distance debate

[Double Mocha Man]

So-Cal has a standing invitation to play golf with me. I'll cover the cost of his round. But he does know that I will be using a GPS app to measure his driver distance.

[smashdn]

4 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I don't find any of that to be all that important.  I have no bucket list.  I quit revering golf courses a long, long time ago.

It's not a bucket list thing for me.  More like admiring sculpture.  Interactive sculpture.

 

Not many art forms you can walk over and interact with the way you can golf architecture.

[ThinkingPlus]

11 minutes ago, smashdn said:

It's not a bucket list thing for me.  More like admiring sculpture.  Interactive sculpture.

 

Not many art forms you can walk over and interact with the way you can golf architecture.

I'm just happy to play on grass.

[So_Cal]

3 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 

Are you a current or former pro athlete?

 

You posses a natural talent most of us only dream of.

Not a pro athlete. Played football, basketball and baseball at a decent level.  
 

My father had quite a few NFL offers.  His body was shot though. 

[So_Cal]

2 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

So-Cal has a standing invitation to play golf with me. I'll cover the cost of his round. But he does know that I will be using a GPS app to measure his driver distance.

Double,

 

Very kind and may have to take you up on that.  More of a Chambers guy myself.  Love the firm and fast conditions.  Some of the muddier courses the ball definitely isn’t getting roll out. 👍

[So_Cal]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

It's not a bucket list thing for me.  More like admiring sculpture.  Interactive sculpture.

 

Not many art forms you can walk over and interact with the way you can golf architecture.

That’s a big part of it for me too.  I like the art that is great courses.  It’s meant to be interacted with.  The tech removes some of that engagement.  I feel MacKenzie, Ross, George Thomas, etc. were exceptional artists.  I love playing on their masterpieces.  

Edited July 12, 2022 by So_Cal
Spelling

[bekgolf]

12 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

Double,

 

Very kind and may have to take you up on that.  More of a Chambers guy myself.  Love the firm and fast conditions.  Some of the muddier courses the ball definitely isn’t getting roll out. 👍

Chambers Bay in Pierce county?  Wow.  When you are done beating yourself up on that track come a little ways north to have some fun.

[ChipStrokes]

25 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

That’s a big part of it for me too.  I like the art that is great courses.  It’s meant to be interacted with.  The tech removes some of that engagement.  I feel MacKenzie, Ross, George Thomas, etc. were exceptional artists.  I love playing on their masterpieces.  

you still have the ability to “engage” with every inch of the golf course if you want to. no matter how far you hit the ball, you get to walk along every hill, valley, dip, and undulation on your way to it. 

 

unless you’re in a cart.  in which case any romanticizing about course architecture is just lip service anyway. 

 

and let’s say whoever designed the course built a bulk of the par 4s with a tee shot of 250-260 yards. there’s nothing stopping you from hitting a 250 yard tee shot on those holes. leave the driver in the bag, pull the 3 or 5 wood and “play the course as it was intended”

[So_Cal]

6 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

you still have the ability to “engage” with every inch of the golf course if you want to. no matter how far you hit the ball, you get to walk along every hill, valley, dip, and undulation on your way to it. 

 

unless you’re in a cart.  in which case any romanticizing about course architecture is just lip service anyway. 

 

and let’s say whoever designed the course built a bulk of the par 4s with a tee shot of 250-260 yards. there’s nothing stopping you from hitting a 250 yard tee shot on those holes. leave the driver in the bag, pull the 3 or 5 wood and “play the course as it was intended”

I respect your opinion 100%.  My comments are generally for major championships.   If the USGA is taking the Open to classic venues the design and tech should match somewhat.  I feel it doesn’t.  For amateurs (other than US Am,etc) I don’t think this issue is of importance.  

[So_Cal]

24 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

Chambers Bay in Pierce county?  Wow.  When you are done beating yourself up on that track come a little ways north to have some fun.

Yeah man Chambers was my hang.  Great course and people.  

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

3 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

you still have the ability to “engage” with every inch of the golf course if you want to. no matter how far you hit the ball, you get to walk along every hill, valley, dip, and undulation on your way to it. 

 

unless you’re in a cart.  in which case any romanticizing about course architecture is just lip service anyway. 

