Do you play golf underneath you or around you?

[PracticeSwinger]

That question is obviously subjective - dependant on the club you are hitting - and related to your setup and (maybe) body shape... but generally speaking; are you looking down at the ball and think the club is coming down to hit it / swing it towards the target or do you feel that the ball is in front of you and you have to swing the club around it, making sure about the arc low point, to send it towards the target... Of course, it is not black and white, but I'm wondering if that subtle distinction might influence and be related to differences in angle of attack, steep/shallow path, in-out or fighting OTT, and indirectly related to all other lovely compensations our bodies have to do in order to even catch a glimpse of the golf ball like EE when we are crowding the space we had...

[scooterhd2]

Just about every good golfer, no matter their backswing, gets into some real similar positions on the downswing at p5.5 p6ish. Matt Wolff, Justin Thomas, Jack below.

 

But we dont see this as the actively swinging golfer. And the feels of around you, straight back straight through underneath you, release toward the target, depth, shallowing, club path, keeping the shoulders closed are difficult to feel in 3D space. 

 

What is much easier is to view the hit in 2D. And also eliminates some of the subjective feels. Look up Bradley Hughes 4:30 path. Imagine a clock. 12 is straight in front of you, 6 is straight behind you. 9 would be toward the target. And as you are coming into the ball, you want to imagine the shaft and club coming from 4:30. If you manage this, you will automatically cure OTT, steepness, etc. Without much thought other than your intent to trace the 4:30 line into the ball as Jack is doing below. Very similar, yet different to Montes NTC. 

 

 

[jholz]

I posted a topic similar to this a while back and got similar responses. The concept makes sense to me.

 

For the record, I like to think of the swing occurring "out in front of me."

 

Terms like "covering the ball" and such always got me too far out on my toes.

 

The "out in front of me" thought has helped me with deeper hip turn, better balance, and ongoing elimination of EE.

[dlygrisse]

Seems it's a bit of both, some are just a bit more of one than the other.  Probably because of physical traits.  

[Zitlow]

That's a good question I'll take a stab at it. As @dlygrissesiad it's a little bit of both.

 

This won't compute with 99.9% of the posters who have bought into the dogma of swinging wide down the target line making their swings conform to the static plane established at address. That's okay because swinging wide down the static line is deeply ingrained in most all instruction.

 

The left arm and club should work like the revolving side of a compass. At address there's a 30* angle give or take relationship between the left arm and the left pec. The idea is to maintain that relationship by allowing the left arm to work with the left shoulder.

 

Sam didn't swing wide down the target line. His left arm worked with his left shoulder. As his shoulder turned his left arm turned with it in sync. He didn't swing his arms, his shoulders swung his arms. I slowed the video down so you can see it.

 

[Pepperturbo]

Using hand-eye coordination, I see the ball and use the club head to hit it where I want the ball to go.

 

I keep it pretty simple.  Those that overanalyze swing mechanics always seem to have problems tying their mental vision of the swing to the actual act of the swing.  In other words, in their own way.

[PracticeSwinger]

54 minutes ago, Chippy8 said:

 

Dude, are you injecting CBDB oil or what,  lol, but I would say yes it could be related to differences.

Haha anything to lower that index!

[PracticeSwinger]

52 minutes ago, scooterhd2 said:

Just about every good golfer, no matter their backswing, gets into some real similar positions on the downswing at p5.5 p6ish. Matt Wolff, Justin Thomas, Jack below.

 

But we dont see this as the actively swinging golfer. And the feels of around you, straight back straight through underneath you, release toward the target, depth, shallowing, club path, keeping the shoulders closed are difficult to feel in 3D space. 

 

What is much easier is to view the hit in 2D. And also eliminates some of the subjective feels. Look up Bradley Hughes 4:30 path. Imagine a clock. 12 is straight in front of you, 6 is straight behind you. 9 would be toward the target. And as you are coming into the ball, you want to imagine the shaft and club coming from 4:30. If you manage this, you will automatically cure OTT, steepness, etc. Without much thought other than your intent to trace the 4:30 line into the ball as Jack is doing below. Very similar, yet different to Montes NTC. 

