Single digit handicap with awful flat swing

[e-man]

Hey everyone.  I’ve been playing for 40 years (currently 53 year old).  Index is currently 4.8.  I’ve always had a flat swing but never knew how flat until getting a mat and net in my garage and videoing myself.  I take the club outside initially, roll my wrists to a really flat position, wrap the club behind me (like I’d smash a wall if there was one there) and then reroute the club back on plane in my downswing and make pretty good contact.  I’ve tried so many different drills (including the one where I pick the club straight up and then turn the shoulders), but my regular swing is still awful, flat and just plain ugly.  Any ideas as to how I can take the club back more upright and consistently on plane?  Video of swing with a 5 iron attached.  Thank you!!!

 

 

[e-man]

Here’s my swing with the driver.  Just plain ugly but it works.  
 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

Monte's NTC is the answer to this question. 

[e-man]

Just watched one of Monte’s no turn cast videos.  No way that will work (lol), but I’m willing to try anything.  I’ll give it a shot the next time I have the net set up and will post up a video.  Thanks for the help. 

[TheDeanAbides]

15 minutes ago, e-man said:

Just watched one of Monte’s no turn cast videos.  No way that will work (lol), but I’m willing to try anything.  I’ll give it a shot the next time I have the net set up and will post up a video.  Thanks for the help. 

The old video on YouTube is a decade old. You need the new series on his website. It's 30 bucks and is so much more complete. 

 

If your wrists have normal range of movement you can move them properly. The change just has to be made slowly. 

[golfarb1]

Get a 3 sided golf club box and  place it on the ground do that it is angled slightly to the inside. . Place the lower shaft against the box and keep the shaft touching the box for the first 12-18 inches of your takeaway. 

[MPAndreassi]

I’m going to give you an unpopular opinion here. If your game isn’t being held back by driving and iron play, don’t chase something that looks prettier. If impact is solid and you’re hitting it where you want to, work with it. That being said, if you feel like your handicap and game has hit a ceiling because of your full swing mechanics a change may be worthwhile. 

[Cwebb]

Have you read the "Arm Swing illusion" thread?

 

[e-man]

Yep, I’ve actually emailed with Jim.  A light bulb went off when I watched one of his arm swing illusion videos.  The problem is that I just can’t execute it.  The arms take over, wrap behind me and then I have to manipulate to get back to square.  On good days (which are more frequent than bad days), I’m able to do it, which is why my index is good.  But the bad days are really bad, to the point where I don’t know which way the ball is going. 

[TheDeanAbides]

7 hours ago, e-man said:

Yep, I’ve actually emailed with Jim.  A light bulb went off when I watched one of his arm swing illusion videos.  The problem is that I just can’t execute it.  The arms take over, wrap behind me and then I have to manipulate to get back to square.  On good days (which are more frequent than bad days), I’m able to do it, which is why my index is good.  But the bad days are really bad, to the point where I don’t know which way the ball is going. 

You keep saying that you can't do it. What that means is that you haven't worked enough on it in slow motion and breaking the moves down to overcome decades of programming. 

 

I used to have almost the exact same swing that came from swinging adult clubs as a kid. It took ages to override it but you CAN do it. 

[TheDeanAbides]

33 minutes ago, laneholt said:

E-man,

 

  Do you seriously believe that your flattish BS I causing those poor shots  ? If so , what are the facts behind that  ? Why ?

🤦‍♂️

[e-man]

Okay, here is my no turn cast swing.  I think it looks a little better?  Definitely less tension and while I wasn’t thinking about turning at all, I definitely turned.  
 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

Okay, what you need is to spend LOTS of time figuring out how your wrists and forearms move. Until you can get into a similar position to Monte at P3 you have no chance. The good news is that once you can do that the backswing is essentially over. 

 

You must nail a good setup and P3 to make a good swing. 

 

 

 

The butt of the club has to be pointing at or inside the ball at P3 or you're going to make compensations like yours.

 

Also you're standing up straight - there's virtually zero forward bend in your swing. I can see that you're not the tallest guy - have you considered a shorter driver? 

Edited March 7, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[Londoner]

You're 53, been doing it for 40 years. 

Unless you have time to hit thousand of balls it will always be your got to swing.

That was Pete Cowens advice to me. 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

24 minutes ago, Londoner said:

You're 53, been doing it for 40 years. 

Unless you have time to hit thousand of balls it will always be your got to swing.

That was Pete Cowens advice to me. 

