distance debate

[Mirsir69]

8 minutes ago, Danielson said:

What course has a 20 yard wide fairway? I need to make sure I never accidentally wind up there, the lost balls would bankrupt me.

 

  

 

We saw at Bethpage when Brooks won, and Winged Foot when Bryson won that long rough just isn't that much of a deterrent. You're actually better off being a long ball hitter because you're hitting a wedge out the deep s*** instead of an 8 iron. These guys shouldn't be on equal footing with players who hit it 40 yards shorter, but it seems like at this point there's no real penalty for missing the fairway because these guys can still generate so much spin. I'm coming around to the idea that we don't have a distance problem but there is a LOT of room for improvement on tour course design and setup. I'd be interested to see what happens if they started shaving down the green surrounds everywhere and putting flags in borderline unpinnable spots.

Totally get that, and I agree that in general guys who are longer have an advantage. I would always rather take a wedge out of the rough than a long iron. Just like In any sport, athleticism, size, and talent allow you to play better and beat out the competition. I don’t think that we should make courses longer to accommodate guys who are shorter off the tee.

 

When Bryson won though it was because his whole game was pretty sharp, not just because of his length off the tee. He’s very obviously struggling right now and his wedges are awful. Look at how much the field struggled out of the rough during this last years US open. People were visibly upset to end up in the rough, it was obviously a deterrent to some extent. When brooks won at Bethpage the entire field was fun to watch. It was a shootout. I don’t think anyone was really complaining about his length off the tee then but maybe I’m wrong?  
 

I think if we make the course longer we actually push guys like Collin morokikawa (one of my favorite golfers to watch) out of the picture. How cool is it that he competes regularly with these guys who hit the ball 50 yards further than him and he beats them out quite often! I’m a big fan of tough flag positions for tour events though, approach shots and tough putts are my favorite thing to watch. Nothing is cooler than when a strong iron player stuffs a tough flag position with a mid/short iron. 

[Titleist99]

26 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

ryder cups and majors galore. Then there's you..

 

 

poulter 'would still be sellin mars bars'

 

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/watch-ian-poulter-hilariously-struggles-to-hit-a-persimmon-driver

 

woosnam would reduce the size of the driver head

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/british-open-2018-ian-woosnam-pitches-blowing-up-the-old-course-and-other-radical-ideas-to-the-randa

 

Faldo

 

Another player reminiscing about the good old days....If no one could drive back in Faldo's days..... what does that say about him if his opponents were creampuffs...players are just better now.

[milesgiles]

11 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Seen/read all of the above, but at least you are finally making a more honest effort.  

 

-Poulter, let him rummage through a bunch of persimmons and get used to it with some practice, then talk to me.  I am sure he will get along fine even with his "ball striking" reputation.

 

-Woosie doesn't specify anything other than make head sizes smaller, still does nothing to support your 3w sized driver.  I have been asking you for additional changes beyond just size such that your vision would actually happen.  So far you refuse to admit your idea isn't enough, not even close.

 

-Faldo, have seen his interview have read his stuff, have seen his commentary where he mentions things like this.  Same issue, smaller heads...what size does it really need to be? where is the CG?, MOI?, face depth and width?, Max/min loft?, change max allowed length?, overall weight of the club be limited? CT?..........This is what I am looking for, details that make it actually a viable idea. 

 

Elaborate please on your idea as it requires it.

 

 

doesnt need elaborating. They all say the same thing, that the easy and obvious thing to change first is head size.

 

You could go on and stipulate changing other driver specs, but it wouldnt change what they see as the first and possibly only required step.

 

Its a good idea to wear a seat belt when driving. You are effectively saying 'but what about not speeding? Airbags? Zero breathalyser limits? Roll cages ? etc etc etc'. None of that changes that it is still a good idea to wear a seat belt.

 

Point made, none.

[clevited]

3 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

doesnt need elaborating. They all say the same thing, that the easy and obvious thing to change first is head size.

 

You could go on and stipulate changing other driver specs, but it wouldnt change what they see as the first and possibly only required step.

 

Its a good idea to wear a seat belt when driving. You are effectively saying 'but what about not speeding? Airbags? Zero breathalyser limits? Roll cages ? etc etc etc'. None of that changes that it is still a good idea to wear a seat belt.

 

Point made, none.

 

In your world.......

