Should I be playing from the White tees? I prefer Blue tees. What do you guys play?

[rogolf]

I think the color of the tees is irrelevant.  Our course originally had four sets of tees. as follows,

Gold 7007 yards

Blue 6750 yards

White 6350 yards

Red 5496 yards

 

After many years of experience, and an aging membership, we decided not to put out the gold tee markers mainly because too many egomaniacs were playing them and slowing down play (we did leave the permanent yardage markers in place - some good players continue to play from those markers).  We added a set of silver tees, so it's now like this,

Blue 6750 yards

White 6350 yards

Silver 6007 yards

Red 5496 yards

 

Imo, it was a very good decision, but we made a psychological error in the order of the tee colors.  We should have moved the white tees up to the 6007 yards (now silver) and put the silver tee markers at 6350 yards.  It's amazing how many players just gravitate to white without considering the yardage.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by rogolf

[vandyfan]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

You look like a dingus moving up to drive the par 5 in two so you can "look like a pro". 

 

The amount of times I have seen someone playing the course too short vs too long is probably like 1:100. I don't play the course from 6200 - 6500 yds because I want to "look like a pro." I'm a 4-5 hdcp, no one is ever going to confuse me for a high level player. I am, in my opinion, playing the tees that match my skill level. And guess what? For the most part, the par 5s at those yardages are still like 520-550 yds...which is still unreachable. 

 

I actually cannot believe anyone would support or defend someone shooting over 90 from the tips, @Nard_S. That person is delusional. The tips are a privilege...not a right 😃

 

[Nard_S]

1 minute ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

I actually cannot believe anyone would support or defend someone shooting over 90 from the tips, @Nard_S. That person is delusional. The tips are a privilege...not a right 😃

My "tips" are 6400 which is quite average for my neck of woods. So maybe it's just perspective. An 80 on whites equates to an 84 on blues so getting all look down your nose about score is somewhat nonsense. And yes I can reach em in two.

[vandyfan]

That is even below average for length, in my opinion. Nothing wrong with that. I think the tips at the 5 courses I regularly play are like 7100, 6980, 6900, 6800 and 6750. I would bet most tipped out, par 72 golf courses average around 6700+. 

 

 

[Nard_S]

 

Just now, blackbdmillsaps said:

That is even below average for length, in my opinion. Nothing wrong with that. I think the tips at the 5 courses I regularly play are like 7100, 6980, 6900, 6800 and 6750. I would bet most tipped out, par 72 golf courses average around 6700+. 

 

 

Not in my county. Greater NYC.

[sui generis]

1 minute ago, Nard_S said:

 

Not in my county. Greater NYC.

 

Amazing! This only took 6 pages to turn into a Johnson Contest. 🙄

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Amazing! This only took 6 pages to turn into a Johnson Contest. 🙄

I find the whole course length thing to be misleading too. A hilly, tight 5500 yarder is tougher than a 6800-yard cow pasture. All day.

[Argonne69]

8 hours ago, Nard_S said:

I find the whole course length thing to be misleading too. A hilly, tight 5500 yarder is tougher than a 6800-yard cow pasture. All day.

 

Which is why the rule of thumb is just a suggested starting point. Look at the rating. Look at the slope. Look at the course conditions. Look at the weather. Look at the altitude. Adjust accordingly.

 

I've been playing at sea level for the past few weeks, and I still can't get my head around the fact that the ball travels so little. Add wet, overseeded fairways and drives go nowhere. My normal 6400 yd tees have been replaced by 6200 yd ones, and I'm still hitting a lot of hybrids approaches.

 

[DaveLeeNC]

8 hours ago, Nard_S said:

I find the whole course length thing to be misleading too. A hilly, tight 5500 yarder is tougher than a 6800-yard cow pasture. All day.

 

For lots of golfers that is true. Then there are the 80 year old guys who used to carry legit mid single digit handicaps and now can't hit a driver more than 170 in the air - very different story for them. 

 

dave

[denkea]

10 hours ago, Nard_S said:

I find the whole course length thing to be misleading too. A hilly, tight 5500 yarder is tougher than a 6800-yard cow pasture. All day.

Agreed.  That's why I always take into consideration the slope and course ratings from the various tees.  

[vandyfan]

11 hours ago, Nard_S said:

I find the whole course length thing to be misleading too. A hilly, tight 5500 yarder is tougher than a 6800-yard cow pasture. All day

 

Yes, exactly! I think you are actually undermining your own earlier points on using that ridiculous 5i * 36 metric. No one would disagree that Harbour Town at 6800 yds is tougher than a standard city course at 7000 yds. 

[Nard_S]

7 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

undermining your own earlier points on using that ridiculous 5i * 36 metric.

It's an industry standard that was used for decades. What's ridiculous is we have a much better ball, a driver that's 250% bigger, shafts that are 40% lighter, playing on the exact same courses and scoring for all but maybe a few percent is stagnant, but we all need to "tee it forward", because "we are playing too far back".

