Back from PXG fitting - learned I need more spin

[hanfrac]

I have been listening to too many posts about "high launch, low spin to maximize distance" and mistakenly assumed I was a medium spin player.  I would not be able to hit clubs like the Callaway Subzero drivers.  Went to a PXG fitting today, hit a couple of balls and the fitter asked "who put you in C Taper Lites?"  I told him I got fitted 18 months ago, but I pushed for them.  He said they are a terrible fit for me, as my 7 iron RPMs were at or below 4000 and he wanted to see 5000-6000 (7 iron speed about 81-82mph).  Similarly, when we got to driver, it was the same and at 98 mph, I was consistently below 2000 rpm spin.  Fitter said I'm on the stiff side of stiff vs. regular.

 

I bought 0211 irons from him with Elevate Tour shafts (stiff, soft-stepped) which should help, but no matter what combo he brought out, we couldn't crack 5000 rpm.  Trying a bunch of driver shafts and heads, same thing.

 

I play a Cobra F8 with Aldlia Rogue Silver 110, which I guess is on the low side of medium spin.  I recently put HZRDUS Smoke shafts (stiff, slightly butt-trimmed) into my 14.5 and 18.5 deg F8 FW woods, which seems like a bad fit for a guy not getting enough spin.

 

I have 2 Aldila NV 2KXV blue shafts in regular.  These seem like more mid-launch shafts, but playing them as regular, I was wild with them.  If I have them tip-trimmed, can I tighten them up while maintaining decent launch/spin?  If I shorten them by, say 3/4" each, would that get me closer to a stiff-regular?  Is this a bad idea?  I would rather not have to buy new FW woods or new shafts.

 

At least now I know I've been going in the wrong direction for about 5 years.

 

 

[Barracuda]

What was your descent angle with your 7 iron? Did he suggested bending your irons weak? 

 

 

[Barracuda]

What was your descent angle with your 7 iron? Did he suggested bending your irons weak? 

 

 

[hanfrac]

45 minutes ago, Barracuda said:

What was your descent angle with your 7 iron? Did he suggested bending your irons weak? 

 

 

I do not know.  I was flying it 160-168 in the air with range balls and average height was 75-80 feet with the occasional high 80's.  Fitter did not suggest bending the clubs weak.

[Matt614]

52 minutes ago, hanfrac said:

I do not know.  I was flying it 160-168 in the air with range balls and average height was 75-80 feet with the occasional high 80's.  Fitter did not suggest bending the clubs weak.

I 100% would not trust a fitting done with range balls. I would get on a monitor with the actual ball you play as it can differ quite a bit from range balls. 

[hanfrac]

8 minutes ago, Matt614 said:

I 100% would not trust a fitting done with range balls. I would get on a monitor with the actual ball you play as it can differ quite a bit from range balls. 

The PXG fitter has been doing fittings in this location for 4 months.  And the range balls at our place are not the worst of the worst, but not ProV1's either.  So I take your point.

 

But what the fitter is saying that across many many fittings of many golfers, including good ones, he was very surprised at how low my spin numbers were reading compared to other players at the same range using the same balls.  So while it's not perfect, I do think the conclusion that my spin rates are very low relative to other golfers holds and that I can try to monkey with my clubs and shafts and maybe the ball to get my spin up.

[Barracuda]

I'm a scratch golfer on the lower spinning side. Loft will usually do more for you than a shaft change. The problem comes with the lower lofted irons, so I go with a 4 hybrid, and 17fw wood.

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

TXG tested range balls.  IIRC the 6 iron spin from a range ball was basically the same as from a good ball.   Wedge spin was much lower, and I think drivers were not too far apart but still enough to matter.

 

that said, I know this is not the point of the  OP.  I am only 90 MPH driver swing speed and have always been low spin too.   You'll probably do better with heads that spin more.  The driver COG reports that are on the competing site which cannot be named can give you some direction.  Based on them I have ended up in an M4 driver and am delighted.  Irons remain a problem for me.  I think part of it is that with a slow speed, I've always wanted irons with the weight down low, for launch.  But that takes away even more spin.   Sigh.   I play spinny balls which can help a little.

 

Here it the range ball test.  Let's try not to take the thread too far in that direction though.

 

[scooterhd2]

Hitting off mats as well?

 

I'd have a hard time being a 4 cap with sub 4k 7 iron spin. 

