Help me understand how builders achieve proper SW

[JCAG]

I can make a VW on the end of a telephone pole swing D1. I just need the grip to be the weight of an elephant. Now pick that sucker up and swing it. How does it feel?

 

[bnperrone]

16 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

A set made with constant wgt shaft should as ideal have a progression of 7.0 grams pr club shorter.

Off-topic perhaps, but *generally speaking* does this flow down through wedges as well?

 

Also, what would be the guideline for TW progression up through hybrids / DI / fw / driver?

 

TIA and I'm happy to message about this if it's straying too far for this post.

[Howard_Jones]

4 hours ago, bnperrone said:

Off-topic perhaps, but *generally speaking* does this flow down through wedges as well?

 

Also, what would be the guideline for TW progression up through hybrids / DI / fw / driver?

 

TIA and I'm happy to message about this if it's straying too far for this post.

Wedges is not "a set of clubs", its individual clubs, so we cant use this kind of values to judge them.
Hybrids is not really a set either, but we can make them to be, but for both woods and Hybrids we dont say "7 grams pr club", but 12 to 22 grams pr inch, so this aint strait forward, and its individual what progression ratio that fits each player.

DONT SEND PMs ON TECH QUESTION - I DONT REPLY TO PMs unless its from someone accepted for that

[Howard_Jones]

And for the record and other readers who find this topic of interest, the OPs question was:
Help me understand how builders achieve proper SW 

Its about TOLERANCES in ALL stages of the build, so lets start with those, so we get to see where we ends depending on what tolerances we use. The rule of thumb for SW, matches a #3 iron where 2.0 grams is 1.0 SWP, while a #9 needs 2.26 Grams pr SWP, but lets use the lightest and 2.0 grams.

EACH factor on each line has the same influence, so as example a SW value thats off by 0.5, could be a product of either 1 gram head weight thats off, it could be 2* on lie angle thats off and the reason, or we could have a combination of 0.5 grams head wgt and a lie angle thats 1* off as a sum....
 

Tolerance SWP - Tolerance as Grams Head weight - Lie angle - Play length error

Plus minus 1 SWP = Plus minus 2 grams Head weight - 4* change on Lie angle

Plus minus 0.75 SWP - Plus minus 1.5 grams head weight - 3* change on Lie angle - 1/8" on Play length.

Plus minus 0.5 SWP = Plus minus 1.0 grams head weight - 2* change on Lie angle

Plus minus 0.375 SWP - Plus minus 0.,75 Grams head weight - 1.5*on Lie angle - 1/16" on Play length

Plus minus 0.25 SWP = Plus minus 0.5 grams of head weight. - 1* change on Lie angle

Plus minus 0.125 SWP = Plus minus 0.25 grams of head weight. - 0.5* change on Lie angle

Plus minus 0.0625 SWP = Plus minus 0.125 grams of head wight - 0.25* change on lie - (Suggested dry fit tolerances)

 

DRY FIT ERROR EXAMPLE - Including a Grip tolerance of plus minus 3.5 grams (5 grams 1.0 SWP)

Play length 1 mm (1/8" = 3.17 mm) = 0.25 SWP

1* Lie angle = 0.25 SWP

0.5 Grams head weight = 0.25 SWP

3.5 grams grip weight = 0.7 SWP

SUM OFF TARGET = 1.5 SWP or Plus minus 0.75 SWP

BLUEPRINT TOLERANCES

Play length - Better than plus minus 1.0 mm - 0.25 SWP

Head weight - Better than plus minus 0.125 grams - 0.0625 SWP

Lie angles - Better than plus minus 0.25* - 0.0625 SWP
SUM Tolerance - BETTER than plus minus 0.375 SWP or better than 1/3 of a SWP

HOW TO BLUEPRINT A SET OF IRONS TO THE TIGHTEST POSSIBLE TOLERANCES.
(this is NOT what you get from OEM, or most Custom shops, this is high end club making only available a few places, but you can do it yourself if you follow this.)
 

#1 - Prepare / clean / brush the hosel and make it ready for assemble, If Countersink ferrules shall be used, prepare the hosel top for that by drilling with the correct angle tool.

#1 B - Measure loft and lie, and adjust if needed. Use a fishing line in a loop to fix the shaft temporary so measurements of loft and lie can be done. If you dont know what lie angles to be used, set them all to the same (standard).

#2 - Measure head weight, take notes and find the needed tip weights to get the the head weight slope you plan for (7.0 grams is flat SW in 4/8" sets). Hosel drill heads thats above head weight target.

#3 - Measure insert on the heel and toe side of the bore using a caliper (never measure in the center). Adjust if tolerances is above 1.0 mm both ways

#4 - Grind/prepare shaft tips for install (use insert specs)

#5 - Add tip weights to the shaft, put the heads on, and measure play length and mark it for cut using the system you want for grip cap.

(measure at least twice, lift the club of the ruler, replace it and measure again, we might look at the wrong play length the first time)

#6 - Cut shaft on the longer side of the cut mark, grind down to target and check measurements during that grind down job several times.

#7 - Dry fit heads with tip weight and the ferrule attached with tape on the outside of the shaft in its correct position to your target. Fine tune by grinding down tip weights to target.
DO NOT add grips, consider 9 SWP above un-gripped to be "true SW" so if your target with standard grips is D2, dryfit to E1. This way it does not matter what grips we add later, and we dont fool ourself by dry fitting clubs and adjust head weight to tolerances there might be in grip weight. Grip weight variables is a TOTAL weight issue, its got nothing to do with the head side of the club and thats the side we should get "right". DO NOT use split grips either, we might fail and not get the grip fully seated for all who changes "play length" on the SW scale so to avoid that error, dry fit without.

If your plan is to use a "special grip" like MID size or what ever, your should tune up that club during fitting without thinking of SW values and measure when done. Then rip of that grip to get a target value for dryfit without grips so your conversion factor becomes correct. Dont forget to measure "grip insert" vs full length, Grip cap sizes vary even within the same company.

#8 mix 0.5 grams of epoxy pr club, expect the net use to be 0.35 grams equal to the tape you used to hold the ferrule outside the shaft during dry fit. NEVER use epoxy to tune SW values, that epoxy WILL come loose one day and make rattles in the shaft, or for graphite, make a breaking point at the hosel top, or make later shaft changes a messy job (reuse of the shaft)
 

ASSEMBLING THE SET

#9 - Add a drop of epoxy on the shaft tip, and rotate the ferrule over it so some epoxy gets between the shaft and the ferrule. (this would prevent the ferrules from climbing on the shafts).

#10 - Use the actual club head WITH tip weight to push the ferrule into its position. MEASURE "tip to ferrule" and compare to insert with the caliper to make sure its full insert.

#11 - Add epoxy ONLY to the upper 1/3 of the hosel, then in stripes from ferrule to the shaft tip. Hold the head "upside down" and insert the shaft WITH TIP WEIGHT - UP into the head while you rotate it into position. This method should be used to prevent too much epoxy to evacuate into the shaft tip.

