What tees are appropriate? Do you want to go as low as possible, or look for a greater challenge?

[Mudguard]

15 hours ago, TonyDAnnunzio said:

I will play whatever tees it just depends on the course and how open it is off the tee.  I hate playing courses that if you miss a fairway your ball is gone.  For example, we played a course on Friday that was only 6400 yards and was rather tight.  When I say tight, I mean narrow fairways, approximately 5 yards of rough then thick woods with 2 feet deep of leaves.  If you missed the fairway, you were hitting three off the tee.  I felt claustrophobic standing on every tee box and tried to "steer" the tee shots which only made it worse...

My old course was like this. Miss a fairway and it was a reload. It was just tiresome not being straight enough. I think I was hitting driver on three holes by the end. What's the point of working all week to hit irons off tees??

Off the winter tee there is a par five our group would tee off with four and five irons.

 

Yet you'd have the typical older slow swinging fifteen handicappers who hit it 200m and 20 feet off the ground shooting in the seventies for the first time in their lives.

[Golferpaul]

On 12/18/2022 at 7:23 AM, bcjim said:

I don't like the 5i x 36 thing. Golfers over 5hc can't hit a 5i with any consistency. I'm a 10, my dispersion is huge and my "average " 5i probably goes an embarrassing distance. 

Good point.  For most of us, we should probable average our best 50% for any measure.   I don't want to play tees that assume I chili dip a few iron shots.

[MountainKing]

Golf is judged by par - if you can't shoot par from a set of tees, you're being challanged. 

[chisag]

12 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Golf is judged by par - if you can't shoot par from a set of tees, you're being challanged. 

 

 

... Haha most golf is judged by bogies and doubles. 😉 A lady that works as a starter and a pretty decent golfer took lessons and her instructor told her everyone has the ability to shoot par if they play the right tees. Considering 1% of all golfers can shoot par playing by the rules aside, his advice was teeing up in the fairway?!? She reaches every par 5 in two easily, can drive a few par 4's and plays the par 3's from the tee box. I just don't understand how an instructor could completely take the challenge out of a difficult game and make par as easy as using bumper guards while bowling competitively. 

[Golferpaul]

What tees would we play if we matched the pros clubs?  This is not scientific, but I estimate the average tour pro has a 7-iron to par threes, a 9-iron to par fours, and a 3-iron to par fives. 

 

This assumes these average pro yardages: Driver 300, 3-iron 250, 7-iron 185, 9-iron 155.

 

Using ANGC, for me to use the same clubs as the pros I would need to play from tees that are 5830 yards which is 200 - 300 yards less than I usually play.

[MountainKing]

25 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Haha most golf is judged by bogies and doubles. 😉 A lady that works as a starter and a pretty decent golfer took lessons and her instructor told her everyone has the ability to shoot par if they play the right tees. Considering 1% of all golfers can shoot par playing by the rules aside, his advice was teeing up in the fairway?!? She reaches every par 5 in two easily, can drive a few par 4's and plays the par 3's from the tee box. I just don't understand how an instructor could completely take the challenge out of a difficult game and make par as easy as using bumper guards while bowling competitively. 

 

Obviously I can expand more on my post, but my post is more geared toward those guys who hit it 200 yards off the tee and shoot 90's or more and insist on playing the back tees, or any tees way to far bak for the "challange".  At the end of the day a majority of the golfers out there should be either on the forward tees or one back. 

[vandyfan]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

What tees would we play if we matched the pros clubs?  This is not scientific, but I estimate the average tour pro has a 7-iron to par threes, a 9-iron to par fours, and a 3-iron to par fives. 

 

This assumes these average pro yardages: Driver 300, 3-iron 250, 7-iron 185, 9-iron 155.

 

Using ANGC, for me to use the same clubs as the pros I would need to play from tees that are 5830 yards which is 200 - 300 yards less than I usually play.

 

I tried to do this using KFT data and looking at the average length of their golf courses, which is about 7,133 yds which broke down into:

 

Avg Par 3: 191 yds

Avg Par 4: 419 yds

Avg Par 5: 556 yds

 

PAR 3s: 191 is a pretty stout par 3, I would assume that is a mid iron for most KFT players somewhere in the 6i range. For me, my 6i carries about 170 so to have the same distance challenge as a KFT player the top end average par 3 would be 170 yds. 

 

PAR 4s: The average KFT driving distance number is 302.7 yds. If I use some specious math that means the avg Par 4 (419 yds) less the average driver distance (302.7) means the average distance remaining into the hole is 116 yds which I assume is a gap wedge for a tour player. So for me to have a gap wedge left in on a par 4 that would be my average drive 260 yds + 100 yds (GW carry) which equals 370 yds to have the same distance challenge as a KFT tour player on a par 4. 