 

and let’s say whoever designed the course built a bulk of the par 4s with a tee shot of 250-260 yards. there’s nothing stopping you from hitting a 250 yard tee shot on those holes. leave the driver in the bag, pull the 3 or 5 wood and “play the course as it was intended”

Which is why I chose to play Persimmon and blades at large number of shorter venues in the UK which have architectural pedigrees.....and I walk and sometimes carry, even into my late 70s.

[Titleist99]

6 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

you still have the ability to “engage” with every inch of the golf course if you want to. no matter how far you hit the ball, you get to walk along every hill, valley, dip, and undulation on your way to it. 

 

unless you’re in a cart.  in which case any romanticizing about course architecture is just lip service anyway. 

 

and let’s say whoever designed the course built a bulk of the par 4s with a tee shot of 250-260 yards. there’s nothing stopping you from hitting a 250 yard tee shot on those holes. leave the driver in the bag, pull the 3 or 5 wood and “play the course as it was intended”

Here's the thing .....some golfers think that it's their birth right to hit driver on every hole and they don't want anyone taking driver out of their hands....when the object of the game is strategy and low scores.

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

Here's the thing .....some golfers think that it's their birth right to hit driver on every hole and they don't want anyone taking driver out of their hands....when the object of the game is strategy and low scores.

Can you define strategy?

[Titleist99]

14 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Can you define strategy?

Hitting 3w when trouble is on the left and right, laying back to a perfect yardage, coming into a hole from the proper side of the fairway, taking spin off to bounce the ball into a tight pin.....etc.....

Giving yourself the best scoring opportunity. IMO

[TLUBulldogGolf]

3 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Hitting 3w when trouble is on the left and right, laying back to a perfect yardage, coming into a hole from the proper side of the fairway, taking spin off to bounce the ball into a tight pin.....etc.....

Giving yourself the best scoring opportunity. IMO

 

It's interesting to invoke old school accepted strategy while being anti-rollback. Laying back to a yardage and angle chasing have been shown to be outdated thinking in many cases. Closer to the hole is nearly always better unless you bring trouble into play. 

[Titleist99]

1 minute ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

It's interesting to invoke old school accepted strategy while being anti-rollback. Laying back to a yardage and angle chasing have been shown to be outdated thinking in many cases. Closer to the hole is nearly always better unless you bring trouble into play. 

Yet, only foolish player plays bomb gouge. Closer to the hole is only successful if your in the proper position. Watch any televised tournament and all you hear from the pros that know is...."You must be in the fairway"  you hardly hear.... "You must hit it 300 yards on this hole".  Just my opinion.

 

Funny that you don't see many prolific winners in the top twenty in driving distance, certainly very few.

[golfer07840]

9 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

It's interesting to invoke old school accepted strategy while being anti-rollback. Laying back to a yardage and angle chasing have been shown to be outdated thinking in many cases. Closer to the hole is nearly always better unless you bring trouble into play. 

This is true. Stats back up the thought of, if you have to lay up, just hit it as close as you can and don't worry about being at a perfect wedge yardage. Even if that means putting it into a bunker. Odds are, the elite player, will be closer to the hole for birdie from there, than from say 90 yards out.  

[TLUBulldogGolf]

8 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Yet, only foolish player plays bomb gouge. Closer to the hole is only successful if your in the proper position. Watch any televised tournament and all you hear from the pros that know is...."You must be in the fairway"  you hardly hear.... "You must hit it 300 yards on this hole".  Just my opinion.

 

Funny that you don't see many prolific winners in the top twenty in driving distance, certainly very few.

 

I honestly don't care about bomb and gouge. Of course you would prefer to be in the fairway, that gives maximum control. Does that mean they are laying back to ensure it? I would say most aren't playing that way anymore unless the hole dictates it. Driving accuracy stats certainly don't reflect that approach. 

 

And yeah funny just Rahm, Rory, DJ, JT, Scheffler...

[Titleist99]

10 minutes ago, golfer07840 said:

This is true. Stats back up the thought of, if you have to lay up, just hit it as close as you can and don't worry about being at a perfect wedge yardage. Even if that means putting it into a bunker. Odds are, the elite player, will be closer to the hole for birdie from there, than from say 90 yards out.  

And there's where the problem in modern television golf starts. A proper bunker should be a penalty, not a destination. Try that strategy at St. Andrews.