Interesting - and yes related to Monte's NTC... and it's probably related to the fact that beginners can't figure out that in transition the clubhead has to go back, up and deeper... counterintuitive to where you think it has to go if you want to 'hit if hard'... wouldn't this promote a more 'around you' swing thought?

[PracticeSwinger]

54 minutes ago, jholz said:

I posted a topic similar to this a while back and got similar responses. The concept makes sense to me.

 

For the record, I like to think of the swing occurring "out in front of me."

 

Terms like "covering the ball" and such always got me too far out on my toes.

 

The "out in front of me" thought has helped me with deeper hip turn, better balance, and ongoing elimination of EE.

Interesting - and it ties in with the length of the shaft / distance from the ball for sure... but I've always fought a down the line release (especially with shorter clubs) can't get past the mental blocage of having to pivot through, exiting left (feel like I need to 'push' the clubhead towards the target)... and was wondering if it was triggered from the fact that with shorter clubs, I feel / seem to be over the ball (and covering it make sense to me)

[GLF4EVR]

Too much math & science on my end.  I have always looked at the swing as an act of centrifugal force.

[jholz]

5 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Interesting - and it ties in with the length of the shaft / distance from the ball for sure... but I've always fought a down the line release (especially with shorter clubs) can't get past the mental blocage of having to pivot through, exiting left (feel like I need to 'push' the clubhead towards the target)... and was wondering if it was triggered from the fact that with shorter clubs, I feel / seem to be over the ball (and covering it make sense to me)

 

Yeah, see, I think of this more in the sense of my body's relationship to the ball, and not necessarily the clubhead. With that in mind, I would say I'm leaning into a more "around the body" kind of idea. But, that's one of those ideas that can lead to bad places if you are not careful.

 

I always figure that if I can get my body into the right positions, the club is going to do what I need it to.

[bladehunter]

I’m tall. I generally look down at IT driver and 3 wood get a little more out in front.  Whne I get into trouble it’s almost always too much hip bend and ball too far from me out in front. 
 

I see this view above the ball as the backswing and then down swing path.  Slightly inside out for a draw. Slightly outside in for a fade and straight  back and straight to the target for a mostly straight shot that usually falls right.  The clubhead is what I see moving.  Not my hands or anything else.  

[TM4me]

My self taught swing was pretty flat.  The one and only golf lesson I have ever had, the pro had me stand closer to the ball and get my hands higher in the backswing - bingo!

 

I feels more on top of the ball, "underneath" using your terminology. Much less swinging "around" my body.

[scooterhd2]

1 hour ago, MtlJayMan said:

Interesting - and yes related to Monte's NTC... and it's probably related to the fact that beginners can't figure out that in transition the clubhead has to go back, up and deeper... counterintuitive to where you think it has to go if you want to 'hit if hard'... wouldn't this promote a more 'around you' swing thought?

 

Yes. Promotes an 'around you swing where the hands get in front of you and the club shallows behind. If you pull your hands underneath, the club will tip out and get steep. 

 

Also sometimes counterintuitive because people want to steer the face through the impact zone and feel like you want to come in straight and out straight like the red line so that the ball goes straight. The better feel is shaft tracing a 4:30 path into the ball (blue line), and out low and left quickly. You wont actually trace the lines, the face will follow the shallow, 'attacking from the inside path' shown. 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by scooterhd2

[Cliffy2020]

Long story short, in my younger days and best scoring I played golf underneath me until a tree root jumped out and bit me.  Since then (~7yrs) I’ve played golf around myself to become a sweeper and more shallow.  Stronger and healthier now, I’m trying to get golf more underneath again and back under par.

[PracticeSwinger]

2 minutes ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

Yes. Promotes an 'around you swing.'

