Frozen Greens and Posting

[Deceptively Short]

We run 'Qualifying Competitions' (rounds which must be posted) throughout the winter. On rare occasions the course is frozen and if the frost is hard enough it is considered that playing on the proper greens does little or no damage, is we keep the main greens on and don't move to temporaries which we would use in light frosts.

Historically if the greens were frozen on a competition day, due to the total lottery of the golf that was able to be played (it is impossible to hold greens with forced carries), we just made it a 'fun' competition and it was non qualifying for handicaps.

With the introduction of WHS we are being urged to make any singles stroke play competition qualifying if it is played on a measured course to correct greens with regulation holes. 

Would you guys, who are mandated to post every round played in one of the correct formats, post a round in these conditions?

If you haven't ever played in such conditions it is not like playing just to firm/hard greens, it is like chipping on to  a car park. It is impossible to keep a ball on such a green having played, for example, out of a frozen green side bunker.

[jvincent]

Just curious, do you guys have the concept of an "active season"?

 

In North America in areas where there is cold/snow we limit the times of year when scores can be posted.

[Deceptively Short]

No we don’t have an ‘active season’. In the winter months we have more allowances on ‘postable’ rounds such as the ability to have LCP at the Club’s discretion and the use of fairway mats (this is often the case in more northerly links courses). Otherwise if we run a competition with an acceptable course set up score should be posted and you can pre register individual strokeplay attested rounds again if the course is set up in an acceptable fashion.

As we live on an island seasons are unpredictable, as someone said we don’t have a climate we just have weather.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Deceptively Short

[Halebopp]

6 minutes ago, Deceptively Short said:

if we run a competition with an acceptable course set up score should be posted

 

Are you saying the competition committee doesn't post the scores?

[Deceptively Short]

The competition committee would check scores and close the competition as usual but the question is whether it should be deemed by the competition committee  ‘in the competition settings’ as a ‘qualifier’ i.e. qualifying as a WHS score.

[jvincent]

I see.

 

If the course is in a condition which is arguably "unplayable" then I'd say the committee should declare any rounds that day as not postable.

[Newby]

4 hours ago, Deceptively Short said:

No we don’t have an ‘active season’. In the winter months we have more allowances on ‘postable’ rounds such as the ability to have LCP at the Club’s discretion and the use of fairway mats (this is often the case in more northerly links courses). Otherwise if we run a competition with an acceptable course set up score should be posted and you can pre register individual strokeplay attested rounds again if the course is set up in an acceptable fashion.

As we live on an island seasons are unpredictable, as someone said we don’t have a climate we just have weather.

I suspect that GB&I will in due course come up with some sort of version of 'active season' or 'unfair conditions'.

Further, I can see a bit of wriggle room in the explanation of 'measured course'. Significant measures are the 'holding' ability and speed of the green. They will be different to the original figure so arguably the course is not 'measured'.

 

On closer reading of the manual, in particular Rule 2, I can't see anything that compels the committee to make all competitive rounds 'qualifying'. It only specifies rounds that cannot be handicap counters. It would seem that the committee has considerable discretion. 

[Deceptively Short]

Good to know - thanks Newbie

[Augster]

I’m surprised there isn’t an “active season” if it gets that cold. Unless, nearly every year, you get to play year round. As in, it’s not uncommon to have 25 playable days in January etc. 

 

If the active season is all 12 months, And the course is open and good enough to play, I say post them. The higher scores won’t be keepers and everyone plays the same conditions. The PCC should bring the daily scores down a bit also. 

[Newby]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

I’m surprised there isn’t an “active season” if it gets that cold. Unless, nearly every year, you get to play year round. As in, it’s not uncommon to have 25 playable days in January etc. 

 

If the active season is all 12 months, And the course is open and good enough to play, I say post them. The higher scores won’t be keepers and everyone plays the same conditions. The PCC should bring the daily scores down a bit also. 

It is very difficult to identify particular winter times in the British Isles that could be specified as outside an active season. Weather and ground conditions are so variable within 100 miles.