#12 - Wipe of excessive epoxy, check shaft alignment (labels up/Down - FLO marks), and put the club to dry. AVOID to rest the shafts against a wall, it might move lie angles up to 0.5 against upright, and if countersink ferrules is used it might cause a opening between the hosel and the ferrule on the heel side (the back of the club)

AFTER CLUBS IS DRIED UP.

#13 - Check loft and lie again, adjust if needed.

#14 - Measure play length, SW and Total weight ex grips. Check CPM

#15 - Weight sort the grips and distribute them to even out total weight progression

#16 - Add build up and or grip tape - The tape area is average 10.0 inches long, make sure you use the same length on all shafts - Build up only to the end, the last layer (the grip tape) long enough to close the butt end, add grips and let dry.

#17 - Measure the play ready clubs total weight and SW values.

#18 - Clean the shafts, heads and grips - Add shaft labels if wanted - deliver...

TAKE NOTES of all components from the start, what you modified and the new specs, and the final specs when the clubs is play ready. This way you have a complete repair reference if needed.

Feel free to copy and share, and ask if anything was unclear.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Righty to Lefty]

14 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

It was your own words i replied to, "

You simply can't feel two swing weight points no matter how sensitive your hands are 
 

• and the next time, check out whos leg and shoes you try to piss on, and keep this kind of pissing contest out of this forum.

If there was a tangible difference between two swing weight points then don't you think there would be an industry standard in the tolerances from all the components where every aspect would be tightly controlled and marketed.  That would literally be part of every company's marketing plan to tout just how tight their tolerances are on their components.  The fact is every component in a golf club has an acceptable tolerance level from the club heads, to the grips, to the shafts, to the moveable weights, to grip tape, to the builder's epoxy, to the scale that is measuring all of these factors so the club building process has acceptable levels of error just like anything else.  I guarantee that if you gave two visually identical clubs to random people with a two swing weight difference and asked them what was the difference between the clubs that maybe 1 out of 10,000 would confidently say that one weighed more than the other. You build clubs and I am certain that you have a tolerance in regards to specs that is acceptable.  Shoot I encourage everyone out there to go to their nearest golf store and pick up two clubs of the same spec and then say which one is the  higher total weight and swing weight and then put them on the scale and verify your hypothesis and report back. If I wasn't in Iraq I would do it myself and video it. 

 

"Check who's leg and shoes you try to piss on...." haha... please don't try to make building a golf club out to be rocket science. I dig it that you are very thorough in your club build process but you are no more thorough than a tour truck working with their touring pros and even they are working within acceptable tolerances.  I am a former Biomed Tech and I assure that tolerances in the medical field would put club building tolerances to shame and still there are acceptable tolerances, even when the consequences could literally kill you. How often do you send off your test and measuring equipment for calibration? I'm sure you aren't using digital equipment to measure club length, and if so how many decimal places is it accurate too? See what I mean?  I appreciate that you take your craft seriously but I assure you that you aren't hitting D.4000000 on every club when someone requests it.  I say this with certainty because everything that you are using in the build process is fraught with error. You are also assuming that all of the error is concentrated on the  extreme end of the club either the grip or the club head end. That error could be spread across the grip, shaft, and club head and would be even more difficult if not impossible to detect. 

[Righty to Lefty]

3 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

And for the record and other readers who find this topic of interest, the OPs question was:
Help me understand how builders achieve proper SW 

Its about TOLERANCES in ALL stages of the build, so lets start with those, so we get to see where we ends depending on what tolerances we use. The rule of thumb for SW, matches a #3 iron where 2.0 grams is 1.0 SWP, while a #9 needs 2.26 Grams pr SWP, but lets use the lightest and 2.0 grams.

EACH factor on each line has the same influence, so as example a SW value thats off by 0.5, could be a product of either 1 gram head weight thats off, it could be 2* on lie angle thats off and the reason, or we could have a combination of 0.5 grams head wgt and a lie angle thats 1* off as a sum....
 

Tolerance SWP - Tolerance as Grams Head weight - Lie angle - Play length error

Plus minus 1 SWP = Plus minus 2 grams Head weight - 4* change on Lie angle

Plus minus 0.75 SWP - Plus minus 1.5 grams head weight - 3* change on Lie angle - 1/8" on Play length.

Plus minus 0.5 SWP = Plus minus 1.0 grams head weight - 2* change on Lie angle

Plus minus 0.375 SWP - Plus minus 0.,75 Grams head weight - 1.5*on Lie angle - 1/16" on Play length

Plus minus 0.25 SWP = Plus minus 0.5 grams of head weight. - 1* change on Lie angle

Plus minus 0.125 SWP = Plus minus 0.25 grams of head weight. - 0.5* change on Lie angle

Plus minus 0.0625 SWP = Plus minus 0.125 grams of head wight - 0.25* change on lie - (Suggested dry fit tolerances)

 

DRY FIT ERROR EXAMPLE - Including a Grip tolerance of plus minus 3.5 grams (5 grams 1.0 SWP)

Play length 1 mm (1/8" = 3.17 mm) = 0.25 SWP

1* Lie angle = 0.25 SWP

0.5 Grams head weight = 0.25 SWP

3.5 grams grip weight = 0.7 SWP

SUM OFF TARGET = 1.5 SWP or Plus minus 0.75 SWP

BLUEPRINT TOLERANCES

Play length - Better than plus minus 1.0 mm - 0.25 SWP

Head weight - Better than plus minus 0.125 grams - 0.0625 SWP

Lie angles - Better than plus minus 0.25* - 0.0625 SWP
SUM Tolerance - BETTER than plus minus 0.375 SWP or better than 1/3 of a SWP

HOW TO BLUEPRINT A SET OF IRONS TO THE TIGHTEST POSSIBLE TOLERANCES.
(this is NOT what you get from OEM, or most Custom shops, this is high end club making only available a few places, but you can do it yourself if you follow this.)
 

#1 - Prepare / clean / brush the hosel and make it ready for assemble, If Countersink ferrules shall be used, prepare the hosel top for that by drilling with the correct angle tool.

#1 B - Measure loft and lie, and adjust if needed. Use a fishing line in a loop to fix the shaft temporary so measurements of loft and lie can be done. If you dont know what lie angles to be used, set them all to the same (standard).

#2 - Measure head weight, take notes and find the needed tip weights to get the the head weight slope you plan for (7.0 grams is flat SW in 4/8" sets). Hosel drill heads thats above head weight target.

#3 - Measure insert on the heel and toe side of the bore using a caliper (never measure in the center). Adjust if tolerances is above 1.0 mm both ways

#4 - Grind/prepare shaft tips for install (use insert specs)

#5 - Add tip weights to the shaft, put the heads on, and measure play length and mark it for cut using the system you want for grip cap.

(measure at least twice, lift the club of the ruler, replace it and measure again, we might look at the wrong play length the first time)

#6 - Cut shaft on the longer side of the cut mark, grind down to target and check measurements during that grind down job several times.

