 100%

> > All 4 of 4 stroke - 100%

> >

> > 4 man scramble - 25%/20%/15%/10% low to high

> > 2 man scramble - 35% low / 15% high

> > Total score of 2 match - 100%

> >

> > Best 1 of 4 par/bogey - 75%

> > Best 2 of 4 par/bogey - 80%

> > Best 3 of 4 par/bogey - 90%

> > All 4 of 4 par/bogey - 100%

> >

> Well that’s going to be easy to calculate, explain and remember.

>

 

I just received the USGA-related deck from my webinar, and allowances are different than the above. Example: Individual match play: 95%. I’m surprised by that.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Augster said:

>

> >

> > I read it wrong. The video does say “four ball stroke play”. Who the **** ever plays that? Weird.

> >

>

> We actually play one event every year using fourball stroke play.

>

 

We play that for most of the club tournaments here (charity and fund raising). Sometimes net only. Sometimes prizes are awarded for low gross as well.

[Colin L]

> @Augster said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > As has been stated in this thread, when you move the tees up, but start changing par, it makes it hard for shorter hitters to hit GIRs. Yes, each set of tees should be looked at as it’s own course. I get that. And it should. But once you have players playing different tees, with changing pars it’s hard to have a match. Stableford is Stableford and works great.

> >

> > We really are well apart on these matters. The differences are fascinating.

> >

> > Shorter hitters are mostly likely to find it hard to hit greens in regulation since the par is based on the distances scratch players can hit a ball. A player getting a stroke a hole, for example, should generally be thinking of "regulation" being 3 shots to a par 4 and 4 shots to a par 5. I just don't know what is gained by thinking that you have holed out for a net par 5 if the hole is in reality a Par 4. I can no longer reach the greens of two of the par 3s on my course but that's ok as on a handicap of 17, my target on all but one hole is a bogey.

> >

> > I don't see par having any significance at all in match play.

> >

> > Adjusting handicaps for mixed tee stroke play doesn't involve Par. In Stableford, the calculation does involve par but mixed tee stable ford is possible and equitable.

> >

> > It's been an interesting conversation (for me at least!) I suppose what really matters is that when we go out for a game wherever we are, it all comes down to that infuriating, wonderful struggle to knock a ball from tee to hole in as few strokes as possible.

> >

>

> Mixed tee MATCH play.

>

> If I’m playing the up tees and I have a 374 yard par 5 that I make 4 or 3 on most days, and my opponent plays the same hole as a 480 yard par 5, that he can’t reach in 2, without making it relative to par, how is it equitable. Over time my opponent has almost no chance to beat me. He’s going to have to hit 3 good shots AND make a putt to make a birdie 4. I’m going to make a “birdie” 4 most of the time.

>

> I would think the par would have to change on that hole and your score in relation to that par is the determiner in the match for that hole. If 374 is a par 4, and I make 4, and my opponent playing a 480 yard par 5 makes 5, we should push the hole. We both made par. BUT, if par isn’t factored in, I win the hole because of my 100-yard head start.

>

> That doesn’t seem right.

 

What has the par of individual holes to do with match play? If you score a net 4 on a hole and your opponent playing from other tees scores net 5, you win the hole because you holed out in fewer strokes - nothing to do with par. You could be hunched over a crucial putt for an 8 to win a hole but if that's 4 over par it doesn't matter - it's match play pure and simple and winning the hole is all that matters.

 

Adjusting handicaps for match play from mixed tees does bring par into the picture, but only the total par for each course. As you are going to be calculating course handicaps using CR-Par, the person playing from the tees with the higher par will get an allowance equal to the difference between the par of his course and the par of his opponent's. That brings us back to allotting the same par to all the tees from longest to shortest course. Where that is the case, then the person playing the longer course will get no additional strokes which may be inequitable.

[Newby]

> @Sawgrass said:

 

>

> I just received the USGA-related deck from my webinar, and allowances are different than the above. Example: Individual match play: 95%. I’m surprised by that.

 

Is that because the 0.96 was taken out of the Index calculation?

[antip]

> @Augster said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > The USGA site said 4-ball match play was going to play off 85%.