 

PAR 5s: This is where I think it is really interesting. A KFT tour player hits it an average of 302.7 yds off the tee so their average distance remaining into a green is 253 yds. I would assume that is a 5W? Maybe a 2-3 Hybrid for them? For me to have 220 (my 3H/5W carry on a good/great strike) left in, I would have to play 260 (driver) + 220 (3H) = 480 yd par 5.

 

Ultimately this means, on a standard par 72 course, I would be looking at [(170*4) + (370*10) + (480*4)] = 6,300 as an absolute top end distance. In reality, I play from 5,900 - 6,000 yds because if 6,300 yds would be the same relative distance as a KFT tour player....then why would I subject myself to the same test when I suck? 😄

[Argonne69]

22 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

 

I tried to do this using KFT data and looking at the average length of their golf courses, which is about 7,133 yds which broke down into:

 

Avg Par 3: 191 yds

Avg Par 4: 419 yds

Avg Par 5: 556 yds

 

PAR 3s: 191 is a pretty stout par 3, I would assume that is a mid iron for most KFT players somewhere in the 6i range. For me, my 6i carries about 170 so to have the same distance challenge as a KFT player the top end average par 3 would be 170 yds. 

 

PAR 4s: The average KFT driving distance number is 302.7 yds. If I use some specious math that means the avg Par 4 (419 yds) less the average driver distance (302.7) means the average distance remaining into the hole is 116 yds which I assume is a gap wedge for a tour player. So for me to have a gap wedge left in on a par 4 that would be my average drive 260 yds + 100 yds (GW carry) which equals 370 yds to have the same distance challenge as a KFT tour player on a par 4. 

 

PAR 5s: This is where I think it is really interesting. A KFT tour player hits it an average of 302.7 yds off the tee so their average distance remaining into a green is 253 yds. I would assume that is a 5W? Maybe a 2-3 Hybrid for them? For me to have 220 (my 3H/5W carry on a good/great strike) left in, I would have to play 260 (driver) + 220 (3H) = 480 yd par 5.

 

Ultimately this means, on a standard par 72 course, I would be looking at [(170*4) + (370*10) + (480*4)] = 6,300 as an absolute top end distance. In reality, I play from 5,900 - 6,000 yds because if 6,300 yds would be the same relative distance as a KFT tour player....then why would I subject myself to the same test when I suck? 😄

 

Driving averages have gone through the roof. The mens' tours used to have averages in the 285 range. Now it's 305+. They're now playing 23x the average, as opposed to 25 to 26? Par 5s averaging 256 is crazy. 4s averaging 419 is nuts. 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 6/17/2020 at 6:49 AM, trilerian said:

I think how well you get off the tee should determine what tees you play from. I'm not talking strictly distance here. A guy who hit 225 yds, but down the middle most of the time is going to be able to better handle tees that are further back than the guy who hits 250 but is rarely in play. Usually when trying to figure out what tees I am going to play, I look at the longest par 4s. If there are a lot of par 4s that are over 400 yds, I look at the next box up. Par 3s, so long as they are not over 220. This usually results in the tees around 6200 yds for me. If I took my 5i and multiplied by 36, I would be at 6800 yds, and that would put me way out of my league.

 

This is it for me. I don't play forward tees to shoot the best score. I don't play back tees (on most courses) because I'm simply not long enough. I like to play the course that basically is most "appropriate" for my distance. 

 

For me, 450 yards is the point where I would have to hit a PERFECT drive and then a PERFECT 4h or even 5w to get on in two. So that's my limit on par 4s. If there are par 4 holes are over 450, it's too far back. And that doesn't mean I want to play a course where there are a half-dozen par 4s between 415 and 445 either--that's far enough that I'm going to be struggling all day. 

Same with the par 3s. Generally I don't want to see a par 3 over 200. I'm okay if there's ONE that's a bit over 200, but if there's one over 200 and the the others are 178, 189, and 194, I'm probably too far back. There should be variety that some par 3s are being approached with mid-short irons.

 

For me that means I'm probably in the 6000-6500 range. And that doesn't mean I'm banging driver on every par 4--often at that distance there will be risk-reward par 4s where I'm taking something else off a tee because of the situation. 

 

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Haha most golf is judged by bogies and doubles. 😉 A lady that works as a starter and a pretty decent golfer took lessons and her instructor told her everyone has the ability to shoot par if they play the right tees. Considering 1% of all golfers can shoot par playing by the rules aside, his advice was teeing up in the fairway?!? She reaches every par 5 in two easily, can drive a few par 4's and plays the par 3's from the tee box. I just don't understand how an instructor could completely take the challenge out of a difficult game and make par as easy as using bumper guards while bowling competitively. 

