distance debate

[TLUBulldogGolf]

2 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

so let me get this straight...

 

if the ball goes 320, it's illegal?

 

but if you're massively wind-aided and it goes 320, you're all good.

 

i see now.  this won't cause any problems at all.

 

how about just putting a huge net at the 300 yard mark, 60 yards wide and 150 feet tall?

 

The test is already done for overall distance. My understanding is all of those things are controlled for, and they use a 120 MPH swing. Obviously there are players that can swing faster than that, they aren't suddenly playing an illegal ball. It's also why they want to update the standard to a higher SS to reign the ball in. 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

2 hours ago, clevited said:

 

@gvogel Type in Interview with Chris Voshall on youtube.

 

Opening 20 seconds of the video (from a competing website so I don't think I can post without it being taken down).

 

Mizuno's Chris Voshall: "If you tell us we have to develop a set of clubs for them (points) and a set of clubs for them (points), there's cost there that we will pass on".

 

Interviewer: "Because those guys don't pay you (pointing)."

 

Mizuno's Chris Voshall: "They don't pay us, absolutely." 

 

Interviewer:  "So somebody has to eat that."

 

Mizuno's Chris Voshall: "Someone has to eat that and it's not going to be us."

 

This is an example of what is going to happen and inevitably, it would be better for them if the consumer adopts the "pro gear" and I am sure they will do everything they can to make that happen.

 

What do you expect an OEM to say?

 

I don't disagree that its a large ask to bifurcate, my preference is still to just change the ball. But they all already make all kinds of special stuff for the tour players, now all of a sudden it's going to be a problem?

Edited July 27, 2022 by TLUBulldogGolf

[clevited]

3 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

What do you expect an OEM to say?

 

Usually what people want to hear not that prices will go up.  What is your point though with even asking that?  If they say prices are going to go up, I am going to believe them.

[Pastit]

23 minutes ago, subrew said:

 

Driving distance is not a measurement of the single longest drive on any of the holes on that given day.  It isn't even an average of all drives on that day.  They tend to pick one or two holes that don't suffer from uphill/downhill lies in the landing zone, and use just those holes for the driving distance stats.

 

So yes, you saw Rory hit a 360yd drive.  It could have been wind aided.  Downhill lie landing zone aided.  Or "dogleg" aided.  Or all three.

 

But on the holes the PGA actually used to generates those stats for that event/day, he averaged 316.8.  

On the ET/ DPWT I believe it might be that two holes are selected running in opposite directions and a simple average calculated. So the variance in real life would be enormous if this is indeed the case. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Pastit

[MattC555]

39 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Chris Voshall: Product engineer and marketing manager.  He has his feet in both ponds and regardless of you and my squabble over where the costs are or how much they may be, he speaks the truth.  The cost will be passed down to the consumer.  The reason will be due to the addition of the "pro tour line" of clubs in addition to their standard line of clubs.  Where the money adders are located as a result of that forced change don't ultimately matter.  Do you work at all in the world of manufacturing?  You seem like you lack considerable insight that I find to be common knowledge.

 

I could see the big companies getting rid of their low spin drivers and re allocating those resources to a pro conforming driver.  Smaller budget companies like Vosh's Mizuno would probably be more directly and negatively affected by bifurcation. 

 

As a design engineer I enjoy the fantasy land idea of engineering development costing peanuts.  I greatly wish to live in said fantasy land.  Open checkbook R&D would be a dream.  Too bad its a pipe dream.

[gvogel]

44 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Chris Voshall: Product engineer and marketing manager.  He has his feet in both ponds and regardless of you and my squabble over where the costs are or how much they may be, he speaks the truth.  The cost will be passed down to the consumer.  The reason will be due to the addition of the "pro tour line" of clubs in addition to their standard line of clubs.  Where the money adders are located as a result of that forced change don't ultimately matter.  Do you work at all in the world of manufacturing?  You seem like you lack considerable insight that I find to be common knowledge.

I stand by my comments.  There will be no "pro tour line of clubs," just a driver or two.  Fairway woods will be made with less springy faces.  That is hardly a "pro tour line of clubs."  As a product engineer and marketing manager, Chris is probably prone to exaggeration.  