 

Not true though is it? My swing looked like the OPs for the first 20 years of my golfing life. I'd never seen it on camera, but when I did I changed it. It wasn't easy but, man, it was worth it. It just takes a willingness to be uncomfortable. 

[Londoner]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Not true though is it? My swing looked like the OPs for the first 20 years of my golfing life. I'd never seen it on camera, but when I did I changed it. It wasn't easy but, man, it was worth it. It just takes a willingness to be uncomfortable. 

So not 40 years then?

[TheDeanAbides]

21 minutes ago, laneholt said:

Eman,

 

   I am not interested in how you stand with less bend at the waist than other players . You look like a shorter Fred Couples to me and he can play a bit .

   However, I do see how you can play to a 4.8 . Below is what i see at 0:08 at your delivery position——

 

 1—.  The ARC of your RIGHT HAND and ARM is inside the ARC of your LEFT HAND and ARM .

2—-  The  PALM of your DOMINANT RIGHT HAND is facing approx. skyward/ upward (which obviously forced the back of BACK of your LEFT HAND to also face in the same direction - upward! 
3— Your skills at CONTROLLING  your DOMINANT RIGHT HAND in this exemplary manner has forced your RIGHT ELBOW into your RIGHT HIP AREA where it should be !

4 —- All the above has allowed your entire lever system to travel down on an inclined plane / arc to insure the face will enter impact at the inside quadrant of the ball .

 

   Congrats - you have taught your DOMINANT HANDS to perform in this exemplary manner . That is why you are a 4.8 . If you choose to bend over slightly more at the waist nothing will change . You will still use your HANDS correctly as you are now , so why change ???

   I play against low handicappers with  less than beautiful swings who can often  beat my 4 hdcp. butt !

 

Good luck ! 

🤦🏻 He wants to change, Lane, or he wouldn't have posted. If you'd read his original post you'd see that he's not happy with his consistency and I'm not surprised with that move. It's full of compensations. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[TheDeanAbides]

37 minutes ago, Londoner said:

So not 40 years then?

20 years or 40 years make little difference. It's possible to change. 

[TheDeanAbides]

31 minutes ago, laneholt said:

OK - i will never understand why he would want to change , but if he does he can just disregard what I wrote . It is as simple as that ! 
   I just noticed all the good things in his swing . As ALWAYS it is the players choice . 

I understand what you're saying - he has educated hands and gets to impact nicely, but that's despite all that went before. With less compensations and a more efficient move he's going to pick up speed and consistency. There's a reason no tour players look like this. 🙂

[e-man]

Oh man, lots to digest here. Thanks so much guys.  I need to go back and study all the comments.  I am 5’7”, and the driver is stock Ping length at 45.75”. My irons are standard length too.  I try to have good posture and set up with a nice bend at the waist but it’s definitely harder with a longer driver.  Also, I tend to stand up on my back swing so I lose whatever spine angle I have at set up.  I blame that on a bad back (probably from swinging like this for years).  I do compensate a lot and somehow have figured out how to get the club back into position, most of the time.  But like I said, off days are really off and my long list of swing thoughts usually don’t save me. 
 

Anyway, thanks again for all the help.  Lots to think about. 
 

e

[TheDeanAbides]

21 minutes ago, e-man said:

Oh man, lots to digest here. Thanks so much guys.  I need to go back and study all the comments.  I am 5’7”, and the driver is stock Ping length at 45.75”. My irons are standard length too.  I try to have good posture and set up with a nice bend at the waist but it’s definitely harder with a longer driver.  Also, I tend to stand up on my back swing so I lose whatever spine angle I have at set up.  I blame that on a bad back (probably from swinging like this for years).  I do compensate a lot and somehow have figured out how to get the club back into position, most of the time.  But like I said, off days are really off and my long list of swing thoughts usually don’t save me. 
 

Anyway, thanks again for all the help.  Lots to think about. 
 

e

Yeah, that's a mega long driver for someone who's 5' 7". I'm 5' 9" and I play my driver at 44.5". 

[pingfool]

If you’re 4.8 with that swing, I would spend time working on scoring clubs

[596]

I'm not an instructor, but just wanting to learn a tad.  Why is it that no one has mentioned the flat shoulder turn?  His left shoulder never moves off horizonal.  I thought the left shoulder worked down while the right worked up.  Would this not lead to a less flat swing?  Does he have to swing this flat because he has no forward lean at the hips at address, plus the flat shoulder turn?

 

Not meaning to argue but wanting to learn.  I also have a flat swing but its not this flat.

