Rory's Rant - Distance Insights Project - Your thoughts?

[bladehunter]

7 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Just leave the driver at home if you want a challenge, no one needs 14 clubs, bag is lighter, you save $500 a year.

 

You are out of your mind if you think golfers will move up tees because the driver get's harder to hit, I'd say 85% of golfers already play the wrong tees, even with these point and shoot 460cc beasts

At least we agree on what the real pace of play issue is.  Idiots who refuse to move up.  

[MMB1500]

One thing I'm not clear on reading these distance debates is why so many people are dead set on playing the same equipment as the pros. Can someone enlighten me on why this matters?

 

Plenty of other sports have bifurcation. What is it about golf that means we shouldn't be considering it? 

Edited February 4, 2021 by MMB1500

[Krt22]

Just now, bladehunter said:

At least we agree on what the real pace of play issue is.  Idiots who refuse to move up.  

Which is exactly why there doesn't really need to be any change. If folks played the appropriate tees, the tips at a large majority of courses would largely go unused. 

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, MMB1500 said:

One thing I'm not clear on reading these distance debates is why so many people are dead set on playing the same equipment as the pros. Can someone enlighten me on why this matters?

 

Plenty of other sports have bifurcation. What is it about golf that means we shouldn't be considering it? 

That is simply one of the allures of golf. That you can play the same courses and equipment as the pros. That way we can fantasize about being one lightning in a bottle away from being on tour

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

Which is exactly why there doesn't really need to be any change. If folks played the appropriate tees, the tips at a large majority of courses would largely go unused. 

This is a fixable issue too though , if they put a handicap limit on tee boxes.  But hey. Asking people to practice Personal responsibilities is like “ so harshing our mellow man “.  

[CasualLie]

Just now, bladehunter said:

This is a fixable issue too though , if they put a handicap limit on tee boxes.  But hey. Asking people to practice Personal responsibilities is like “ so harshing our mellow man “.  

 

There is a simple solution used quite often in U.K. and at many private clubs.  Just remove the back tee markers.  That discourages most.  And only those with nerve would tee off on a box that looks closed.  Or the ones who are truly capable and the pro shop knows it.

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

This is a fixable issue too though , if they put a handicap limit on tee boxes.  But hey. Asking people to practice Personal responsibilities is like “ so harshing our mellow man “.  

I paid my greens fee bro, I'm going to see the entire course and take as many strokes as I like, chill with that. lol 

[kasting333]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

At least we agree on what the real pace of play issue is.  Idiots who refuse to move up.  

Agreed. I wish that was the governing bodies main focus instead of just running a few commercials and ignoring the problem. They should lead by example with pace of play, playing 9 and maybe playing shorter courses or moving up a tee. 
 

Maybe make the tees based on scoring and not gender/age? I have no clue but that is a massive issue that has gotten very little effort.  

[MMB1500]

13 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

That is simply one of the allures of golf. That you can play the same courses and equipment as the pros. That way we can fantasize about being one lightning in a bottle away from being on tour

 

That's a fair point. But it seems to me that what you're describing is purely an emotional argument, one that basically boils down to ego, which I believe is a huge factor in these debates. 

 

What about some objective, fact-based reasons? 

Edited February 4, 2021 by MMB1500

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, kasting333 said:

Agreed. I wish that was the governing bodies main focus instead of just running a few commercials and ignoring the problem. They should lead by example with pace of play, playing 9 and maybe playing shorter courses or moving up a tee. 
 

Maybe make the tees based on scoring and not gender/age? I have no clue but that is a massive issue that has gotten very little effort.  

Because it's easier to make up a bogey man than it is to attack the fragile ego of the average golfer.

[kasting333]

3 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

There is a simple solution used quite often in U.K. and at many private clubs.  Just remove the back tee markers.  That discourages most.  And only those with nerve would tee off on a box that looks closed.  Or the ones who are truly capable and the pro shop knows it.

That’s a great idea but most golfer aren’t breaking 100 and should be playing the ladies tees 

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, MMB1500 said:

 

That's a fair point. But it seems to me that what you're describing is purely an emotional argument. 

 

What about some objective, fact-based reasons? 

That is the thing, I wouldnt say its purely emotional. Golf is one of the few sports where just about anybody can be really really good and play at a very high level. Most amateur athletes know at an early age they simply don't have the athleticism to make it as a pro. Look at Gary Woodland, he was in college on a B-Ball scholarship and quit because he knew that was the end of the road for him. Golf is different, you can be pretty damn good and play right along side the best, since the difference between pros and high level ams is very nuanced. True bifurcation cuts that tie an where do you draw the line? At what point does a high level am need/want to carry two sets of clubs, making entry into the pro ranks even more difficult for those not sponsored by a trust?

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, kasting333 said:

That’s a great idea but most golfer aren’t breaking 100 and should be playing the ladies tees 

Dead serious.  They should.  I have a 12 year old that I’m not letting off the front box until he breaks 80.  I taught myself how to play that way.  If everyone learned that way it would all work itself out.  And people would have more fun.  

