2024 Groove ban for all rounds.....is it still planned to go ahead?

[gophers79]

I ended up buying i210s this year and putting my old Adams CMBs on the shelf because I was under the impression that they may not be legal, and I do play in some state amateur events.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

On 11/3/2021 at 9:19 AM, puttingmatt said:

All Mizuno's have V Grooves, and meet all equipment criteria set by the R&A and USGA.

 

I'm not sure that's 100% accurate. As @NRJyzr posted earlier in the thread, most--if not all--the MP series have conforming grooves, but not all MP irons are on the list because the older ones haven't been tested.

 

However, I'm fairly sure I've seen non-conforming Mizuno irons, such as a T-Zoid model, on the list. May have had the "Requires Further Testing" label. And some of the wedges are  non-conforming (e.g. T-10 non-conforming, T-11 conforming)

 

I tried to check again a few minutes ago, but the database wasn't loading for me.

[hoganben]

On 11/1/2021 at 7:55 PM, bobfoster said:

I have heard nothing from the USGA that indicated they were having second thoughts. Nor do I expect to. Couple of reasons.

 

First, while there were wild and vigorous arguments about the wedge rules when they were first introduced, that is all now way yesterday's news. It isn't going to be argued about again - nor would the USGA even remotely want to open it for discussion. At this point, it is just part of the rules of golf, and the 2024 final extension to all rounds isn't (IMO) going to be altered.

 

Second, at the functional level, its now been a long time since the rules were published. The major OEMs all complained a lot at first, but ultimately just adapted. Even though the average amateur or weekender wasn't technically required to follow the new rules when they were first implemented in 2010, once the the OEMs cleared out their pre-2010 inventory they all started making clubs that conformed to the new rules almost immediately.

 

It has probably been over a decade since any manufacturer released a non-conforming wedge, even though the deadline was off in the future. No OEM (that I know of - club techs here can correct me if I'm wrong) bifurcated their lines - i.e., there wasn't one line of 2012 Vokey or Cleveland wedges marked "Required for tournament play", and another marked "Legal for amateurs until 2024". That just would have been downright stupid from a supply chain/inventory perspective.

 

So the vast majority of amateurs are already playing conforming wedges even if they have no clue what the details of the wedge rules are. If they bought their wedges any time in the last decade, they are already good. I suspect 2024 is just going to pass without anyone really noticing. 

 

Not a chance the USGA re-opens that old can of worms when there's actually virtually no reason to.

Geeze...for a wordy guy who knows it all you left out the rest of the irons...have you been playing non conforming irons all this time...oh my gosh!...ps groove rule change made a zero impact on tour and Bones agrees with my observation that pros score better post the new groove rule because they dont spin the ball back too much like when greg norman used to spin the ball back off the green. Ps. Feel free to get wordy on the new ball rule.

[bobfoster]

2 hours ago, hoganben said:

Geeze...for a wordy guy who knows it all you left out the rest of the irons...have you been playing non conforming irons all this time...oh my gosh!...ps groove rule change made a zero impact on tour and Bones agrees with my observation that pros score better post the new groove rule because they dont spin the ball back too much like when greg norman used to spin the ball back off the green. Ps. Feel free to get wordy on the new ball rule.

 

Thanks for that! And so glad Bones agrees with you. I know he must feel very good about that.

 

Of course, that has absolutely nothing to do with my point, which was that "the vast majority of amateurs are already playing conforming wedges even if they have no clue what the details of the wedge rules are. If they bought their wedges any time in the last decade, they are already good. I suspect 2024 is just going to pass without anyone really noticing."

 

Rather weird logic for me to say "ducks are going to continue to swim in that pond as they have been for a while", and have someone refute it by saying "oh yeah? Well bananas are yellow, so there!"

 

But thanks for giving me permission to comment on the new ball rule. I was holding off until I heard your opinion. Bones undoubtedly was too. 

 

PS. Feel free not to read my posts if you find them too wordy. 

[st1800e]

17 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

I suspect 2024 is just going to pass without anyone really noticing."

Yes,   The ruling bodies committed to a 4 year notice, no notice has ever been given.  So pre 2010 clubs are AOK for all play unless the MLR is in place for a specific competition.  
Highly unlikely they will ever give the 4 year notice.  Especially with the current fracas going on.   

[bobfoster]

45 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Yes,   The ruling bodies committed to a 4 year notice, no notice has ever been given.  So pre 2010 clubs are AOK for all play unless the MLR is in place for a specific competition.  
Highly unlikely they will ever give the 4 year notice.  Especially with the current fracas going on.   

Technically, you are spot on correct about this. But this is likely functionally meaningless. Has been a decade or so since any big OEM even manufactured a club with pre-2010 grooves. Either you have them because you're a really casual golfer that is still playing 15 year old clubs (in which case you likely could care less about the wedge rule), or you'd have to specifically go to eBay to find used ones. 