 

I'm just confused on whether what he meant to say was what she inferred from what he said... 

 

We set par for holes as number of strokes required to reach the green (based on distance), plus two putts. So baked into the equation is 2-putting.

 

IMHO, the idea should be that every golfer chooses a set of tees that they're capable of reaching every green in regulation. If that's the case, you're saying that by playing from that distance, you're capable of making par on every hole with a 2-putt.

 

And if you're capable of making par on every hole with a two-putt, then theoretically you have the ability to shoot even par on that course. It doesn't mean you have the skill to do so, nor the consistency, nor that you'll ever actually do it, but you have the ability. 

 

If you're playing tees where you are going to have multiple holes that require you to get up-and-down from off the green to make par because you can't even reach the greens in regulation, then I'd say that you're playing a course beyond your ability to shoot par, because you're relying on the ability to do better than the way the course par is set, i.e. strokes to reach the green plus two putts per green. 

 

If he was really trying to advise that someone should nerf the course so tremendously that they may be giving themselves 50 yards into a par 4 green or 150 into a par 5 to "shoot par", I'd say he was off his meds. 

[chisag]

 

And if you're capable of making par on every hole with a two-putt, then theoretically you have the ability to shoot even par on that course. It doesn't mean you have the skill to do so, nor the consistency, nor that you'll ever actually do it, but you have the ability. 

... the words she used was "every golfer should be able to shoot par for 18 holes"

 

If he was really trying to advise that someone should nerf the course so tremendously that they may be giving themselves 50 yards into a par 4 green or 150 into a par 5 to "shoot par", I'd say he was off his meds. 

... I am only getting the instructors ideas 2nd hand from his student. But according to her, yes tee off from the fairway and on some holes this can be 100 yds or more. Her tee shots on #1 are definitely within 50 yds of the green and some shorter par 4's she can drive it on the green teeing off from the fairway. I just don't get it because she has the game to shoot in the mid to upper 80's from the forward tees at 5442 which putts her in pretty rare company. 

[nsxguy]

On 12/15/2022 at 1:35 PM, vandyfan said:

To the OP's point, I now play the tees where I have the most options (don't HAVE to hit driver off every par 4 tee) and prefer going low over increasing my challenge. Now that it is winter I will typically play courses shorter and one thing I have found that is handy is to use the "Handicap Calculator" on the GHIN website to determine my tee. Basically, as a 6.1, I want to find the tees that put me around a 1 or 0 course handicap so that if I shoot even par it is basically a 1 or 0 differential on my HDCP.

 

 

I suspect you misstated what you meant.

 

As a 6 index, playing to a CH of 0 means you'd be playing from a tee set with a course rating of 6 under the par of the course.

 

If, e.g. par is 72 and the CR is 66, you'd have a CH of about 0. But if you shot even par that day, your differential for the round would be about 6, not 0.

 

To get a differential of 0 you'd have to shoot about 6 under par, 66. (CR).

 

Of course slope rating would change these numbers a little but not much.

[MelloYello]

I've always found the problem with moving too far up is having to hit a huge variety of clubs off the tee which becomes it's own issue. 

 

There's something to be said for being able to pull driver on every hole. It's not that hard to find a rhythm, versus having to constantly switch between driver, 3w, 5w and iron. 

 

My home club isn't very long. The member tees are 6,400 and the tips are 6,800. I played the tips a lot when the weather is nicer in the summer & fall. It generally makes my handicap index a bit lower, too. So it's an ego boost.

 

Thing is, your index is based on rounds in which you drove it well so there's not much difference between a good driver off the back tees or a good 4w off the member tees. You probably made a good score on both. 

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, MelloYello said:

I've always found the problem with moving too far up is having to hit a huge variety of clubs off the tee which becomes it's own issue. 

 

There's something to be said for being able to pull driver on every hole. It's not that hard to find a rhythm, versus having to constantly switch between driver, 3w, 5w and iron. 

 

My home club isn't very long. The member tees are 6,400 and the tips are 6,800. I played the tips a lot when the weather is nicer in the summer & fall. It generally makes my handicap index a bit lower, too. So it's an ego boost.

 

Thing is, your index is based on rounds in which you drove it well so there's not much difference between a good driver off the back tees or a good 4w off the member tees. You probably made a good score on both. 

Playing the shorter tees will make you a better player because you have to play lots of different clubs off tees to manage your way around a course.  You learn where you can be aggressive hitting driver and where you must lay back.  It also forces you to make more birdies to maintain your handicap index.  Knowing that you have to make more birdies (or pars or bogeys depending on your ability) to shoot your handicap puts pressure on different parts of your game that don't necessarily get that push playing longer tees.  Ultimately playing a variety of tees will make your game more well rounded because every facet of the game gets tested and it becomes very clear where improvements can be made.