#7 - Dry fit heads with tip weight and the ferrule attached with tape on the outside of the shaft in its correct position to your target. Fine tune by grinding down tip weights to target.
DO NOT add grips, consider 9 SWP above un-gripped to be "true SW" so if your target with standard grips is D2, dryfit to E1. This way it does not matter what grips we add later, and we dont fool ourself by dry fitting clubs and adjust head weight to tolerances there might be in grip weight. Grip weight variables is a TOTAL weight issue, its got nothing to do with the head side of the club and thats the side we should get "right". DO NOT use split grips either, we might fail and not get the grip fully seated for all who changes "play length" on the SW scale so to avoid that error, dry fit without.

If your plan is to use a "special grip" like MID size or what ever, your should tune up that club during fitting without thinking of SW values and measure when done. Then rip of that grip to get a target value for dryfit without grips so your conversion factor becomes correct. Dont forget to measure "grip insert" vs full length, Grip cap sizes vary even within the same company.

#8 mix 0.5 grams of epoxy pr club, expect the net use to be 0.35 grams equal to the tape you used to hold the ferrule outside the shaft during dry fit. NEVER use epoxy to tune SW values, that epoxy WILL come loose one day and make rattles in the shaft, or for graphite, make a breaking point at the hosel top, or make later shaft changes a messy job (reuse of the shaft)
 

ASSEMBLING THE SET

#9 - Add a drop of epoxy on the shaft tip, and rotate the ferrule over it so some epoxy gets between the shaft and the ferrule. (this would prevent the ferrules from climbing on the shafts).

#10 - Use the actual club head WITH tip weight to push the ferrule into its position. MEASURE "tip to ferrule" and compare to insert with the caliper to make sure its full insert.

#11 - Add epoxy ONLY to the upper 1/3 of the hosel, then in stripes from ferrule to the shaft tip. Hold the head "upside down" and insert the shaft WITH TIP WEIGHT - UP into the head while you rotate it into position. This method should be used to prevent too much epoxy to evacuate into the shaft tip.

#12 - Wipe of excessive epoxy, check shaft alignment (labels up/Down - FLO marks), and put the club to dry. AVOID to rest the shafts against a wall, it might move lie angles up to 0.5 against upright, and if countersink ferrules is used it might cause a opening between the hosel and the ferrule on the heel side (the back of the club)

AFTER CLUBS IS DRIED UP.

#13 - Check loft and lie again, adjust if needed.

#14 - Measure play length, SW and Total weight ex grips. Check CPM

#15 - Weight sort the grips and distribute them to even out total weight progression

#16 - Add build up and or grip tape - The tape area is average 10.0 inches long, make sure you use the same length on all shafts - Build up only to the end, the last layer (the grip tape) long enough to close the butt end, add grips and let dry.

#17 - Measure the play ready clubs total weight and SW values.

#18 - Clean the shafts, heads and grips - Add shaft labels if wanted - deliver...

TAKE NOTES of all components from the start, what you modified and the new specs, and the final specs when the clubs is play ready. This way you have a complete repair reference if needed.

Feel free to copy and share, and ask if anything was unclear.

How dare you add shaft labels after the whole process is complete...you have just ruined the specs of the whole build !! What are the tolerances on shaft label weight and the glue used to adhere them to the shaft and are you making sure that they are put PRECISELY in the same location in relation to the grips so that they don't upset the balance of all of your due diligence in the steps prior?!! Just giving you a hard time but I truly dig it that you go through this much in your club builds to get as close as possible to your customer's requests but I had to give you a hard time because the medical field grinds over every detail and would immediately pick up on that and note it as introducing error.  

[Valtiel]

19 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You can feel swing weight I assure you...if you add enough weight.  I guarantee you that if you picked up a 1 pound weight and another one with an extra 2 to 4 grams on it you can't reliably tell the difference. You do have a better chance of feeling a difference dynamically while the club is being swung because you are generating force and the club is thus trying to pull away from you, but you are highly unlikely to feel any difference statically. That is why swing weight should be dramatically changed  from say D4 to E4 or C4 because that is a 20 gram change and will be much more likely give the golfer a way better picture of their swing weight preference than testing out D4 and D6 respectively.  I gradually increased the swing weight of my clubs until I found my preference...which ended up being F5.  My advice is to go to an extreme in either direction and then fine tune it back from there until you find the sweet spot. 

 

I'm even going to entertain getting into a pissing contest on here if you don't believe in the validity of the measure of how the weight is distributed along the club's components having relevance...which is basically what your statement said. Especially after you said only a scale can feel it...then contradicted that statement in the very next sentence. I challenge you to hit a B4 and and F4 swing weight club of the same total weight and then state that there is no difference. I assure you they are very different in how they will perform for each golfer.  I feel that total weight is the most important factor to a club, followed closely by swing weight because if you do not have a sense of the CoG of the club as it moves around you in space you will always struggle and the total weight is the main factor in setting the golfer's tempo.   

I think you're misunderstanding/misrepresenting what Howard was saying and you likely are agreeing on more than you are disagreeing on here. In saying that "no one can feel swingweight, only the scale can", he isn't saying there is no difference between B4 and F4, but that those letters and numbers are only relevant within certain parameters. As an example, Bryson's driver at one point measured B9 because of the giant grips he was using, but that is only relevant if you understand that is where the "B9" came from and that it wasn't from subtracting 12g+ from the head, two methods that would produce the same swingweight but have wildly different feel. I'm sure you won't disagree with that, and that is what I interpreted Howard's comment as addressing; the fact that swingweight can be meaningless on its own. I believe English is not Howard's first language either, so take that into consideration. 

I would also disagree with the comment about not being able to feel two swingweight points. Most can't but MANY can, and it all depends on where those two points are coming from, but that is a different discussion. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Valtiel

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

How dare you add shaft labels after the whole process is complete...you have just ruined the specs of the whole build !! What are the tolerances on shaft label weight and the glue used to adhere them to the shaft and are you making sure that they are put PRECISELY in the same location in relation to the grips so that they don't upset the balance of all of your due diligence in the steps prior?!! Just giving you a hard time but I truly dig it that you go through this much in your club builds to get as close as possible to your customer's requests but I had to give you a hard time because the medical field grinds over every detail and would immediately pick up on that and note it as introducing error.  

For the record, i NEVER added shaft labels to a single shaft in my lifetime, except for those clubs i made at Mitchel Golf Equipement Institute, those clubs was made for educational purpose only, but some want labels, and if they do, thats how it should be done.

Seems you give the impression that you build clubs to tighter tolerances than me, i think the readers deserves to know who you are, and that you show us your credentials and customer list, and post some detailed club spec sheets from your builds so we can settle this game of yours once and for all.

ahhh, i get it, you have NONE in this field, then show some respect for the most serious golf tech forum there is, and one of its largest contributors the last 11 year of those 16 years its been on the net.

