2024 Groove ban for all rounds.....is it still planned to go ahead?

[cutchemist42]

Starting to think if this is still planned for for all types of events and handicap, that I will need new irons and some wedges and starting to consider options.

 

I currently game the 91 Lynx Parallax and I know it wont be given a pass like the Eye2 was.

 

I also believe that it's already in effect for most high level comps, but would be all-encompassing in 2024. (Handicap rounds and stuff like lower level comps would even be illegal)

 

I still dont see what advantage I have my playing 35 year old clubs at that point, but it is what it is.

 

So yeah, just wondering if anyone has any insight if the USGA is still going ahead with it impacting all rounds in 2024?

[bobfoster]

I have heard nothing from the USGA that indicated they were having second thoughts. Nor do I expect to. Couple of reasons.

 

First, while there were wild and vigorous arguments about the wedge rules when they were first introduced, that is all now way yesterday's news. It isn't going to be argued about again - nor would the USGA even remotely want to open it for discussion. At this point, it is just part of the rules of golf, and the 2024 final extension to all rounds isn't (IMO) going to be altered.

 

Second, at the functional level, its now been a long time since the rules were published. The major OEMs all complained a lot at first, but ultimately just adapted. Even though the average amateur or weekender wasn't technically required to follow the new rules when they were first implemented in 2010, once the the OEMs cleared out their pre-2010 inventory they all started making clubs that conformed to the new rules almost immediately.

 

It has probably been over a decade since any manufacturer released a non-conforming wedge, even though the deadline was off in the future. No OEM (that I know of - club techs here can correct me if I'm wrong) bifurcated their lines - i.e., there wasn't one line of 2012 Vokey or Cleveland wedges marked "Required for tournament play", and another marked "Legal for amateurs until 2024". That just would have been downright stupid from a supply chain/inventory perspective.

 

So the vast majority of amateurs are already playing conforming wedges even if they have no clue what the details of the wedge rules are. If they bought their wedges any time in the last decade, they are already good. I suspect 2024 is just going to pass without anyone really noticing. 

 

Not a chance the USGA re-opens that old can of worms when there's actually virtually no reason to.

[Myherobobhope]

23 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

No OEM (that I know of - club techs here can correct me if I'm wrong) bifurcated their lines - i.e., there wasn't one line of 2012 Vokey or Cleveland wedges marked "Required for tournament play", and another marked "Legal for amateurs until 2024". That just would have been downright stupid from a supply chain/inventory perspective.

I actually think titleist did exactly that… they had wedges with red stamps that weren’t legal for competition and black that were… I think… I’ve attached a picture of the wedge I got in 2012, as I happen to be near it.

[bobfoster]

31 minutes ago, Myherobobhope said:

I actually think titleist did exactly that… they had wedges with red stamps that weren’t legal for competition and black that were… I think… I’ve attached a picture of the wedge I got in 2012, as I happen to be near it.

 

My goodness, I stand corrected (that's why I love this site). Though that was probably the exception rather than the rule. Do you know offhand when they stopped doing that (I mean, they certainly aren't right now)? Don't want to side-track this thread into some obscure rabbit hole, but I do love filling in gaps in my knowledge.

[NRJyzr]

Personally, it's not going to affect me either way.  I have sets that are conforming, I have sets that are not, and I have sets that predate the emergence of square grooves.  I'll use any of them I so choose.

 

If someone wants to contest my use of those clubs, they can.  Won't change my choice to use them, or not.  <shrug>

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by NRJyzr

[bobfoster]

8 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

Personally, it's not going to affect me either way.  I have sets that are conforming, I have sets that are not, and I have sets that predate the emergence of square grooves.  I'll use any of them I so choose.

 

If someone wants to contest my use of those clubs, they can.  Won't change my choice to use them, or not.  <shrug>

 

 

Most golfers won't be affected in any way. And I hear what you are saying. However, if you ever play in sanctioned tournaments, or even your local club's championship (depending on the club), someone could legitimately call you out and have you disqualified. This may not apply to you at all, but really, the RoG are the RoG, and there are a lot of pretty specific parameters for clubs. Certainly anyone can ignore them at any time. I walked on as a single this weekend and played with some guys that had really good foot-wedges, and a guy that would actually put his ball on top of the rough if he had to hit a FW - almost teeing it up. I actually could care less - I play my game, they play theirs.

 

Whatever give people joy is fine with me - unless I'm playing competitively. In which case, people can't just decide which rules they feel like following, and which they don't. It isn't fair golf if everyone is not playing by the same rules.

