Monte's new No Turn - Cast

[stephenmatt]

I would be very cautious of just going straight into this technique. Actively shallowing can become almost "false" shallowing if done a certain way. There is also no mention of grip match ups in this course and if you have a strong grip you are going to have a bad time trying to add flexion into the lead wrist and everything will start left and stay left. This video by Andrew Rice shows the difference between active and passive shallowing. There is some good stuff in this course but getting into a good position at the top with a good grip to wrist match up will benefit a lot of people more than trying to have this much action in the downswing. Quiet hands and letting the body do the work is a real thing.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by stephenmatt

[CasualLie]

To leap from what NTC "course" is showing to this concept of active shallowing being bad for you is not understand NTC at all.  Like everything else in golf, too much of a good thing can turn into a bad thing.  If everyone understands this before making a change, then they can keep it in perspective.

 

NTC is showing proper movements.  The current set of videos is an expansion of a drill.  It is a prescription for certain types of swing issues which happens to fit a lot of golfers.  When Monte's video is showing you, telling you to do X, it is not to be taken in large doses.  He clearly tells you Cast A is what happens in a good swing, for some it happens early, for some later, but it happens in a good swing and he has dozens of tour pro videos showing this.  Never does he say have your wrist do the wild samba that Andrew's first video is showing.

 

Quiet hands is another of those swing myths that have ruined so many people.  There are very specific wrist movements that have to happen or your body will be making compensations and you will lose distance/accuracy.  There are very specific body movements that have to happen or your hands will be making compensations and timing will be elusive.  The two go together, there is just no way around it.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by CasualLie

[stephenmatt]

Keeping things in perspective from one person to the next who views the video series is probably easier said than done. If someone follows exactly what he is showing in certain early parts of the series they will be really manipulating the club face similar to what Andrew Rice does in the active shallowing part. Understanding the NTC concept is one thing and pointing out that different grips and other matchups can alter how well this works for a golfer is another thing. They do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Edited March 1, 2021 by stephenmatt

[Tree Levino]

6 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This guy’s handicap is pretty low😜

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIvgUFrlzis/?igshid=rggsub0g0erl

great to hear from the man himself - thank you. 
 

My struggles to start this season are predominantly with driver. Long irons I start to leave the face slightly open but nothing terrible. I’m in the realm of 142 ish ball speed with my Apex MB 4 iron and around 225 carry on that club. 
 

With driver and fairways, I’m having a huge issue with leaving the face wide open. My path with driver used to be around 5 in to out and 5 up. Now it’s often out to in and my dynamic loft/spin loft/ face angle have all skyrocketed. At mid 160s ball speed I’m more often than not having bad swings spin in the mid 4000s for spin - absolutely unplayable. 
 

at this point, I won’t be able to play golf until it’s sorted, or at the very least I’ll have to play without my driver. It’s that bad. I would almost say it’s at the point of yips with the driver. Going to purchase today and see what I can gather. 

[CasualLie]

Like I said, anyone who sees it like you are warning, does not understand what is going on at all.  And after 34 pages of clarification in this thread, maybe golf just isn't going to work out.

 

That being said, the NTC video clearly shows how little the wrist movement is.  I would hardly call that manipulation.  It's a small, small movement in the context of what, .4 seconds of downswing?  It is shown as the opposite of what your wrist should not be doing.  And considering it is after a bump, as long as you keep that pivot moving, you are not going left to left.

 

Of course, any "manipulation" is a bad thing, and I mean any.  Restricting hip turn, firing hips, twisting your foot like some kind of corkscrew, there are dozens of body manipulations that at best are a temporary band aid.  Including excessively strong and weak grips.

 

But none of that is in NTC.  It's a drill, lot of drills, to get feels, so that in your dynamic swing, at speed, you are moving things in the right direction.  And then it is a lot of practice.

[BogeyBrian]

7 minutes ago, stephenmatt said:

Keeping things in perspective from one person to the next who views the video series is probably easier said than done. If someone follows exactly what he is showing in certain early parts of the series they will be really manipulating the club face similar to what Andrew Rice does in the active shallowing part. Understanding the NTC concept is one thing and pointing out that different grips and other matchups can alter how well this works for a golfer is another thing. They do not have to be mutually exclusive.

no offense...i don't care what andrew rice says..

 

start a different thread where you can explore his ideas 

[stephenmatt]

If you did not care I don't think you would have commented. I posted that simply because that is the video it reminded me of...