And since you have no clue about who i am, or what "tolerances" and build methods actually used on the tour, you are not close to qualified to a statement about that part either, because i could never make clubs the way SOME Tour vans does, because thats NOT the way high end club making is done,

If you want to know the difference, read this tread...

Your statement who started this was. "You simply can't feel two swing weight points no matter how sensitive your hands are"  but thats the same as saying nobody can notice 4 grams of head wgt change who is wrong, and if you still think it dont matter, read this tread, written by a player on the level ive been working with as a professional.
 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Righty to Lefty]

1 hour ago, Howard_Jones said:

For the record, i NEVER added shaft labels to a single shaft in my lifetime, except for those clubs i made at Mitchel Golf Equipement Institute, those clubs was made for educational purpose only, but some want labels, and if they do, thats how it should be done.

Seems you give the impression that you build clubs to tighter tolerances than me, i think the readers deserves to know who you are, and that you show us your credentials and customer list, and post some detailed club spec sheets from your builds so we can settle this game of yours once and for all.

ahhh, i get it, you have NONE in this field, then show some respect for the most serious golf tech forum there is, and one of its largest contributors the last 11 year of those 16 years its been on the net.

And since you have no clue about who i am, or what "tolerances" and build methods actually used on the tour, you are not close to qualified to a statement about that part either, because i could never make clubs the way SOME Tour vans does, because thats NOT the way high end club making is done,

If you want to know the difference, read this tread...

Your statement who started this was. "You simply can't feel two swing weight points no matter how sensitive your hands are"  but thats the same as saying nobody can notice 4 grams of head wgt change who is wrong, and if you still think it dont matter, read this tread, written by a player on the level ive been working with as a professional.
 

 

At multiple times during my replies I asserted that I appreciate your dedication to the club building craft.  I build my clubs for me and not as my business though I am 1000% certain that I could grasp and excel in any aspect of building clubs and would give every club I touched the same respect that I give calibrating a defibrillator knowing that it represented me and I was responsible.  If I am willing to sign my name to a piece of equipment that can easily kill a person, I promise you that I would vouch for my attention to detail on assembling a golf club because golf is my passion in all aspects and I would give any club I worked on the same attention that I would give my own and beyond. You build clubs as precisely as you possibly can and that is great but the fact is you simply aren't building clubs to 100% accurate specs because it simply isn't possible because there are too many variables. 

 

I used be a fitter for Tour Lock / Opti Vibe and was able to create the widest variety in swing weight and total weight possible as the weights go from 2 grams to as high as 150 grams and two to four grams simply does not change the playing characteristics of the club and if it affected performance it would be measurable and their would be limits set by the governing bodies. I will give you a silly example that is completely relevant. You have never heard someone pick up a kitten...roughly the same weight of a golf club...then put it down and pick up the kitten after it took a couple sips of water and noted how heavy it got. Its just like no one notices that a person has gained weight until they have gained a noticeable amount of weight. If I put an extra credit card in your wallet you would have no clue it was in there until you saw it or I told you it was there. A club being 1 or 2 swing weights off is not of any significance given the total weight of the club on the whole. Others in the thread have implied the same exact thing already and if it did have a major impact swing weight fitting would be main stream and part of any fitting. Incremental changes don't have a large effect until you are approaching the margins.  Olympic weight lifting is a perfect example.  1 kilo increments don't make much of a difference until the athletes are reaching their limits of performance.  1 kilo means nothing when they are operating well within their threshold. Now if they are at their limit of performance then 1 kilo or a couple grams would mean everything and have a dramatic affect on performance.  If you are saying that D4 to D6 is at the limit then your assertion would have more validity. 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 I will give you a silly example that is completely relevant. You have never heard someone pick up a kitten...roughly the same weight of a golf club...then put it down and pick up the kitten after it took a couple sips of water and noted how heavy it got.

 

Actually it's not relevant at all.  Why do you keep trying to use a static feel as a valid way to judge the feel of a club?  The static properties and distinctions are meaningless.  You're not trying to accelerate that cat up to 90+ mph at the end of a stick (at least I hope you're not).  The dynamic feel during an actual swing and how that changes is the only thing that matters when talking about club weight (either total weight or head weight feel).   It's just as pointless as the arguments concerning the difference between a player wearing a watch or not - although for slightly different reasons.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Stuart_G

[mogc60]

48 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

At multiple times during my replies I asserted that I appreciate your dedication to the club building craft.  I build my clubs for me and not as my business though I am 1000% certain that I could grasp and excel in any aspect of building clubs and would give every club I touched the same respect that I give calibrating a defibrillator knowing that it represented me and I was responsible.  If I am willing to sign my name to a piece of equipment that can easily kill a person, I promise you that I would vouch for my attention to detail on assembling a golf club because golf is my passion in all aspects and I would give any club I worked on the same attention that I would give my own and beyond. You build clubs as precisely as you possibly can and that is great but the fact is you simply aren't building clubs to 100% accurate specs because it simply isn't possible because there are too many variables. 

 

I used be a fitter for Tour Lock / Opti Vibe and was able to create the widest variety in swing weight and total weight possible as the weights go from 2 grams to as high as 150 grams and two to four grams simply does not change the playing characteristics of the club and if it affected performance it would be measurable and their would be limits set by the governing bodies. I will give you a silly example that is completely relevant. You have never heard someone pick up a kitten...roughly the same weight of a golf club...then put it down and pick up the kitten after it took a couple sips of water and noted how heavy it got. Its just like no one notices that a person has gained weight until they have gained a noticeable amount of weight. If I put an extra credit card in your wallet you would have no clue it was in there until you saw it or I told you it was there. A club being 1 or 2 swing weights off is not of any significance given the total weight of the club on the whole. Others in the thread have implied the same exact thing already and if it did have a major impact swing weight fitting would be main stream and part of any fitting. Incremental changes don't have a large effect until you are approaching the margins.  Olympic weight lifting is a perfect example.  1 kilo increments don't make much of a difference until the athletes are reaching their limits of performance.  1 kilo means nothing when they are operating well within their threshold. Now if they are at their limit of performance then 1 kilo or a couple grams would mean everything and have a dramatic affect on performance.  If you are saying that D4 to D6 is at the limit then your assertion would have more validity. 

Unfortunately this is false. Small changes in weight to a golf club, especially on the grip or head end are felt and do make a huge difference. 2 grams to the head is noticeable and changes the feel of the club during the swing. 2 swingweight points is a huge difference.  Some players are more in tune to small changes than others but to just call small weight changes irrelevant is ridiculous. To have consistency throughout the set those 1-2 gram differences do matter. 

[bnperrone]

Flat-earthers will never accept that they're wrong, either. 

[mjf34g]

If you had never seen that build sheet you would have never noticed the difference. The sw's are within a point.  The difference is imperceptible.   