In addition, there is the 'culture' effect. Because of the CONGU system of increasing handicaps by 0.1 for poor scores, players were/are reluctant to put their handicaps at risk when playing conditions were likely to be the cause.

As you say, these scores are unlikely to be 'keepers' and once players realise that, and clubs sensibly exercise their discretion, I believe we will see more 'qualifiers' played in 'playable' conditions over here.

[Deceptively Short]

I realise that ‘more qualifiers will be played in ‘playable’ conditions’, my question was to do with playing ‘qualifiers’ in unplayable conditions and the amount of discretion a committee will have. 
This question is now unfortunately moot as we are now in lockdown again and it may well be Spring before we are back out on the course - it looks as if we have had an inactive season imposed on us!

[Augster]

14 hours ago, Deceptively Short said:

I realise that ‘more qualifiers will be played in ‘playable’ conditions’, my question was to do with playing ‘qualifiers’ in unplayable conditions and the amount of discretion a committee will have. 
This question is now unfortunately moot as we are now in lockdown again and it may well be Spring before we are back out on the course - it looks as if we have had an inactive season imposed on us!

OMG. Do they really include golf courses in their lockdowns? Ish. Just ish. I’m all for halting the spread of C-19, but shutting down golf courses is about the last thing that spreads it. The Covid safety ladder goes, basically, 1. Stay home, 2. Stay in your car, 3. Play golf. 🙂

[Newby]

8 hours ago, Augster said:

OMG. Do they really include golf courses in their lockdowns? Ish. Just ish. I’m all for halting the spread of C-19, but shutting down golf courses is about the last thing that spreads it. The Covid safety ladder goes, basically, 1. Stay home, 2. Stay in your car, 3. Play golf. 🙂

Club house, proshop etc are closed.

In Scotland two balls are allowed (as they were in England in the previous lockdown). But no golf at all in England now even though it doesn't seem to make 'medical' sense.

[Deceptively Short]

It’s ironic in a cruel way as most Scottish courses where play is allowed are under snow and ice where courses down here in the South West have dried out and are fine  but we are not allowed to play.
Clubs are having to decide whether to have green staff in at work getting more winter work done quicker as there are no golfers in the way or sending them home and the government paying 80% of their wages. 

[LeoLeo99]

On 1/6/2021 at 10:22 AM, Deceptively Short said:

It’s ironic in a cruel way as most Scottish courses where play is allowed are under snow and ice where courses down here in the South West have dried out and are fine  but we are not allowed to play.
Clubs are having to decide whether to have green staff in at work getting more winter work done quicker as there are no golfers in the way or sending them home and the government paying 80% of their wages. 

There is a course on an island in Washington state that is only accessible from Canada. Since the border is closed due to covid19, the course is open but no one can play as it's inaccessible.  

[bladehunter]

You’d think pcc would make up for these odd days.  But. I’ve played the day after snow , two days with rock  hard frozen greens , and one day when it was below 35 all day.  Not once has pcc adjusted my round.     This is in South Carolina.  These are rare odd conditions.    We joked and wondered what has to happen for it to kick in?  Does it have to be snowing while you play ?  Or what ? 

[sui generis]

Perhaps the minimum number (8) of acceptable scores were not posted on those days.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system-usga-golf-faqs/faqs---what-is-the-playing-conditions-calculation--pcc--.html

[bladehunter]

4 hours ago, sui generis said:

Perhaps the minimum number (8) of acceptable scores were not posted on those days.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system-usga-golf-faqs/faqs---what-is-the-playing-conditions-calculation--pcc--.html

I guess it’s possible.  But since I’ve only played on Saturday mornings.and it’s in a dogfight of 20-30 guys , I doubt it.  But since I haven’t checked their postings. It’s possibly possible.  But.  That would mean no other person posted that whole day either ?  Really unlikely since it’s been crowded no matter the weather.  

