Handicap Deflation Issues

[Pepperturbo]

@cardoustie  I appreciate reading about you beating a better golfer that out drives you.  ?  Keep it up!

 

[cardoustie]

4 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

@cardoustie  I appreciate reading about you beating a better golfer that out drives you.  ?  Keep it up!

 

Peps,

this guy just won a local mini tour event this week shooting 68-64.  He’d kill me on open and longer tracks ... all day long

i will be crushed in the club c’s this weekend, plus we have a d1 golfer this year ... I’m too old to grind this hard !!!

[Coop_Scoop12]

In my opinion the difference between a scratch player and +handicap is usually short game and bounceback ability from a bogey. I have played with a lot of people who are scratch who occasionally shoot in the 80s because they aren't birdie machines. Whereas a plus player can hit a bad tee shot take their bogey but know they are going to make at least 1 birdie to cancel it out. I personally see alot of scratch players who are bogey free or 1 bogey type of golfers that may get 1 birdie a round (boring golf). 

[pinhigh27]

1 hour ago, Coop_Scoop12 said:

because they aren't birdie machines

They aren't making birdies with their short game. 

 

It's ballstriking 

[davep043]

13 hours ago, Coop_Scoop12 said:

Whereas a plus player can hit a bad tee shot take their bogey but know they are going to make at least 1 birdie to cancel it out. 

 

11 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

They aren't making birdies with their short game. 

 

It's ballstriking 

Its funny how much easier it is to make birdies when you routinely hit the ball close to the pin.  Ballstriking!

[bluedot]

59 minutes ago, davep043 said:

 

Its funny how much easier it is to make birdies when you routinely hit the ball close to the pin.  Ballstriking!

 

Absolutely!  There are, of course, exceptions, but length off the tee and proximity of approach are king. 

 

There are always stories about "a guy I know" who gets up and down all the time, but what's ignored in that is that the biggest factor in having a good short game is missing in places where you can get up and down, there are places around every green where a Tour pro would struggle to get up and down, and places around every green where a bogey golfer would have a good chance of getting up and down.  Scratch or plus players miss in the good places, not the bad ones; some of that is course management, but most it is just plain old ball striking.

[Coop_Scoop12]

13 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

They aren't making birdies with their short game. 

 

It's ballstriking 

I agree ballstriking is a big part. But unless you are an elite ballstriker you have still make putts. I have seen lots of "good" to "great" ballstrikers never break 75 because their short game is so bad. You also have to love those who cant hit the center of the clubface thin and chunk their way to a 68 because of shortgame... Golf is a fun game! ?

Edited August 28, 2020 by Coop_Scoop12

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Coop_Scoop12 said:

I agree ballstriking is a big part. But unless you are an elite ballstriker you have still make putts. I have seen lots of "good" to "great" ballstrikers never break 75 because their short game is so bad. You also have to love those who cant hit the center of the clubface thin and chunk their way to a 68 because of shortgame... Golf is a fun game! ?

I can't say I've seen a lot of birdies from players who thin and chunk it around, they don't hit enough greens to have enough putts for birdie.  Lots of par saves, perhaps, but not many birdies.

But as with any generality, there are exceptions.  I'm happy to accept the Stokes Gained conclusions as generally accurate, the biggest difference between levels of play comes from (generally) full swing stuff, with short game and putting being a (generally) smaller part of the difference.

[nsxguy]

On 8/23/2020 at 11:51 PM, Mudguard said:

I thought it the system was fairly robust but has it's quirks. Two courses near me are virtually identical. Slope same, yardage the same, yet the one I think is more difficult has a lower course rating. Yet it never has extreme scores. The higher course rating, has had scores of fifty stableford points, tens shooting par, twenties shooting eighty etc. Which never happens at the "easier" course. 

I just think the difficult one is rated incorrectly, should have a lower course rating. 

 

Unless you're "exaggerating for effect" you should contact your local golf association and have them take a(nother) look.

 

50 Stableford points and 10s shooting level par on such a high rated course no less, is virtually a once-in-a-lifetime, if that, occurrence.

 

The "Exceptional Score" table doesn't even go that far with its odds. Literally off the charts.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by nsxguy

[nsxguy]

[dupe-board bug]

Edited August 28, 2020 by nsxguy

[Pepperturbo]

19 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Peps,

this guy just won a local mini tour event this week shooting 68-64.  He’d kill me on open and longer tracks ... all day long

i will be crushed in the club c’s this weekend, plus we have a d1 golfer this year ... I’m too old to grind this hard !!!

 

Open and longer tracks is the only edge they have.  Tighten tracks and keep them around 7k - they are their own worst enemy. 

