Help me understand how builders achieve proper SW

[blam89]

Hi all

 

I ordered a set of P770's from CoolClubs a while back. When I ordered, I was given the build sheet which stated all the irons were going to be D1 SW

 

I recently had the new irons measured at a local fitter and the SW were all over the place. I contacted CoolClubs and they sent me the "real" build sheet:

 

4i-GW:

C9.7

C9.3

C9.6

C9.5

C9.1

C9.0

C9.3

C9.1

 

The fitter told me they are 1 SW off because I choose midsize grips. 

 

A) Why couldn't they take into account the weight of midsize grips to achieve D1?

B) Why is there still so much variability in the SW's? Why aren't they all the same exact SW? What am I missing about the building process that prevents this?

C) How pissed should I be at CoolClubs? What should be my recourse?

 

Thanks all

[Tommy56]

Very poor build quality.  I would demand that CoolClubs or TM re-make them to the originally promised specs.

[Smokey227]

When you did your fitting did you use midsize grips? Sounds like they baselined your swingweight with a standard grip and did not adjust due to the heavier grips. Most builders ignore swingweight changes due to grip weight. I swingweight all my clubs with no grip and just subtract for standard grip weight. 

[Christen_The_Sloop]

I'd have them send me a roll of lead tape. Gratis.

[BYK]

Kinda weird
I've had sets built by CoolClubs and they've been right on the money

I would think for what you paid, that that should have been all accounted for

did you change the grip from what you were fit to?  Even so, I don't know how that isn't accounted for in the build

Let us know how they handle it.

[mcounci2]

My $.02

 

I always swingweight with a standard tour velvet, as this is what the SW scale is "calibrated" for.  For me, grip weight plays little to no part in "actual" felt swingweight, being that I'm holding the grip in my hands.  If it were me, I'd applaud your builder for swingweighting with a standard grip instead of a midsize, which, if it's heavy, will trick the swingweight scale into being light by 1pt/5g in the grip (roughly).   In any case, swingweighting is touchy at best and borderline arbitrary at worst. Play with a calculator, ones of grams and 32nds of inches can make your swingweight jump a lot.  Half of a swingweight point is one gram in the head, which is a weight so small you would not notice a 1g weight if I placed it in your hand, much less 3 feet away from you on the end of a 450g metal stick.  Maybe Tiger would notice, but you ain't Tiger.  

 

Regardless- go off your results rather than your analysis. Are the clubs working? Great. Don't touch them.  Missing left? Add a piece of tape on the toe, and so on.  I find a qualitative approach is best for these problems. Don't get too hung up on metrics. 

 

YMMV, and good luck with your sticks!

[bnperrone]

If they couldn't build what they promised they definitely should've let you know and discussed it with you. In this case it would appear that leaving them just a hair longer would've satisfied your SW preferences. That said, in terms of variation less than 1 SW point spread among the set is probably pretty competitive depending on the price paid on labor/expertise. Somebody with more knowledge can correct me here, but I'm pretty sure 1 SW point is inside of basically every manufacturer's tolerances. If you were to get a swingweight scale and a roll of lead tape I think you'd be shocked at how slight the tape quantity would vary from one club to the next to get it perfect.

 

Now with THAT being said, there are going to be combinations that just don't work. Midsize grips are pretty heavy, length is a major factor (and not stated), and shafts of course have a significant effect between balance point and total weight. Responders here would have to have more details and also understand the most important fitting parameters for you in order to tell you how far off this is. Some people are crazy sensitive to length, others to SW, others to static weight, etc. Sometimes something has to give.

[RogerinNewZealand]

Not a lot of variation, not like D1 9i then D2  8i etc.Ping build lots around d1 or lighter.Im a d3 person. Midsize grips can weigh 4 to 6 to 10 grams more than a stdish 50 gram gptv.

[sgolf711]

I got this info from a very well respected member on here.... 

