Should I be playing from the White tees? I prefer Blue tees. What do you guys play?

[vandyfan]

7 hours ago, Gsea said:

except from the very forward tees (jr/ladies) thats the distance on our front tees. time for a new course.

 

It is a short muni course for sure. Even as a par 70 most of the par 4s are pretty short. I mostly play it because it is in good shape and is very close to my house (I have two kids under the age of 3). Again, I have never broken par there so I can't say that I have outgrown this course.

[nsxguy]

On 12/30/2021 at 10:26 PM, Nard_S said:

I find the whole course length thing to be misleading too. A hilly, tight 5500 yarder is tougher than a 6800-yard cow pasture. All day.

 

Sounds like you've played Douglaston.

[nsxguy]

[Nard_S]

43 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sounds like you've played Douglaston.

A course in my town sits on city's highest elevation. It's a short goat track. It's flat out hard. 

[nsxguy]

5 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

A course in my town sits on city's highest elevation. It's a short goat track. It's flat out hard. 

 

So that's a "yes" then ?

 

Not quite as short as most think. Total ~5500 yards, but par is only 67 so, the length divided by "full" shots come to about 6400 for a par 72. Not the 7000 yards for the big boys but still fairly substantial for the average guys.

 

As many as 7 blind shots to greens, a few long-ish carries if the wind's against and small greens. And enough place to get into trouble as well. Kinda sorta underrated as a test.

 

But familiarity breeds contempt and although the course was in terrible shape at one time, for the last 25 years or so has been in relatively decent shape given all the play it gets.

 

And of course the more one plays a track the "easier" it gets. 🙃

[Nard_S]

11 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

As many as 7 blind shots to greens, a few long-ish carries if the wind's against and small greens. And enough place to get into trouble as well. Kinda sorta underrated as a test.

Very similar, 5500 par 70. Slopes, funky lies, wind and trees. Tiny greens. Played as guest and several Monday better ball events. I like it, but a place with wider fairways accepting bigger tee shots is much easier.

 

 

[mshills]

On 1/1/2022 at 12:18 PM, Nard_S said:

To me the crux of slow play is what goes or what does not go on between shots. 

So true. Two principles would solve the majority of slow play issues:

 

1. Have some situational awareness.  
2. When it is time to play, be ready to play. 
 

No need to be rude, to run, to play speed golf, fail to hole out, to shoot 72, none of those things are necessary.  

[vandyfan]

49 minutes ago, mshills said:

to run, to play speed golf,

 

A little hustle would be nice, however. I have sat behind a ton of people who will hit a (often bad) shot, stare at in disbelief, gesticulate, then slowly saunter back to their cart, slam the club in the bag, look again, and FINALLY, drive off. There is a lot of attention paid to the whole "how much time do you take to hit a shot" but I would be down for a "total time" which is the time it takes a person to hit their shot and GTFO of the way so that the group behind can hit. If a group is waiting behind me I play at my normal pace but at least try to hurry where it won't affect my game, walking faster between shots, getting off the green, etc. 

[vandyfan]

Because I continue to obsess over this topic, I decided to do some quick math on this whole "distance" deciding tees and comparing what club Tour players usually have into a par 4 as a second shot. To me this is important because the majority of holes on the golf course are par 4s so this seemed instructive to me. For the 2020-2021 PGA Tour season, there were 196 players on the driving distance board and, guess what, 196/2 = 98 and that happened to be our fallen (slowly recovering) spokesmodel (and sometimes golfer) Rickie Fowler! He averaged 296.2 yds off the tee which is still quite hefty but bang average on tour. Anyway, I went to the shot tracker for a course that Rickie would be comfortable on (not cherry picking, just thinking what course do I associate with Rickie that is not overly tight or wonky) and I decided on TPC Scottsdale (Waste Management). Rickie missed the cut here but I took his first round and tried to apply it to my game. Anyways, I took a look at the shot tracker and noticed the following:

 

1. His average distance left into a par 4 green in regulation was 140 yds (I would guess this is a PW for Rick) -- (average par 4 distance at TPC scottsdale is 442 but many of the holes dogleg)

2. Average distance left into a par 5 green in under regulation (2 shots) was 246 yds

3. He reached 2 out of the 3 par 5 greens off his drive and was only 10 yds short of the green on the 3rd (average Par 5 distance was 562 yds)

4. His average tee shot distance on par 4s and 5s was 305 yds

 

So, again, this is how we are testing the best players in the world on a standard tour event. It makes sense that his average distance left into a par 4 is 140 because 442 (avg length) - 305 (avg tee shot) = 137 yds. So ask yourself next time you are playing golf ask yourself do I, on average, have a PW into the par 4s? If you have more than that (ON AVERAGE)...you are asking more of yourself than the tour asks of the best players in the world. Which is fine...but also a bit insane to me.

 

For me, a smooth PW is 125 yds so I should have an average of 125 left on most holes based on an average strike with my driver which is probably 250-260. So that would be 250+125 = 375. Take 10 (standard number of par 4s) * 375 = 3,750. 