Edited March 1, 2021 by stephenmatt

[stephenmatt]

I don't disagree! Maybe I initially viewed some of the moves not as an exaggeration like in a drill. I will go back and watch it again. I think the drill could be useful but I also think there is definitely other matchups in the swing that could cause issues with the face if done exactly how it is shown in some of the videos.

Edited November 17, 2021 by stephenmatt

[CasualLie]

Just now, stephenmatt said:

I don't disagree! Maybe I initially viewed some of the moves not as an exaggeration like in a drill. I will go back and watch it again. I think the drill could be useful but I also think there is definitely other matchups in the swing that could cause issues with the face if done exactly how it is shown in some of the videos.

 

I'll give you that...people can interpret things way off.  You can watch the same video over and over and lose sight of what the big picture is about.  Yes, there is something to be said about grip matchups, but start with grip first because someone can be out of an acceptable window for most, but for themselves they make it work, and then they try a different wrist movement, and it all goes to hell.  But it is not because the drill was wrong, it is because their grip was wrong to begin with.

 

You can master NTC all day long, be a NTC savant, but align yourself wrong, for example left, and ball will go left.  You can even do something as subtle as have ball position at address be off by less than two inches...NTC is not going to solve that issue.

 

But that is not what NTC is about.  Re-watch the first videos going over the main issue it fixes on the backswing, and you will see it clearly tells people to skip to downswing if you don't have these problems, and the focus is now on the subtle but important "cast like" moves you make to get clubface squared up correctly.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, stephenmatt said:

I would be very cautious of just going straight into this technique. Actively shallowing can become almost "false" shallowing if done a certain way. There is also no mention of grip match ups in this course and if you have a strong grip you are going to have a bad time trying to add flexion into the lead wrist and everything will start left and stay left. This video by Andrew Rice shows the difference between active and passive shallowing. There is some good stuff in this course but getting into a good position at the top with a good grip to wrist match up will benefit a lot of people more than trying to have this much action in the downswing. Quiet hands and letting the body work is a real thing.

 

 

I think you're in the wrong thread, bud. 

[stephenmatt]

Just now, TheDeanAbides said:

I think you're in the wrong thread, bud. 

Definitely not, just expressing what it made me think of.

[stephenmatt]

6 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

I'll give you that...people can interpret things way off.  You can watch the same video over and over and lose sight of what the big picture is about.  Yes, there is something to be said about grip matchups, but start with grip first because someone can be out of an acceptable window for most, but for themselves they make it work, and then they try a different wrist movement, and it all goes to hell.  But it is not because the drill was wrong, it is because their grip was wrong to begin with.

 

You can master NTC all day long, be a NTC savant, but align yourself wrong, for example left, and ball will go left.  You can even do something as subtle as have ball position at address be off by less than two inches...NTC is not going to solve that issue.

 

But that is not what NTC is about.  Re-watch the first videos going over the main issue it fixes on the backswing, and you will see it clearly tells people to skip to downswing if you don't have these problems, and the focus is now on the subtle but important "cast like" moves you make to get clubface squared up correctly.

 

 

I will go back and watch over it again.

[CasualLie]

Overall, even though it has been posted here several times, NTC is by and large a set of positions you need to be in, and a set of drills to help that feel.  It's easy to get caught up in the granularities and fixate on them, but remember, the swing is dynamic.  One of my favorite monte-isms (and yes, other instructors have said similar things), when you get to the "top" of your backswing and make that "first move" down, the ball is gone.  In other words, your brain can tell your body whatever it wants, but no way there is enough time to adjust.  

 

Lately, I have seen a lot of posts in this thread about some small intricacies, but I wonder, if some of you are overdoing it in terms of what you are trying to feel or see a result.  Or perhaps fighting those expectations when looking in the wrong place.

 

The hardest thing for me to learn about NTC, or any swing change really, is trust.  Trust the movement, trust the drill, trust the process.  I am seven months into leaning on NTC and at the same time working on pivot/pressure shifts using the AMG guys.  The hardest part to learn was that trust.  Still working on the trust, but it is so much better than 6 months ago.  Just accepting on the range to do a drill with no care as to where the ball goes, just focusing on a feel...tough to do. Just disciplined enough to rehearse 3 times minimum in slow motion for every ball hit on a range...very tough to do and admittedly I am not totally on this, I can't help but hit 2-3 in a row without rehearse.  But I am getting better at it.  I don't hit large buckets ever, and if I am not feeling that disciplined, I don't hit balls, I give them away.  I do a lot more rehearsals at home, a ton more.