 

“Swingweight should be determined with a standard size grip of 50g.  Once that is determined any grip installed afterwards is meaningless.  The midsize grip will incorrectly cause the swingweight scale to read light compared to the 50g grip.  The grip weight being in your hands does not influence the feel of the clubhead, ie swingweight.

 

Check the SW with a standard grip...that is your swingweight.

 

You can estimate the Swingweight as follows:  for every 5g more grip weight that will reduce the SW scale reading by 1 point.  So, if you midsize grips are say 60g (pluse tape) that would give you a SW of -2 points less than the actual SW, ie D0 reading = D2 actual.

I use midsize grips also, and they are 67g, so mine read about D0 on the scale but I actually build them with a slit 50g grip (no tape) and the SW will measure D3.”

Edited April 4, 2021 by sgolf711

[seth514]

+/- a half point of SW variability is certainly achievable by anyone somewhat proficient building your clubs (not OEM's). For example, you ordered/fit into D1. If all your clubs were built in between d0.5 - d1.5 you have a decent build and no concerns. 

 

With tip weights, the midsize grips would not be an issue to compensate for. Just have them rebuild the clubs at the fitted specs (d1), not a big deal. Whether or not you can tell the difference, who knows, but that isn't the point. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by seth514

[mcounci2]

2 hours ago, seth514 said:

+/- a half point of SW variability is certainly achievable by anyone somewhat proficient building your clubs (not OEM's). For example, you ordered/fit into D1. If all your clubs were built in between d0.5 - d1.5 you have a decent build and no concerns. 

 

With tip weights, the midsize grips would not be an issue to compensate for. Just have them rebuild the clubs at the fitted specs (d1), not a big deal. Whether or not you can tell the difference, who knows, but that isn't the point. 

The only problem there is possibly ending up with a very head-heavy club, depending on what grip and how much tape we're compensating for.  If you have to add 6g or whatever to the head to get to, say, D1 with a big heavy grip, the club is going to feel like something around a D4 when it's actually swung

Edited April 4, 2021 by mcounci2

[Valtiel]

While it certainly isn't perfect, I would hardly call those swingweights "all over the place" since they are all within C9. The rest of this needs a lot more data. 

What exactly where you fit for? Did you swing a P770 with the midsize grip that measured D1? If you did, then CoolClubs dropped the ball because a small amount of head weight should have been added. If you didn't swing that exact setup then everything else is moot, because it means you ordered something you weren't fit for. If you simply ordered the clubs through them without a proper fitting then what you got is roughly what you should have, that being a set that swingweights a little bit lighter due to a heavier grip that you specified. With regards to that, @sgolf711 is correct with the information they shared in that a heavier grip does not actually create a lighter club, it just gives you a different SW value based on a variable that is outside of its intended measuring parameters. The swingweight system is not designed to account for grip weight. 

If you can provide more detail on what did or did not happen regarding a fitting then we can determine whether or not CoolClubs is liable here. 

[kb24ismvp]

first off what shafts, weight, flex, lenght and grips are you using? that would be really helpful

 

i find it a little odd that you wanted D1, since stock p770 sw are D2

 

a few things to keep in mind that might answer some of your questions

not all grips weigh the same, when i build my sets i ALWAYS weigh every grip, obviously if  i have extra ones i will use grips with the same weight.  butt caps are can vary by 1/16".  all these things matter when you digitally sw.  even guys on the ping tour van say that digital sw is  an overkill.  that could explain why your GW is sw lower.

oem - +/-1  SW  is acceptable, i understand mfg tolerances can't alway be met  but generally speaking the major oems if dealing with most common shafts specs are pretty good at SW +/-0.5.

 

even if you are using a x100,  with titleist std lenght, muira heads, and mid size grips, you will be lucky to even get D2 (grip on) without resorting to using 6/8g weights.  obviously if you put in longer shafts you can get a higher sw.  if you look up New Level golf videos, and i think i saw it  on their site, that certain SW can't be achieved, he won't comprise on that, i'd imagine the major oem would have similar rules when it comes to SW.