 

Also sometimes counterintuitive because people want to steer the face through the impact zone and feel like you want to come in straight and out straight like the red line so that the ball goes straight. The better feel is shaft tracing a 4:30 path into the ball (blue line), and out low and left quickly. You wont actually trace the lines, the face will follow the shallow, 'attacking from the inside path' shown. 

 

Yes - I’m with you on that - and being a relative newbie I fight this feeling of having to ‘push’ the club towards the target especially with shorter ones when a combo of; being closer to the ball (feeling on top of it) and not having to generate power/distance much makes it feel weird (at least for me - now) to keep rotating through… I focus on trying to attain that umbrella finish

[scooterhd2]

20 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Yes - I’m with you on that - and being a relative newbie I fight this feeling of having to ‘push’ the club towards the target especially with shorter ones when a combo of; being closer to the ball (feeling on top of it) and not having to generate power/distance much makes it feel weird (at least for me - now) to keep rotating through… I focus on trying to attain that umbrella finish

 

Its a different feel for sure.  People like to generate speed early and then try to hold on to it. Swing something with some real weight and you wont be pushing down the line. This person doesnt push the 'hammer' toward the target. The peak speed is at release. In golf you have to feel like your max speed is after the hands pass the ball. The umbrella finish starts with the path into the ball. If you are OTT you can cheat a good finish but it feels weak. If you are 4:30 into the ball, you are low and shallow in and low and shallow out and the ball feels crushed. 

 

 

[dlygrisse]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

That's a good question I'll take a stab at it. As @dlygrissesiad it's a little bit of both.

 

This won't compute with 99.9% of the posters who have bought into the dogma of swinging wide down the target line making their swings conform to the static plane established at address. That's okay because swinging wide down the static line is deeply ingrained in most all instruction.

 

The left arm and club should work like the revolving side of a compass. At address there's a 30* angle give or take relationship between the left arm and the left pec. The idea is to maintain that relationship by allowing the left arm to work with the left shoulder.

 

Sam didn't swing wide down the target line. His left arm worked with his left shoulder. As his shoulder turned his left arm turned with it in sync. He didn't swing his arms, his shoulders swung his arms. I slowed the video down so you can see it.

 

Everything about his swing is so good.  For instance just watch his feet, they are quiet, but move with rhythm.  BC liq license.zipPerfect balance.  

 

Sam talked a lot about the swing, but I always get the feeling he is talking about his current feel, which may or may not work for you, Trevino tends to do the same thing.  Rarely are their swing tips the same thing over time.  

[PJE]

I have never thought about this concept and after reading all of these posts, I am afraid to try to hit a golf ball! Too esoteric, ha ha! I am with @Pepperturboon this one. 

But, to me it feels like the ball is out front, not below,  so I guess the "around you" swing is what I do. 

 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

Its a different feel for sure.  People like to generate speed early and then try to hold on to it. Swing something with some real weight and you wont be pushing down the line. This person doesnt push the 'hammer' toward the target. The peak speed is at release. In golf you have to feel like your max speed is after the hands pass the ball. The umbrella finish starts with the path into the ball. If you are OTT you can cheat a good finish but it feels weak. If you are 4:30 into the ball, you are low and shallow in and low and shallow out and the ball feels crushed. 

 

 

While I agree that any swing has curve at the ends , ( my picture above is of the 20 inch or so area between the feet and around the ball. ) isn’t what you’re describing the flat “ out in front “ swing ?  
 

as in you’re saying arc more.  Which will finish left and around.  Right ?    The opposite is say like Nicklaus.  Finishing up and over the left shoulder.  That’s how I see the swing.  And it’s a product of being tall in my opinion.  You’d  need a wedge 39 inches long and 6 degrees flat to swing it on that big of an arc.  
 

I guess my point is.  I don’t think there’s a one size fits all path.   When I stand over a wedge. I’m up over it like a putt whne your eyes are just barely inside the ball. Maybe not even inside. 
 

edit.   Not arguing.  Just saying/asking.  