[nsxguy]

On 1/13/2021 at 2:22 PM, bladehunter said:

You’d think pcc would make up for these odd days.  But. I’ve played the day after snow , two days with rock  hard frozen greens , and one day when it was below 35 all day.  Not once has pcc adjusted my round.     This is in South Carolina.  These are rare odd conditions.    We joked and wondered what has to happen for it to kick in?  Does it have to be snowing while you play ?  Or what ? 

 

As you should know by now weather has nothing to do with it. Only scores posted that day do.

 

From the FAQS

 

"the Playing Conditions Calculation takes place automatically to determine if scores made at the course were significantly higher or lower than the expected scores of the players who made them"

 

IMO, "expected scores" is the secret sauce.

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

As you should know by now weather has nothing to do with it. Only scores posted that day do.

 

From the FAQS

 

"the Playing Conditions Calculation takes place automatically to determine if scores made at the course were significantly higher or lower than the expected scores of the players who made them"

 

IMO, "expected scores" is the secret sauce.

Hmm. So if everyone plays good or same. No adjustment? Ok. I guess that makes more sense .  Probably points to the lack of posting as much as anything.  

[Newby]

12 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

As you should know by now weather has nothing to do with it. Only scores posted that day do.

 

??

 

Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC)
The statistical calculation that determines if conditions on a day of play differed
from normal playing conditions to the extent that they significantly impacted
players’ performance. Examples of conditions that could impact players’
performance include:
l Course conditions,
l Weather conditions, and
l Course set-up.

[Colin L]

14 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

As you should know by now weather has nothing to do with it. Only scores posted that day do.

 

 

And the weather has no effect on the scores of the day?

[phil75070]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

 

And the weather has no effect on the scores of the day?

The PCC, as has been stated, is based solely on scores posted that day. If the minimum of 8 scores aren't posted for whatever reason then there can be no adjustment. Weather, course setup and course conditions are only indirect contributors to the PCC as it is the impact they may or may not have on scores that day not those conditions directly.

 

Last Friday I shot my highest score in several years as the back nine played in 23mph steady winds with gusts to 44. There was no PCC adjustment as either 8 other golfers in the system didn't play that day or didn't bother to post because their score was so bad!

[Newby]

28 minutes ago, phil75070 said:

The PCC, as has been stated, is based solely on scores posted that day. If the minimum of 8 scores aren't posted for whatever reason then there can be no adjustment. Weather, course setup and course conditions are only indirect contributors to the PCC as it is the impact they may or may not have on scores that day not those conditions directly.

 

Last Friday I shot my highest score in several years as the back nine played in 23mph steady winds with gusts to 44. There was no PCC adjustment as either 8 other golfers in the system didn't play that day or didn't bother to post because their score was so bad!

It's the different worlds again.

It is very unlikely in GB&I and elsewhere in Europe I would think, where formal competition scores dominate, that all scores would not be returned on the day of play.

The old CONGU (CSS) equivalent was a fairly frequent occurrence.

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

??

 

Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC)
The statistical calculation that determines if conditions on a day of play differed
from normal playing conditions to the extent that they significantly impacted
players’ performance. Examples of conditions that could impact players’
performance include:
l Course conditions,
l Weather conditions, and
l Course set-up.

 

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

 

And the weather has no effect on the scores of the day?

 

1 hour ago, phil75070 said:

The PCC, as has been stated, is based solely on scores posted that day. If the minimum of 8 scores aren't posted for whatever reason then there can be no adjustment. Weather, course setup and course conditions are only indirect contributors to the PCC as it is the impact they may or may not have on scores that day not those conditions directly.

 

Last Friday I shot my highest score in several years as the back nine played in 23mph steady winds with gusts to 44. There was no PCC adjustment as either 8 other golfers in the system didn't play that day or didn't bother to post because their score was so bad!

 

This is exactly correct.

 

We all know what we say can often be taken multiple different ways if not explicitly (and sometimes "painfully") constructed.

 

IMO "Playing Conditions Calculation" is terribly misnamed although I confess I can't come up with a better one.

 

As newby cut-and-pasted "Examples of conditions that could impact players’ performance include"; "could" being the operative word.