[TwistedSister]

Actually ALL irons made after January 1, 2010 had to conform to the new groove rule.

https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/grooves/informational-club-database.html

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by dhacker56

[grochol17]

2 hours ago, Myherobobhope said:

I actually think titleist did exactly that… they had wedges with red stamps that weren’t legal for competition and black that were… I think… I’ve attached a picture of the wedge I got in 2012, as I happen to be near it.

 

Titleist was making the (non-conforming) Vokey Spin Milled wedges (like the one you show) starting in 2008 and they ended it in 2010.  In 2009, in response to the new USGA groove rule, Titleist started making versions of the Spin Milled wedges with conforming grooves.  So there was a time when Titleist was selling both conforming and non-conforming versions of the same wedge, but it wasn't by design... they had to react to the USGA decision.  The non-conforming Spin Milled wedges had the red saw blade stamp on the back while the conforming wedges had a gold saw blade and "C-C" (condition of competition) stamped on the hosel.  If I get a chance I'll take a pic of the conforming and non-conforming 58.08s that I have.

 

https://www.titleist.com/previous-models?SearchTerm=&GolfClubType=4&ModelYear=&OrderBy=year

[grochol17]

10 hours ago, cutchemist42 said:

I currently game the 91 Lynx Parallax and I know it wont be given a pass like the Eye2 was.

It used to be the case (and might still be) that you could send your irons in to the USGA to have them checked to see if they are conforming.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

10 hours ago, bobfoster said:

It has probably been over a decade since any manufacturer released a non-conforming wedge, even though the deadline was off in the future. No OEM (that I know of - club techs here can correct me if I'm wrong) bifurcated their lines - i.e., there wasn't one line of 2012 Vokey or Cleveland wedges marked "Required for tournament play", and another marked "Legal for amateurs until 2024". That just would have been downright stupid from a supply chain/inventory perspective.

 

 

Slightly off topic, but one or two Japanese manufacturers, such as PRGR, have continued making non-conforming drivers (with high CoR). In fact, I think PRGR even make a 480cc driver. Obviously, they clearly label it as non-conforming. So perhaps, there are manufacturers out there still making irons or wedges with non-conforming grooves.

 

7 hours ago, grochol17 said:

 

Titleist was making the (non-conforming) Vokey Spin Milled wedges (like the one you show) starting in 2008 and they ended it in 2010.  In 2009, in response to the new USGA groove rule, Titleist started making versions of the Spin Milled wedges with conforming grooves.  So there was a time when Titleist was selling both conforming and non-conforming versions of the same wedge, but it wasn't by design... they had to react to the USGA decision.  The non-conforming Spin Milled wedges had the red saw blade stamp on the back while the conforming wedges had a gold saw blade and "C-C" (condition of competition) stamped on the hosel.  If I get a chance I'll take a pic of the conforming and non-conforming 58.08s that I have.

 

https://www.titleist.com/previous-models?SearchTerm=&GolfClubType=4&ModelYear=&OrderBy=year

 

The old Callaway X-Jaws wedges also had conforming and non-conforming versions. The non-conforming wedges had the bounce stamped on the toe of the sole, whereas the conforming wedges had "CC".

[14max]

I have one set that conforms and another that doesn't.  I'll play either one whenever I please...

Edited November 9, 2021 by 14max

[JungleJimbo]

45 minutes ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

Slightly off topic, but one or two Japanese manufacturers, such as PRGR, have continued making non-conforming drivers (with high CoR). In fact, I think PRGR even make a 480cc driver. Obviously, they clearly label it as non-conforming. So perhaps, there are manufacturers out there still making irons or wedges with non-conforming grooves.

 

 

The old Callaway X-Jaws wedges also had conforming and non-conforming versions. The non-conforming wedges had the bounce stamped on the toe of the sole, whereas the conforming wedges had "CC".

Aggressive JDM grooves?

✅ Check! 
 

example: http://blog.tourspecgolf.com/seven-double-milled-forged-wedge/

[Valtiel]

8 hours ago, grochol17 said:

 

Titleist was making the (non-conforming) Vokey Spin Milled wedges (like the one you show) starting in 2008 and they ended it in 2010.  In 2009, in response to the new USGA groove rule, Titleist started making versions of the Spin Milled wedges with conforming grooves.  So there was a time when Titleist was selling both conforming and non-conforming versions of the same wedge, but it wasn't by design... they had to react to the USGA decision.  The non-conforming Spin Milled wedges had the red saw blade stamp on the back while the conforming wedges had a gold saw blade and "C-C" (condition of competition) stamped on the hosel.  If I get a chance I'll take a pic of the conforming and non-conforming 58.08s that I have.