 

the fitter in most cases is probably right and seems reputable.  if they took the time to give you the digital swing weights then  i am assuming they checked the lengths to make sure they aren't overly short.

 

fyi the 770 stock length is about 1/4 inch shorter than srixon zx7.  so it will naturally be SW lower.

 

as mention in other posts, general practice is sw based  on std grip.

 

if you insist on having D1 SW, with mid size grips, it might be incredibly challenging depending on what shafts and  lengths you want.

 

hope that eases you mind.

 

 

 

[James the Hogan Fan]

For B)  Because of tolerance. You are measuring something that is incredibly sensitive to minute changes in weight. From the internet, a 2g difference in head weight is a full swing weight point. Heads weigh somewhere in the 200-300g ballpark, so a ≤1% difference in head weight has a 1 point affect. Things like how much epoxy went into that particular club, the variation in weight of grip, are going to move you around in the decimals of swingweight. 

 

They had a spread of 0.7 swingweight points across the set. I realize that the target was D1, and you may wish to pursue that, but the difference in swingweight points, or half points in this case, is small enough to be affected by dirt getting stuck in the cavity, when playing for example.

[Thinnedit]

Typically at an OEM (can only speak for one) a set thats gripped before assembly will be weighed bare (without tip weights)

 

-The lightest club weighed will be the baseline (in shorter/midsize builds, opposite in overlength)

-Tip weight added to that club and a target weight noted, then all clubs are built to that target weight, inclusive of tolerance.

 

Well, thats at least how I do it.

Note: As OEM's are building clubs for stores and proshops, most of the time without a specified weight to work to, They will do their best to get it close to stock weight range inclusive of tolerance.

 

My question is how do the clubs play? Are you missing that avg. 1.3-1.5 SW points?

[jomatty]

4 hours ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

This forum is a never ending source of amusement.

 

What exactly did you expect them to do to mass produced pre existing components of fixed dimensions to make them weigh something other than what they weigh?

 

I don’t think I’m following...these are not off the shelf they are custom built.  We can debate wether it “close enough” but acting like there is nothing they can do to alter swingweight is just wrong. Unless I totally misunderstood what you were trying to say, which is possible.

[Nessism]

14 hours ago, blam89 said:

A) Why couldn't they take into account the weight of midsize grips to achieve D1?

B) Why is there still so much variability in the SW's? Why aren't they all the same exact SW? What am I missing about the building process that prevents this?

C) How pissed should I be at CoolClubs? What should be my recourse?

 

Thanks all

 

As mentioned by several others, heavy grips like midsize will reduce the swingweight compared to using a standard grip. Typically midsized grips at 65 grams will reduce swingweight by 3 points compared to a standard 50 gram grip.  So a club C9 is actually at D2 if we use a 50 gram grip as the baseline (which is something many better clubmakers advocate.)

 

So why D2 instead of D1 like requested?  Most likely this number is based on the weight of the heads.  It's easy to add tip weights to increase swingweight but very difficult to reduce it because it requires lightening the head.  Personally, I hate drilling out hosel's in an attempt to reduce swingweight so I'd have built the clubs without attempting to reduce the swingweight further.

 

As for the variability, it's actually not a bad range.  I target .5 gram of variation but if a couple of heads are heavy there isn't much you can do short of drilling, and I ain't gonna do that.

 

To me that build seems pretty good so I wouldn't be upset at CoolClubs.  They should have explained the "heavy grips mess up the measured swingweight" issue, but otherwise those clubs seem fine to me.

[cardoustie]

Ask them to build 1/4” longer or

add some tip weights or

put on lighter grips or

Use a little lead tape to get that authentic players look

 

For me I would use tape and use this opportunity to try a blending from d2 to your longest iron to d5 or 6 in your PW to move seamlessly into your wedge’s swing weights 

[TwistedSister]

You will not notice the difference of less than one SW point... You are talking less than 2grams of weight on the head.  Big Whoop! the weight of TWO one dollar bills.