[CasualLie]

Now mind you, not a lot of ladies play at St George's, Sunningdale, Prestwick, Troon, Western Gailes, etc...and not a lot of ladies play (relatively) at SFGC, Lake Merced...but what stands out for me is you show up and there are two sets of tees - the main ones setup by the pro which are challenging enough and something for everyone, and a set closer that you can call what you want (ladies, junior, octogenarian, etc...).  Somewhere behind you, not that noticeable are a set of tournament tees, and I am not talking about the member-guest best ball, the serious tournament and no one plays those without permission of the pro.

 

These modern resort courses with 6 sets of tees are so overkill.  And then you have these posers who get a to a course for the first time and immediately grab the scorecard and start poo-pooing any set of tees under 6500.

[bladehunter]

11 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

I paid my greens fee bro, I'm going to see the entire course and take as many strokes as I like, chill with that. lol 

Lol.  I know this is a joke.  But it’s said in seriousness soooo many times.  And the whole course of play for the day pays for it.  

[milesgiles]

33 minutes ago, Mookie91 said:

They aren’t shutting because they are obsolete.  They are shutting because the game has been in steady decline the last 10 years.

 

I didn’t say anything about them being obsolete. The point was if 460’s make the game easier and more accessible why the decline?

i think they encourage bad technique and ultimately increase frustration 

[kasting333]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Dead serious.  They should.  I have a 12 year old that I’m not letting off the front box until he breaks 80.  I taught myself how to play that way.  If everyone learned that way it would all work itself out.  And people would have more fun.  

I applaud you. My college coach would have us play the ladies tees the week before we played an easier tournament. It was a ton of fun and we would go low but players weren’t breaking 60 often. You still have to chip it close and make the putts 

 

I think it’s a drill any golfer should be doing bc it’s fun as hell and great for your game. 

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Lol.  I know this is a joke.  But it’s said in seriousness soooo many times.  And the whole course of play for the day pays for it.  

That is one of the big reasons why I joined a private club lol. Almost no one plays the tips, only pros and a handful of younger + guys 

[weezel514]

20 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I didn't think it was possible to combine the defense of distance being a non-issue with all out SJW!

 

Rhetorically,  I thought for a nice guy who doesn't appear to be a deep thinker his statement was brilliant.  If someone was going to spin being against the ruling bodies on this, he sounded great for an example.

 

If you want to look more at the facts and the sense of some of what he said --- I don't think he really read or digested what was released and what is and more importantly isn't actually happening as a result and when, and for some reason wanted to pick up the banner for the masses, lol. 

Big to differ a little. I feel Rory is a nice guy who happens to be one of the deepest thinkers and one of the most qualified voices in golf today.

[MMB1500]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

That is the thing, I wouldnt say its purely emotional. Golf is one of the few sports where just about anybody can be really really good and play at a very high level. Most amateur athletes know at an early age they simply don't have the athleticism to make it as a pro. Look at Gary Woodland, he was in college on a B-Ball scholarship and quit because he knew that was the end of the road for him. Golf is different, you can be pretty damn good and play right along side the best, since the difference between pros and high level ams is very nuanced. True bifurcation cuts that tie an where do you draw the line? At what point does a high level am need/want to carry two sets of clubs, making entry into the pro ranks even more difficult for those not sponsored by a trust?

 

I hear you. I think we agree that this is almost entirely about emotion and golfers' fragile egos. 

 

In terms of bifurcation, there would certainly be a question on when to switch between amateur and pro equipment, but people manage it in other sports. Plus 99% of golfers would never have to worry about it, as they will never play in a tournament that requires pro equipment anyway. 

 

Therefore, in practical terms the number of people that would actually be impacted financially by bifurcation would be miniscule, at least as far as having to "choose" which sort of equipment to play goes.

[weezel514]

15 hours ago, CasualLie said:

The weird part to me is that there are a ton of overpaid people at USGA who just sit around all day and debate this stuff.  They outsource the research and really do not do anything but talk, talk, talk...And use the toilets.

 

They probably have not been to a muni course in the last 20 years, if ever, likely never been to a golf retail shop, and never hit a drive over 250 unless it was downhill down wind.  

 

So what in the world are these guys putting in their coffee to dream up such nonsense?!   

Agreed.  These are the same suits that sold theif flagship tournament and other events to Fox chasing money and had to do an about-face going back to NBC.

[Krt22]

3 minutes ago, MMB1500 said:

 

I hear you. I think we agree that this is almost entirely about emotion and golfers' fragile egos. 

 

In terms of bifurcation, there would certainly be a question on when to switch between amateur and pro equipment, but people manage it in other sports. Plus 99% of golfers would never have to worry about it, as they will never play in a tournament that requires pro equipment anyway. 

 

Therefore, in practical terms the number of people that would actually be impacted financially by bifurcation would be miniscule, at least as far as having to "choose" which sort of equipment to play goes.

The cost wouldn't just impact those on that line, it would mean OEMs need to make two sets of clubs, one with high volume and one with very little. You lose the economies of scale, so prices across the board would likely increase.