 

It's come to the point where I do trust and I am getting the body to react better.  I have picked up better contact, better yardages, 10-15 yards on Driver / 3W...and better accuracy.  My misses are a lot more manageable.  (still have a lot of bad luck in tournaments!  but that is another story).

 

After 6 months of NTC, most important things I am focusing on now are:

1. Do not force the hands to this 8:00 thing while playing.  This is a conscious thought only at half-speed when practicing.  I used to think about this on the course, no more.  

2. That bump at the top to target, whatever you want to call it, but that holding shoulders close just for an instant before moving everything down is so key.  It has been made easier by the pressure work with AMG.  That whole moving off the ball by P2, re-centering between P3-P4 creates the time I need to proper shift.  This also gives me the time to just get the arms/wrist getting down.  Again, no conscious thought, but when practicing there are different thoughts on different days to help ingrain a feel. Sometimes I am thinking of the arrow out of quiver thing with right arm, sometimes it is get hands to right back pocket, sometimes it is that throw to 8:00 feel.  Whatever it is, it is small.

3. This last area is the right feel on using the ground correctly on with the left side.  I am still experimenting here, but this is to me where the power comes from.  Again, just looking for something very small that allows the dynamic swing to follow the right path.  Currently it is this feel of pushing the left foot away/back.

 

But again, must emphasize, it is small motions, working on them slowly, then forgetting about it when playing.  Just trusting the work will show up on the course.  And it is showing up more and more.  And most important holding up under pressure.  Two years ago I was in a match play final at Silverado North.  I was a bit jet lagged, but that's an excuse.  My swing was so much in my head, and I was hanging my a thread in the first 6 holes, then I got down 2 holes and by the turn a basket case. I got thumped 6 and 5.  This past weekend, against a better player in a match.  And I just stuck to my routine and nursed a small lead to the clubhouse for a 1 up win.  The old me would have imploded.  I was 2 up yesterday early, blew a couple of holes to make it even after 10.  Immediately won 11-12 to back to 2 up, blew 13 to be 1 up.  And maintained that 1 up over the last 5 through trust of the process.

 

NTC changed a lot for me, re-explained what I kind of already knew in a much easier to sort fashion.  Add in the AMG stuff, and I am loving golf right now.

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

Like @CasualLiesaid, it’s not a method or swing system.  It’s an alternate perception on doing what elite players do in general.  Some of the drills are exaggeration drills to get you there, but the fact is, elite golfers get their lead wrist flexed at some point of the downswing, regardless of grip.  They UD, it’s just a matter of when.  They extend, it’s just a matter of when.

 

The easiest way, IMO, to get this done, as I show in the video, is to hinge and be neutral to slightly cuped, then UD and flex immediately as an intent to give your body more time to react as the wrists are not the only motion putting force on the COM of the club.  Then understand the wrist is supposed to begin to extend before impact as a reaction to other things.

 

The whole concept is a counter to the float load, wide to narrow, hold lag and force and hold flexion into impact.....which doesn’t work for the overwhelming majority of golfers and you can count on one hand how many elite golfers do that.

[sthompson42]

“The whole concept is a counter to the float load, wide to narrow, hold lag and force and hold flexion into impact...”

 

How many recreational golfers have these goals ruined over the years? Tons. Me for one. 
 

The NTC video drills are excellent to get the feel and sequence down.  If you commit and accept the advice, it can change your ball striking.  If you fight it with your own thoughts, it will spell trouble. 

[stephenmatt]

@MonteScheinblum@CasualLie Nice explanations, I see it from your side better now! Thank you!

[Tree Levino]

37 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Like @CasualLiesaid, it’s not a method or swing system.  It’s an alternate perception on doing what elite players do in general.  Some of the drills are exaggeration drills to get you there, but the fact is, elite golfers get their lead wrist flexed at some point of the downswing, regardless of grip.  They UD, it’s just a matter of when.  They extend, it’s just a matter of when.

 

The easiest way, IMO, to get this done, as I show in the video, is to hinge and be neutral to slightly cuped, then UD and flex immediately as an intent to give your body more time to react as the wrists are not the only motion putting force on the COM of the club.  Then understand the wrist is supposed to begin to extend before impact as a reaction to other things.

 

The whole concept is a counter to the float load, wide to narrow, hold lag and force and hold flexion into impact.....which doesn’t work for the overwhelming majority of golfers and you can count on one hand how many elite golfers do that.