[TheDeanAbides]

15 minutes ago, 596 said:

I'm not an instructor, but just wanting to learn a tad.  Why is it that no one has mentioned the flat shoulder turn?  His left shoulder never moves off horizonal.  I thought the left shoulder worked down while the right worked up.  Would this not lead to a less flat swing?  Does he have to swing this flat because he has no forward lean at the hips at address, plus the flat shoulder turn?

 

Not meaning to argue but wanting to learn.  I also have a flat swing but its not this flat.

I did mention it. 

[straightshot7]

I don't think a flat swing is really your problem.

 

Can we see a face on view?

It looks like you have a lot of swaying and you also appear to cast the club slightly over the top with your arms on the down swing.

Your lower body really isn't doing what it should be doing (clearing, opening) on the downswing. Your arms are outracing everything on the down swing. You probably play a pull fade?

 

You're probably not making even close to a full shoulder turn. Maybe check out George Gankas' vides on making a full turn. 

Your best bet is to find a good local instructor. These issues won't be solved without really deconstructing your swing and doing a lot drills/practice/half swings.

Edited March 7, 2021 by straightshot7

[e-man]

8 hours ago, pingfool said:

If you’re 4.8 with that swing, I would spend time working on scoring clubs

My short game is pretty bad.  But I have to ask what you meant by “if I’m a 4.8 with that swing”?  I assume you agree that it’s really ugly, right?  I was down as low as a 2.8 this summer because I went on a run with some really low rounds.  
 

So one other bit of info.  Not only am I 5’7”, but I have ridiculously long orangutan arms.  I have always played standard length/lie clubs but I am guessing that’s why I have always stood so upright which in turn has always required me to swing the club on a flat plane.  If I were to bend more at the waist, my hands would hang super low and the toe of the club would be way up off the ground.  It’s almost like I fit my swing to the clubs as opposed to fitting the clubs to my swing.  

[pingfool]

1 hour ago, e-man said:

My short game is pretty bad.  But I have to ask what you meant by “if I’m a 4.8 with that swing”?  I assume you agree that it’s really ugly, right?  I was down as low as a 2.8 this summer because I went on a run with some really low rounds.  
 

So one other bit of info.  Not only am I 5’7”, but I have ridiculously long orangutan arms.  I have always played standard length/lie clubs but I am guessing that’s why I have always stood so upright which in turn has always required me to swing the club on a flat plane.  If I were to bend more at the waist, my hands would hang super low and the toe of the club would be way up off the ground.  It’s almost like I fit my swing to the clubs as opposed to fitting the clubs to my swing.  

Clubs that are too long contribute to the flaws you’ve identified. Lesson with a golf professional that can fit your new swing with new clubs might be the place to start 

[TheDeanAbides]

You have the exact swing I had as a kid from playing with adult clubs. You need to be fit with shorter than standard clubs with my flatter lies. It's testament to your skill that you've got that low with that gear.

[aenemated]

7 hours ago, e-man said:

I have ridiculously long orangutan arms.

 

My people.

 

I'm 6' and have similarly ridiculous arms. There's no such thing as a "long sleeve shirt" for me unless I buy two sizes too big at which point I just look stupid. I recall getting measured by my dear friend that makes rad leather jackets - and was making one for me - and telling her my arms were dumb. She didn't believe me till she had me try on her brother's pattern ... that fit my arms perfectly. He's 6'7". 

 

That being said - yeah, definitely get clubs fit to you. I played "off the shelf" for decades but when I did my irons fitting, wound up with 2° flat and 3/4" longer. Doesn't sound like a lot but I do believe it made a significant difference. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by aenemated

[YouDaHamHider]

21 hours ago, e-man said:

Oh man, lots to digest here. Thanks so much guys.  I need to go back and study all the comments.  I am 5’7”, and the driver is stock Ping length at 45.75”. My irons are standard length too.  I try to have good posture and set up with a nice bend at the waist but it’s definitely harder with a longer driver.  Also, I tend to stand up on my back swing so I lose whatever spine angle I have at set up.  I blame that on a bad back (probably from swinging like this for years).  I do compensate a lot and somehow have figured out how to get the club back into position, most of the time.  But like I said, off days are really off and my long list of swing thoughts usually don’t save me. 
 

Anyway, thanks again for all the help.  Lots to think about. 
 

e

Ben Hogan was 5'7'' and had arms so long that people quipped he could tie his shoelaces without bending over. He saw fit to play a 43.25 inch length driver. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by YouDaHamHider