 

Rickie reached over half of the par 5s in regulation. For me to have a chance at that it is going to be driver (250) + best 4w strike (235) = 485. So let's say 500 yds average * 4 = 2,000.

 

Finally, the par 3s. Average par 3 at TPC scottsdale was 175 which I would guess is a 7i for Rick. For me that would be 155. So 155*4 = 620.

 

Total => 620 + 2,000 + 3,750 = 6,370 is the absolute MAX I would think I should play. Again, this is how we test the best so I would think 6,000 - 6,200 should be just fine for me. 

[klebs01]

3 hours ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

Because I continue to obsess over this topic, I decided to do some quick math on this whole "distance" deciding tees and comparing what club Tour players usually have into a par 4 as a second shot. To me this is important because the majority of holes on the golf course are par 4s so this seemed instructive to me. For the 2020-2021 PGA Tour season, there were 196 players on the driving distance board and, guess what, 196/2 = 98 and that happened to be our fallen (slowly recovering) spokesmodel (and sometimes golfer) Rickie Fowler! He averaged 296.2 yds off the tee which is still quite hefty but bang average on tour. Anyway, I went to the shot tracker for a course that Rickie would be comfortable on (not cherry picking, just thinking what course do I associate with Rickie that is not overly tight or wonky) and I decided on TPC Scottsdale (Waste Management). Rickie missed the cut here but I took his first round and tried to apply it to my game. Anyways, I took a look at the shot tracker and noticed the following:

 

1. His average distance left into a par 4 green in regulation was 140 yds (I would guess this is a PW for Rick) -- (average par 4 distance at TPC scottsdale is 442 but many of the holes dogleg)

2. Average distance left into a par 5 green in under regulation (2 shots) was 246 yds

3. He reached 2 out of the 3 par 5 greens off his drive and was only 10 yds short of the green on the 3rd (average Par 5 distance was 562 yds)

4. His average tee shot distance on par 4s and 5s was 305 yds

 

So, again, this is how we are testing the best players in the world on a standard tour event. It makes sense that his average distance left into a par 4 is 140 because 442 (avg length) - 305 (avg tee shot) = 137 yds. So ask yourself next time you are playing golf ask yourself do I, on average, have a PW into the par 4s? If you have more than that (ON AVERAGE)...you are asking more of yourself than the tour asks of the best players in the world. Which is fine...but also a bit insane to me.

 

For me, a smooth PW is 125 yds so I should have an average of 125 left on most holes based on an average strike with my driver which is probably 250-260. So that would be 250+125 = 375. Take 10 (standard number of par 4s) * 375 = 3,750. 

 

Rickie reached over half of the par 5s in regulation. For me to have a chance at that it is going to be driver (250) + best 4w strike (235) = 485. So let's say 500 yds average * 4 = 2,000.

 

Finally, the par 3s. Average par 3 at TPC scottsdale was 175 which I would guess is a 7i for Rick. For me that would be 155. So 155*4 = 620.

 

Total => 620 + 2,000 + 3,750 = 6,370 is the absolute MAX I would think I should play. Again, this is how we test the best so I would think 6,000 - 6,200 should be just fine for me. 

is your 5 iron around 176? Could just do 5i*36 and arrived at the same answer. 

[vandyfan]

16 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

is your 5 iron around 176? Could just do 5i*36 and arrived at the same answer. 

 

That is not nearly as fun! My 5 iron is about 180. But, again, that is like the ceiling to me...not the default. It really just gives me more ammo/reasoning for playing 6,200ish. Again, I know this seems exhausting to some (most?) people but I also always look at a golf course on Google Earth Pro and look at landing areas and such because, as we all know, 6,200 yds can play a lot differently due to relative width, elevation changes, hazards, etc. 

[vandyfan]

Another thing you can do, that can be fun, is play a Hybrid set of tees. I do this at True Blue (in Pawley's Island) since they have a fairly large gap between the Black (5,736) and White (6,375) tees. Of course, since True Blue does not offer a hybrid set, this tee box is unrated but it's also vacation for me so who really cares? I usually skew towards the white tees on most holes to get the distance up to around 6,100 yds. I cherry pick a few holes that will make it more fun (like the par 5 10th that plays 559 from the whites is only 476 from the Black so that gives me a chance to go for it) from the closer tees (see below...now that is a fun line to take!)

If I play it from back on the White tees, it becomes a much more standard 3 shot par 5 (ho hum):

 

As always, this is probably only fun for me but I think, especially for a vacation round, you should have fun where possible!

 

[Argonne69]

Many here know that I'm a firm believer in hybrid tees. There's no reason for a course to have 500 to 600 yds between tee boxes when a hydrid tee set is only a scorecard change. I play a ton of self created combos. The USGA handicap manual has a chart for calculating the rating and slope for an unrated tee set. 'No big deal. 

 

I played another one today in Bradenton, FL. The Preserve GC. The black tees were 6500 yds. At sea level its just too much. The silver tees were 6005 yds. Too short. I played a black/silver combo at ~6250. 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Argonne69

[vandyfan]

1 hour ago, Argonne69 said:

The USGA handicap manual has a chart for calculating the rating and slope for an unrated tee set. 'No big deal. 