 

I too am old but we must.   Good luck

[cardoustie]

Mini tour guy has me by 1 after rd 1 of club c 

 

7000 74 144

 

I turned an epic round into a 78 .... a triple on 9 with a half topped pw into a pond from a horrific lie, double on 12 with a pulled 6 iron into forest, 4 three putts on 7, 10, 13, and 18

 

missed two 6 foot birdies on 3 and 11

 

and I rolled it well but missed my lines by a ball or 2, hit 15 greens, 4 birdies

 

literally 2 bad swings all day

 

36 to go
 

straight is so big on narrow tracks

[Mudguard]

On 8/29/2020 at 12:49 PM, cardoustie said:

Mini tour guy has me by 1 after rd 1 of club c 

 

 

How does someone who plays mini tours play a Club Champs?

[bluedot]

18 hours ago, Mudguard said:

How does someone who plays mini tours play a Club Champs?

 

Totally up to the club to decide whether or not they are going to let a "professional" play, unless they are somehow under the state golf association umbrella as a sanctioned tournament.  And there are all different levels of "mini-Tours", fwiw, so we might not be talking about a guy on his way to a long pro career.

 

We had a guy at my former club who was trying to make it as a playing pro who played in the club championship when he was in town.  The pro answered questions by saying that it was the "club championship" for members, and this kid was a member; end of story.  To me, the better question was always why the kid wanted to play anyway; win, and you beat a bunch of old guys with day jobs.  Lose, and, well, you lost to a bunch of old guys with day jobs.  Just never seemed like a good idea to me, but I wasn't in his position, so who knows.

[Obee]

On 8/17/2020 at 3:31 PM, MaxBuck said:

The thing about hcp and winning net games is this: it's not about the scores that count; it's about the scores that don't. 

So few people understand this. When gambling with net players over time, your "anti-index" (your 12 worst of 20, instead of your 8 best) is actually more important than your actual index!

 

Steady players, regardless of handicap, win more net bets, period.

[Obee]

On 8/10/2020 at 3:14 PM, Guest said:

I've noticed that my handicap doesn't usually travel well to short, tight courses. I'm a 0.6 currently but my home course is 7,200 yards and has a course rating of over 75 (my average score is around 79). I'm a somewhat long driver (SS 116, Carry 290) so the length doesn't provide any real challenge for me. In addition most holes on my home course have one side you can miss on off the tee and still be in play, which is huge for me because on off days I can be quite erratic off the tee. When I play "easier" golf courses I can have a good day off the tee and shoot around 74 (CR around 72) but if I'm spraying it a round in the 80's is in the cards. Another factor that makes my home couse easier for me to score on is that there are 5 par 5's, four of which are under 570 and thus reachable in two. Today, for example, I hit driver-7i and made eagle on 18 for a 77. Do any of you guys have a similar issue to this?

 

My home course is Crandon Golf at Key Biscayne btw.

You need a "fairway finder" tee shot. Something you can hit 225 to 250 on short, tight courses. You also probably need to learn to control your trajectory a bit better if you struggle on these kinds of courses. What is your low index ever? What is your high index of the last 12 months?

[llewol007]

i experienced the same thing. Playing a relatively tight course which happens to be shorter but with me posting my scores on a regular basis, my index dropped 2 points. 

[cardoustie]

FWIW, the mini tour guy lost to the d2 guy on the first playoff hole.  D1 kid was 3rd followed by me the old guy in 4th

 

Our course decided to let him play in it, committee wanted the best player to win but secretly I was told after they didn't want him winning in a landslide

 

He just top 20'd in a MacKenzie Tour event last week.  He jokes he's a plus 3 everywhere else but a 2 or 3 at his home course

 

It's a new game out there, this guy had 125 in on one 508 yard par 5, I was hitting 7 wood from 220 !!

[Mudguard]

On 9/7/2020 at 8:06 AM, bluedot said:

 

Totally up to the club to decide whether or not they are going to let a "professional" play, unless they are somehow under the state golf association umbrella as a sanctioned tournament.  And there are all different levels of "mini-Tours", fwiw, so we might not be talking about a guy on his way to a long pro career.

 

Hmm. It's pretty black and white for me. You're a pro until you get your amateur status back. Sure you can be a member of a club, that just allows you to play the course, not contest events. I'd complain to the committee, as soon as you're playing for money, you're not allowed in amateur events. What happens if next year ten pros join and play? 

[bluedot]

18 hours ago, Mudguard said:

 

Hmm. It's pretty black and white for me. You're a pro until you get your amateur status back. Sure you can be a member of a club, that just allows you to play the course, not contest events. I'd complain to the cnommittee, as soon as you're playing for money, you're not allowed in amateur events. What happens if next year ten pros join and play? 

 

You finish 11th?

 

Look, I'm not advocating letting pros play, but I get it from the club's perspective.  If a person is a dues paying member who happens to play at some professional level, excluding them from the club championship is going to be a tough call either way.  Different clubs come down on different sides of the question; I get it either way.

[Mudguard]

35 minutes ago, bluedot said:

 

If a person is a dues paying member who happens to play at some professional level, excluding them from the club championship is going to be a tough call either way. 

 

They're a professional, not an amateur it's that simple. Professionals join clubs so they have somewhere to play. Yes most most PGA members can play courses for free, but they can't turn up at the some one every week. 