Edited May 10, 2022 by clevited

[milesgiles]

5 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Another player reminiscing about the good old days....If no one could drive back in Faldo's days..... what does that say about him if his opponents were creampuffs...players are just better now.

 

if the driver head wasnt three times the volume as then, we'd have a basis for comparison

[MUNIGRIT]

8 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Another player reminiscing about the good old days....If no one could drive back in Faldo's days..... what does that say about him if his opponents were creampuffs...players are just better now.

They just can't handle that the players of today are better accross the board than back when guys were choking to give Faldo the Master's. Faldo washed out pretty quick once Tiger and Phil started taking off.

[MUNIGRIT]

5 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

if the driver head wasnt three times the volume as then, we'd have a basis for comparison

They all hit 3w, 5w and even 7 w just fine. Its like you don't even pay attention to that.

[Danielson]

6 minutes ago, Mirsir69 said:

Totally get that, and I agree that in general guys who are longer have an advantage. I would always rather take a wedge out of the rough than a long iron. Just like In any sport, athleticism, size, and talent allow you to play better and beat out the competition. I don’t think that we should make courses longer to accommodate guys who are shorter off the tee.

 

When Bryson won though it was because his whole game was pretty sharp, not just because of his length off the tee. He’s very obviously struggling right now and his wedges are awful. Look at how much the field struggled out of the rough during this last years US open. People were visibly upset to end up in the rough, it was obviously a deterrent to some extent. When brooks won at Bethpage the entire field was fun to watch. It was a shootout. I don’t think anyone was really complaining about his length off the tee then but maybe I’m wrong?  
 

I think if we make the course longer we actually push guys like Collin morokikawa (one of my favorite golfers to watch) out of the picture. How cool is it that he competes regularly with these guys who hit the ball 50 yards further than him and he beats them out quite often! I’m a big fan of tough flag positions for tour events though, approach shots and tough putts are my favorite thing to watch. Nothing is cooler than when a strong iron player stuffs a tough flag position with a mid/short iron. 

 

Yeah I don't think either of those guys necessarily just muscled it out without anything but distance, but it definitely shapes their game differently. I do remember people saying that Brooks was playing very boring golf at Bethpage, but that may have just been my circle of golf news.

 

I definitely agree that lengthening a course won't help. At the end of the day what I want to see (and sounds like you do too) is guys being really creative on their approaches and chips. And we DO see that so it's not like the tour has a problem, but I think they could set courses up to allow even more of that. Augusta does such a great job of it, a lot of courses do a good job, but I don't see why that shouldn't be every single week with the amount of money that's rolling around.

[clevited]

3 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

They all hit 3w, 5w and even 7 w just fine. Its like you don't even pay attention to that.

 

The kicker is that he fails to see that persimmon was usually short, like 3w length.  His hero's weren't miraculous with their ball striking like he thinks they were.  The fact that pros today can put a golf ball sized wear mark on a 45 inch driver "toaster", is incredibly impressive.

Edited May 10, 2022 by clevited

[djmohab2]

Didn't they start "Tigerproofing" golf courses before the advent of the 460cc driver?

[Golferpaul]

4 hours ago, So_Cal said:

Long drives have nothing to do with dunking.  Golf is relatively boring to watch.  Modern golf tech is like having trampoline floors for basketball.  Rolling the ball back 15% for majors is the equivalent of removing trampoline floors in basketball.  

When did basketball players use trampolines?

[milesgiles]

28 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

They all hit 3w, 5w and even 7 w just fine. Its like you don't even pay attention to that.

 

so why do they need a 460cc driver? its like you pay no attention to that 

[Titleist99]

44 minutes ago, Mirsir69 said:

Adding pure distance is not the only way to make a course play tougher. I’ve played some ridiculously long course, Painted Valley in Utah at over 8,000 yards (it’s at elevation so it doesn’t play that long), two courses in South Africa sitting at 8,400 yards, and the shoals golf club in Alabama, which I also believe is right around 8,000 yards. I’ve also played a ridiculously short, 2,800 9 hole par 34 golf course in a rural canyon town and that played significantly tougher than the before mentioned. On tour they should reward guys who hit the fairway and play smart golf, punish errant shots into the rough with thick cuts that grab the club head and force guys to play clean. I think that too often the second cut on tour is too short. If you have guys driving the golf ball 340 and are hitting it straight down the fairway, or bending it left and right but getting it to go where they want it too that should be rewarded! Course conditions, flag placement, and other set up items should challenge the players more, not just the length of the course. 

