Rory's Rant - Distance Insights Project - Your thoughts?

[milesgiles]

17 minutes ago, bigred90gt said:

You’re not really correlating 460cc drivers to course closures, are you? 

 

No. I’m saying there isn’t any measurable benefit in attracting and maintaining interest of new players though 

[milesgiles]

44 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

Do you use rolled back equipment?

 

No, because I’d have to play a lower level of competition 

 

its like Formula 1. You are wasting your time in the wrong car. 

 

If EVERYONE was using traditional clubs, that’s a different matter 

[caniac6]

4 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

No, because I’d have to play a lower level of competition 

 

its like Formula 1. You are wasting your time in the wrong car. 

 

If EVERYONE was using traditional clubs, that’s a different matter 

You are a low handicap, and say that moderately skilled players don't need a 460 driver. Surprising!

[milesgiles]

8 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

You are a low handicap, and say that moderately skilled players don't need a 460 driver. Surprising!

 

I don’t think anyone better than a genuine 18 cap ‘needs’ a 460. Of those with a higher cap than that, I would guess they are overwhelmingly social golfers and seniors and nobody cares what’s in their bag. Half of it is probably (accidentally) non conforming anyway 

[bigred90gt]

On 2/4/2021 at 5:20 PM, milesgiles said:

 

Its not reducing distance, it’s reducing distance on mishits. I will never understand a moderately skilled golfer needing or wanting to hit a club that is essentially impossible to miss with, ie the 460 cc driver.

 

the only people who are going to be that upset are not playing any serious competitive golf anyway, so could just carry on with a 460. I don’t see the issue 

Perhaps you are skilled enough to make it seem as though a 460 cc driver is “essentially impossible to miss with”, and bravo for you. Well done. 
 

that puts you in a skill class that 99.9% of golfers on the planet will never achieve. Unfortunately for the rest of us, you seem to want the same thing the USGA does, which is to limit forgiveness and distance for those same 99.9% of golfers based on the skill set that 0.1% of golfers have been able to achieve through rigorous practice regimens. Practice regimens that those 99.9% of people just do not have the time to dedicate to it in their daily life. 
 

and that is quite unfortunate that those in charge hold that position. 

[caniac6]

40 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I don’t think anyone better than a genuine 18 cap ‘needs’ a 460. Of those with a higher cap than that, I would guess they are overwhelmingly social golfers and seniors and nobody cares what’s in their bag. Half of it is probably (accidentally) non conforming anyway 

In my mind, as the President of the Rollback Campaign, I figured you to be playing a 1960s set of Haig Ultras, Mc Gregor persimmons. and either an 8802 or Bullseye putter. Also, I play with a lot of retired guys, and have never seen, as far as I can tell, a non conforming club. On occasion, someone might have an extra club, but that is extremely rare, and the guys that might stretch the rules a bit, don't usually matter in the outcome of a match. 

 

[tw_focus]

I'm not a fan of proposed rules changes but Rory's response is nonsense and deflecting from the real issues. Believe it or not, you can walk and chew gum at the same time, you can do all of the things Rors suggests AND debate the distance "problem".

 

The root of the matter is that there is no distance problem. BDC had a good year last year but by no means dominated the scene. He only put up good rounds when his putting and short game were exceptional and put up poor rounds when they weren't, pretty much like everyone else.

[caniac6]

One thing that I don't know has been spoken about, is that the USGA is a "non-profit". The equipment companies, many of which are publicly traded, are "for profit". They just released their new lines within the last few weeks, and their r&d teams are probably working on products for their next cycle. What are they supposed to do? A "proclamation " from the USGA could cause them to be stuck with inventory, along with retailers, or seriously put them behind the eight ball with their release cycle. 

[gvogel]

13 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

One thing that I don't know has been spoken about, is that the USGA is a "non-profit". The equipment companies, many of which are publicly traded, are "for profit". They just released their new lines within the last few weeks, and their r&d teams are probably working on products for their next cycle. What are they supposed to do? A "proclamation " from the USGA could cause them to be stuck with inventory, along with retailers, or seriously put them behind the eight ball with their release cycle. 

If the reduced distance equipment is only for some tournaments as a local condition, there is no reason why the pros would not play today's equipment in many of their tournaments.  There is no reason why the club buying public would not continue to buy today's, or tomorrow's equipment.

[caniac6]

12 minutes ago, gvogel said:

If the reduced distance equipment is only for some tournaments as a local condition, there is no reason why the pros would not play today's equipment in many of their tournaments.  There is no reason why the club buying public would not continue to buy today's, or tomorrow's equipment.