 

And yes, I have worked in a manufacturing operation, and at a higher level than product engineer and marketing manager.  You have to look at the extra costs on a marginal level, from an overall perspective, not on their singular level.

[clevited]

8 minutes ago, gvogel said:

I stand by my comments.  There will be no "pro tour line of clubs," just a driver or two.  Fairway woods will be made with less springy faces.  That is hardly a "pro tour line of clubs."  As a product engineer and marketing manager, Chris is probably prone to exaggeration.  

 

And yes, I have worked in a manufacturing operation, and at a higher level than product engineer and marketing manager.  You have to look at the extra costs on a marginal level, from an overall perspective, not on their singular level.

 

Seems to me you are downplaying the significance of such a change to equipment to suit your narrative.  You just had another manufacturing professional say the opposite of what you are saying.  I will reiterate, the big picture is the costs go up, why (which we are squabbling about) ultimately doesn't matter.  The thing that matters is if RBs make new equipment requirements for pros like they propose, cost will go up and the consumer will have to cover that cost increase.  If you agree to that, we really don't disagree with anything but where some of that cost lies within club manufacturing company.  

Edited July 27, 2022 by clevited

[TLUBulldogGolf]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

Usually what people want to hear not that prices will go up.  What is your point though with even asking that?  If they say prices are going to go up, I am going to believe them.

 

Prices are going to go up regardless it seems.

 

They can work with the USGA/R&A where the impact to them is minimized, if they really do want to go through with both club and ball changes. If they don't adopt an MOI reduction and just reduced CT/COR I wonder how different the driver has to be designed. Either way OEMs are making a lot of stuff for Tour guys with either tweaks or entirely new heads that are never planning to see retail. 

 

[buckeyefl]

"Come get our new driver/ball that doesn't go as far as our previous models"

 

I can't wait for the people to rush to the store to be the first to own one.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

1 minute ago, buckeyefl said:

"Come get our new driver/ball that doesn't go as far as our previous models"

 

I can't wait for the people to rush to the store to be the first to own one.

There are people in this very thread arguing it will happen..

[subrew]

26 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

 

I could see the big companies getting rid of their low spin drivers and re allocating those resources to a pro conforming driver.  Smaller budget companies like Vosh's Mizuno would probably be more directly and negatively affected by bifurcation. 

 

As a design engineer I enjoy the fantasy land idea of engineering development costing peanuts.  I greatly wish to live in said fantasy land.  Open checkbook R&D would be a dream.  Too bad its a pipe dream.

 

I love the idea of a PGA/R&A/USGA funded R&D program, run with the OEMs.  One could be focused on the balls.  All of the ball makers have a line of super soft compression balls, many just hide it.  Wilson has the 29 compression Duo Soft.  I think Taylormade owns Noodle, who has the 30 compression Long and Soft.  Many others have Asian market balls too.  It would be interesting to see them test back-to-back against their respective crop of tour balls, using tour plays and current tour equipment.  Then, see them optimize those super soft balls.  Most of them are cheaper 2-piece balls with Ionomer covers.  What about a 3/4 piece urethane ball with super low compression.  

 

Likewise driver head designs.  If a generic head size is dictated (say 150-200cc) how do they shape them?  Tall faces like the triple diamond heads?  Or shallow face, weight low and back for high launch like a G425 or Mavrik Max fairway wood? 

 

It would be a fun project to be a part of.    

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

The cost will be passed down to the consumer.

 

Yep, I'll be happy to pay more money for clubs that don't go as far...

[Double Mocha Man]

31 minutes ago, buckeyefl said:

"Come get our new driver/ball that doesn't go as far as our previous models"

 

I can't wait for the people to rush to the store to be the first to own one.

 

I've touched on this before.  If the OEM's can get the ruling bodies to be hands off then they'll be happy to make "rollback" clubs for the touring pros IF they're allowed to get creative with the clubs for the rank and file.  If they let loose and make drivers that fly 30% farther and irons that are 30% more accurate for the average Joe then there's a huge revenue/profit to be had.  They will not think twice...