> >

> > Interesting to know. They are in fact recommendations according to CONGU. Presumably each authority makes its own choices.

>

> I read it wrong. The video does say “four ball stroke play”. Who the **** ever plays that? Weird.

>

>

That would be Australia. Almost all four ball play here is four ball stroke or four ball stableford. But for many years now that has been played at full handicap and I've not seen anything suggesting it is going to change.

[Sawgrass]

> @Newby said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

>

> >

> > I just received the USGA-related deck from my webinar, and allowances are different than the above. Example: Individual match play: 95%. I’m surprised by that.

>

> Is that because the 0.96 was taken out of the Index calculation?

 

Perhaps, though I presumed the elimination of the “bonus for excellence” was a true elimination. Now it seems it was pretty much just moved to a different part of the competition calculation.

[rogolf]

> @Newby said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

>

> >

> > I just received the USGA-related deck from my webinar, and allowances are different than the above. Example: Individual match play: 95%. I’m surprised by that.

>

> Is that because the 0.96 was taken out of the Index calculation?

 

If that is the reason, it would have been easier to leave it in and use 100% for single stroke play and match play.

[Augster]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Augster said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @Augster said:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > I read it wrong. The video does say “four ball stroke play”. Who the **** ever plays that? Weird.

> > > >

> > >

> > > We actually play one event every year using fourball stroke play.

> > >

> >

> > What is four-ball stroke play? Let me know if this is correct. 2 vs. 2. You have a partner so you can give advice. Lowest putted out score on the side is the score for the team. Best total team score wins.

> >

> > Does the player who’s score doesn’t count have to putt out? If he doesn’t, is he DQ for the hole or DQ for the day and walks in?

> >

> > I’ve never played that.

> >

> > Also, what is 1/4 par/bogey? We’ve played 2/4 ball and 3/4 ball. I don’t know what the par/bogey means. And we always played full cap. Looks like there will be an adjustment?

> >

>

> The explanations of four ball and par/bogey can be found in rule 21.3 and 23. Stroke play four ball has nothing to do with 2 vs. 2, it's against an entire field. No concessions, it's stroke play.

>

> I'm surprised you haven't played four ball stroke. Our club uses it for both member/member and member/guest. It works!

 

Ah. I got it. Just a 2 man best ball against a field. Yes. I play that a few times per year. Got it. The way the tourneys are set up, the other guy doesn’t finish out.

 

The term stroke play threw me for a few.

 

I’ve never played, or had the chance to play par/bogey. Never heard of it. I have some reading to do. What will they think of next? :)

 

[Augster]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @Augster said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @Augster said:

> > > > As has been stated in this thread, when you move the tees up, but start changing par, it makes it hard for shorter hitters to hit GIRs. Yes, each set of tees should be looked at as it’s own course. I get that. And it should. But once you have players playing different tees, with changing pars it’s hard to have a match. Stableford is Stableford and works great.

> > >

> > > We really are well apart on these matters. The differences are fascinating.

> > >

> > > Shorter hitters are mostly likely to find it hard to hit greens in regulation since the par is based on the distances scratch players can hit a ball. A player getting a stroke a hole, for example, should generally be thinking of "regulation" being 3 shots to a par 4 and 4 shots to a par 5. I just don't know what is gained by thinking that you have holed out for a net par 5 if the hole is in reality a Par 4. I can no longer reach the greens of two of the par 3s on my course but that's ok as on a handicap of 17, my target on all but one hole is a bogey.

> > >

> > > I don't see par having any significance at all in match play.

> > >

> > > Adjusting handicaps for mixed tee stroke play doesn't involve Par. In Stableford, the calculation does involve par but mixed tee stable ford is possible and equitable.

> > >

> > > It's been an interesting conversation (for me at least!) I suppose what really matters is that when we go out for a game wherever we are, it all comes down to that infuriating, wonderful struggle to knock a ball from tee to hole in as few strokes as possible.

> > >

> >

> > Mixed tee MATCH play.

> >

> > If I’m playing the up tees and I have a 374 yard par 5 that I make 4 or 3 on most days, and my opponent plays the same hole as a 480 yard par 5, that he can’t reach in 2, without making it relative to par, how is it equitable. Over time my opponent has almost no chance to beat me. He’s going to have to hit 3 good shots AND make a putt to make a birdie 4. I’m going to make a “birdie” 4 most of the time.