[So_Cal]

24 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

It's interesting to invoke old school accepted strategy while being anti-rollback. Laying back to a yardage and angle chasing have been shown to be outdated thinking in many cases. Closer to the hole is nearly always better unless you bring trouble into play. 

Like you said the stats/science show that bomb and gouge is the best way to play.  The loss of true strategy is what I lament at the highest level. 

[golfer07840]

4 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

And there's where the problem in modern television golf starts. A proper bunker should be a penalty, not a destination. Try that strategy at St. Andrews.

I hear you. 

 

I'm sure someone will say the sand wedges are too good, so need to roll them back too. 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

2 minutes ago, golfer07840 said:

I hear you. 

 

I'm sure someone will say the sand wedges are too good, so need to roll them back too. 

 

Nope, just the sand. But look how much they whined at Southern Hills. Typical PGA tour sand is so much easier to play out of.

[clevited]

13 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

Like you said the stats/science show that bomb and gouge is the best way to play.  The loss of true strategy is what I lament at the highest level. 

 

It has always been the best way to play.

[So_Cal]

20 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

It has always been the best way to play.

Agree to disagree on this one.  When you had to hit a 5 iron out of US Open rough rather than a wedge accuracy was more important.  

[Anser3]

I know it's been stated here before.  If they want to roll back distance, grow the rough higher.  Make the courses even more penal for errant shots on professional tours. 

 

The only equipment I would possibly be in favor of ruling back is the ball.  It is also the easiest to roll back.  Once a new restricted-flight ball is made, the current balls will remain in stores and at retail for some time.  they will sell out fairly quickly.  Amateur tournaments could still dictate what balls are legal for use in those tournaments.  Eventually, everybody will be forced to play the restricted-flight ball and some manufacturers will still make non-conforming balls just like the do now. 

 

Several years ago, Johnny Miller addressed this in (I believe) Golf Digest.  He said to let the manufacturers make any ball they want using any materials and with any dimple pattern they choose (they will all still have their respective IP's).  The only caveat:  the ball must float.  I don't recall the month/year because I started receiving Golf Digest in November 2003 and kept every issue up until a small purge for the 2003/04 years a couple years ago  (needed to make space).  To go off on a tangent, I'm about to quit subscribing to Golf Digest.  The magazine is much smaller than it used to be.  They also basically eliminated the Hot List issue (now it's a separate issue entirely that requires a separate purchase--only drivers are in the Hot List issue sent to subscribers).  I just enjoyed reading the reviews on the clubs (and took all club reviews with a grain of salt).

[golfer07840]

32 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Nope, just the sand. But look how much they whined at Southern Hills. Typical PGA tour sand is so much easier to play out of.

They just redid the bunkers at one of the courses I play at. Nice, fluffy white sand. It was so easy to hit out of. 

 

Nothing better than nice new bunkers. 

[Anser3]

14 hours ago, So_Cal said:

Jack and Tiger both know the relationship between distance and golf courses for 0.1% of golfers is off kilter.  33 majors gives you some credibility.  

 

 

Off Topic slightly, but the reference to 33 Majors is interesting only because  alsoJack had 19 runner-up finishes in Majors.  The fact he was #1 or #2 in Majors 37 times is baffling.  I am not checking now to see if this is still true (no reason to believe it isn't) but at one time at least as late as 2005ish, no other 2 golfers combined  in the history of the Tour had as many 1st place and runner-ups as Jack did (by himself)  in Majors.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Anser3
added a word

[smashdn]

45 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

And there's where the problem in modern television golf starts. A proper bunker should be a penalty, not a destination. Try that strategy at St. Andrews.

 

I thought you were on-board with televisuon golf?  PGAT dictates the type of sand at most of its stops to ensure consistency and playability.

 

I'm all for hazards being hazardous as well.

[Simpsonia]

38 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

Agree to disagree on this one.  When you had to hit a 5 iron out of US Open rough rather than a wedge accuracy was more important.  

 

But the stars of yesteryear that you guys keep going on about, Hogan, Sneed, Jack, etc were the Rory's of their day, and were just as proportionally longer than the rest of the pack as Rory is today. So yes, it was bomb and gouge in the sense that they had 2-3 clubs less than all of their competitors in on the approach. The only thing you seem to be hung up on is the number/letter stamped on the bottom of the club. 

[Htk084]

I want to see modern equipment I just want to see more spin.  Is that too much to ask?

 

The low spin stuff made the game get carried away in my opinion