[hanfrac]

Yes, hitting off mats.  I was swinging it ok as well.  Not sure what I'm doing mechanically to have such low spin, but where the iron/approach game used to be a strength, it has become a weakness.  18 months ago, I bought these Apex Combos with C-Taper Lite and while I thought I loved them, maybe they're holding me back.  The fitter saw me hit a couple and blurted out "who put you in the C Taper Lites?  Those are the wrong shaft for you."

 

Have the 0211 with Elevate Tours soft-stepped coming.  Even with the Elevates or Modus, I couldn't get spin over 5000.

[nitram]

If you took a poll of reputable fitters worldwide they would tell you the majority of the people they analyze need more spin.

[enfuego]

Piggybacking the TXG comment above you should try a high spin ball, they've done a handful of videos on it. Kirkland 3 piece and one of the mizunos would be a good place to start.

[hanfrac]

9 hours ago, Barracuda said:

I'm a scratch golfer on the lower spinning side. Loft will usually do more for you than a shaft change. The problem comes with the lower lofted irons, so I go with a 4 hybrid, and 17fw wood.

 

 

 

Took me a while to process this.  This makes sense.  I use Arccos and have lots of data.  I've learned that I get very little going from 6i to 5i and 5i performance is quite bad.  Similarly, my 5w that is 1" shorter than my 3w goes about the same off a tee and further off the deck.  Maybe I don't have enough spin to get a 5i or 3w in the air consistently.  I'm starting to look at the 3w as a tee club only.  Just bought a 23 deg Mavrik Pro hybrid to replace my 21 deg Rogue to get closer to 4 iron distance.

 

Totally right on choosing the right ball.  I recently decided to stop playing whatever balls were on sale or good ones I found and to stick to one ball for a while.  I picked a lower spin ball - Z Star XV.  I should reconsider and find a higher spinning ball.

[drscott266]

There should be a combo somewhere for you, assuming mechanics aren’t totally to blame. I too fall into the category of people who don’t spin the ball too much, but ended up with an 8* driver that fits me perfectly. Iron wise I hit my T100-S within an optimal launch and spin window but was last told I could a little more height. Weaker iron lifts would have been his swipe at it, but I didn’t see the point since I was hitting mine reasonable enough.  My advice is find a fitter you trust and go with it. I sweated my new TSi 8* head the whole time I was waiting for it, one round in and I am sold on his fit. 

[hanfrac]

I'm going to take my first lesson in 2 years next week to work on mechanics and ball strike.  I think I attack my swing first, then if I can improve, hopefully then get fit for the right other clubs (I'm sort of committed to the 0211s with Elevate Tours, as I placed the order).  

[ebk]

Same problem here.  Went to higher lofted driver and 3 wood.  Fitter said that was the best way to get more launch and more spin.  Seems legit.

[llaw999]

On 11/25/2020 at 4:16 AM, Barracuda said:

I'm a scratch golfer on the lower spinning side. Loft will usually do more for you than a shaft change. The problem comes with the lower lofted irons, so I go with a 4 hybrid, and 17fw wood.

 

 

I agree with the loft comment. I actually gain distance after weakening my iron lofts. 

[hanfrac]

15 hours ago, ebk said:

Same problem here.  Went to higher lofted driver and 3 wood.  Fitter said that was the best way to get more launch and more spin.  Seems legit.

 

I'll try it - I'll increase the lofts using the hosel adjustment (my driver is 10.5 +/- 1.5 and I usually play it at 9.5 - I'll try it at 11.5 today).

 

On irons, is the argument that for a club of a given length with a given weight, being 1-2 deg weaker will make it go further?  I could edit my order with PXG to go a deg weak or so, since I'm going to a more spin-friendly shaft and am soft-stepping, I want to see what those do.

 

Note - overall, I'm still in a bit of disbelief at what the fitter saw/told me.  My ball doesn't look like it has no spin.  I can draw a ball back on a soft green.  No one who has played with me says "your ball seems to get in the air and fall out of the sky."  And I was at a different fitter 2 months ago and he said nothing about needing to drastically increase spin.

[Myherobobhope]

On 11/25/2020 at 5:06 PM, hanfrac said:

 

Took me a while to process this.  This makes sense.  I use Arccos and have lots of data.  I've learned that I get very little going from 6i to 5i and 5i performance is quite bad.  Similarly, my 5w that is 1" shorter than my 3w goes about the same off a tee and further off the deck.  Maybe I don't have enough spin to get a 5i or 3w in the air consistently.  I'm starting to look at the 3w as a tee club only.  Just bought a 23 deg Mavrik Pro hybrid to replace my 21 deg Rogue to get closer to 4 iron distance.