[Double Mocha Man]

I know, I know, I'm living in some alternate utopian golf universe, but it would great to have drivers that go 30% farther, and 30% more accurate irons.  As long as the usual guys in my foursome still have to use their old clubs.  😁

[farmer]

3 hours ago, clevited said:

 

Chris Voshall: Product engineer and marketing manager.  He has his feet in both ponds and regardless of you and my squabble over where the costs are or how much they may be, he speaks the truth.  The cost will be passed down to the consumer.  The reason will be due to the addition of the "pro tour line" of clubs in addition to their standard line of clubs.  Where the money adders are located as a result of that forced change don't ultimately matter.  Do you work at all in the world of manufacturing?  You seem like you lack considerable insight that I find to be common knowledge.

I said early on that it will be us who pays for a separate "TourLine" of clubs.  Molds from the 80's-90's are not around anymore.  Going to steel, per G's plan, means an entirely new production line, new sourcing for material, new designs, it's just not that simple.  

[roger99]

9 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

I dislike the outlier argument. Before Tiger came along they were saying there was too much talent to be dominant. There is a huge randomness and luck factor in golf and it takes a lot to rise to a level where you can overcome that consistently. And no one has been good enough to rise to that level. Ball striking is not far less important, the data does not back that up. I’d make the argument that driving now has an outsized role in the game but you still have to hit it well to win. Tournament winners are generally hitting it among the best tee to green and probably making a decent amount of putts, there are few crazy heater weeks where tournaments are won off short game. Cam Smith’s putting at The Open comes to mind but he was still hitting it pretty well.

 

If the modern short game is so much more difficult (I agree it’s more difficult in some respects) that seems like an area where you could separate yourself more.

 

Bottom line is we now know the best strategy is to smash it most of the time, so let’s dial that back some, if it makes them think twice then even better.

 

Also a strange argument to make that only the best players are benefiting from modern equipment and at the same time arguing that it would be terrible for golf to dial back said equipment.

 

 

 

i agree with a lot of what you write on here.

 

On outliers.. yes we know ball striking, especially approach play, is important, but we dont know how important it is relative to 30 years ago, because we dont have the data.

 

however, it seems logical to me that if you make ball striking easier, its harder for great ball strikers to rise to the top. Your proximity might be only 5 foot closer than tour average, as opposed to 10 feet with traditional equipment.

 

why does short game not separate players now in the way that ball striking used to? Interesting question, definitely. Perhaps its that a putting stroke is the least technical part of golf so its hard to have a radically better technique than anyone else. Or perhaps the traditional game just happened to be the closest to fully examining all skills required to be good.

[roger99]

9 hours ago, clevited said:

This arguing about why there is parity is silly.  Golf is unlike other sports.  Golf has a ceiling and always has.  You can be an amazing golfer but it is exponentially harder to shoot a 59, vs a 69 no matter your talent level and conditions on the course on a given day.  You could be a robot and not beat a player that gets hot and sinks 80 foot putts for eagles on back to back holes on the final day.  That is golf.  

 

The other thing that isn't being considered is the will and determination to win.  That is not a talent, but a drive.  Talent wise, I believe there is parity.  Desire to win, I believe there just isn't as much of it.  Tiger and Jack hold almost unbreakable records.  The purses are so large that you are a millionaire after one tour win and that could take the wind out of a pro's sails thus diminishing their drive to win.  Look at Rory.  Obviously has the talent, but he isn't becoming Tiger like for 2 reasons.  1) He doesn't have the drive 2) talent parity, he is no longer the only one comparable to Tiger in talent.  I think DJ, Rory, JT, JS, Colin Mor, Heck even Bubba Watson all have the talent to win any given tournament but because of parity, because of chance, because of lack of drive they won't.  

 

This is all just my opinion of course based on my observations over the years.

 

again, why does this not happen in other sports though. Right now there isnt a major sport I can think of that doesnt have at least one or two active participants in it who are in the conversation for top half dozen of all time. F1, boxing, cricket, soccer, tennis, athletics, basketball, gridiron etc etc..