> >

> > I would think the par would have to change on that hole and your score in relation to that par is the determiner in the match for that hole. If 374 is a par 4, and I make 4, and my opponent playing a 480 yard par 5 makes 5, we should push the hole. We both made par. BUT, if par isn’t factored in, I win the hole because of my 100-yard head start.

> >

> > That doesn’t seem right.

>

> What has the par of individual holes to do with match play? If you score a net 4 on a hole and your opponent playing from other tees scores net 5, you win the hole because you holed out in fewer strokes - nothing to do with par. You could be hunched over a crucial putt for an 8 to win a hole but if that's 4 over par it doesn't matter - it's match play pure and simple and winning the hole is all that matters.

>

> Adjusting handicaps for match play from mixed tees does bring par into the picture, but only the total par for each course. As you are going to be calculating course handicaps using CR-Par, the person playing from the tees with the higher par will get an allowance equal to the difference between the par of his course and the par of his opponent's. That brings us back to allotting the same par to all the tees from longest to shortest course. Where that is the case, then the person playing the higher par course will get no additional strokes which may be inequitable.

 

Okay. I think I get it. The CR-par rating and then Par-par should take care of the difference for multi-tee match play. Unless, like my course, the par is wrong. Both the white, and the gold, are par 71. So the par-par add in doesn’t take that hole into consideration for the match. In other words, I’m just going to win that hole from the golds every time I play someone playing white. Unless I dump my wedge second shot into the bunker or 3-putt.

[rogolf]

> @Augster said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @Augster said:

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I read it wrong. The video does say “four ball stroke play”. Who the **** ever plays that? Weird.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > We actually play one event every year using fourball stroke play.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What is four-ball stroke play? Let me know if this is correct. 2 vs. 2. You have a partner so you can give advice. Lowest putted out score on the side is the score for the team. Best total team score wins.

> > >

> > > Does the player who’s score doesn’t count have to putt out? If he doesn’t, is he DQ for the hole or DQ for the day and walks in?

> > >

> > > I’ve never played that.

> > >

> > > Also, what is 1/4 par/bogey? We’ve played 2/4 ball and 3/4 ball. I don’t know what the par/bogey means. And we always played full cap. Looks like there will be an adjustment?

> > >

> >

> > The explanations of four ball and par/bogey can be found in rule 21.3 and 23. Stroke play four ball has nothing to do with 2 vs. 2, it's against an entire field. No concessions, it's stroke play.

> >

> > I'm surprised you haven't played four ball stroke. Our club uses it for both member/member and member/guest. It works!

>

> Ah. I got it. Just a 2 man best ball against a field. Yes. I play that a few times per year. Got it. The way the tourneys are set up, the other guy doesn’t finish out.

>

> The term stroke play threw me for a few.

>

> I’ve never played, or had the chance to play par/bogey. Never heard of it. I have some reading to do. **What will they think of next?** :)

>

 

They have been recognized forms of play for at least a hundred years or so!

[rogolf]

> @Augster said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > As has been stated in this thread, when you move the tees up, but start changing par, it makes it hard for shorter hitters to hit GIRs. Yes, each set of tees should be looked at as it’s own course. I get that. And it should. But once you have players playing different tees, with changing pars it’s hard to have a match. Stableford is Stableford and works great.

> > > >

> > > > We really are well apart on these matters. The differences are fascinating.

> > > >

> > > > Shorter hitters are mostly likely to find it hard to hit greens in regulation since the par is based on the distances scratch players can hit a ball. A player getting a stroke a hole, for example, should generally be thinking of "regulation" being 3 shots to a par 4 and 4 shots to a par 5. I just don't know what is gained by thinking that you have holed out for a net par 5 if the hole is in reality a Par 4. I can no longer reach the greens of two of the par 3s on my course but that's ok as on a handicap of 17, my target on all but one hole is a bogey.

> > > >

> > > > I don't see par having any significance at all in match play.

> > > >

> > > > Adjusting handicaps for mixed tee stroke play doesn't involve Par. In Stableford, the calculation does involve par but mixed tee stable ford is possible and equitable.