[MelloYello]

8 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Playing the shorter tees will make you a better player because you have to play lots of different clubs off tees to manage your way around a course.  You learn where you can be aggressive hitting driver and where you must lay back.  It also forces you to make more birdies to maintain your handicap index.  Knowing that you have to make more birdies (or pars or bogeys depending on your ability) to shoot your handicap puts pressure on different parts of your game that don't necessarily get that push playing longer tees.  Ultimately playing a variety of tees will make your game more well rounded because every facet of the game gets tested and it becomes very clear where improvements can be made.

 

Both have their advantages. You can't overlook that longer is harder in many ways. Misses off the tee are much more penal and shots into the green are generally longer. Par-3s get a lot more difficult as well. 

 

 

But in general, I whole-heartedly agree with your point. I like the idea of playing all the tees. I even advocate ditching the range practice and just banging a couple balls off the red tees every now and again to get on the course hitting real iron shots and getting some exercise. 

 

I generally hate showing up and playing the same exact tee boxes week after week after week. I play 100+ times per year. I can't do the same thing all the time. 

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, MelloYello said:

 

Both have their advantages. You can't overlook that longer is harder in many ways. Misses off the tee are much more penal and shots into the green are generally longer. Par-3s get a lot more difficult as well. 

 

 

But in general, I whole-heartedly agree with your point. I like the idea of playing all the tees. I even advocate ditching the range practice and just banging a couple balls off the red tees every now and again to get on the course hitting real iron shots and getting some exercise. 

 

I generally hate showing up and playing the same exact tee boxes week after week after week. I play 100+ times per year. I can't do the same thing all the time. 

Playing longer tees is good as well.  It is all about stressing parts of your game that get bypassed because certain tees don't require those parts.

[MelloYello]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Playing longer tees is good as well.  It is all about stressing parts of your game that get bypassed because certain tees don't require those parts.

 

Kind of, but there are also times where you're expressly looking for the easier option (i.e. competition). 

 

When you're actually competing you want the advantage. sometimes moving back (to gain strokes) is actually the more favorable option. We see that a lot in our yearly Match-Play tournament. Many longer hitters don't want to play off a scratch handicap on the member tees so they'll move back and pick up a couple strokes knowing it'll probably come down to putting & short game anyway. 

[vandyfan]

22 hours ago, nsxguy said:

I suspect you misstated what you meant.

 

As a 6 index, playing to a CH of 0 means you'd be playing from a tee set with a course rating of 6 under the par of the course.

correct, I misspoke. I meant I play the tees where shooting even par keeps my handicap essentially the same.

[vandyfan]

I just want to point out a very small (and possibly cherry picked) example from this past New Year's break. The golf channel was showing re-runs of final rounds and I happened to see the Rocket Mortgage where Cantlay was playing the 561 yd par 5 and he hit Driver (340 yd) and then 7 IRON (from like 210) over the green. To me, Cantlay is long but not an out and out bomber (he was 40th in driving distance last season). So I had to keep watching and then looking into the shotlink data and this thread came up in my mind.

 

Then on #14 (he made eagle) he had another 7 iron into the green:

 

 

Going through the shotlink data on his final round he had the following distances left into par 4s and 5s:

 

Hole 1: 75 yds

Hole 2: 141 yds

Hole 3: 84 yds

Hole 4 (par 5): 263 yds

Hole 6: 163 yds

Hole 7 (par 5): 207 yds (this was the 7 iron he hit over the green)
Hole 8: 146 yds

Hole 10: 121 yds

Hole 12: 178 yds

Hole 13: 38 yds

Hole 14 (par 5): 204 yds

Hole 16: 164 yds

Hole 17 (par 5): 229 yds

Hole 18: 176 yds

 

Average Distance into a par 4 is 128.6 yds (which I would assume is a gap wedge if his 7 iron goes 200 freaking yards). Average distance into a par 5 was 225 yds which is probably a 6 iron, maybe a 5 iron. Average distance for par 3s was 180 yds which I would guess is an 8 iron? 

 

So, what is the point? This is the final round of a PGA Tour event and the best players in the world are averaging a wedge and a mid iron into the par 4s and 5s, respectively. If part of the enjoyment of golf is "hitting every club in your bag" or "not having a bunch of wedges into the green" then fine, so be it. Just know that on the best tour in the world we are not holding elite players to that standard at the average tour event. So I would propose this math as a "CANTLAY TEST" rather than these ludicrous 5 iron distance * 36 or Driver distance * 25, that is if you want the same challenge as a routine PGA tour stop. Also, just remember you don't get TIO relief, trampled down rough from patrons, patrons helping you find your ball, and the SAME sand at every tour stop (literally the same type of sand regardless of course). No one will ever do this, most everyone will say this is WAY too short but, to me at least, it makes some sense....