 

So now it's not how far they hit it, now it's 'if you don't break 85, have no business going off back'. What? Average guy shoots 90 everywhere, if he's long enough and keeps pace, who gives a rat's rump where he hits from. I play faster from blues walking than my buds do from whites carting. Score better too. Know why? I can finish a hole in 3, they cannot.  But it's the tee box. It's even floated here that par 5's should be shortened so mini me drivers can reach par 5's in two the way big boys do. Boy, that will really solve pace of play issues.

[vandyfan]

23 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Average guy shoots 90 everywhere, if he's long enough and keeps pace, who gives a rat's rump where he hits from.

 

Is that actually true? In my experience, since I practice what I preach, every year I start at the forward tees for my first round of the year and have to shoot +5 or better to move back. Last year, I shot 67 from the front tees (4900 yds, par 70). Then from the yellow tees (5300 yds) shot 69. Moved to the next tees (5900 yds) Shot 71. Finally got to the next set where I spent the rest of the year (6250) and shot scores ranging from 72-80. 

 

Am I bragging? No, there are scores of people on this board that would destroy me at golf and, as always NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU SHOT. Am I trying to look like a pro? Certainly not. In fact, it is a bit annoying and awkward to explain to the random people I am paired up with why I am playing from the front. What I demonstrated to myself and hopefully to you is that tees matter. I would have to play OUT OF MY MIND to shoot 67 from my current tees. So much so that in 15 rounds this year (and in my entire golfing life) from that tee box I have never even sniffed it. But in one try I shot it from the front tees without even really having my best stuff. I understand you are making this point that hackers lose most of their strokes from 50 yds in and that may be true but I imagine these lose a decent amount due to being OB or blocked out in the trees. 

 

Finally, I think people (who don't play very often) would be surprised how much more fun they would have at having birdie putts once in a while. But there is such a stigma at playing anything other than the men's tees that this never happens. That to me is what this whole thread is about. I am obviously passionate about this idea. 

 

EDIT: And furthermore! You don't think that a bogey golfer wouldn't benefit from playing par 3s that average 120 yds vs par 3s that average 190 yds? You don't think that is worth a few strokes? Are you insane? What do you think the dispersion difference is on a GW/PW is vs a 5i/4i? 

Edited December 31, 2021 by blackbdmillsaps

[chisag]

4 hours ago, Argonne69 said:

Which is why the rule of thumb is just a suggested starting point. Look at the rating. Look at the slope. Look at the course conditions. Look at the weather. Look at the altitude. Adjust accordingly.

 

... Well said. I would add use common sense as well. My regular course plays 7089 from the tips, 6403 from the Silver tees and 5953 from the Golds. But that yardage is very deceiving. From the Silver tees (where most play) there are four par 4's that play 410, 439, 430 and 426 and all of them are uphill off the tee making them play much longer. I see the average mid-high index player butcher these holes with regularity. They can't see the green for their second shot and 2 of them have water very much in play. Moving up to the Golds they would play 387, 403, 408 and 403 with at least a chance to see the green and even possibly hit the green with their second shot. 

... What confuses the issue is there are two par 4's that play 277 and 294 as well as a 100yd par 3 so other than these 3 holes, that 6400 really plays more like 6600-6700. If golfers used common sense and moved up they would enjoy the round more or at least just move up on those 4 long uphill holes. I am not talking about good ball strikers or distance challenged low index players that can handle long irons or hybrid/fw woods approaches with water in play, I am talking your average golfer that is playing holes much too long for their talent. 

[MountainKing]

9 hours ago, Nard_S said:

It's an industry standard that was used for decades. What's ridiculous is we have a much better ball, a driver that's 250% bigger, shafts that are 40% lighter, playing on the exact same courses and scoring for all but maybe a few percent is stagnant, but we all need to "tee it forward", because "we are playing too far back".

 

So now it's not how far they hit it, now it's 'if you don't break 85, have no business going off back'. What? Average guy shoots 90 everywhere, if he's long enough and keeps pace, who gives a rat's rump where he hits from. I play faster from blues walking than my buds do from whites carting. Score better too. Know why? I can finish a hole in 3, they cannot.  But it's the tee box. It's even floated here that par 5's should be shortened so mini me drivers can reach par 5's in two the way big boys do. Boy, that will really solve pace of play issues.

Most guys who shoot 90 aren't long enough to play back.  The problem tho, is 80% of those who shoot 90 somehow think their 220 yard drive is 300 yards.  If you're poking out there 220 or less, and playing a course that's 6500 or longer, you're kidding everybody and yourself that you're able to keep pace.  On average you're taking 1 extra shot per hole, not including the re-tees because you think you can get over that 250 yard forced carry.  

 

Almost every golfer I've been paired up with in the last 5 years, should be playing from the forward tees 

[Nard_S]

2 hours ago, MountainKing said:

Most guys who shoot 90 aren't long enough to play back. 