[golfandfishing]

36 minutes ago, Mookie91 said:

Who holds the low round at the Waste Management tournament this weekend....Calc 2001

I think this actually supports the argument for limiting equipment. The course has been lengthened several times with new tees and also closed for a lengthy period for a remodel since then. All that in an effort to mitigate advances made largely since 2001 that allow players to swing at higher speed without an equal trade off in allowing for a miss hit. Keeping Calc’s tournament record relevant mostly relies on altering the course to keep up with today’s equipment. 

[Mookie91]

12 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I didn’t say anything about them being obsolete. The point was if 460’s make the game easier and more accessible why the decline?

i think they encourage bad technique and ultimately increase frustration 

Cost, time to play, difficult game to play, dress codes, elitism, etc..

 

I don’t think anyone will disagree that a today’s 460cc driver is an advantage over a steel shafted persimmon driver.  A 460cc driver will not make the game as easy as some are making it sound.  A 460cc driver may make the game more enjoyable for the majority of casual golfers.

[LeoLeo99]

13 minutes ago, weezel514 said:

Big to differ a little. I feel Rory is a nice guy who happens to be one of the deepest thinkers and one of the most qualified voices in golf today.

 

I agree.   He's well spoken and easy to like.  Like an Irish Rickie.  

[LeoLeo99]

8 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

The cost wouldn't just impact those on that line, it would mean OEMs need to make two sets of clubs, one with high volume and one with very little. You lose the economies of scale, so prices across the board would likely increase.

 

OEMs don't need to do anything.  They could say, we're not making any new clubs that conform to the local rule.  The PGATour can refuse to invoke the local rule.  All the big name players are multimillionaires and set for life.  They don't need the money and they could opt to not play in any events under the local rule.  USGA doesn't own exclusivity to the rules of golf.  If they push too hard, another organization can write rules and we'll have real bifurcation mess.  

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

OEMs don't need to do anything.  They could say, we're not making any new clubs that conform to the local rule.  The PGATour can refuse to invoke the local rule.  All the big name players are multimillionaires and set for life.  They don't need the money and they could opt to not play in any events under the local rule.  USGA doesn't own exclusivity to the rules of golf.  If they push too hard, another organization can write rules and we'll have real bifurcation mess.  

You are right. The tour doesn't exist without the players, they could easily boycott said silliness and slap the USGA in the face. I would actually like to see that

[dlygrisse]

Here is what pisses me off, from a totally selfish level.  As a person who doesn't hit it very far, mostly from a lot of physical injuries I have suffered through my 55 years on this earth most of those chasing a little white ball.  When I hit a modern driver I do hit it longer, they are also more forgiving, however I learned to play with the old equipment, many years playing the old TM Burner driver which may have been smaller than some persimmon, with a DGS300, and a persimmon prior.  With the new stuff at my swing speed I am not that much longer, BUT when you have 125 mph swing speed you pick up a bunch of yards, probably 40 to 50.  All because of the driver.  The higher swing speed makes the face spring that much more, while the average guy just doesn't get that much out of it.  

 

If we both picked up 20 yards, then fine, but I may be picking up 20 and they pick up 50, it's the rich getting richer.  I used to play golf with some long hitters and I could hang, now it's like we play a different game.  The harder you hit the ball, the more the face springs.  Before the COR limits, the rule book said something to the effect of "not having spring like or trampoline effect"  It was never scientifically defined, but the spirit of the rule was that you were hitting the ball with something that was a hard surface that did not propel the ball, now they market something that used to violate the rule book.  

 

My proposal would be to make drivers that spring the ball same at all speeds, the shorter people would still gain a few yards, while the bigger hitters would only hit the ball farther because they swing it faster.  Of course being able to swing 100% and still get a decent shot off, and longer lighter shafts will still help increase swing speed, but I view that as an equitable advantage.  Same with custom fitting.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by dlygrisse

[Strategery]

21 hours ago, swagee said:

Rory's rebuttal: 

1. Ur research is a waste of time and money. 

2. Golf is much larger than just the pros and tours. 

3. Use that money to help increase public awareness of the game. 

4. Making it harder for pros by imposing special rules on tours.

 

I'm with Rory on this. Ur thoughts? 

1. Not a rebuttal.

2. Not a rebuttal.

3. Not a rebuttal.

4. Not a rebuttal.

 

Rory is not a deep thinker. Well known.

[dlygrisse]

57 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

At least we agree on what the real pace of play issue is.  Idiots who refuse to move up.  

I really like golf courses that are managed in a thoughtful way for tee placement.  On busy days move the tees forward a bit so it's easier to clear hazards etc.  Also on windy days make the into the wind holes shorter.  You don't need to max out the distance to the back of the teeing area on every tee box, move them forward or backward a set if need be.  Great example is a par 3, over water that could play 100 to 200 yards.  Move the main tees up to 130 on busy days, reserve the back tees for tournaments only, or as someone said remove the tee markers.  Sure somedays the tee could be set at 150 to 170 for the average guy.  But hitting 9 iron or wedge over water is going to go much better for the average player than hitting 5 iron.