 

I suspect 95% of the wedges in play today on courses conform to the new groove standard, even if 50% of those playing them may not even know or care that they do. This stopped being an issue I've heard anyone even talk about on a golf course a number of years ago. Its really only on in obscure places like WRX that people even remember that 2024 was set to be the "final year of conformance" (even though, as you point out, that isn't exactly true, as the last bit of formal paperwork hasn't been done).

 

Golf is fun.

[Eeecc]

It is not so much about wedges because wedges are likely to be worn out unless you are like me I nabbed a set of 3 vokeys with 2 being Sm2 from a casual golfer for $60CAD.

 

But it is more about great feeling irons that have the old grooves like Ping Eye or my current set Endo forged Bridgestone J33CB. Don’t want to give up such great feeling and balances clubs.

[NRJyzr]

3 hours ago, Eeecc said:

But it is more about great feeling irons that have the old grooves like Ping Eye or my current set Endo forged Bridgestone J33CB. Don’t want to give up such great feeling and balances clubs.

 

Did you mean to say Eye, or Eye2?  My reason for asking is that the Eye2 square groove irons are conforming in the USA.  Even allowed in USGA events.

 

If you do mean the Eye irons, they would very likely pass a conformance check as they would have been made with v-grooves.  Provided the grooves are not modified, of course.  

 

[philly2kuk]

I contacted the R&A on this not long ago as was toying with some old irons for fun and they said no notice has been given and when it is, there’s a four year period before it goes live. So play whatever irons you want to if you aren’t at tour or elite amateur level.

[Eeecc]

6 hours ago, philly2kuk said:

I contacted the R&A on this not long ago as was toying with some old irons for fun and they said no notice has been given and when it is, there’s a four year period before it goes live. So play whatever irons you want to if you aren’t at tour or elite amateur level.

Will do…definitely continue to play my Bridgestone J33CB because so buttery smooth. Not that I play at high levels but I know that I am playing an acceptable club when I play w my friends

[Poor Mans Ty Webb]

On 11/9/2021 at 6:52 PM, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

And some of the wedges are  non-conforming (e.g. T-10 non-conforming, T-11 conforming)

Man, I’ve been buying up old T series wedges from the pre 2010s because they are flat out fantastic. Feel great, perform better. Some of my all time favorites. Learned from reading this that they’re all non conforming! Had I known better, I may have hunted for T-11s instead. 

 

Oh well, I’m keeping them, along with my MP-60/67 irons (which are conforming). I’m happy to play them in casual rounds and on travel. New wedges that feel AND perform like these are hard to come by. 

[Halebopp]

9 hours ago, Poor Mans Ty Webb said:

Man, I’ve been buying up old T series wedges from the pre 2010s because they are flat out fantastic. Feel great, perform better. Some of my all time favorites. Learned from reading this that they’re all non conforming! Had I known better, I may have hunted for T-11s instead. 

 

Oh well, I’m keeping them, along with my MP-60/67 irons (which are conforming). I’m happy to play them in casual rounds and on travel. New wedges that feel AND perform like these are hard to come by. 

 

They made two versions of the T-10s, one that isn't and one that is conforming to the 2010 specs.

[bcjim]

So,  is this story inaccurate?

 

https://golf.com/gear/nonconforming-clubs-january-1/?amp=1

Edited December 28, 2023 by bcjim

[st1800e]

20 minutes ago, bcjim said:

So,  is this story inaccurate?

 

https://golf.com/gear/nonconforming-clubs-january-1/?amp=1

Yes, that article is absolutely incorrect.  Fake news!

Surprising Barath didn’t know that, and didn’t confirm with the USGA before publishing.  Irresponsible.  
I can’t find an email for him, but I’ll post something to him on Twitter.   Feel free to do the same.  
 

 

[Halebopp]

I was just coming here to post the article for good laughs. The golf "media" really can't help themselves. They won't waste any chance to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

I've always wondered if all the swing advice on websites and magazines is as bad as the rules articles.

[klebs01]

15 hours ago, bcjim said:

So,  is this story inaccurate?

 

https://golf.com/gear/nonconforming-clubs-january-1/?amp=1

looks like the article was removed. Your link just takes me to the general gear page. 

[st1800e]

4 hours ago, Halebopp said:

I was just coming here to post the article for good laughs. The golf "media" really can't help themselves. They won't waste any chance to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

I've always wondered if all the swing advice on websites and magazines is as bad as the rules articles.