> > > >

> > > > It's been an interesting conversation (for me at least!) I suppose what really matters is that when we go out for a game wherever we are, it all comes down to that infuriating, wonderful struggle to knock a ball from tee to hole in as few strokes as possible.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Mixed tee MATCH play.

> > >

> > > If I’m playing the up tees and I have a 374 yard par 5 that I make 4 or 3 on most days, and my opponent plays the same hole as a 480 yard par 5, that he can’t reach in 2, without making it relative to par, how is it equitable. Over time my opponent has almost no chance to beat me. He’s going to have to hit 3 good shots AND make a putt to make a birdie 4. I’m going to make a “birdie” 4 most of the time.

> > >

> > > I would think the par would have to change on that hole and your score in relation to that par is the determiner in the match for that hole. If 374 is a par 4, and I make 4, and my opponent playing a 480 yard par 5 makes 5, we should push the hole. We both made par. BUT, if par isn’t factored in, I win the hole because of my 100-yard head start.

> > >

> > > That doesn’t seem right.

> >

> > What has the par of individual holes to do with match play? If you score a net 4 on a hole and your opponent playing from other tees scores net 5, you win the hole because you holed out in fewer strokes - nothing to do with par. You could be hunched over a crucial putt for an 8 to win a hole but if that's 4 over par it doesn't matter - it's match play pure and simple and winning the hole is all that matters.

> >

> > Adjusting handicaps for match play from mixed tees does bring par into the picture, but only the total par for each course. As you are going to be calculating course handicaps using CR-Par, the person playing from the tees with the higher par will get an allowance equal to the difference between the par of his course and the par of his opponent's. That brings us back to allotting the same par to all the tees from longest to shortest course. Where that is the case, then the person playing the higher par course will get no additional strokes which may be inequitable.

>

> Okay. I think I get it. The CR-par rating and then Par-par should take care of the difference for multi-tee match play. Unless, like my course, the par is wrong. Both the white, and the gold, are par 71. So the par-par add in doesn’t take that hole into consideration for the match. In other words, I’m just going to win that hole from the golds every time I play someone playing white. Unless I dump my wedge second shot into the bunker or 3-putt.

 

Another easy solution is for the Committee to dictate which tees are to be used for all players in a match play event. As others have said, par in match play is irrelevant, just taking fewer strokes than your opponent usually wins the hole.

[antip]

> @Augster said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @Augster said:

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I read it wrong. The video does say “four ball stroke play”. Who the **** ever plays that? Weird.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > We actually play one event every year using fourball stroke play.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What is four-ball stroke play? Let me know if this is correct. 2 vs. 2. You have a partner so you can give advice. Lowest putted out score on the side is the score for the team. Best total team score wins.

> > >

> > > Does the player who’s score doesn’t count have to putt out? If he doesn’t, is he DQ for the hole or DQ for the day and walks in?

> > >

> > > I’ve never played that.

> > >

> > > Also, what is 1/4 par/bogey? We’ve played 2/4 ball and 3/4 ball. I don’t know what the par/bogey means. And we always played full cap. Looks like there will be an adjustment?

> > >

> >

> > The explanations of four ball and par/bogey can be found in rule 21.3 and 23. Stroke play four ball has nothing to do with 2 vs. 2, it's against an entire field. No concessions, it's stroke play.

> >

> > I'm surprised you haven't played four ball stroke. Our club uses it for both member/member and member/guest. It works!

>

> Ah. I got it. Just a 2 man best ball against a field. Yes. I play that a few times per year. Got it. The way the tourneys are set up, the other guy doesn’t finish out.

>

> The term stroke play threw me for a few.

>

> I’ve never played, or had the chance to play par/bogey. Never heard of it. I have some reading to do. What will they think of next? :)

>

 

Par events are as simple as it gets. Net par (eg bogey with a h'cap stroke or par with no stroke) gets you a square, marked as 0, net birdie or better gets you a +, any net score above par means a -. At the end you add 'em up. So this format doesn't pay better for a net eagle or better or penalise any more for a net double bogey or worse. It is not a popular format here, most clubs would only do 2 or 3 a year. I've never seen a 'Bogey' event in this country, ever.