[HSTNGolfer]

29 minutes ago, mogc60 said:

Unfortunately this is false. Small changes in weight to a golf club, especially on the grip or head end are felt and do make a huge difference. 2 grams to the head is noticeable and changes the feel of the club during the swing. 2 swingweight points is a huge difference.  Some players are more in tune to small changes than others but to just call small weight changes irrelevant is ridiculous. To have consistency throughout the set those 1-2 gram differences do matter. 

This ^^^

 

For those who are skeptical, put impact tape on the clubface and then use lead tape, in 2g increments,  to add weight to the head. The consistency of on-center contact moves around even with as little as 2g, but definitely 4g is noticeable for most golfers. I have a Maltby KE4S 6i head with removeable weight screws (2g, 4g, 6g, 8g), so it is very easy to set the club up with say 2x 2g weights (nominal is 2x4g) and then incrementally add more weight. I have done this dozens of times with players ranging from low single digits to 20+ handicaps. The on-center hit consistency changes based on head weight for all of the golfers I have tried this with. My guess is that it is because the weight changes are applied about 37.5" (95cm) away from the butt end of the club and that club is moving at 80-90 mph.  That being said, none of them could blindly tell the difference is static weight with a 2g change. 

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You have never heard someone pick up a kitten...roughly the same weight of a golf club...then put it down and pick up the kitten after it took a couple sips of water and noted how heavy it got. 

 

28 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Actually it's not relevant at all.  Why do you keep trying to use a static feel as a valid way to judge the feel of a club?  The static properties and distinctions are meaningless.  The dynamic feel during an actual swing and how that changes is the only thing that matters when talking about club weight (either total weight or head weight feel).   It's just as pointless as the arguments concerning the difference between a player wearing a watch or not - although for slightly different reasons.

Yeah I agree with Stuart, and it is bizarre that you seem simultaneously smart enough to draw comparisons to superficially similar things, but not enough to recognize that they are indeed ONLY superficially similar. 

In addition to what Stuart said above about static feel.....we know what we think a kitten should weigh and what a glass of water should weigh and we are NEVER put in a position where we would need to consider:

A) What it it would feel to perform a golf swing-like motion with either one of them or...
B) Whether or not one of them was too heavy or too light

The only reason you would notice anything at all about the difference between a kitten and a glass of water is if it fell significantly outside the window of your expectations. Then you have a golf club, an object which most people have no clue what it would/should weigh and appears like it could be extreme in either direction. You then likely hear at some point that the weight of this object is important and that decreasing it (but not too much!) could gain speed and distance, increasing it (not too much though!) could gain consistency and more fairways, heavier and lighter shafts for different purposes, heavier grips for counterweighting etc etc etc. You then consider all of these things throughout a complex kinematic sequence and how it feels in your hands/wrists/arms and what it feels like to whip towards and strike a hard object and on and on and on. 

The point being that we think (and sometimes obsess) about the weight of our clubs and are made to experiment with exactly how weight changes impact feel and performance. We are paying a world of difference in attention to that over a kitten and a glass of water, comparing them is pretty silly. 

[mogc60]

I have been on WRX for a long time, not always active but it’s been my resource for knowledge for a long time. I ran a very successful club repair and club making business as a club pro for 17 years.  I learned a lot of tricks of the trade during that time and felt I offered all the extras and took extra steps to ensure my customers clubs were accurate and consistent. A lot of my time doing this was before launch monitors and all the data and resources we have now. Trial and error was my passion and I tested and tried so many options, weighting, balance, length, loft. Etc. There was a time that I was a very good player as well, very competitive locally, and held many course records through the years with 3 that are still standing. One 59 and one 60 on that list. In all my experience both in the shop and on the golf course, I developed a great knowledge of what works. My knowledge wasn’t always data driven it was real world driven. Back to WRX...I have always appreciated and respected the wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum. Valtiel, Stuart, Howard, Nessism....and many, many others on here have taught me so much. I see responses from certain people on here and I read their posts to learn. These guys have so much knowledge and the detail they provide has been wonderful for me. I’ve learned so much from them. I have never met any of these people but I have the utmost respect for them and their expertise. Even if I didn’t necessarily agree with certain points of view I wouldn’t argue with them. I would take their point of view or experience and file it away. I have many files on my iPad with screenshots and posts from responses here that are my clubmaking library. I appreciate all the guys on here that take the time to share their experience and knowledge to help others and all they’ve taught me. 

[JCAG]

Understand something about specifications. When a spec say + or - one swingweight in a set of irons that the lowest SS of D0 and the highest of D2, is within the + or - one swingweight. If the spec is + or - 1/2SW then D0 to D1 is within spec.

 

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

On 4/7/2021 at 4:40 PM, mogc60 said:

I have been on WRX for a long time, not always active but it’s been my resource for knowledge for a long time. I ran a very successful club repair and club making business as a club pro for 17 years.  I learned a lot of tricks of the trade during that time and felt I offered all the extras and took extra steps to ensure my customers clubs were accurate and consistent. A lot of my time doing this was before launch monitors and all the data and resources we have now. Trial and error was my passion and I tested and tried so many options, weighting, balance, length, loft. Etc. There was a time that I was a very good player as well, very competitive locally, and held many course records through the years with 3 that are still standing. One 59 and one 60 on that list. In all my experience both in the shop and on the golf course, I developed a great knowledge of what works. My knowledge wasn’t always data driven it was real world driven. Back to WRX...I have always appreciated and respected the wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum. Valtiel, Stuart, Howard, Nessism....and many, many others on here have taught me so much. I see responses from certain people on here and I read their posts to learn. These guys have so much knowledge and the detail they provide has been wonderful for me. I’ve learned so much from them. I have never met any of these people but I have the utmost respect for them and their expertise. Even if I didn’t necessarily agree with certain points of view I wouldn’t argue with them. I would take their point of view or experience and file it away. I have many files on my iPad with screenshots and posts from responses here that are my clubmaking library. I appreciate all the guys on here that take the time to share their experience and knowledge to help others and all they’ve taught me. 