[Stuart_G]

Pay attention to the answers from @mcounci2 @sgolf711 @Valtiel and @Nessism.  Those are the ones worth listening to.

[TwistedSister]

37 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

Pay attention to the answers from @mcounci2 @sgolf711 @Valtiel and @Nessism.  Those are the ones worth listening to.

You are too modest Stuart!!!

[drumdude96]

OP, as mentioned by a few guys already, those measured swingweight values are not "all over the place".  Plus or minus 1 swingweight point from target is perfectly acceptable, and there is likely no way you can feel the difference, unless you are a freak of nature like Phil Mickelson.  The real question here is how do the clubs perform for you?  If you're hitting them well, then there is no problem whatsoever.  And no, you shouldn't be "pissed at CoolClubs".  They did a perfectly acceptable build.

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, dhacker56 said:

You are too modest Stuart!!!

 

Actually, just too lazy to re-write what's already been said 🙂

[TwistedSister]

Just now, Stuart_G said:

 

Actually, just too lazy to re-write what's already been said 🙂

Your advice has really helped me...

[blam89]

thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. 

 

to those who asked for more details about the irons - shafts are KBS c-taper lite 110 and 5 iron cut length is 38" 

 

I forgot to mention that when I had these clubs weighed by my local fitter, he had SW's ranging from C8-D1, whereas CoolClub's post-build spec sheet specified the SW range I listed out in my original post. I'm not really sure which set of numbers to believe to be honest, but the comments here have certainly helped a little with my peace of mind. 

 

[Howard_Jones]

7 hours ago, blam89 said:

thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. 

 

to those who asked for more details about the irons - shafts are KBS c-taper lite 110 and 5 iron cut length is 38" 

 

I forgot to mention that when I had these clubs weighed by my local fitter, he had SW's ranging from C8-D1, whereas CoolClub's post-build spec sheet specified the SW range I listed out in my original post. I'm not really sure which set of numbers to believe to be honest, but the comments here have certainly helped a little with my peace of mind. 

 

You already have the replied you need, but if this was a test to see if build quality is good or not, you dont have to check SW values at all, its enough to measure the clubs total wgt. Total wgt is the #2 most important parameter and more important than SW, but hardly anyone is aware of that

A set made with constant wgt shaft should as ideal have a progression of 7.0 grams pr club shorter.
For irons 1 SWP is 2 grams or a little more, so D1 to C8 is about 6 grams or almost 1 club as total wgt
If the SW match job done is a mess, total wgt progression would be a mess
We will NEVER see 7.0 FLAT for 8 clubs in a set, but if we find 2 or more clubs with the same or almost the same TW, the quality of the build is questionable depending on what level of club making you have payed for. 

So, simply take them one by one on a gram scale and take notes to see how TW progression looks like. A high end build has tight tolerances on all specs, and its not only head wgt that can move specs or SW values, so can lie angles thats off, so can small errors to cut length and grip wgt tolerances etc..... 

Typical OEM tolerances (observed)
Loft and lie angles - Plus minus 2*
Play length < 1/16
SW values +/- 1 SWP
Total wgt prog +/- 5 grams

We can not expect specs better than this from OEM, unless we pay for it as a higher quality build by a local club maker, and thats why we always should have loft and lie angles checked before we start playing a new set.

[Righty to Lefty]

You simply can't feel two swing weight points no matter how sensitive your hands are and the mythical story about Tiger feeling a difference in a club that differed by the weight of a cotton ball is silly also.  If he was that sensitive to the weight of the driver he would hit it better...literally.  If you are going to make tangible changes to swing weight then go from D4 to C4 or E4 and then you will truly know what side of the spectrum your preference lies.  We are assuming that the difference came from the head or the grip end but it could have also came from the shaft also or a combo of all three and there is simply no way you can feel a difference in such a small swing weight change. 