[antip]

> @rogolf said:

> > @Augster said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > > As has been stated in this thread, when you move the tees up, but start changing par, it makes it hard for shorter hitters to hit GIRs. Yes, each set of tees should be looked at as it’s own course. I get that. And it should. But once you have players playing different tees, with changing pars it’s hard to have a match. Stableford is Stableford and works great.

> > > > >

> > > > > We really are well apart on these matters. The differences are fascinating.

> > > > >

> > > > > Shorter hitters are mostly likely to find it hard to hit greens in regulation since the par is based on the distances scratch players can hit a ball. A player getting a stroke a hole, for example, should generally be thinking of "regulation" being 3 shots to a par 4 and 4 shots to a par 5. I just don't know what is gained by thinking that you have holed out for a net par 5 if the hole is in reality a Par 4. I can no longer reach the greens of two of the par 3s on my course but that's ok as on a handicap of 17, my target on all but one hole is a bogey.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't see par having any significance at all in match play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Adjusting handicaps for mixed tee stroke play doesn't involve Par. In Stableford, the calculation does involve par but mixed tee stable ford is possible and equitable.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's been an interesting conversation (for me at least!) I suppose what really matters is that when we go out for a game wherever we are, it all comes down to that infuriating, wonderful struggle to knock a ball from tee to hole in as few strokes as possible.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mixed tee MATCH play.

> > > >

> > > > If I’m playing the up tees and I have a 374 yard par 5 that I make 4 or 3 on most days, and my opponent plays the same hole as a 480 yard par 5, that he can’t reach in 2, without making it relative to par, how is it equitable. Over time my opponent has almost no chance to beat me. He’s going to have to hit 3 good shots AND make a putt to make a birdie 4. I’m going to make a “birdie” 4 most of the time.

> > > >

> > > > I would think the par would have to change on that hole and your score in relation to that par is the determiner in the match for that hole. If 374 is a par 4, and I make 4, and my opponent playing a 480 yard par 5 makes 5, we should push the hole. We both made par. BUT, if par isn’t factored in, I win the hole because of my 100-yard head start.

> > > >

> > > > That doesn’t seem right.

> > >

> > > What has the par of individual holes to do with match play? If you score a net 4 on a hole and your opponent playing from other tees scores net 5, you win the hole because you holed out in fewer strokes - nothing to do with par. You could be hunched over a crucial putt for an 8 to win a hole but if that's 4 over par it doesn't matter - it's match play pure and simple and winning the hole is all that matters.

> > >

> > > Adjusting handicaps for match play from mixed tees does bring par into the picture, but only the total par for each course. As you are going to be calculating course handicaps using CR-Par, the person playing from the tees with the higher par will get an allowance equal to the difference between the par of his course and the par of his opponent's. That brings us back to allotting the same par to all the tees from longest to shortest course. Where that is the case, then the person playing the higher par course will get no additional strokes which may be inequitable.

> >

> > Okay. I think I get it. The CR-par rating and then Par-par should take care of the difference for multi-tee match play. Unless, like my course, the par is wrong. Both the white, and the gold, are par 71. So the par-par add in doesn’t take that hole into consideration for the match. In other words, I’m just going to win that hole from the golds every time I play someone playing white. Unless I dump my wedge second shot into the bunker or 3-putt.

>

> Another easy solution is for the Committee to dictate which tees are to be used for all players in a match play event. As others have said, par in match play is irrelevant, just taking fewer strokes than your opponent usually wins the hole.

 

I've never played an event in which people of the same gender play off different tees (I've only been on the course since '67). Such events don't exist here. It remains to be seen if 2020 changes that.

[Newby]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> >

> > >

> > > I just received the USGA-related deck from my webinar, and allowances are different than the above. Example: Individual match play: 95%. I’m surprised by that.

> >

> > Is that because the 0.96 was taken out of the Index calculation?

>

> Perhaps, though I presumed the elimination of the “bonus for excellence” was a true elimination. Now it seems it was pretty much just moved to a different part of the competition calculation.

 

I wonder if it only applies to stroke play because the stats have always said lower cappers win 55% of matches.