I agree with everything that you said but I also disagree with the assertion that they shouldn't be questioned.  I was told that I need to "respect who I'm responding to" because they have been on the forum for a long time and that is the wrong way to get about it if the goal of this forum is forward progress and understanding.  I have been in other forums and that atmosphere does not lead to forward progress. Constantly questioning and evaluating information is what leads to lasting forward progress and innovation and not being dismissive. Multiple times during my replies I stated that I completely appreciate their attention to detail in regards to their craft but just because I haven't been posting on this site until recently doesn't mean that I a new to this.  I am a former high level athlete that is an Exercise Science and Electrical Engineering major that also plays golf right and left handed to a single digit handicap, that also was a fitter for the Tour Lock and Opti Vibe that have the single biggest variance available in total weight and swing weight on the market, so I have been testing these variables for a decade now.  I was epoxying weights used to balance car tires to golf clubs to figure out how much it would take to move the CoG a few millimeters and how it affected the performance of the club for me.  I found that it took a movement of 15 to 25% of the clubs head mass to actually move the CoG and that is inline with what Not allowed because of spam and others have noted in talking about Edel's moveable weights on their wedges.  I was initially excited to see them, even though they aren't even offered in lefty, until I saw that the weights aren't heavy enough to actually move or bias the CoG so their only use is for swing weight because the weights aren't heavy enough and they are confined to too small of a space.  I literally had to put 40 grams of weight in the extreme toe of a wedge to move the CoG 2 millimeters!  It actually served two purposes which were I found out that I am a high swing weight player, and I found out that it absolutely moved and tightened up the strike, but it took quite a bit of weight to get there. The Tour Lock and Opti Vibe weights were also eye opening because I had full control of the total weight  and the swing weight and could literally make up any combination that the golfer wanted and through that I found that the total weight is the most important component of the club, then swing weight because total weight sets tempo, and swing weight adjust the intensity of feeling the club move around you in space and these parameters are paramount to all others including grip, club head, and shaft. My golf clubs look like a science experiment because I was determined to understand why I hated off the rack clubs.  I was trashing $200 dollar per club Miura irons in Afghanisitan running these tests because I figured "what good are they to me if one foot into the takeaway I could no longer feel the club head." Once I found my preferred specs I sent them off and had them restored to their old glory and put the weights on there in a much more proper way and I will never sell those clubs for any amount of money because they taught me so much. My poor Cleveland Altitude irons have also been through the ringer getting weights epoxied to, and holes and hotmelt put in  and on them over the years also but they flat out work, but it took me going against the grain and common thinking to figure out what works for me.  

 

On 4/7/2021 at 3:30 PM, mogc60 said:

Unfortunately this is false. Small changes in weight to a golf club, especially on the grip or head end are felt and do make a huge difference. 2 grams to the head is noticeable and changes the feel of the club during the swing. 2 swingweight points is a huge difference.  Some players are more in tune to small changes than others but to just call small weight changes irrelevant is ridiculous. To have consistency throughout the set those 1-2 gram differences do matter. 

Unfortunately the physics disagrees.. and the math and science are undefeated. Two grams of weight added to a 2 pound object does not have a large impact on the force generated even at the same speed. It is also not enough mass to move CoG so any performance benefit or detriment would be minimal and not perceptible because it is not operating at a limit of performance.  The best analogy is the Olympic weight lifter that is capable of lifting a max of 200 kilos lifting 100 and 101 kilos in successive lifts.  Even an athlete who's job is to move weight wouldn't feel much of a difference because they aren't operating near their max capacity so that one extra kilo is "technically useless." Now that one kilo is " technically significant" when the athlete is operating at near max capacity. The one kilo increase from 200 kilos to 201 is a breaking point in performance between success and failure.  The athlete will then have expend tremendous amounts of energy and effort to be able to lift that one extra kilo of weight.  That being said if D4 swing weight is at your threshold the D6 swing weight will be significant, but if it isn't, then it is insignificant. Most golfer's simply haven't had exposure to a wide variety of swing weight and total weight options so they truly don't know what they want, only what the industry tells them is standard.  That is precisely why female professional golfers hit the ball much more efficiently than the men do.  It is because the clubs are operating much more closely to their max capacity than they do for the men who have much more strength on average.  

Edited April 9, 2021 by Righty to Lefty

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Unfortunately the physics disagrees.. and the math and science are undefeated.

 

Only if you use it correctly - which you are not.   None of your previous analogies had had any remote resemblance to the physics of a golf swing - and that hasn't changed in this last post.   On top of that your argument has been about what the player can or can not feel, not about how it might effect the resulting club head speed.  So again your attempts to apply the physics in not even in the right context to support your original claims.

 

And there is no valid concept of a "max capacity" for a club in the context of fitting or a swing.  That's 100% about getting the most out of the players swing, not out of the club.

[Righty to Lefty]

32 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Only if you use it correctly - which you are not.   None of your previous analogies had had any remote resemblance to the physics of a golf swing - and that hasn't changed in this last post.   On top of that your argument has been about what the player can or can not feel, not about how it might effect the resulting club head speed.  So again your attempts to apply the physics in not even in the right context to support your original claims.

 

And there is no valid concept of a "max capacity" for a club in the context of fitting or a swing.  That's 100% about getting the most out of the players swing, not out of the club.

I feel that the Olympic weight lifter example explains it perfectly. I have been hitting clubs ranging from B0 to G9 and higher for over 6 years now throughout my many tests and experiments fitting myself for clubs and also working with other golfers.  How many times have you hit a club that was even out of the D swing weight range?  I would wager you have little if any experience with any swing weight outside of the "normal" range that all OEM's fall into.  Nevertheless I hope that you all find what you are seeking in your own personal golf journeys.  

[Stuart_G]

42 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I feel that the Olympic weight lifter example explains it perfectly.

 

I don't doubt you do, you wouldn't have put it out there if you didn't.   But claiming it and being able to prove it are not the same thing.

 

 

Quote

 

How many times have you hit a club that was even out of the D swing weight range?  I would wager you have little if any experience with any swing weight outside of the "normal" range that all OEM's fall into

 

All the time.  I haven't hit or really played a stock club (including putters) in over 10 years.   I've spent lots of time (and rolls and rolls of lead tape) dialing in (and re-dialing in) my head weights over the last 15 years as the swing (and age) have changed.  My drivers, woods and hybrids are currently in the c7-c9 range.   My irons are progressively weighted from more typical swing weights in the wedges to play about 1/2 sw pt lighter for each club as they get longer.  For any given club, I can easily feel the difference in 2 sw pts in a side by side test.  Now, I can play a range of swing weights that's greater than what I can feel (although not by a lot) but the whole point if this discussion is about what a person can feel.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Stuart_G

[mogc60]

Two days ago I put in new shafts in my Srixon H85 hybrids. Hit three balls with the 16 degree yesterday and immediately FELT there wasn’t enough headweight. Added 3 inches of lead tape and could FEEL the difference in the takeaway of the next swing and the FEEL of the club was night and day different. I didn’t need to strap a car tire to it to find out it defeated the purpose of the club. I dial in every club I use with lead tape and typically it doesn’t take more than a few grams to achieve this. Head weight is normally what I add but I also have 5 extra wraps of tape under my grips and use heavier and stiffer shafts, so typically the headweight FEEL during the swing is lessened. Weightlifting, car tires, rabbits and glasses of water are not golf clubs. None of those analogies have any correlation to swinging a golf club or the FEEL involved with doing so. Smart you may be but your application of your physics is flawed severely as it relates to golf equipment. 

[bnperrone]

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

That is precisely why female professional golfers hit the ball much more efficiently than the men do.  It is because the clubs are operating much more closely to their max capacity than they do for the men who have much more strength on average.  

Oh, that's why they hit it farther pound-for-pound? It's the way the clubs operate and not because of different swing types, flexibility levels, AoA, individual player talent, etc?

 

If that idea was even remotely sane, don't you think that in this day and age the men's equipment would be tweaked to get closer to that max capacity point?