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You simply can't feel two swing weight points no matter how sensitive your hands are and the mythical story about Tiger feeling a difference in a club that differed by the weight of a cotton ball is silly also.  If he was that sensitive to the weight of the driver he would hit it better...literally.  If you are going to make tangible changes to swing weight then go from D4 to C4 or E4 and then you will truly know what side of the spectrum your preference lies.  We are assuming that the difference came from the head or the grip end but it could have also came from the shaft also or a combo of all three and there is simply no way you can feel a difference in such a small swing weight change. 

Nobody can feel SW values at all, only a SW scale can, and only if its used right, but if you say that 4 grams of head weight who is equal to about 2 SWP dont matter, or that nobody can feel that, you are wrong.

[Righty to Lefty]

1 minute ago, Howard_Jones said:

Nobody can feel SW values at all, only a SW scale can, and only if its used right, but if you say that 4 grams of head weight who is equal to about 2 SWP don't matter, or that nobody can feel that, you are wrong.

You can feel swing weight I assure you...if you add enough weight.  I guarantee you that if you picked up a 1 pound weight and another one with an extra 2 to 4 grams on it you can't reliably tell the difference. You do have a better chance of feeling a difference dynamically while the club is being swung because you are generating force and the club is thus trying to pull away from you, but you are highly unlikely to feel any difference statically. That is why swing weight should be dramatically changed  from say D4 to E4 or C4 because that is a 20 gram change and will be much more likely give the golfer a way better picture of their swing weight preference than testing out D4 and D6 respectively.  I gradually increased the swing weight of my clubs until I found my preference...which ended up being F5.  My advice is to go to an extreme in either direction and then fine tune it back from there until you find the sweet spot. 

 

I'm even going to entertain getting into a pissing contest on here if you don't believe in the validity of the measure of how the weight is distributed along the club's components having relevance...which is basically what your statement said. Especially after you said only a scale can feel it...then contradicted that statement in the very next sentence. I challenge you to hit a B4 and and F4 swing weight club of the same total weight and then state that there is no difference. I assure you they are very different in how they will perform for each golfer.  I feel that total weight is the most important factor to a club, followed closely by swing weight because if you do not have a sense of the CoG of the club as it moves around you in space you will always struggle and the total weight is the main factor in setting the golfer's tempo.   

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You can feel swing weight I assure you...if you add enough weight.  I guarantee you that if you picked up a 1 pound weight and another one with an extra 2 to 4 grams on it you can't reliably tell the difference. You do have a better chance of feeling a difference dynamically while the club is being swung because you are generating force and the club is thus trying to pull away from you, but you are highly unlikely to feel any difference statically. That is why swing weight should be dramatically changed  from say D4 to E4 or C4 because that is a 20 gram change and will be much more likely give the golfer a way better picture of their swing weight preference than testing out D4 and D6 respectively.  I gradually increased the swing weight of my clubs until I found my preference...which ended up being F5.  My advice is to go to an extreme in either direction and then fine tune it back from there until you find the sweet spot. 

 

I'm even going to entertain getting into a pissing contest on here if you don't believe in the validity of the measure of how the weight is distributed along the club's components having relevance...which is basically what your statement said. Especially after you said only a scale can feel it...then contradicted that statement in the very next sentence. I challenge you to hit a B4 and and F4 swing weight club of the same total weight and then state that there is no difference. I assure you they are very different in how they will perform for each golfer.  I feel that total weight is the most important factor to a club, followed closely by swing weight because if you do not have a sense of the CoG of the club as it moves around you in space you will always struggle and the total weight is the main factor in setting the golfer's tempo.   

It was your own words i replied to, "

You simply can't feel two swing weight points no matter how sensitive your hands are 
 

• and the next time, check out whos leg and shoes you try to piss on, and keep this kind of pissing contest out of this forum.