So the equipment companies will have to make balls and clubs that they can't sell, and players that spend a lot of time dialing in equipment will have to dial in new clubs and balls for selected tournaments. If I were a pro, I would not play in the tournaments that required bifurcated equipment, regardless. Also, if Titleist has to make a ton of balls they can't sell, guess who the cost will be passed to. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by caniac6

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, bigred90gt said:

Perhaps you are skilled enough to make it seem as though a 460 cc driver is “essentially impossible to miss with”, and bravo for you. Well done. 
 

that puts you in a skill class that 99.9% of golfers on the planet will never achieve. Unfortunately for the rest of us, you seem to want the same thing the USGA does, which is to limit forgiveness and distance for those same 99.9% of golfers based on the skill set that 0.1% of golfers have been able to achieve through rigorous practice regimens. Practice regimens that those 99.9% of people just do not have the time to dedicate to it in their daily life. 
 

and that is quite unfortunate that those in charge hold that position. 

I am certainly nothing special but it’s not relevant.. the 460 is the equivalent of standing a foot closer to the dartboard. Flattering and pointless 

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, caniac6 said:

In my mind, as the President of the Rollback Campaign, I figured you to be playing a 1960s set of Haig Ultras, Mc Gregor persimmons. and either an 8802 or Bullseye putter. Also, I play with a lot of retired guys, and have never seen, as far as I can tell, a non conforming club. On occasion, someone might have an extra club, but that is extremely rare, and the guys that might stretch the rules a bit, don't usually matter in the outcome of a match. 

 

 

A club can be non conforming just by swapping a shaft. It’s easily done I’m positive I’ve had dodgy makes and mash ups of clubs that are definitely not on any official list.

 

and yes, I would much prefer playing and watching players with traditional clubs. The game was better back in the day, for all the reasons discussed, but this generation are understandably going to have a hard time believing that 

[caniac6]

1 minute ago, milesgiles said:

I am certainly nothing special but it’s not relevant.. the 460 is the equivalent of standing a foot closer to the dartboard. Flattering and pointless 

Then why don't you play a small driver. You seem to point out all the reasons not to play a 460 driver. Be a man of your convictions. You must feel like you are cheating every time you tee it up. Especially if you use a tall tee, too.

[milesgiles]

7 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

So the equipment companies will have to make balls and clubs that they can't sell, and players that spend a lot of time dialing in equipment will have to dial in new clubs and balls for selected tournaments. If I were a pro, I would not play in the tournaments that required bifurcated equipment, regardless. Also, if Titleist has to make a ton of balls they can't sell, guess who the cost will be passed to.

 

I think this is a fair point. I’m torn between a higher spinning ball (if it works for amateurs acceptably) and the smaller driver head (which I know will not cause the sky to fall whatever some people here think)

[gvogel]

Just now, caniac6 said:

Then why don't you play a small driver. You seem to point out all the reasons not to play a 460 driver. Be a man of your convictions. You must feel like you are cheating every time you tee it up. Especially if you use a tall tee, too.

Why should miles run 110 meters when everyone else is running 100?

[milesgiles]

2 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

Then why don't you play a small driver. You seem to point out all the reasons not to play a 460 driver. Be a man of your convictions. You must feel like you are cheating every time you tee it up. Especially if you use a tall tee, too.

I’ve already explained why, an hour ago 

[MMB1500]

16 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

So the equipment companies will have to make balls and clubs that they can't sell, and players that spend a lot of time dialing in equipment will have to dial in new clubs and balls for selected tournaments. If I were a pro, I would not play in the tournaments that required bifurcated equipment, regardless. Also, if Titleist has to make a ton of balls they can't sell, guess who the cost will be passed to.

 

But that's Titleist's business model now. They've been gouging the consumer on pricing and massively inflating the costs of golf equipment for years. There will come a point when golfers simply aren't prepared to pay $60 or $70+ for 12 golf balls. 

 

Also the costs incurred would be from essentially adding one more ball to their line up (a pro ball). It's not going to impact them as much as they make out. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by MMB1500

[MMB1500]

17 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

So the equipment companies will have to make balls and clubs that they can't sell, and players that spend a lot of time dialing in equipment will have to dial in new clubs and balls for selected tournaments. If I were a pro, I would not play in the tournaments that required bifurcated equipment, regardless. Also, if Titleist has to make a ton of balls they can't sell, guess who the cost will be passed to.

 

You are correct which is why bifurcation should be applied to all professional players and tournaments. Much simpler. 

[caniac6]

Just now, milesgiles said:

I’ve already explained why, an hour ago 

If I were as adamant as you, that the game was better using traditional equipment, I would use traditional equipment. You sound like a preacher that tells people how to live their lives, and gets caught in his office with the church secretary.