 

Totally right on choosing the right ball.  I recently decided to stop playing whatever balls were on sale or good ones I found and to stick to one ball for a while.  I picked a lower spin ball - Z Star XV.  I should reconsider and find a higher spinning ball.

I’m thinking you can make up Some

ground with better ball selection...  I think the adage is fit the ball to the irons and the driver to the ball... 

[Barracuda]

What launch monitor did they use. If it was trackman, check for italics on the spin numbers. That means the spin is calculated and not read. Gcquad is the best way to get accurate spin numbers.

 

Balls and mats can have an impact on spin as well. You usually get more launch and less spin hitting of mats. The difference between a urethane ball and a two piece hard cover ball is huge. So there are many things to look into...

[bnperrone]

You said you're at 81-82 mph 7-iron swing speed and 98 mph driver speed. Ok. Then you're carrying that 7-iron 160-168? With poor launch/spin characteristics? That doesn't make sense. I know 0211 lofts are pretty solidly jacked, but this all doesn't add up. It kind of sounds to me like the fitter is creating a problem and "solving" it for you. At least the 0211s are cheap as hell right now and the elevate is a stock shaft, but the whole thing seems off. 

 

The other question that comes to mind is, What were you playing before the Callaways with CTLs? Back when your iron play was a strength? That's the first place to be looking for ideas. 

 

Anyway, to answer your original question, you could definitely have those aldila shafts tipped to tighten them up and get them between R and S. There's nobody who can guarantee how you'll respond to that, but if you own them and you aren't using them and they aren't worth anything anyway then at least it's a cheap experiment. 

[hanfrac]

I agree with you.  The more I think about the PXG "fitting," the more I realize it wasn't really a fitting and more of a sales job.  I think he was exaggerating an issue with the goal of selling me some clubs.  I do not believe I could play the way I do with catastrophically low spin.  And I don't think my ball flight looks like it has abnormally low spin.  When I hit a very low spin driver head, like my old Bridgestone J33R or the Subzeros, I see my ball not get airborne.  Given all that, I do hope that the Elevate Tours are a better fit for me than the C Taper Lite's.

 

I don't think the C Taper Lite's are responsible for my current woes, as I got down to my all-time low index within the past few months.  I'm swinging badly and have lost my mechanics.  I do believe, however, that I've been making bad shaft decisions on my own, without the help of a good fitter, trying to bring down spin when maybe I need more spin.  I've had success with Nippon NS1150's and NS1050's in the past.  Putting HZRDUS Smokes in my fairways may not be helping me.

[pktaske]

So what exactly is your problem on the golf course that you're trying to solve with dumping additional cash into new clubs? I'm 100% serious because I want to understand the law of diminishing returns as it applies to irons. Assuming you're already a decent player, what is it you're going for? 5 feet less dispersion? 10? Distance control? If you have a good drop on your flighted shots and your balls spinning back on the green, is there something else to worry about?

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by pktaske

[hanfrac]

1 hour ago, pktaske said:

So what exactly is your problem on the golf course that you're trying to solve with dumping additional cash into new clubs? I'm 100% serious because I want to understand the law of diminishing returns as it applies to irons. Assuming you're already a decent player, what is it you're going for? 5 feet less dispersion? 10? Distance control? If you have a good drop on your flighted shots and your balls spinning back on the green, is there something else to worry about?

 

Great question.

 

The problems I'm trying to address:

- iron play seems to be declining, particularly 5-6 iron

- losing distance, hoping for a little help from the clubs

- want something easier to swing - with my current set, feel like I'm making more effort than I want to

 

But the honest answer is this - PXG has made clubs super-cheap and I'm curious to try them over my 1.5 year old Apex combos.  Success would be more solid hits (less low/thin shots), more GIRs, better results with the 5 and 6 iron..

[pktaske]

1 hour ago, hanfrac said:

Great question.

 

The problems I'm trying to address:

- iron play seems to be declining, particularly 5-6 iron

- losing distance, hoping for a little help from the clubs

- want something easier to swing - with my current set, feel like I'm making more effort than I want to

 

But the honest answer is this - PXG has made clubs super-cheap and I'm curious to try them over my 1.5 year old Apex combos.  Success would be more solid hits (less low/thin shots), more GIRs, better results with the 5 and 6 iron..

I just bought a used set of Apex combos. 😕  lol.