Edited October 28, 2021 by bladehunter

[dlygrisse]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

While I agree that any swing has curve at the ends , ( my picture above is of the 20 inch or so area between the feet and around the ball. ) isn’t what you’re describing the flat “ out in front “ swing ?  
 

as in you’re saying arc more.  Which will finish left and around.  Right ?    The opposite is say like Nicklaus.  Finishing up and over the left shoulder.  That’s how I see the swing.  And it’s a product of being tall in my opinion.  You’d  need a wedge 39 inches long and 6 degrees flat to swing it on that big of an arc.  
 

I guess my point is.  I don’t think there’s a one size fits all path.   When I stand over a wedge. I’m up over it like a putt whne your eyes are just barely inside the ball. Maybe not even inside. 
 

edit.   Not arguing.  Just saying/asking.  

So someone like Kuchar, who is about 6'3" I think swings very around, JT swings very upright and is probably 5' 9".  Hogan 5'8" with long arms flat, Seve  was 6' with long arms and swung upright., Watson 5'9 upright, DLIII tall and upright, Phil is tall and seems to have moved his plane over time.  Faldo when from very upright to pretty flat.  

 

I think it has a lot to do if whether you are more of an arm swinger (upright) vs. a body turner (flatter)  Then again intent can do a lot of things.  

 

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

 

Very good illustration @scooterhd2

 

The golf swing is a circle like twirling a ball on a string, not linear for maximum efficiency. 

 

Escape force and holding force. The hammer is pulling her arms away from her center, escape force. She's resisting the escape force by leaning back, holding force. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Zitlow

[Zitlow]

12 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

So someone like Kuchar, who is about 6'3" I think swings very around, JT swings very upright and is probably 5' 9".  Hogan 5'8" with long arms flat, Seve  was 6' with long arms and swung upright., Watson 5'9 upright, DLIII tall and upright, Phil is tall and seems to have moved his plane over time.  Faldo when from very upright to pretty flat.  

 

I think it has a lot to do if whether you are more of an arm swinger (upright) vs. a body turner (flatter)  Then again intent can do a lot of things.  

 

 Goes to show how talented they are. 

[bladehunter]

16 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

So someone like Kuchar, who is about 6'3" I think swings very around, JT swings very upright and is probably 5' 9".  Hogan 5'8" with long arms flat, Seve  was 6' with long arms and swung upright., Watson 5'9 upright, DLIII tall and upright, Phil is tall and seems to have moved his plane over time.  Faldo when from very upright to pretty flat.  

 

I think it has a lot to do if whether you are more of an arm swinger (upright) vs. a body turner (flatter)  Then again intent can do a lot of things.  

 

Yep. All also true.  I’d also add.  It’s probably a bit more feel vs real thing too.  

Edited October 28, 2021 by bladehunter

[Krt22]

I play golf outside

[scooterhd2]

39 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

While I agree that any swing has curve at the ends , ( my picture above is of the 20 inch or so area between the feet and around the ball. ) isn’t what you’re describing the flat “ out in front “ swing ?  
 

as in you’re saying arc more.  Which will finish left and around.  Right ?    The opposite is say like Nicklaus.  Finishing up and over the left shoulder.  That’s how I see the swing.  And it’s a product of being tall in my opinion.  You’d  need a wedge 39 inches long and 6 degrees flat to swing it on that big of an arc.  
 

I guess my point is.  I don’t think there’s a one size fits all path.   When I stand over a wedge. I’m up over it like a putt whne your eyes are just barely inside the ball. Maybe not even inside. 
 

edit.   Not arguing.  Just saying/asking.  