[caniac6]

16 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Why should miles run 110 meters when everyone else is running 100?

He shouldn't, but if he claimed that you didn't need modern track shoes, I'd expect him to show up with old ones. I really think that Miles and I have completely opposite different opinions on this issue, and that's ok. When it comes right down to it, the governing bodies will do what they want regardless of what anyone wants, and we will have to adjust. I'm done with this.

Edited February 6, 2021 by caniac6

[milesgiles]

6 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

He shouldn't, but if he claimed that you didn't need modern track shoes, I'd expect him to show up with old ones.

 

But I haven’t said the 460 doesn’t make a difference.. it does, far too much of a difference. You’re confused 

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

Put a "bonus hole" at precisely 300 yards from the tee box on tour events.  If you make a hole in one on the bonus hole, mark your score as a 1 and move to the next hole.

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

But I haven’t said the 460 doesn’t make a difference.. it does, far too much of a difference. You’re confused 

In fact the better the player, the less difference it makes.  With the pros it would make almost no difference.

[gvogel]

15 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

He shouldn't, but if he claimed that you didn't need modern track shoes, I'd expect him to show up with old ones. I really think that Miles and I have completely opposite different opinions on this issue, and that's ok. When it comes right down to it, the governing bodies will do what they want regardless of what anyone wants, and we will have to adjust. I'm done with this.

the ruling golf bodies will NOT do what they want regardless.  They have to get buy-in from the Pro tours, the manufacturers and the tournament sponsors.  That is why they have been developing their approach for over 10 years.

 

I would hazard a guess that the ruling bodies have had many off the record conversations with the OEMs and players.

[gvogel]

2 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

In fact the better the player, the less difference it makes.  With the pros it would make almost no difference.

For the players who have learned to hit up on the ball 4* or 5*, it could make an extreme difference; have you forgot what a pop up feels and looks like?  Do you remember the pop up that Jay Haas hit on the 18th hole at Oak Hill in the Ryder Cup?  

 

I'm pretty sure that with a smaller headed driver, hitting up 1* or 2* would be feasible.

[milesgiles]

7 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

In fact the better the player, the less difference it makes.  With the pros it would make almost no difference.

 

I actually think they get the most out of it. They are full time athletes capable of the highest swing speeds. That’s what gets especially rewarded by the 460.. the high swing speed that’s not quite middled  every time 

Edited February 6, 2021 by milesgiles

[ThinkingPlus]

23 minutes ago, gvogel said:

For the players who have learned to hit up on the ball 4* or 5*, it could make an extreme difference; have you forgot what a pop up feels and looks like?  Do you remember the pop up that Jay Haas hit on the 18th hole at Oak Hill in the Ryder Cup?  

 

I'm pretty sure that with a smaller headed driver, hitting up 1* or 2* would be feasible.

I agree it will be a bigger adjustment for the LPGA.  Very, very few male pros hit up more than a couple degrees.  Plus it is much harder controlling a driver swing at +5 to +6 than going back to a more 3W like swing. 

[ThinkingPlus]

29 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I actually think they get the most out of it. They are full time athletes capable of the highest swing speeds. That’s what gets especially rewarded by the 460.. the high swing speed that’s not quite middled  every time 

Yet, they will still be impacted minimally because of their talent.  They still generate high swing speeds with 3W and hit center.  Finally, the OEMs have low volume, high COR designs with large faces in their hip pockets.  You can count on it.

[milesgiles]

15 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Yet, they will still be impacted minimally because of their talent.  They still generate high swing speeds with 3W and hit center.  Finally, the OEMs have low volume, high COR designs with large faces in their hip pockets.  You can count on it.

 

But that goes back to the point I’ve made dozens of times.. if they barely ever miss the centre, why do they ‘need’ a 460???

 

i can’t accept that’s it’s because they have to hit what the amateur ‘needs’ (regardless of anyone actually believing the amateur ‘needs’ a toaster on a stick).

 

do they lower a basketball hoop so that an amateur can dunk it? No, and no sport has ever changed their regulations so that the amateur can do what the pro’s do. It’s nonsense 

[ThinkingPlus]

5 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

But that goes back to the point I’ve made dozens of times.. if they barely ever miss the centre, why do they ‘need’ a 460???

 

i can’t accept that’s it’s because they have to hit what the amateur ‘needs’ (regardless of anyone actually believing the amateur ‘needs’ a toaster on a stick).

 

do they lower a basketball hoop so that an amateur can dunk it? No, and no sport has ever changed their regulations so that the amateur can do what the pro’s do. It’s nonsense 

They "need" a 460cc driver for the same reason you "need" one and I "need" one.