 

A lot of these guys get paid a lot more than golfers, and most are contracted so get paid the same whether they perform or not. But there isnt an active golfer in the top 20 all time major winners. Are golfers just exceptionally lazy and unmotivated? I doubt it. Its fine to express your feelings and we should all acknowledge that, but at some point reason and logic has to come into the equation over emotion.

[Double Mocha Man]

If you look at the tour winners every week it's usually the guys that putt well that week.  And good putting can come and go in a flash.

[clevited]

13 hours ago, roger99 said:

 

again, why does this not happen in other sports though. Right now there isnt a major sport I can think of that doesnt have at least one or two active participants in it who are in the conversation for top half dozen of all time. F1, boxing, cricket, soccer, tennis, athletics, basketball, gridiron etc etc..

 

A lot of these guys get paid a lot more than golfers, and most are contracted so get paid the same whether they perform or not. But there isnt an active golfer in the top 20 all time major winners. Are golfers just exceptionally lazy and unmotivated? I doubt it. Its fine to express your feelings and we should all acknowledge that, but at some point reason and logic has to come into the equation over emotion.

 

I addressed that in my post you replied to.

 

Btw, really?  Me using emotion to make an arguement? Logic and reason?  You have to be Miles.

[roger99]

26 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I addressed that in my post you replied to.

 

Btw, really?  Me using emotion to make an arguement? Logic and reason?  You have to be Miles.

 

so you had two arguments

 

1. too much luck involved

 

my answer, so why didnt this apply to previous generations of golfers? what happened post tiger 1.0?

 

2. no drive to win money comes too easily

 

doesnt happen in any other sport I know of, including ones that are much better rewarded and have contracted players 

 

 

Im all ears if you or anyone else can explain. I will respect all your feelings and emotions as that is important and I am down with that.

 

who is miles? do i care?

Edited July 28, 2022 by roger99

[cardia10]

Yeah, I can't wait to watch the 3M Tampax Mary Kay open where the pro's hit it shorter than me off the tee. I'd be so overjoyed to watch that for 72 holes...

[clevited]

58 minutes ago, roger99 said:

 

so you had two arguments

 

1. too much luck involved

 

my answer, so why didnt this apply to previous generations of golfers? what happened post tiger 1.0?

 

2. no drive to win money comes too easily

 

doesnt happen in any other sport I know of, including ones that are much better rewarded and have contracted players 

 

 

Im all ears if you or anyone else can explain. I will respect all your feelings and emotions as that is important and I am down with that.

 

who is miles? do i care?

 

Nope, I am satisfied with my position and level of explanation already provided.  Regarding miles, you are a new account and seem to be from Europe so far I gather.  You bring up his same talking points, and seem to try extremely hard to be cordial and apologetic all the while interlacing subtle jabs and sarcasm of the level and type he did.  If I were a betting man.........

 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now.  If you are him, you will show yourself outright soon enough.  He wouldn't be able to keep a charade going forever.  If you are not him, or if you are him and miraculously keep a more friendly (though very fake) attitude going, well this thread might just remain fun and somewhat interesting.  Either way, it makes me happy.

Edited July 28, 2022 by clevited

[roger99]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

Yeah, I can't wait to watch the 3M Tampax Mary Kay open where the pro's hit it shorter than me off the tee. I'd be so overjoyed to watch that for 72 holes...

if you can tell the distance on the television without being told it by the top tracer you are a better man than me

 

perhaps we can just get the announcers to fib a little? 

[roger99]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

 

Nope, I am satisfied with my position and level of explanation already provided.  Regarding miles, you are a new account and seem to be from Europe so far I gather.  You bring up his same talking points, and seem to try extremely hard to be cordial and apologetic all the while interlacing subtle jabs and sarcasm of the level and type he did.  If I were a betting man.........

 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now.  If you are him, you will show yourself outright soon enough.  He wouldn't be able to keep a charade going forever.  If you are not him, or if you are him and miraculously keep a more friendly (though very fake) attitude going, well this thread might just remain fun and somewhat interesting.  Either way, it makes me happy.

that’s all absolutely fine

 

are we to assume that if we ask you about trends in tv audiences, green fees, housing prices, hospital waiting lists and global warming..