 

Par 3s --> (AVERAGE 8 IRON CARRY) * 4 = XXX yds

Par 4s --> [ (AVERAGE DRIVING DISTANCE) + (AVERAGE GAP WEDGE CARRY DISTANCE) ] * 10 = X,XXX yds

Par 5s --> [ (AVERAGE DRIVING DISTANCE) + (AVERAGE 5 IRON CARRY DISTANCE) * 4 = X,XXX yds

 

So for me that is: 

 

[MelloYello]

2 hours ago, vandyfan said:

I just want to point out a very small (and possibly cherry picked) example from this past New Year's break. The golf channel was showing re-runs of final rounds and I happened to see the Rocket Mortgage where Cantlay was playing the 561 yd par 5 and he hit Driver (340 yd) and then 7 IRON (from like 210) over the green. To me, Cantlay is long but not an out and out bomber (he was 40th in driving distance last season). So I had to keep watching and then looking into the shotlink data and this thread came up in my mind.

 

Then on #14 (he made eagle) he had another 7 iron into the green:

 

 

Going through the shotlink data on his final round he had the following distances left into par 4s and 5s:

 

Hole 1: 75 yds

Hole 2: 141 yds

Hole 3: 84 yds

Hole 4 (par 5): 263 yds

Hole 6: 163 yds

Hole 7 (par 5): 207 yds (this was the 7 iron he hit over the green)
Hole 8: 146 yds

Hole 10: 121 yds

Hole 12: 178 yds

Hole 13: 38 yds

Hole 14 (par 5): 204 yds

Hole 16: 164 yds

Hole 17 (par 5): 229 yds

Hole 18: 176 yds

 

Average Distance into a par 4 is 128.6 yds (which I would assume is a gap wedge if his 7 iron goes 200 freaking yards). Average distance into a par 5 was 225 yds which is probably a 6 iron, maybe a 5 iron. Average distance for par 3s was 180 yds which I would guess is an 8 iron? 

 

So, what is the point? This is the final round of a PGA Tour event and the best players in the world are averaging a wedge and a mid iron into the par 4s and 5s, respectively. If part of the enjoyment of golf is "hitting every club in your bag" or "not having a bunch of wedges into the green" then fine, so be it. Just know that on the best tour in the world we are not holding elite players to that standard at the average tour event. So I would propose this math as a "CANTLAY TEST" rather than these ludicrous 5 iron distance * 36 or Driver distance * 25, that is if you want the same challenge as a routine PGA tour stop. Also, just remember you don't get TIO relief, trampled down rough from patrons, patrons helping you find your ball, and the SAME sand at every tour stop (literally the same type of sand regardless of course). No one will ever do this, most everyone will say this is WAY too short but, to me at least, it makes some sense....

 

Par 3s --> (AVERAGE 8 IRON CARRY) * 4 = XXX yds

Par 4s --> [ (AVERAGE DRIVING DISTANCE) + (AVERAGE GAP WEDGE CARRY DISTANCE) ] * 10 = X,XXX yds

Par 5s --> [ (AVERAGE DRIVING DISTANCE) + (AVERAGE 5 IRON CARRY DISTANCE) * 4 = X,XXX yds

 

So for me that is: 

 

 

Interesting idea!

 

As applied to me, your formula(s) recommends a course about 6,300-yds and that's about spot on for our member tees: 

 

Member Tees: 6,400-yds

Back Tees: 6,800-yds

 

I generally agree that unless you're playing a real flat course that is relatively open & straight (or one at extreme elevation), you need to be careful about adding distance. Here in the American Southeast where everything is some dogleg on a slope and the ground is usually pretty soft, 6,800 is longer than it sounds. 

 

.

Edited January 3, 2023 by MelloYello

[DaveGoodrich]

1 hour ago, vandyfan said:

I just want to point out a very small (and possibly cherry picked) example from this past New Year's break. The golf channel was showing re-runs of final rounds and I happened to see the Rocket Mortgage where Cantlay was playing the 561 yd par 5 and he hit Driver (340 yd) and then 7 IRON (from like 210) over the green. To me, Cantlay is long but not an out and out bomber (he was 40th in driving distance last season). So I had to keep watching and then looking into the shotlink data and this thread came up in my mind.