[hanfrac]

The Apex are great.  I’m just too cheap to not try the 0211s at $89 per stick. Thinking about dropping some Nippons into the Apex so I can be more confused and spend more money. 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

On 11/30/2020 at 8:55 AM, bnperrone said:

You said you're at 81-82 mph 7-iron swing speed and 98 mph driver speed. Ok. Then you're carrying that 7-iron 160-168? With poor launch/spin characteristics? That doesn't make sense. I know 0211 lofts are pretty solidly jacked, but this all doesn't add up. It kind of sounds to me like the fitter is creating a problem and "solving" it for you. At least the 0211s are cheap as hell right now and the elevate is a stock shaft, but the whole thing seems off. 

 

The other question that comes to mind is, What were you playing before the Callaways with CTLs? Back when your iron play was a strength? That's the first place to be looking for ideas. 

 

Anyway, to answer your original question, you could definitely have those aldila shafts tipped to tighten them up and get them between R and S. There's nobody who can guarantee how you'll respond to that, but if you own them and you aren't using them and they aren't worth anything anyway then at least it's a cheap experiment. 

Agree here, somethng just seems off on those numbers and the results. 

3 hours ago, hanfrac said:

I agree with you.  The more I think about the PXG "fitting," the more I realize it wasn't really a fitting and more of a sales job.  I think he was exaggerating an issue with the goal of selling me some clubs.  I do not believe I could play the way I do with catastrophically low spin.  And I don't think my ball flight looks like it has abnormally low spin.  When I hit a very low spin driver head, like my old Bridgestone J33R or the Subzeros, I see my ball not get airborne.  Given all that, I do hope that the Elevate Tours are a better fit for me than the C Taper Lite's.

 

I don't think the C Taper Lite's are responsible for my current woes, as I got down to my all-time low index within the past few months.  I'm swinging badly and have lost my mechanics.  I do believe, however, that I've been making bad shaft decisions on my own, without the help of a good fitter, trying to bring down spin when maybe I need more spin.  I've had success with Nippon NS1150's and NS1050's in the past.  Putting HZRDUS Smokes in my fairways may not be helping me.

One thing I don't think I've seen asked or covered, if I missed it I'm sorry.

 

As a 4.5 cap, you obviously hit your fair share of greens.  What happens when they hit, are you holding them very well, or getting a lot of rollout causing them to roll off the greens.  You said you don't know your decent angle, but does it feel like the ball is acting like it should when it lands.   

[hanfrac]

1 hour ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

Agree here, somethng just seems off on those numbers and the results. 

One thing I don't think I've seen asked or covered, if I missed it I'm sorry.

 

As a 4.5 cap, you obviously hit your fair share of greens.  What happens when they hit, are you holding them very well, or getting a lot of rollout causing them to roll off the greens.  You said you don't know your decent angle, but does it feel like the ball is acting like it should when it lands.   

 

My ball lands and generally stops within a few feet of the pitch mark.  My home course is pretty soft these days.  I generally don't worry about balls bounding over the green unless a green is particularly hard or there's a hard breeze at my back or I catch a flier.

 

I think if someone watched my shots at the PXG fitting with the 7 iron, they would have said "those seem like nice hits."

[bnperrone]

2 hours ago, hanfrac said:

 

My ball lands and generally stops within a few feet of the pitch mark.  My home course is pretty soft these days.  I generally don't worry about balls bounding over the green unless a green is particularly hard or there's a hard breeze at my back or I catch a flier.

 

I think if someone watched my shots at the PXG fitting with the 7 iron, they would have said "those seem like nice hits."

Yeah, you got sold. It's tough, man. PXG set themselves apart initially by the price point. Part of that was controlling access so that ideal fit was virtually ensured. A perfect fit makes people think the clubs are magic, and they could only get them that way. Fast forward a bunch of years and now they're out there cheap, secondhand, etc. but they still want to keep the magic. So they build up a big "fitting" network. Hell, they make it free to consumers by theoretically paying the fitters. But it isn't the same. I use a top-100 fitter and he has his brand preferences, but I promise you he'll never create a problem to solve or lock into one product if a different one works better. I also pay a la carte for the fitting, so if I want to take the results and acquire them elsewhere there's no hard feelings and everybody has been compensated for their time and expertise. PXG appears to be primarily throwing money at the fitting issue, and the shame is that the two potential losers in that setup are the clients as well as the highly skilled, impartial fitters. 

[hanfrac]

I’m ok.  I wanted to try these and think I got the right stuff because I know enough and did research.  A friend of mine who knows less got sold the wrong shaft at an upcharge, a driver and a hybrid he doesn’t really need.  But he REALLY wanted to buy