 

You mention Jack (not tall), who I used in my first example for the 4:30 swing. Yes, he hit a fade, but most people would be better off trying to hit a fade from the inside with a shallow swing rather than the amateur OTT move. DJ is tall and gets shallow and hits a fade. Rahm is pretty tall. Kuchar is an extreme example of a flat swing. But Finau (6'4), the Big Easy (6'3) below are coming into the ball from this 4:30 path. Yes, height, wingspan, flexbility, are going to determine in a 3 dimensional how tall or upright or long or flat the swing is, but in a 2 dimensional view from the eyes of the golfer if you use your hands to get the club into the 4:30 position, the shaft will be laid off and the hands will work out in front and away = shallowing. That alone is not really height dependent. Doesnt matter how close you stand either. Anybody can hold a club at a certain clock position.

 

 

 

This is what it looks like from Finua or Els perspective. Shaft is redline and is at 4:30.

 

 

Justin Rose is tall, and his drill in an extreme shallowing move. This is like 5:30, but in reality in his real swing its a 4:30 path.

 

 

 

 

Bryson is above average height and seems on plane, but he makes a big shallowing move. He rehearses that NTC to 8, which is a really similar move and gets the club behind and the hands in front. This is what most good players do.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by scooterhd2

[bladehunter]

19 minutes ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

You mention Jack (not tall), who I used in my first example for the 4:30 swing. Yes, he hit a fade, but most people would be better off trying to hit a fade from the inside with a shallow swing rather than the amateur OTT move. DJ is tall and gets shallow and hits a fade. Rahm is pretty tall. Kuchar is an extreme example of a flat swing. But Finau (6'4), the Big Easy (6'3) below are coming into the ball from this 4:30 path. Yes, height, wingspan, flexbility, are going to determine in a 3 dimensional how tall or upright or long or flat the swing is, but in a 2 dimensional view from the eyes of the golfer if you use your hands to get the club into the 4:30 position, the shaft will be laid off and the hands will work out in front and away = shallowing. That alone is not really height dependent. Doesnt matter how close you stand either. Anybody can hold a club at a certain clock position.

 

 

 

This is what it looks like from Finua or Els perspective. Shaft is redline and is at 4:30.

 

 

Justin Rose is tall, and his drill in an extreme shallowing move. This is like 5:30, but in reality in his real swing its a 4:30 path.

 

 

 

 

Bryson is above average height and seems on plane, but he makes a big shallowing move. He rehearses that NTC to 8, which is a really similar move and gets the club behind and the hands in front. This is what most good players do.

 

 

Makes sense.   
 

But I will admit that the visual of the 430 entry into the ball looks very very inside to me.  I mean I could get there.  But I can only imagine the huge block miss right.  330 is about where my mind wants to see the clubhead enter.  
 

is this the shaft angle and  not the path of the clubhead ? Or are both same? 

 

  As in won’t the clubhead come in  outside the shaft if the shaft is laying at 430 coming down ?  My mind thinks club head path .  Not shaft angle.  So I maybe using dyslexic visuals.   
 

like I said above. Feel and real .  I have no doubt that my feels are unique to me and not a universal truth.  
 

Thanks for the visuals.  That helps a lot.  

[dlygrisse]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

 Goes to show how talented they are. 

Meh, you could say the same about millions of weekend golfers. It’s not like they aren’t making contact or usually getting the ball airborn.  The human body is pretty amazing, if you are trying to hit something with a 45” instrument you will almost 100% of the time no matter your technique.   Being world class has very little to do with this thread topic, and more about talent and hard work and determination.  

[shoot4par]

I guess more around the body due to some wrist issues. I always wished I played it more beneath me. I'm not sure I completely understand your question though. I'm gonna go take some philosophy classes and I'll get back to you. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by shoot4par

[PracticeSwinger]

Awesome answers so far - and I’m guessing it shows how people see/feel their golf swing and the way their clubhead gets to the ball; one way or the other (under or around) but have difficulties thinking that others may see/feel it the other way… and it wasn’t esoteric or philosophical haha… just curious (as I personally have a tough time thinking about ‘around me’ especially with shorter clubs)