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

17 hours ago, bnperrone said:

Oh, that's why they hit it farther pound-for-pound? It's the way the clubs operate and not because of different swing types, flexibility levels, AoA, individual player talent, etc?

 

If that idea was even remotely sane, don't you think that in this day and age the men's equipment would be tweaked to get closer to that max capacity point?

 

 

Yes that is precisely why they hit it more efficiently than the men do.  Women are not athletically superior to Men and your statement about different swing types, flexibility, and talent are wide ranging but the equipment that they are using is not because ALL OEM's build clubs within a safe spec range so that the masses will buy them so despite all the variables that you mentioned one of them is remains pretty consistent...the clubs. I stated previously that the heft of a stock golf club is much closer to a female limit than it is to a male athletes limit. Also the differences between men's and women's golf clubs is not significant as the only real difference is length so that fact validates my statement that females are more efficient. It used to be shaft weight also but now there are a ton of light and ultralite graphite shafts in play in men's clubs. An average male is also likely twice as strong as a female and thus when both athletes pick up a club, a 1.5 ish pound golf club it will feel heavier to her than it will for the male because it will take up a larger percentage of her available for strength because she is half as strong as her male counter part.  In essence the golf club in her hands feels much " heavier" and she will lever against the weight of the club much better than her male counterpart and this is a very reliable timing mechanism.  That is precisely why the females hit it more efficiently than the men.   

 

The heavier the club is, the more efficient the body will be at creating leverage...until you hit the point of diminishing returns but that must be tested and each golfer will be different.  There is a reason why axes are not light in weight and that is because it forces the user to create leverage and brace against the weight of the club.  Yeah you would swing a 500 gram ax faster...but it would take you all day to cut the tree down because you aren't creating much leverage.   A golf club is only different in application but the principles are the same where your clubs should match your strength level and force your body to brace against the force being generated to create leverage.  Absolutely the men's clubs should be heavier, but that doesn't sell clubs to the masses where speed drives the market. This is no different than any stick and ball sport such as baseball or tennis. 

 

A tennis pros racket is MUCH heavier than the racket sold to the masses. The club must provide mass to lever against in relation to the athletes strength and this is actually much more efficient than using lighter components.  If you tried to standardize professional baseball player's bats to one spec, they would revolt I assure you!! I swung the heaviest available aluminum bat...in the 7th grade...so when I was forced to hit the same spec bat in college I had to really work hard to drive the ball to the opposite field because the bat was too light...whereas at my strength levels in the 7th grade it was perfect.  Then when I played semi pro ball and we were using wooden bats that had no regulations I realized just how important the total weight and "swing weight" of the bat is.  A couple extra ounces added to the barrel end of the bat made a world of difference and made it come alive.  I often draw from other sports and relate them to golf because the fundamentals of force production and speed are relevant across all sports. 

 

Why do pros use heavy racquets?

"Two reasons: stability and power. The heavier the racket is, the more power it has and the more stable it is through contact. Yes the ball will come off comparative harder, but there is also less distortion, displacement etc of the frame at contact so the shot is in fact easier to control."

How heavy is Roger Federer's racket?

12.5 ounces

"Federer, for what it's worth, is using a racket that weighs in north of 12.5 ounces -- far too heavy for the average club-level player or even high-level junior for that matter." 300 grams (or 10.6 ounces) is an average weight for a racket. Less than 285 grams (10 ounces) is considered light. More than 310 grams (or 11 ounces) is considered heavy.

 

 

 Federer's racket is 57 grams  or 18% heavier than what is marketed to the masses. Golf clubs should be no different and also goes back to the initial context of this thread that a couple grams of weight is not significant until it is operating near the margin or limit of performance but each person will be different in what that limit is therefore very few should be swinging off the rack clubs.  

[bnperrone]

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Also the differences between men's and women's golf clubs is not significant as the only real difference is length so that fact validates my statement that females are more efficient.

Of all the flamboyantly stupid comments made, this takes the cake.

[ignitewvu]

On 4/3/2021 at 7:37 PM, Smokey227 said:

When you did your fitting did you use midsize grips? Sounds like they baselined your swingweight with a standard grip and did not adjust due to the heavier grips. Most builders ignore swingweight changes due to grip weight. I swingweight all my clubs with no grip and just subtract for standard grip weight. 

 

No most builders do not, have you watched any of the TM tour truck videos with Trottie & Wade....they are considered the best in the game.  They SW with the exact Grip & build up wraps on.

 

This is a common WRX things that grips don't effect SW when they do not only for people like me, but apparently every single pro that walks into the TM Tour Truck.

 

Now some guys might not notice the 5 gram change on the grip, but others will notice it in their swings.  Personally I can tell when a clubs is off of my desired swing weight when it goes +2sw points either heavy or light.

Edited April 9, 2021 by ignitewvu

[DaveGoodrich]

2 hours ago, ignitewvu said:

 

No most builders do not, have you watched any of the TM tour truck videos with Trottie & Wade....they are considered the best in the game.  They SW with the exact Grip & build up wraps on.

 

This is a common WRX things that grips don't effect SW when they do not only for people like me, but apparently every single pro that walks into the TM Tour Truck.

 

Now some guys might not notice the 5 gram change on the grip, but others will notice it in their swings.  Personally I can tell when a clubs is off of my desired swing weight when it goes +2sw points either heavy or light.

I assume that if tour van knows a player likes a specific swing weight, using a specific grip, then they use that grip when swing weighting that player's clubs.  This is probably more about matching existing clubs, or matching clubs used in fitting sessions etc., not about hitting a specific SW number.  That doesn't mean an OEM does it this way when building a set for an unknown customer. 

 

Swing weighting using a standard grip (or no grip, as Howard recommends), makes total sense.  It takes the variability in the grip weights, and grip cap thickness, out of the equation when getting the head weights right.  It would be interesting to pull the grips off the OPs clubs, and see whether the swing weight range across the set tightens up. 

 

But some customers do know (or think they know) what swing weight they want, with a specific grip, like the tour van example above.  All else being equal, a club built to D1 with a 60 gram grip will have a head weight 4 grams heavier than a club built to D1 with a 50 gram grip.  That will be noticeable to many players.   So when an order is placed, it should be made clear to everyone whether the swing weight the shop will build is to be based on the customer-specified grip, or on a "standard" 50g grip.    

Edited April 9, 2021 by DaveGoodrich

[Stuart_G]

How you treat the grip when adjusting swing weigh during a build really depends on how you came up with the target swing weight value in the first place.

 

If you go to the range with a club that has a mid-sized grip, add lead tape to feel,  place it on a scale and get (e.g.) D3.   Then your target for a duplicate build should be D3 with the midsize grip.  Which is typically how the pros will get fit and their head weights dialed in.    But you could  also take the grip off and get a different target with no grip,  or you can adjust the value for a 50 gm grip and call that the "true swing weight" of the club.   