 

Not enough was cut-and-pasted though, a mistake *I* usually make.

 

The calculated adjustment is dependent upon:

 

Whether significantly fewer players than anticipated attained their expected score and, consequently, conditions are determined to be harder than normal.

 

Whether significantly more players than anticipated attained their expected score and, consequently, conditions are determined to be easier than normal.

 

Full stop.

 

I have a single instance in 2020 of a PCC adjustment; +3. I noticed it immediately after I played that round and actually couldn't believe it.

 

That round was played in unusually great weather conditions. On the tee I was thinking "What a great day for scoring" and then proceeded to play terribly. Warm, sunny, and not a breath of wind, the latter especially unusual here in SoFla.

 

 

[Newby]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

I have a single instance in 2020 of a PCC adjustment; +3. I noticed it immediately after I played that round and actually couldn't believe it.

 

That round was played in unusually great weather conditions. On the tee I was thinking "What a great day for scoring" and then proceeded to play terribly. Warm, sunny, and not a breath of wind, the latter especially unusual here in SoFla.

 

 

How many other scores were posted on that day relating only to rounds played on that day?

Were they all extraordinarily good or bad?

 

Incidentally, you say "immediately after". I thought scores don't get processed until after midnight.

[nsxguy]

55 minutes ago, Newby said:

How many other scores were posted on that day relating only to rounds played on that day?

Were they all extraordinarily good or bad?

 

Incidentally, you say "immediately after". I thought scores don't get processed until after midnight.

 

Is there access to other rounds used for a day's calc ? If there is I'm not aware of it. Our group had about 20 guys. I don't recall how anybody else did that day as usually, when I play that poorly, I just want to get out of there.

 

As for the rest of the golf course ? Have no idea how may guys played that day or whether they even keep a 'cap. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

As for "immediately after", to me, that's the next day, especially now that each round generates a new index calculation.

 

When it was every 2 weeks I often didn't check; the revision index would be emailed to me.

[Newby]

15 hours ago, nsxguy said:

each round generates a new index calculation.

 

But each new calculation rarely produces an Index change. 

Don't you look at your app shortly before you play?

[nsxguy]

10 hours ago, Newby said:

But each new calculation rarely produces an Index change. 

Don't you look at your app shortly before you play?

 

Rarely ?

 

Don't know about that. Mine changes, admittedly by a tenth or 2, almost every round.

 

But no, I don't need the app. The GHIN site shows a trending cap so I'll just note and remember that. It IS subject to change if the PCC calc kicks in but that's only happened to me once in 2020.

 

And in my case my cap doesn't matter right now. I play in 2 different "quota" games where the cap was only used as a starting point. Your quota does up or down based on the round you just shot so caps aren't needed.

 

1 of the quota game "clubs" also plays a net game some days and I'll skip those until my cap with them normalizes. They only use scores when played with them for cap purposes and since my cap has gone up considerably in the last 16 months due to a serious heart op, I'm just not competitive with my old cap.

 

And I play once a week in a scramble - no caps needed there either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Newby]

23 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Rarely ?

 

Don't know about that. Mine changes, admittedly by a tenth or 2, almost every round.

 

But no, I don't need the app. The GHIN site shows a trending cap so I'll just note and remember that. It IS subject to change if the PCC calc kicks in but that's only happened to me once in 2020.

 

And in my case my cap doesn't matter right now. I play in 2 different "quota" games where the cap was only used as a starting point. Your quota does up or down based on the round you just shot so caps aren't needed.

 

1 of the quota game "clubs" also plays a net game some days and I'll skip those until my cap with them normalizes. They only use scores when played with them for cap purposes and since my cap has gone up considerably in the last 16 months due to a serious heart op, I'm just not competitive with my old cap.

 

And I play once a week in a scramble - no caps needed there either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't know what 'quota' games are but what means that they cannot/should not be returned as handicap scores? Are these 2 best from 4 or similar?

Edited January 20, 2021 by Newby