 

https://www.titleist.com/previous-models?SearchTerm=&GolfClubType=4&ModelYear=&OrderBy=year

Thank you for breaking that down. I remember going down the saw color rabbit hole awhile back trying to figure out the differences between all the wedges since there was a lot of conflicting information. Red/Gold/White/Black etc, the latter two I believe were the same model (2007 Spin Milled) just different paint based on oil can vs. chrome and the 2008-2010 red/gold as you mentioned straddling the new conforming rules.

Its funny that people look for the "red saw" or "Vokey 2009" when the previous year spin milled wedges were just as ridiculously spinny and can normally be had cheaper.  

[NRJyzr]

8 hours ago, grochol17 said:

It used to be the case (and might still be) that you could send your irons in to the USGA to have them checked to see if they are conforming.

 

Speaking of that....

 

For any Mizuno users, both MP33s and MP37s are officially on the conforming list. 

 

I suspect sets such as MP14s, MP29s, and MS11s would also be conforming, but no one has bothered yet to send a set in for evaluation. 

 

[PEI_Golfer]

1 hour ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Speaking of that....

 

For any Mizuno users, both MP33s and MP37s are officially on the conforming list. 

 

I suspect sets such as MP14s, MP29s, and MS11s would also be conforming, but no one has bothered yet to send a set in for evaluation. 

 

 

When this all changed, I had a couple friends that had to drop their Cally blades at the time (were local club staffers) and picked up some 33's for when they were trying to Monday qualify for the Canadian Open.  The whole groove rule change did nothing but further prove why the governing bodies need to pack up and dissolve.  They literally bring nothing to the game...

[Davidv]

Another first world problem play what you have, enjoy the time with your buddies and stop making the game more than what it is for us wannabe weekend warriors.

[animalgolfs]

These are conforming as well

[grochol17]

2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Speaking of that....

 

For any Mizuno users, both MP33s and MP37s are officially on the conforming list. 

 

I suspect sets such as MP14s, MP29s, and MS11s would also be conforming, but no one has bothered yet to send a set in for evaluation. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that Mizuno has always used the same (or at least very similar) groove design in their irons that happens to be conforming under the current groove rule, so I think you're right that most old Mizuno irons would end up being approved for play if the USGA checked them.

[NRJyzr]

Just now, grochol17 said:

 

I'm pretty sure that Mizuno has always used the same (or at least very similar) groove design in their irons that happens to be conforming under the current groove rule, so I think you're right that most old Mizuno irons would end up being approved for play if the USGA checked them.

 

Exactly, it was a Mizuno statement that their MP irons were made with grooves that conformed with the 2010 rule.

 

Not sure if it was ever explored if that was restricted to MP blades, or all MP series irons.

 

[grochol17]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Thank you for breaking that down. I remember going down the saw color rabbit hole awhile back trying to figure out the differences between all the wedges since there was a lot of conflicting information. Red/Gold/White/Black etc, the latter two I believe were the same model (2007 Spin Milled) just different paint based on oil can vs. chrome and the 2008-2010 red/gold as you mentioned straddling the new conforming rules.

Its funny that people look for the "red saw" or "Vokey 2009" when the previous year spin milled wedges were just as ridiculously spinny and can normally be had cheaper.  

 

The non-conforming grooves produced a ton of spin, but they were so harsh on golf balls... basically every time I hit a wedge I had to take a ball out of play.  I was actually kinda happy about the groove change because it has saved me a lot of money on golf balls!

[bladehunter]

12 hours ago, grochol17 said:

It used to be the case (and might still be) that you could send your irons in to the USGA to have them checked to see if they are conforming.

Yep. You still can. Easy process.  Just call them up.  

[cutchemist42]

Thanks for the replies. I'll see if Golf Canada offers the same service of checking. 

[cutchemist42]

17 hours ago, bobfoster said:

I have heard nothing from the USGA that indicated they were having second thoughts. Nor do I expect to. Couple of reasons.

 

First, while there were wild and vigorous arguments about the wedge rules when they were first introduced, that is all now way yesterday's news. It isn't going to be argued about again - nor would the USGA even remotely want to open it for discussion. At this point, it is just part of the rules of golf, and the 2024 final extension to all rounds isn't (IMO) going to be altered.

 

Second, at the functional level, its now been a long time since the rules were published. The major OEMs all complained a lot at first, but ultimately just adapted. Even though the average amateur or weekender wasn't technically required to follow the new rules when they were first implemented in 2010, once the the OEMs cleared out their pre-2010 inventory they all started making clubs that conformed to the new rules almost immediately.