 

Doesn't really matter all that much as long as you're consistent - although measuring and tracking w/o any grip is going is going to give the most consistent results.  You generally want to avoid any variations due to different grip manufacturing tolerances - and more importantly the effect of the grip on the playing length that the scale 'sees" (which can be longer than what your hands use as a playing length thanks to the various grip cap dome shapes.

 

The important thing is that the swing weight value is ONLY valid for the grip weight that was used when it was measured.   You can't (or shouldn't) change grips and continue to think the same swing weight value is good if it was measured with the grip.   Or that you can adjust the grip weight to get the club to your desired value when the head weight isn't right.

 

Or more commonly with amateur fittings, you do the fitting with a standard 50 gm grip (cause that's all the store has - even though you know you fit into a larger or different grip size).    When you dial in the head weight to (e.g.) D3 during the fitting, you then shouldn't still expect D3 to be the correct target value when measured with the mid-size grip.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Righty to Lefty]

On 4/9/2021 at 5:13 PM, bnperrone said:

Of all the flamboyantly stupid comments made, this takes the cake.

Oh okay you want to be disrespectful while not presenting any information.  Please show me the evidence of the female golf club division at any OEM designing clubs to suit the needs of women. I am a male lefty golfer and my options are super limited so do you really think that female golf clubs are getting any R&D money?  The fact is the main difference between a female golf club and a men's one is a shorter shaft that is likely graphite and a smaller grip and maybe a different color scheme. And that is only to a point because the options are very narrow for female golf clubs so many end up playing men's clubs...but you already knew that.  I mean but you know exactly what you are talking about so much so that all you could muster was a one sentence response instead of presenting evidence to move the conversation forward. No problem I'll put more information out there to help you along.  

 

Please show me these MASSIVE differences between female and male clubs outside of length and grip size?  I'll wait....

Women's Epic Speed Driver Product Specs

Model	Loft	Availability	Standard Length	Lie	CC	Swing Weight
10.5°	Adjustable (9.5°-12.5°)	RH Only	44.50"	58° (Adjustable)	460	C8
12°	Adjustable (11°-14°)	RH / LH	44.50"	58° (Adjustable)	460	C8

Project X Cypher 40 Graphite Women's

Manufacturer	Flex	Shaft Weight	Torque	Kickpoint
Project X	Women's	40	High	Low

 

Men's Epic Speed Driver Product Specs

Model	Loft	Availability	Standard Length	Lie	CC	Swing Weight
9°	Adjustable (8°-11°)	RH / LH	45.75"	59.0° (Adjustable)	460	D2 (40g), D3, (50g), D4 (60/70g)
10.5°	Adjustable (9.5°-12.5°)	RH / LH	45.75"	59.0° (Adjustable)	460	D2 (40g), D3, (50g), D4 (60/70g)
12°	Adjustable (11°-14°)	RH / LH	45.75"	59.0° (Adjustable)	460	D2 (40g), D3, (50g), D4 (60/70g)

Project X Cypher 40 Graphite

Manufacturer	Flex	Shaft Weight	Torque	Kickpoint
Project X	Light	40	Mid-High	Low

 

 

 

"That’s because many “women’s clubs” are essentially men’s club heads stuck on the end of shorter, lighter shafts."

 

"There was essentially one equipment option for women to purchase. It was a very flexible, lightweight shaft paired with a heavy bulbous head that created a whippy club designed to pop the ball into the air. Even women who are just beginning the game will soon outgrow that set of clubs."

 

" Professional female golfers have custom equipment made with specifications to very tight tolerances to fit their specific needs. In fact, most of the professional women play with equipment that is heavier and stiffer than what you’ll find in most men’s equipment."

 

 

"In short: there’s more to making an optimal women’s golf club than chopping up a man’s club and painting it pink"

 

https://womensgolfjournal.com/golf/one-size-does-not-fit-all/

 

 

 

 

 

[bnperrone]

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Oh okay you want to be disrespectful while not presenting any information.  Please show me the evidence of the female golf club division at any OEM designing clubs to suit the needs of women. I am a male lefty golfer and my options are super limited so do you really think that female golf clubs are getting any R&D money?  The fact is the main difference between a female golf club and a men's one is a shorter shaft that is likely graphite and a smaller grip and maybe a different color scheme. And that is only to a point because the options are very narrow for female golf clubs so many end up playing men's clubs...but you already knew that.  I mean but you know exactly what you are talking about so much so that all you could muster was a one sentence response instead of presenting evidence to move the conversation forward. No problem I'll put more information out there to help you along.  

 

Please show me these MASSIVE differences between female and male clubs outside of length and grip size?  I'll wait....

Women's Epic Speed Driver Product Specs

Model	Loft	Availability	Standard Length	Lie	CC	Swing Weight
10.5°	Adjustable (9.5°-12.5°)	RH Only	44.50"	58° (Adjustable)	460	C8
12°	Adjustable (11°-14°)	RH / LH	44.50"	58° (Adjustable)	460	C8

Project X Cypher 40 Graphite Women's

Manufacturer	Flex	Shaft Weight	Torque	Kickpoint
Project X	Women's	40	High	Low

 

Men's Epic Speed Driver Product Specs

Model	Loft	Availability	Standard Length	Lie	CC	Swing Weight
9°	Adjustable (8°-11°)	RH / LH	45.75"	59.0° (Adjustable)	460	D2 (40g), D3, (50g), D4 (60/70g)
10.5°	Adjustable (9.5°-12.5°)	RH / LH	45.75"	59.0° (Adjustable)	460	D2 (40g), D3, (50g), D4 (60/70g)
12°	Adjustable (11°-14°)	RH / LH	45.75"	59.0° (Adjustable)	460	D2 (40g), D3, (50g), D4 (60/70g)

Project X Cypher 40 Graphite

Manufacturer	Flex	Shaft Weight	Torque	Kickpoint
Project X	Light	40	Mid-High	Low

 

 

 

"That’s because many “women’s clubs” are essentially men’s club heads stuck on the end of shorter, lighter shafts."

 

"There was essentially one equipment option for women to purchase. It was a very flexible, lightweight shaft paired with a heavy bulbous head that created a whippy club designed to pop the ball into the air. Even women who are just beginning the game will soon outgrow that set of clubs."

 

" Professional female golfers have custom equipment made with specifications to very tight tolerances to fit their specific needs. In fact, most of the professional women play with equipment that is heavier and stiffer than what you’ll find in most men’s equipment."

 

 

"In short: there’s more to making an optimal women’s golf club than chopping up a man’s club and painting it pink"

 

https://womensgolfjournal.com/golf/one-size-does-not-fit-all/

 

 

 

 

 

40g weight is, itself, massively different than 60-70g weigh series shafts. I don't need a whole lot more than one sentence when the things you're saying are so patently false. Your final point simply shows that professional golfers of each gender play equipment fine-tuned to THEM. Whatever that may be. Which means that their own bodies and swings and skill level make females more efficient. It isn't the equipment handing them an advantage like you've stated.