They know the deal when they turn pro, play as a marker as long as it doesn't keep someone out, but not as a competitor. 

[Shilgy]

11 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

 

They're a professional, not an amateur it's that simple. Professionals join clubs so they have somewhere to play. Yes most most PGA members can play courses for free, but they can't turn up at the some one every week. 

They know the deal when they turn pro, play as a marker as long as it doesn't keep someone out, but not as a competitor. 

At our club they are allowed as long as they maintain a proper handicap and are dues paying members. Remember not all pro golfers play golf for a living.  Being in the Phoenix area we have quite a few aspiring young pros in the area.

[Mudguard]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

Remember not all pro golfers play golf for a living.  Being in the Phoenix area we have quite a few aspiring young pros in the area.

 

I realise that, but unless they apply for their amateur status back then they're out of luck. If they want to stay a PGA member that's cool. Just don't play amateur events. Aspiring pros are a good example. We just had one of our local amateurs win a pro event, and he turned pro after it. Do I want to see him in the club champs next month?

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

 

I realise that, but unless they apply for their amateur status back then they're out of luck. If they want to stay a PGA member that's cool. Just don't play amateur events. Aspiring pros are a good example. We just had one of our local amateurs win a pro event, and he turned pro after it. Do I want to see him in the club champs next month?

To the best of my knowledge none have played in the club championship-but they can. Some have played in other events occasionally giving back strokes. Our club champions would relish the challenge if the pros did compete. Winner this year was -12 for the two rounds.

[nsxguy]

20 hours ago, Mudguard said:

 

Hmm. It's pretty black and white for me. You're a pro until you get your amateur status back. Sure you can be a member of a club, that just allows you to play the course, not contest events. I'd complain to the committee, as soon as you're playing for money, you're not allowed in amateur events. What happens if next year ten pros join and play? 

 

1 hour ago, Mudguard said:

 

I realise that, but unless they apply for their amateur status back then they're out of luck. If they want to stay a PGA member that's cool. Just don't play amateur events. Aspiring pros are a good example. We just had one of our local amateurs win a pro event, and he turned pro after it. Do I want to see him in the club champs next month?

 

Please. You're almost arguing against yourself. Don't clubs make their own rules ? Where does it say pros can't "contest events" ?

 

And what good is "complaining to the Committee" ? They're the ones who have already let him IN,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, no doubt after making rules whether or not to allow him IN,,,,,,,,,,

[LCP]

Seems like I remember hearing Phil Mickelson keeps a USGA handicap at Whisper Rock so that he could play in the club championship tournament there.  If the pro is a regular member, let them play in the championship.  Sometimes there's a non-pro member that beats them; remember that too!

[Shilgy]

22 minutes ago, LCP said:

Seems like I remember hearing Phil Mickelson keeps a USGA handicap at Whisper Rock so that he could play in the club championship tournament there.  If the pro is a regular member, let them play in the championship.  Sometimes there's a non-pro member that beats them; remember that too!

The story famously is that Whisper Rock has a ton of tour boys and none have won the club championship as yet. And yes, I do recall they have played in it.

[Mudguard]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Some have played in other events occasionally giving back strokes. Our club champions would relish the challenge if the pros did compete.

 

As someone who works full time and plays maybe 1.5 times a week, I'd rather not compete against someone who does it for a living. It's like having too wide bands for Club Champs, if your senior division (as in ability, not age) is 0-9 it shouldn't really be gross, better if it's narrower, like 0-4. That sort of thing.

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Don't clubs make their own rules ? Where does it say pros can't "contest events" ?

You are right on this, well at least as far as I can google. It says for pros entering amateur events (IE Club Championships) it's up to the committee. I realise professionals keep handicaps, for various purposes (I know of some that do, as members complained about them filling in for member events and only playing off 0 instead perhaps a + handicap). Take it to an extreme, say you have some very handy tour players compete, have they submitted all their cards for the year?

 

It's come up before on this forum about possible handicaps professionals have been calculated to have. Perhaps your senior division becomes +10 to +5, Intermediate +4 to 0 and so on. 

[Mudguard]

1 hour ago, LCP said:

Seems like I remember hearing Phil Mickelson keeps a USGA handicap at Whisper Rock so that he could play in the club championship tournament there.  If the pro is a regular member, let them play in the championship.  Sometimes there's a non-pro member that beats them; remember that too!

 

I'd hope all his cards for the year are submitted!

?

[dhc1]

11 hours ago, Mudguard said:

 

As someone who works full time and plays maybe 1.5 times a week, I'd rather not compete against someone who does it for a living. 

 

You are right on this, well at least as far as I can google. It says for pros entering amateur events (IE Club Championships) it's up to the committee. 

why do you state that club championships are for amateurs?

 

club championships are designed to identify the best players at the club. To me, that means dues playing professional members and children of members are all eligible.

 

your desire to avoid players who practice more than you is irrelevant to the identification of the best player at the club.