 

Then on #14 (he made eagle) he had another 7 iron into the green:

 

 

Going through the shotlink data on his final round he had the following distances left into par 4s and 5s:

 

Hole 1: 75 yds

Hole 2: 141 yds

Hole 3: 84 yds

Hole 4 (par 5): 263 yds

Hole 6: 163 yds

Hole 7 (par 5): 207 yds (this was the 7 iron he hit over the green)
Hole 8: 146 yds

Hole 10: 121 yds

Hole 12: 178 yds

Hole 13: 38 yds

Hole 14 (par 5): 204 yds

Hole 16: 164 yds

Hole 17 (par 5): 229 yds

Hole 18: 176 yds

 

Average Distance into a par 4 is 128.6 yds (which I would assume is a gap wedge if his 7 iron goes 200 freaking yards). Average distance into a par 5 was 225 yds which is probably a 6 iron, maybe a 5 iron. Average distance for par 3s was 180 yds which I would guess is an 8 iron? 

 

So, what is the point? This is the final round of a PGA Tour event and the best players in the world are averaging a wedge and a mid iron into the par 4s and 5s, respectively. If part of the enjoyment of golf is "hitting every club in your bag" or "not having a bunch of wedges into the green" then fine, so be it. Just know that on the best tour in the world we are not holding elite players to that standard at the average tour event. So I would propose this math as a "CANTLAY TEST" rather than these ludicrous 5 iron distance * 36 or Driver distance * 25, that is if you want the same challenge as a routine PGA tour stop. Also, just remember you don't get TIO relief, trampled down rough from patrons, patrons helping you find your ball, and the SAME sand at every tour stop (literally the same type of sand regardless of course). No one will ever do this, most everyone will say this is WAY too short but, to me at least, it makes some sense....

 

Par 3s --> (AVERAGE 8 IRON CARRY) * 4 = XXX yds

Par 4s --> [ (AVERAGE DRIVING DISTANCE) + (AVERAGE GAP WEDGE CARRY DISTANCE) ] * 10 = X,XXX yds

Par 5s --> [ (AVERAGE DRIVING DISTANCE) + (AVERAGE 5 IRON CARRY DISTANCE) * 4 = X,XXX yds

 

So for me that is: 

 

 

I like this way of looking at it.   Using this calculation (with my low 90's driver speed), it does come up quite a bit shorter (~5600 yards) than what I usually play (~6200). It would be interesting to do the calculation in reverse to see how long a course the pros would have to play to be hitting the same clubs into the greens as "we" do.   Just based on average distances per club, I suspect it would be something like 8300 yards.  

 

For me, courses usually play what I consider to be "as designed" when they are around 6000-6200 yards.  At this length, fairway bunkers are in play, I'm hitting wedges into the shortest Par 4's, I may need a hybrid for one or two long Par 4s, and one or two of the Par 5's are "reachable."  Based on @vandyfan's analysis, this is "longer" than what the pro's play.   They are playing short irons into almost every Par 4 and most of the Par 5's are reachable.  

 

Next time I have a chance to play a course with tour like conditioning, I'm going to try to get my buddies to play some 5600ish tees to get the true "tour experience."    

 

[vandyfan]

1 hour ago, DaveGoodrich said:

It would be interesting to do the calculation in reverse to see how long a course the pros would have to play to be hitting the same clubs into the greens as "we" do.

 

I tried to do that, again using Cantlay, and I am trying to use the standard "what men play" which is very debatable. Many guys (25-40 yrs old) I know "won't play anything shorter than 6,400 yds" (never mind these guys are 15-20 hdcps but I'll leave that aside). At 6,400 yds I would think it would break down like this:

 

6,400 / 18 = 355 avg length of ALL holes. I can get there by saying:

 

Avg Par 3 = 155 * 4 = 620 yds

Avg Par 4 = 370 * 10 = 3,700 yds

Avg Par 5 = 520 * 4 = 2,080 yds

 

For me, that is 7 iron into par 3s, Driver + PW into par 4s and Driver + FW + LW into 5s

 

So for Cantlay I would guess (conservatively)

 

Par 3 - 205 * 4 = 820 yds (7 iron)
Par 4 - 460 * 10 = 4,600 yds  (320 yd drive + 140 yd PW)

Par 5 - 660 * 4 = 2,640 yds (320 yd drive + 260 yd fwy + 80 yd LW)

 

Which totals 8,060 yds. I think that would be a fair test for the PGA Tour but what do I know?

[david.c.w]

If I do the 5i *36 calculation I come out to 7200.  No thanks.  (and yes, those are good 5 irons, not my average)

 

If I do @vandyfancalculations I get to 6600.  My normal tees in the summer are at 6800, although a few are always on a forward tee box.  If I am driving the ball well I end up hitting no more than a 9i approach to the green.  I think 6600 is too short for me, and I will end up hitting 3w instead of driver on a few holes.  Although I really like the 6600 par 3's.  From my summer tee boxes two of the par 3's are a 6i at best, and more likely a 5i.  Ooof.