 

I had never seen that before but I came across this, is this akin to what you are referencing? Learn something new everyday, thanks @Argonne69

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by blackbdmillsaps
REMOVED OUTDATED CHART

[Argonne69]

2 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

I had never seen that before but I came across this, is this akin to what you are referencing? Learn something new everyday, thanks @Argonne69

 

 

Yup. That's it. 

 

[chisag]

13 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

Many here know that I'm a firm believer in hybrid tees. There's no reason for a course to have 500 to 600 yds between tee boxes when a hydrid tee set is only a scorecard change. I play a ton of self created combos. The USGA handicap manual has a chart for calculating the rating and slope for an unrated tee set. 'No big deal. 

 

... I honestly don't know why more people refuse to take advantage of hybrid tees. I like to use all the clubs in my bag when possible and enjoy the challenge of hitting a 4 iron or hybrid into a par 4. ONCE or at most twice a round. The two toughest par 4's at my course can be anything from a hybrid to a 7 iron but more often than not a 4 or 5 iron. One of the par 3's also call for a 4 or 5 iron but it can be as short as a 7 iron. Lots of medium to short holes so I get to use most of the irons in my bag. But a less skilled player will really suffer on those holes and moving up a tee box on the 4 really long holes means they at least have a chance of reaching in 2. Most high index players do not need to be hitting hybrids or fairway woods into almost all the par 4's. He!! they should move up for all the holes but at least playing hybrid tees for the long ones would make their rounds more enjoyable. 

[ThinkingPlus]

30 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

I had never seen that before but I came across this, is this akin to what you are referencing? Learn something new everyday, thanks @Argonne69

 

That chart is out of date and can no longer be used for posting scores.  New chart restricts you to a difference relative to a rated set of tees of between 100 yards and 300 yards.  Less than 100 yards you get no compensation.  If greater than 300 yards, you can't post.  Send all complaints to the RBs.

[vandyfan]

@ThinkingPlus You are, of course, correct! It is Appendix G under the Rules of Handicapping. Thanks to both of you!

[Argonne69]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That chart is out of date and can no longer be used for posting scores.  New chart restricts you to a difference relative to a rated set of tees of between 100 yards and 300 yards.  Less than 100 yards you get no compensation.  If greater than 300 yards, you can't post.  Send all complaints to the RBs.

 

Is that 300 yds max between the two rated tee sets, or 300 yds max between the shorter tees and the combo tees? There was 500 yds difference between the tees I played today (silver and black), but my combo set was ~250 yds more than the (shorter) silver tees.

 

I don't recall seeing two sets of tees more than 600 yds apart, so splitting the difference generally results in less than 300 yds of additional length from the shorter (rated) teebox.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Argonne69

[vandyfan]

Trying to create a hybrid routing at my local and I noticed what is likely a common problem. The scorecard has different ratings than GHIN. I would assume GHIN is correct and that the scorecards just haven't been updated since the course was last rated. So I am defaulting to the GHIN.com ratings for the course to do my hybrid routing that will get me to a 70.0 rating approximately 6,200 yds. 

 

I assume this is a common problem, especially at munis?

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Is that 300 yds max between the two rated tee sets, or 300 yds max between the shorter tees and the combo tees? There was 500 yds difference between the tees I played today (silver and black), but my combo set was ~250 yds more than the (shorter) silver tees.

 

I don't recall seeing two sets of tees more than 600 yds apart, so splitting the difference generally results in less than 300 yds of additional length from the shorter (rated) teebox.

 

It's 300 yards max delta to the nearest rated tees for gender.

[ThinkingPlus]

27 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

Trying to create a hybrid routing at my local and I noticed what is likely a common problem. The scorecard has different ratings than GHIN. I would assume GHIN is correct and that the scorecards just haven't been updated since the course was last rated. So I am defaulting to the GHIN.com ratings for the course to do my hybrid routing that will get me to a 70.0 rating approximately 6,200 yds. 

 

I assume this is a common problem, especially at munis?

It happens everywhere and more often than you would like to see.  GHIN/USGA database is truth in this case as you surmised.

[dugue4]

Anyone have a link to the new chart?

[rogolf]

38 minutes ago, dugue4 said:

Anyone have a link to the new chart?

Start here....

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

[davep043]

12 hours ago, rogolf said:

Start here....

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

And a reminder to please read the words, along with using the chart.  This appears just above the chart:

Quote

If approved by the Authorized Association, the issuance of a temporary Course Rating and Slope Rating is determined by the Handicap Committee and/or the Authorized Association following the procedure set out below:

This chart is intended to be used to develop ratings when temporary changes are made.  This is NOT intended to allow each and every one of us to come up with our own set of preferred tees.  The Handicap Committee at your home club doesn't want to see 12 different sets of CD and Slope used by players on that course in a single day.  I DO suggest you ask your home club to develop a set of hybrid ratings, its pretty simply done with a phone call or email to your state or regional association.  Par and Bogey Ratings for each set of tees on each hole are retained, and they can be combined in any combination your club asks to have done.  If you're travelling, ask at the pro shop if there are hybrid tee ratings, they don't always make it onto the primary scorecard.