 

your answer will be ‘luck’..? 

[ChipStrokes]

4 minutes ago, roger99 said:

if you can tell the distance on the television without being told it by the top tracer you are a better man than me

 

perhaps we can just get the announcers to fib a little? 

you're right.  there isn't much visual difference between a 270 and 300 yard drive on TV.  without being told how far they went, or seeing the top tracer, most viewers would have no idea.

 

but how do you do that on a broadcast and still keep a viewer engaged?

 

"justin thomas ready with his approach here on 14.  he has a comfortable mid iron distance to a back pin after a drive that came to rest on the left side of the fairway."

 

 sorry, but i almost fell asleep just writing that.  i know i know, you'll likely say "it doesnt matter to me, i watch golf on mute..."

 

but not everyone does that.  and knowing distances lets the viewer engage with what's going on.  

[clevited]

16 minutes ago, roger99 said:

that’s all absolutely fine

 

are we to assume that if we ask you about trends in tv audiences, green fees, housing prices, hospital waiting lists and global warming..

 

your answer will be ‘luck’..? 

 

You are asking me questions about it again, I have said my part and it seems you don't understand or didn't read what I wrote based on your "will be luck?" question.  We are done here, I know who you are.

[smashdn]

23 hours ago, clevited said:

 

@gvogel Type in Interview with Chris Voshall on youtube.

 

Opening 20 seconds of the video (from a competing website so I don't think I can post without it being taken down).

 

Mizuno's Chris Voshall: "If you tell us we have to develop a set of clubs for them (points) and a set of clubs for them (points), there's cost there that we will pass on".

 

Interviewer: "Because those guys don't pay you (pointing)."

 

Mizuno's Chris Voshall: "They don't pay us, absolutely." 

 

Interviewer:  "So somebody has to eat that."

 

Mizuno's Chris Voshall: "Someone has to eat that and it's not going to be us."

 

This is an example of what is going to happen and inevitably, it would be better for them if the consumer adopts the "pro gear" and I am sure they will do everything they can to make that happen.

 

Guess what?  Those guys (pointing to tour players) already don't pay for anything.  Who pays?  (Pointing to chest) me and you.

 

Also, nobody is saying that any oem has to develop and manufacture two different sets of clubs.  A) that is a choice they as OEM's must make and B) are you going to make a pro version of your super game-improvement iron or game improvement irons?  And in that same vein, are you going to make an "amateur approved" version of your forged MB's?

 

I don't particularly like the idea of bifurcation but it in practicality, it already exists to an extent.

[smashdn]

20 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

I've touched on this before.  If the OEM's can get the ruling bodies to be hands off then they'll be happy to make "rollback" clubs for the touring pros IF they're allowed to get creative with the clubs for the rank and file.  If they let loose and make drivers that fly 30% farther and irons that are 30% more accurate for the average Joe then there's a huge revenue/profit to be had.  They will not think twice...

 

They can make them all day long.  Handicap indices have shown that "Average Joe" is no more capable of shooting lower scores with his "toaster-on-a-stick," amateur targeted ball, and super game improvement irons, than Average Joe was 40 years ago using persimmon, balatas/rock flites, and blades. 

[MattC555]

24 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

They can make them all day long.  Handicap indices have shown that "Average Joe" is no more capable of shooting lower scores with his "toaster-on-a-stick," amateur targeted ball, and super game improvement irons, than Average Joe was 40 years ago using persimmon, balatas/rock flites, and blades. 

 Say what?

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/a-closer-look-at-handicap-data-shows-just-how-much-golfers-have-improved-in-recent-years

[smashdn]

14 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

 Say what?

 

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/a-closer-look-at-handicap-data-shows-just-how-much-golfers-have-improved-in-recent-years

 

That's what I get for parroting a maxim without checking my facts.

 

However, I would anticipate a link to where those numbers come from not just a reference that they came from the USGA.  Poor journalism not to include the source and basis for his graphs.

Edited July 28, 2022 by smashdn