Yes, the article has been removed Golf.com, and Ryan Barath’s and Fully_Equipped Twitter feed.  
I tweeted Ryan,  Fully_Equipped and Golf.com last night about this. 
I find this morning Fully Equipped has now blocked me, I assume because I pointed out the error.   
Strange 

[bcjim]

3 hours ago, st1800e said:

Yes, the article has been removed Golf.com, and Ryan Barath’s and Fully_Equipped Twitter feed.  
I tweeted Ryan,  Fully_Equipped and Golf.com last night about this. 
I find this morning Fully Equipped has now blocked me, I assume because I pointed out the error.   
Strange 

The better course of action would have been to say,  yeah, we goofed, sorry, and move on.  Nobody expects perfection from them. 

Golf has occasional good articles.  They have a bit of filler too...Some articles just leave more questions than answers which I don't care for. 

[st1800e]

2 minutes ago, bcjim said:

The better course of action would have been to say,  yeah, we goofed, sorry, and move on. 

Agreed, and then publish the corrected story, so that the 8000+ people who read Ryan’s tweet might be properly informed.  

[bcjim]

Someone should email their golf "etiquette-ist" column guy and ask how to tactfully handle the situation. 😆

 

https://golf.com/lifestyle/etiquette-rules-around-hats-in-the-clubhouse/?amp=1

[Maine Golfer]

yeah its fine, they aren't doing it. Play whatever you want. I reject someone would win a golf match over an 80s wedge. 

[2bGood]

On 12/12/2023 at 8:35 PM, bobfoster said:

Technically, you are spot on correct about this. But this is likely functionally meaningless. Has been a decade or so since any big OEM even manufactured a club with pre-2010 grooves. Either you have them because you're a really casual golfer that is still playing 15 year old clubs (in which case you likely could care less about the wedge rule), or you'd have to specifically go to eBay to find used ones. 

 

I suspect 95% of the wedges in play today on courses conform to the new groove standard, even if 50% of those playing them may not even know or care that they do. This stopped being an issue I've heard anyone even talk about on a golf course a number of years ago. Its really only on in obscure places like WRX that people even remember that 2024 was set to be the "final year of conformance" (even though, as you point out, that isn't exactly true, as the last bit of formal paperwork hasn't been done).

 

Golf is fun.

Overall I agree.... I am one of those guys the bucked the system. I never liked changing equipment. I have the same putter for the last 20 years (with two identical back-ups) I also don't change my type of wedge often. When the groove rule came up, I ended up buying 5 sets of wedges. I figured I could bust out a new set every few years. I am down to my last set now.

 

I have demoed some of the new wedges and for my swing speed, contact etc I don't see any big difference.

[rogolf]

On 12/31/2023 at 8:27 PM, 2bGood said:

Overall I agree.... I am one of those guys the bucked the system. I never liked changing equipment. I have the same putter for the last 20 years (with two identical back-ups) I also don't change my type of wedge often. When the groove rule came up, I ended up buying 5 sets of wedges. I figured I could bust out a new set every few years. I am down to my last set now.

 

I have demoed some of the new wedges and for my swing speed, contact etc I don't see any big difference.

A reminder that the groove rules apply to more than wedges; they apply to any club with a face loft of 25 degrees or more. And there are many irons and sets of irons that were manufactured before 2010 that comply with the groove rules.  For example, I have a set of 2006 Mizuno MP-32 irons that are on the conforming list. 

[NRJyzr]

10 minutes ago, rogolf said:

A reminder that the groove rules apply to more than wedges; they apply to any club with a face loft of 25 degrees or more. And there are many irons and sets of irons that were manufactured before 2010 that comply with the groove rules.  For example, I have a set of 2006 Mizuno MP-32 irons that are on the conforming list. 

 

Just a side note....   MP33 and MP37 are also explicitly listed as conforming (MP-30, also).

 

A lot of Mizuno blades would fit this category, but just haven't been submitted for testing.  Mizuno have been pretty clear about their use of grooves that happen to conform to the new rules for their MP sets.

 

I guess they didn't join the movement to square grooves that followed the Eye2 litigation settlement.

 

edit:  another surprising entry, the old T-Zoid Comp EZ are also conforming.

 

Edited January 2 by NRJyzr

[rogolf]

2 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Just a side note....   MP33 and MP37 are also explicitly listed as conforming.

 

A lot of Mizuno blades would fit this category, but just haven't been submitted for testing.  Mizuno have been pretty clear about their use of grooves that happen to conform to the new rules for their MP sets.

 

I guess they didn't join the movement to square grooves that followed the Eye2 litigation settlement.

 

I think the term “square grooves” is also misleading/misunderstood. Forms of “square grooves” can still be conforming. 

[NRJyzr]

Just now, rogolf said:

I think the term “square grooves” is also misleading/misunderstood. Forms of “square grooves” can still be conforming. 

 

True, I should perhaps chosen different phrasing  😉