 

It has probably been over a decade since any manufacturer released a non-conforming wedge, even though the deadline was off in the future. No OEM (that I know of - club techs here can correct me if I'm wrong) bifurcated their lines - i.e., there wasn't one line of 2012 Vokey or Cleveland wedges marked "Required for tournament play", and another marked "Legal for amateurs until 2024". That just would have been downright stupid from a supply chain/inventory perspective.

 

So the vast majority of amateurs are already playing conforming wedges even if they have no clue what the details of the wedge rules are. If they bought their wedges any time in the last decade, they are already good. I suspect 2024 is just going to pass without anyone really noticing. 

 

Not a chance the USGA re-opens that old can of worms when there's actually virtually no reason to.

 

So I emailed Golf Canada about getting the clubs test and got this reply very quickly.

 

They actually responded that the decision to implement the rule was postponed to 2020 but further postponed further because of the pandemic. This is interesting cause this means there is a chance the rule isnt implemented for lesser competitions and normal play? Am I reading this wrong?

 

Might be chance I can avoid buying new clubs if the USGA decides theres no point to applying the rule to lesser rounds and competitions.

 

Attached a screenshot of the email.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by cutchemist42

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, grochol17 said:

 

The non-conforming grooves produced a ton of spin, but they were so harsh on golf balls... basically every time I hit a wedge I had to take a ball out of play.  I was actually kinda happy about the groove change because it has saved me a lot of money on golf balls!

Hah, yeah no kidding. I have one of the 2007 Spin Milled SM60-04 wedges that I snagged on eBay that was some sort of a JDM tour issue club. It was shorter than standard, had a Dynamic Gold with a butt code that indicated Japanese market, and had a leading edge and trailing edge grind added professionally. Also some extremely tiny weight porting that looks like it removed maybe 1/2 a gram and it was bent to 61*. You could completely stop the ball on 20ft chips from the fringe and actually spin it back with the right open face/speed combination. Felt like a cheat code, but shredded the ball too, even when slightly worn. 

I think it was Lee Trevino that made comments about these early SM wedges being a little unpredictable in that regard, going from "normal" spin to super juiced a little too easily. 

[Nessism]

As I recall there were lots of companies selling both CC and non CC groove wedges in the early part of 2010.  It wasn't a Titleist thing.  The heads come from China and manufacturers had extras which they continued to sell until they were gone.

 

That response from Golf Canada is spot on.  Basically, the Jan 1, 2024 date was somewhat arbitrary and was supposed to be reviewed and possibly extended.  I'm hoping they will anyway.  There are guys that enjoy playing with old clubs while keeping a handicap, and making these guys either give up their card or buy new clubs doesn't serve any purpose.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Nessism

[Provisional75]

8 hours ago, animalgolfs said:

These are conforming as well

Where are you getting this info?   I’m hoping you’re right but USGA site says i3 blade doesn’t meet criteria for new groove rule.  I’d love to be able use my set in a few years without side eyes.  (PGA associate)

[animalgolfs]

1 minute ago, Provisional75 said:

Where are you getting this info?   I’m hoping you’re right but USGA site says i3 blade doesn’t meet criteria for new groove rule.  I’d love to be able use my set in a few years without side eyes.  (PGA associate)

These are XG made for DiMarco 

[puttingmatt]

9 hours ago, grochol17 said:

 

I'm pretty sure that Mizuno has always used the same (or at least very similar) groove design in their irons that happens to be conforming under the current groove rule, so I think you're right that most old Mizuno irons would end up being approved for play if the USGA checked them.

All Mizuno's have V Grooves, and meet all equipment criteria set by the R&A and USGA.

[cardia10]

What would be interesting is for the USGA to publish a study now that they have seen the long term effects of the rule. The rule was 100% created for professional golfers to make their game more difficult. If you look at many statistics, proximity to the hole from almost all distances remains unchanged as an average for pro golfers. The rule didn't work. The USGA, in all of its wisdom, will do what they do with every other rule. Push forward and alienate the rest of us who aren't playing for millions every week so they get the satisfaction of thinking they screwed a pro or two along the way.

 

Wouldn't it be amazing if an organization existed to help golfers, keep the game simple and encourage new players to pick up the game. I guess it is just easier to add layers and layers to the rule book...

[ChipNRun]

On 11/2/2021 at 5:43 AM, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

The old Callaway X-Jaws wedges also had conforming and non-conforming versions. The non-conforming wedges had the bounce stamped on the toe of the sole, whereas the conforming wedges had "CC".

 

This came up with the Cleveland CG14 wedges

in a slightly different manner. The first-wave

wedges with gold Gelback came out in 2008

before the groove rule change. Then, after the

rule change, Cleveland a limited run of new-

groove Tour Zip CG14s with black Gelback.