 

Agreed. I just bought this morning and am really enjoying so far. For some reason UD feels very natural when say, swinging a baseball bat but has never been natural to me in the golf swing. I'm honestly kind of amazed that I've been able to shoot mid 60s with what my swing looks like. It's certainly most of the things this series is trying to help. I can feel that UD is forcing my body to do different things and make space. The tough part is effectively getting this engrained in full swings - particularly with driver. 

 

I often see Larry Cheung preaching a similar thing and to be honest is always looked very off and weird to me. That said, after a couple of years of working with Larry, Matt from TXG has an amazingly neutral golf swing (though, he has lost some power). 

 

Whether "artificial" shallowing or not, this is the only movement I've ever found that has been me the visual shallowing that I desire. 

 

 

[ColoradoMike]

17 minutes ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

 

Agreed. I just bought this morning and am really enjoying so far. For some reason UD feels very natural when say, swinging a baseball bat but has never been natural to me in the golf swing. I'm honestly kind of amazed that I've been able to shoot mid 60s with what my swing looks like. It's certainly most of the things this series is trying to help. I can feel that UD is forcing my body to do different things and make space. The tough part is effectively getting this engrained in full swings - particularly with driver. 

 

I often see Larry Cheung preaching a similar thing and to be honest is always looked very off and weird to me. That said, after a couple of years of working with Larry, Matt from TXG has an amazingly neutral golf swing (though, he has lost some power). 

 

Whether "artificial" shallowing or not, this is the only movement I've ever found that has been me the visual shallowing that I desire. 

 

 

Here's my take....any good golfer (which you obviously are) will be able to identify the flaw which is causing your issues from learning the NTC. Monte is pointing out the moves which all good players have in common. If you're like me, I was able to identify my issue was backswing (which I've always struggled with) which was extenuating over rotation. I don't struggle with an OTT move and my UD is good. You'll probably find something similar. I've also noticed a lot of golf porn now teaching these moves....kinda coincidental, I think not. Monte was ahead of the curve, this is good stuff. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by ColoradoMike

[TheDeanAbides]

36 minutes ago, sthompson42 said:

“The whole concept is a counter to the float load, wide to narrow, hold lag and force and hold flexion into impact...”

 

How many recreational golfers have these goals ruined over the years? Tons. Me for one. 
 

The NTC video drills are excellent to get the feel and sequence down.  If you commit and accept the advice, it can change your ball striking.  If you fight it with your own thoughts, it will spell trouble. 

For sure. I was saying earlier  to @MonteScheinblumin Instagram chat that I have no idea how I managed to play okay golf with these ideas in my head. 

[PracticeSwinger]

I guess the biggest misconception NTC gets is the counter-intuitive aspect of : "I get to the top and you basically want me to do a move that sends the clubhead: farther, higher and deeper than where it it suppose to go at impact - I want to swing at the ball as fast as I can like I see these guys do on the Tour - and I definitely don't see them doing that!"... well, yeah, they do - it's just not in isolation and the other moving parts make it seem otherwise

 

[MonteScheinblum]

12 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

I guess the biggest misconception NTC gets is the counter-intuitive aspect of : "I get to the top and you basically want me to do a move that sends the clubhead: farther, higher and deeper than where it it suppose to go at impact - I want to swing at the ball as fast as I can like I see these guys do on the Tour - and I definitely don't see them doing that!"... well, yeah, they do - it's just not in isolation and the other moving parts make it seem otherwise

 

Well said

[TheDeanAbides]

3 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Well said

Yes, like we were saying earlier: it's completely counter-intuitive and a massive headf%&k. Maybe Ben Hogan was onto something when he suggested reversing every natural intention. 

[MonteScheinblum]

16 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Yes, like we were saying earlier: it's completely counter-intuitive and a massive headf%&k. Maybe Ben Hogan was onto something when he suggested reversing every natural intention. 

 

16 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Yes, like we were saying earlier: it's completely counter-intuitive and a massive headf%&k. Maybe Ben Hogan was onto something when he suggested reversing every natural intention. 

Intellectually, it’s quite simple.

 

1.  The downswing takes approximately .20 seconds.  A conscious motor function takes about .25 seconds.  So the entire downswing is a reaction, like flinching and blinking in reaction to someone throwing something at your face or trying to hit you.

 

2.  Simple Newtonian physics.  For every action, there is an equal, but opposite reaction.  e.g. Ground REACTION Force.

 

3.  That’s why anything you want happening on the downswing needs to be opposite....cast to sustain lag, keep body closed longer so it opens up more, push down and forward, so your body pushes up and back.  