 

Perhaps it is more about gut feel.  Everyone knows their home course sweet spot that is fun and challenging.  When you travel ask the shop or ranger about the style of course.  If it is going to eat you up off the tee AND out of the rough AND around the green AND on the green, move up a few hundred.

 

 

[Golferpaul]

On 1/3/2023 at 10:16 AM, vandyfan said:

 

 

So, what is the point? This is the final round of a PGA Tour event and the best players in the world are averaging a wedge and a mid iron into the par 4s and 5s, respectively. If part of the enjoyment of golf is "hitting every club in your bag" or "not having a bunch of wedges into the green" then fine, so be it. Just know that on the best tour in the world we are not holding elite players to that standard at the average tour event. So I would propose this math as a "CANTLAY TEST" rather than these ludicrous 5 iron distance * 36 or Driver distance * 25, that is if you want the same challenge as a routine PGA tour stop. Also, just remember you don't get TIO relief, trampled down rough from patrons, patrons helping you find your ball, and the SAME sand at every tour stop (literally the same type of sand regardless of course). No one will ever do this, most everyone will say this is WAY too short but, to me at least, it makes some sense....

 

Par 3s --> (AVERAGE 8 IRON CARRY) * 4 = XXX yds

Par 4s --> [ (AVERAGE DRIVING DISTANCE) + (AVERAGE GAP WEDGE CARRY DISTANCE) ] * 10 = X,XXX yds

Par 5s --> [ (AVERAGE DRIVING DISTANCE) + (AVERAGE 5 IRON CARRY DISTANCE) * 4 = X,XXX yds

 

So for me that is: 

 

This is essentially what I said.  For most courses, I think the par 5s are where we hit much longer clubs into the green as compared to pros because most courses keep them too long even when playing the white tees.

 

One question.  How far do you hit a driver and five-iron?

[vandyfan]

41 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

One question.  How far do you hit a driver and five-iron?

 

Average Driver is 260 yds and 5 iron (27*) is 180-185 yds. So if Cantlay is hitting a 7 iron over the green from 200+ he is AT LEAST 2-2.5 clubs longer than me through his irons. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 1/3/2023 at 1:07 PM, vandyfan said:

Which totals 8,060 yds. I think that would be a fair test for the PGA Tour but what do I know?

 

Yeah, maybe you wouldn't see players winning tournaments shooting -18 over four rounds... 

 

But Tour players think requiring three shots to reach a par 5 is a travesty...

 

https://golf.com/news/tyrrell-hatton-nuclear-hole-design/

 

Quote

“What’s wrong with it? Where do you start? It shouldn’t have a bunker in the middle of the fairway, and it shouldn’t be over 600 yards from a forward tee,” he said Saturday. “If you hit a good drive as a pro, you should have at least a chance to go for the green in two, otherwise the hole becomes a par-3, and that’s if you play it well. Hardly anyone will get there in two with the wind even slightly against you.”

 

Somewhat of an entitled mentality when the absolute assumption is that you should be able to reach the par 5s in two. The way we determine par is "number of strokes to reach green from tee based on distance, plus two putts". It's *supposed* to take three shots to get there. 

 

So yeah, maybe the pro's should be playing par 5s as, you know, par 5s. 

[vandyfan]

19 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Somewhat of an entitled mentality when the absolute assumption is that you should be able to reach the par 5s in two. The way we determine par is "number of strokes to reach green from tee based on distance, plus two putts". It's *supposed* to take three shots to get there. 

 

I listen to the Shotgun Start podcast so I am well versed with Hatton's golf course commentary, haha. It is crazy though that the best players in the world *expect* par 5s they can reach in two whilst your average 10 hdcp is playing 570 yd par 5s that he/she has NO chance of reaching on any day. If I played the tees I was "supposed to" play, I wouldn't be able to reach any of the par 5s at my home course and that isn't even the tips. The par 5s go 560 yds (nope), 545 yds with a green that is raised 20 ft and has bunkers short of it (nope) and then 550 yds. and 535 yds (always into the wind). 

[Golferpaul]

21 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yeah, maybe you wouldn't see players winning tournaments shooting -18 over four rounds... 

 

But Tour players think requiring three shots to reach a par 5 is a travesty...

 

https://golf.com/news/tyrrell-hatton-nuclear-hole-design/

 

 

Somewhat of an entitled mentality when the absolute assumption is that you should be able to reach the par 5s in two. The way we determine par is "number of strokes to reach green from tee based on distance, plus two putts". It's *supposed* to take three shots to get there. 