[Colin L]

> @antip said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > > > As has been stated in this thread, when you move the tees up, but start changing par, it makes it hard for shorter hitters to hit GIRs. Yes, each set of tees should be looked at as it’s own course. I get that. And it should. But once you have players playing different tees, with changing pars it’s hard to have a match. Stableford is Stableford and works great.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We really are well apart on these matters. The differences are fascinating.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Shorter hitters are mostly likely to find it hard to hit greens in regulation since the par is based on the distances scratch players can hit a ball. A player getting a stroke a hole, for example, should generally be thinking of "regulation" being 3 shots to a par 4 and 4 shots to a par 5. I just don't know what is gained by thinking that you have holed out for a net par 5 if the hole is in reality a Par 4. I can no longer reach the greens of two of the par 3s on my course but that's ok as on a handicap of 17, my target on all but one hole is a bogey.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't see par having any significance at all in match play.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Adjusting handicaps for mixed tee stroke play doesn't involve Par. In Stableford, the calculation does involve par but mixed tee stable ford is possible and equitable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's been an interesting conversation (for me at least!) I suppose what really matters is that when we go out for a game wherever we are, it all comes down to that infuriating, wonderful struggle to knock a ball from tee to hole in as few strokes as possible.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mixed tee MATCH play.

> > > > >

> > > > > If I’m playing the up tees and I have a 374 yard par 5 that I make 4 or 3 on most days, and my opponent plays the same hole as a 480 yard par 5, that he can’t reach in 2, without making it relative to par, how is it equitable. Over time my opponent has almost no chance to beat me. He’s going to have to hit 3 good shots AND make a putt to make a birdie 4. I’m going to make a “birdie” 4 most of the time.

> > > > >

> > > > > I would think the par would have to change on that hole and your score in relation to that par is the determiner in the match for that hole. If 374 is a par 4, and I make 4, and my opponent playing a 480 yard par 5 makes 5, we should push the hole. We both made par. BUT, if par isn’t factored in, I win the hole because of my 100-yard head start.

> > > > >

> > > > > That doesn’t seem right.

> > > >

> > > > What has the par of individual holes to do with match play? If you score a net 4 on a hole and your opponent playing from other tees scores net 5, you win the hole because you holed out in fewer strokes - nothing to do with par. You could be hunched over a crucial putt for an 8 to win a hole but if that's 4 over par it doesn't matter - it's match play pure and simple and winning the hole is all that matters.

> > > >

> > > > Adjusting handicaps for match play from mixed tees does bring par into the picture, but only the total par for each course. As you are going to be calculating course handicaps using CR-Par, the person playing from the tees with the higher par will get an allowance equal to the difference between the par of his course and the par of his opponent's. That brings us back to allotting the same par to all the tees from longest to shortest course. Where that is the case, then the person playing the higher par course will get no additional strokes which may be inequitable.

> > >

> > > Okay. I think I get it. The CR-par rating and then Par-par should take care of the difference for multi-tee match play. Unless, like my course, the par is wrong. Both the white, and the gold, are par 71. So the par-par add in doesn’t take that hole into consideration for the match. In other words, I’m just going to win that hole from the golds every time I play someone playing white. Unless I dump my wedge second shot into the bunker or 3-putt.

> >

> > Another easy solution is for the Committee to dictate which tees are to be used for all players in a match play event. As others have said, par in match play is irrelevant, just taking fewer strokes than your opponent usually wins the hole.

>

> I've never played an event in which people of the same gender play off different tees (I've only been on the course since '67). Such events don't exist here. It remains to be seen if 2020 changes that.

 

It's something I've been trying to encourage at my club firstly in the context of our Senior men's stablefords in order to encourage members to keep joining in when they are finding the longer course a bit too much for them. In particular we have one hole with a longish carry from the tee over a gully which some cannot manage any more. By playing from the forward tee, they can continue to play in our competitions without starting a round knowing they are already two points down. For those who cannot manage 18 holes, we have started to include a 9 hole option on competition days which also has the social gain that by going out after the 18 hole groups, they can join in the social gathering after their game. It was new last season and hasn't taken off yet, but I'm hoping it will pick up next year. Our ladies do the same - successfully - and in fact led the way in this matter.