 

4.  Since the dawn of man, people have been trying to create reaction movements directly and actively in the downswing.  That’s why everyone struggles, but those putting in ridiculous time and those with world class reaction reflexes.

 

This is why nearly all of my instruction is about setup, backswing and transition intent.

 

I will delve into what supposed to happen after that to help measure progress and I will discuss feels to help understand, but after transition, only an external focus is likely to work.

Edited March 1, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

 

Intellectually, it’s quite simple.

 

1.  The downswing takes approximately .20 seconds.  A conscious motor function takes about .25 seconds.  So the entire downswing is a reaction, like flinching and blinking in reaction to someone throwing something at your face or trying to hit you.

 

2.  Simple Newtonian physics.  For every action, there is an equal, but opposite reaction.  e.g. Ground REACTION Force.

 

3.  That’s why anything you want happening on the downswing needs to be opposite....cast to sustain lag, keep body closed longer so it opens up more, push down and forward, so your body pushes up and back.  

 

4.  Since the dawn of man, people have been trying to create reaction movements directly and actively in the downswing.  That’s why everyone struggles, but those putting in ridiculous time and those with world class reaction reflexes.

 

This is why nearly all of my instruction is about setup, backswing and transition intent.

 

I will delve into what supposed to happen after that to help measure progress and I will discuss feels to help understand, but after transition, only an external focus is likely to work.

Number 3 has just set fire to my neural pathways. That makes so much sense. Thank you. 

[CasualLie]

@MonteScheinblum

 

Keeping the list in mind, especially #1/#3, the lag move #2, what drives that as a "reaction"?

 

I've been wanting to make sure I get my hands closer to my right leg so I can just turn fast.  So I like that pump drill to get hands in place, then turn, but do the drill at low speed.  The idea just training the move slowly and let it all happen at speed without thought.

 

But what can I do earlier to get that second lag move to just happen?  Perhaps it is not even an issue.  As you said, all reaction?  Get the backswing right, pressure right, transition right, and hands will end up where they are supposed to be at P6, and hands will have to do what they need to in order to hit the ball, which is correct.

 

 

[golfsticks]

12 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Number 3 has just set fire to my neural pathways. That makes so much sense. Thank you. 

 

Or, as Claude Harmon and Ben Hogan would say:   Get in the way so you can get out of the way.  There is not much new in golf swing dynamic potential,  just bigger heads, hotter balls, and different stories.

[MonteScheinblum]

41 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

@MonteScheinblum

 

Keeping the list in mind, especially #1/#3, the lag move #2, what drives that as a "reaction"?

 

I've been wanting to make sure I get my hands closer to my right leg so I can just turn fast.  So I like that pump drill to get hands in place, then turn, but do the drill at low speed.  The idea just training the move slowly and let it all happen at speed without thought.

 

But what can I do earlier to get that second lag move to just happen?  Perhaps it is not even an issue.  As you said, all reaction?  Get the backswing right, pressure right, transition right, and hands will end up where they are supposed to be at P6, and hands will have to do what they need to in order to hit the ball, which is correct.

 

 

Be aware of what’s right, but it’s a reaction

[stephenmatt]

4 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The whole concept is a counter to the float load, wide to narrow, hold lag and force and hold flexion into impact.....which doesn’t work for the overwhelming majority of golfers and you can count on one hand how many elite golfers do that.

 

Can you elaborate on the concept of countering the "float load" a little bit more in depth? Anyone is free to answer this for me if they know what he means. Thanks!

[TLUBulldogGolf]

3 minutes ago, stephenmatt said:

 

Can you elaborate on the concept of countering the "float load" a little bit more in depth? Anyone is free to answer this for me if they know what he means. Thanks!

 

I think Gary Woodland is the most obvious example, where it appears he is letting the club float and adding wrist hinge as he starts down. 

[CasualLie]

1 hour ago, golfsticks said:

 

Or, as Claude Harmon and Ben Hogan would say:   Get in the way so you can get out of the way.  There is not much new in golf swing dynamic potential,  just bigger heads, hotter balls, and different stories.

 

I would say thanks to the internet, A LOT more stories.  Most bad, and a few gems..a few great instructors who have done a lot to communicate effectively what is "not much new".

 

Still, the "new", most importantly comes from all the 3D capture and sensors.  It's the much needed data points to help explain the "not much new", and just as important help dispel myths.