 

So yeah, maybe the pro's should be playing par 5s as, you know, par 5s. 

Or maybe the "three shot requirement" is dated and should be ignored.  Maybe a par five should only be required to be longer than par 4s so that you get to hit a wide variety of approach shots.

 

Pro golf is entertainment.  I suspect fans are more entertained by pros going for the green in two instead of playing it as a three-shot hole.  All of the par fives at August fit that entertaining model and I wouldn't want them changed at all.

 

So, then what do we change for the rest of us.  We are not very entertaining and play for fun.  So why shouldn't all amateurs have par fives that they can reach in two shots?  Isn't that more fun and exciting than playing them as three shot holes?

 

And isn't that also true for drivable par fours?   They are very exciting.

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Or maybe the "three shot requirement" is dated and should be ignored.  Maybe a par five should only be required to be longer than par 4s so that you get to hit a wide variety of approach shots.

 

Pro golf is entertainment.  I suspect fans are more entertained by pros going for the green in two instead of playing it as a three-shot hole.  All of the par fives at August fit that entertaining model and I wouldn't want them changed at all.

 

So, then what do we change for the rest of us.  We are not very entertaining and play for fun.  So why shouldn't all amateurs have par fives that they can reach in two shots?  Isn't that more fun and exciting than playing them as three shot holes?

 

And isn't that also true for drivable par fours?   They are very exciting.

 

It is entertainment. Viewers love seeing eagle opportunities. Pros love having them too, and holes where you almost have to screw up to not make birdie, because even if you don't make GIR you're chipping to get "up and down" to "save birdie". 

 

I just find it strange when the scoring Tour average on par 3's is like 3.06, and on par 4's it's like 4.02, and then on par 5's it's in the 4.61 range. And the reason for it on the par 5's is that nearly everyone in the field is capable of reaching in 2, easily. 

 

I'm actually not saying there's anything wrong with that BTW. I'm saying that it's one of the reasons that trying to equate PGA tour course distances to average golfer course distances doesn't entirely make sense. To get the PGA tour scoring average anywhere near 5.00 on these par 5 holes you'd probably have to average 700 yards. Courses aren't built for that and I'm not suggesting we change. I'd rather see some of those 550 yard par 5 holes be reclassified as par 4. I mean, if you can hit driver/9i on a par 5, is it really a par 5? 

 

What I *am* saying is that Tour distances aren't, and maybe shouldn't be, directly analogous to "regular player" distances. Just because a Tour player can basically reach par 5s with a driver and mid-iron, doesn't mean that we should all play from 5600 yards so we can do the same. I have a local course with four par 5s where the final one, on 18, is 455 yards from the tees I play. Which is JUST in range for two shots if I hit a great drive. 

 

I think drivable par 4s and par 5s that are reachable in 2 are exciting. But I don't want 3-4 of the par 4s on a course to be drivable, and I don't want every par 5 to be easily reachable in 2. Seems like it's nerfing the game. 

[klebs01]

5 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Or maybe the "three shot requirement" is dated and should be ignored.  Maybe a par five should only be required to be longer than par 4s so that you get to hit a wide variety of approach shots.

 

Pro golf is entertainment.  I suspect fans are more entertained by pros going for the green in two instead of playing it as a three-shot hole.  All of the par fives at August fit that entertaining model and I wouldn't want them changed at all.

 

So, then what do we change for the rest of us.  We are not very entertaining and play for fun.  So why shouldn't all amateurs have par fives that they can reach in two shots?  Isn't that more fun and exciting than playing them as three shot holes?

 

And isn't that also true for drivable par fours?   They are very exciting.

Those are exciting because they are feats that most golfers can’t accomplish. I don’t see how nerfing the game makes it more exciting. It just makes it easier and less interesting. 

[llewol007]

I remember taking up the game long ago when they would ask your handicap before even thinking about teeing off from the blue or back tees. Nowadays, I see a lot of players teeing off from the blues or back tees that struggle hitting the ball effectively to enjoy the round. I for one would probably not enjoy the round if all I am doing is beating the ball off the tee box and not getting enough distance to even reach the 150 marker. I would move up a tee until I can have at least a shot 150 and in for my second shot. Nothing against skill because this is a game that is learned over time and not something you just master over night. With that being said, players coming in to the game start with the forward tees until you can score effectively over the course on a constant basis. Over time, the game comes around and your contact on the ball improves to where you are picking up more distance with your clubs and can move back a marker. Once you start scoring consistently enough, then you move back again or remain where you are and challenge yourself other ways. Tee markers are there to bring challenges in play. Whether it is a bunker in the fairway or a hazard that you have to clear. The further out can bring more obstacles and the better your game has to be.