So, the long & wrong guy is a myth? 👌

[Nard_S]

3 hours ago, MountainKing said:

The problem tho, is 80% of those who shoot 90 somehow think their 220 yard drive is 300 yards

 GPS has been around for years, nobody is saying ''dude that's 300 with a #4i''

Cart, phone, watch & laser are everywhere. Get real.

[Nard_S]

3 hours ago, MountainKing said:

If you're poking out there 220 or less, and playing a course that's 6500 or longer, you're kidding everybody and yourself that you're able to keep pace.

I'm 220 or less with a #3I. I have to use it more than driver on my 6400 puny muni.

[sandpounder]

It has been fun seeing what everyone thinks of mid-high HCPS playing tees that are not for them.  I really do not care what others do as long as they follow proper etiquette, do not throw fits or play slow.  It is their money & their choice what tees they decide to play.

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

I'm 220 or less with a #3I. I have to use it more than driver on my 6400 puny muni.

It helps build character. LOL!

[Nard_S]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

It helps build character. LOL!

That & keeps it in the fairway too. 😉

 

[chisag]

1 hour ago, sandpounder said:

I really do not care what others do as long as they follow proper etiquette, do not throw fits or play slow.  It is their money & their choice what tees they decide to play.

 

... How about if they drive their cart into the Texas mud and get it stuck? 

[bladehunter]

On 12/27/2021 at 2:34 PM, Nard_S said:

 When 260 yards is low end, even a bit of miss, not when it's a hero shot. I wrote "260 yard on up"

 

It's been an industry standard for decades. The carry average of a 27-29 degree iron answers tee box choice better than both driving distance or index. They stopped talking about it when the whole "tee it forward" craze came about. That was solely driven on pace of play issue and nothing else. Now it's, "if you can't break 80, don't move back". It's silly & disingenuous. There's low index guys that cannot drive more than 230. Should they be forced to move back? Of course not. Or guy who plays 12X a year, can hit it long, his index is short changed by reps not approach distance. He might shoot lower from forward tee but his index will not drop as easily from there either . There's "hero" guy who can bomb it with big dog but goes fat sally with #8i. A 28* club will reveal truth. It's a better indicator.

Yep. This makes perfect sense.   I’ve seen all of the above.  
 

bottom line.  If you ( not meaning you personally) play fast nobody. I mean nobody will care.  
 

But if you’re the guy who’s taking 4/5 practice swings with divots on each shot.  And then shooting 95 from the back.  You’re not fast. It’s mathematically impossible to say you are.   That’s 380 strokes ( conservatively ) a round somebody in your group or behind you has to endure.  

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

But if you’re the guy who’s taking 4/5 practice swings with divots on each shot.  And then shooting 95 from the back.  You’re not fast

To me the crux of slow play is what goes or what does not go on between shots. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Nard_S

[Gsea]

On 12/31/2021 at 10:26 AM, blackbdmillsaps said:

Finally got to the next set where I spent the rest of the year (6250) and shot scores ranging from 72-80. 

except from the very forward tees (jr/ladies) thats the distance on our front tees. time for a new course.

[sandpounder]

13 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... How about if they drive their cart into the Texas mud and get it stuck? 

Who the hell would be that stupid?  Are you famous?  I think I see you on TV a lot.

[chisag]

22 minutes ago, sandpounder said:

Who the hell would be that stupid?  Are you famous?  I think I see you on TV a lot.

 

 

... You know that old joke "I am not a Doctor but I play one on TV?" LOL, that would be me. 

[MountainKing]

15 hours ago, Nard_S said:

I'm 220 or less with a #3I. I have to use it more than driver on my 6400 puny muni.

 

15 hours ago, Nard_S said:

 GPS has been around for years, nobody is saying ''dude that's 300 with a #4i''

Cart, phone, watch & laser are everywhere. Get real.

 

I guess I assumed we were discussing driver distance. Didn't realize I actually had to specifiy driver length when I said "220 or less", but here we are.  I thought it being driver was pretty obvious based on the threads discussion,I apologize I didn't specify and you're struggling with the concept of "baseline". 

[Nard_S]

3 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

I guess I assumed we were discussing driver distance.

Yeah, duh, was pointing out two things.

 

1) I drive the ball way longer than 220 and

2) Course I play is short by WRX standards but you cannot use a driver more than 5 times.

 

But your nose is getting in the way of seeing that, isn't it?

Edited January 1, 2022 by Nard_S

[MountainKing]

18 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Yeah, duh, was pointing out two things.

 

1) I drive the ball way longer than 220 and

2) Course I play is short by WRX standards but you cannot use a driver more than 5 times.

 

But your nose is getting in the way of seeing that, isn't it?

 

And this has what to do with a short hitter moving up a set of tees?  You're 220 with your 3 iron,  nobody here is going to tell you to move up,  you can play 7000 and be fine. Do you need that much attention that you're looking for it in a thread about moving up a set of tees?  

Edited January 2, 2022 by MountainKing