Yes.....that's all a  reasonable person can ask. well said.

[milesgiles]

29 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

The kicker is that he fails to see that persimmon was usually short, like 3w length.  His hero's weren't miraculous with their ball striking like he thinks they were.  The fact that pros today can put a golf ball sized wear mark on a 45 inch driver "toaster", is incredibly impressive.

 

apparently not impressive enough for you to actually go and watch them though 

[MUNIGRIT]

4 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

so why do they need a 460cc driver? its like you pay no attention to that 

I didn't say they did. It is what the USGA limit is. Regardless of what size they use they aren't shrinking them to whatever fits your Traditional size and it won't effect the performance anyway. I've seen guys win majors and tournaments without drivers. You seem like one of these guys that thinks he is just a few strokes from the show.

[milesgiles]

32 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

I didn't say they did. It is what the USGA limit is. Regardless of what size they use they aren't shrinking them to whatever fits your Traditional size and it won't effect the performance anyway. I've seen guys win majors and tournaments without drivers. You seem like one of these guys that thinks he is just a few strokes from the show.

 

they might

 

it will

 

so what

 

i dont 

[clevited]

44 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

apparently not impressive enough for you to actually go and watch them though 

 

I also don't go to basketball games, baseball games, hockey games etc etc etc.  I just don't care to bub.  You trying to troll with that is more than enough to make me not go anywhere near a pro tourney, I don't want to be near anyone like you.

[milesgiles]

4 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I also don't go to basketball games, baseball games, hockey games etc etc etc.  I just don't care to bub.  You trying to troll with that is more than enough to make me not go anywhere near a pro tourney, I don't want to be near anyone like you.

 

trolling is making out that your opinion as a midcapper is worth more than multiple major champions, Ryder cuppers and former wolrld number ones.

 

I hand it to you, really. That is proper trolling.

[clevited]

36 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

trolling is making out that your opinion as a midcapper is worth more than multiple major champions, Ryder cuppers and former wolrld number ones.

 

I hand it to you, really. That is proper trolling.

 

Not necessarily worth more but at least the same.  We all play the same game and any stupid rule changes effect me as well.  My opinion is at least as valid as theirs, and in some cases it could be considered worth more as I have actually attempted to quantify the problem as well as attempted to evaluate proposed solutions to said problem.  Your solution is crap, so is Faldos (which are the same vague garbage). Your idea requires actual thought before it can even be viable.  It needs more and the fact that you are going to great lengths to deny that tells me everything I need to know about your honesty and the value of your opinion.

[OrangeGravy]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

 

Not necessarily worth more but at least the same.  We all play the same game and any stupid rule changes effect me as well.  My opinion is at least as valid as theirs, and in some cases it could be considered worth more as I have actually attempted to quantify the problem as well as attempted to evaluate proposed solutions to said problem.  Your solution is crap, so is Faldos (which are the same vague garbage). Your idea requires actual thought before it can even be viable.  It needs more and the fact that you are going to great lengths to deny that tells me everything I need to know about your honesty and the value of your opinion.

We all don't play the same game and any changes will only affect you if you choose to let them

[farmer]

7 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Club head speed is more or less the same (I've probably gained some back recently due to sorting out my hip turn), ball speed has ticked up and that's with "old" tech (2016). And irons are half a club to a club longer despite playing the same type of blade I've always played. Which is why I favor doing something to the ball. 

You have improved your swing, and you got longer, correct?  Not totally a function of the ball.

[Pastit]

16 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

if the driver head wasnt three times the volume as then, we'd have a basis for comparison

Don’t worry I’ll a support you. It’s become absurd now IMO. I caddied last night and saw a c500 yd par 5 reduced to a driver and 5 yd chip by a category 1 amateur. There was a 20 mph wind behind but even so. Where the heck is the game going ? Similar driver spec as Rory and the rest. 
 

ps Sorry, seriously downhill as well. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Pastit

[gvogel]

16 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

I didn't say they did. It is what the USGA limit is. Regardless of what size they use they aren't shrinking them to whatever fits your Traditional size and it won't effect the performance anyway. I've seen guys win majors and tournaments without drivers. You seem like one of these guys that thinks he is just a few strokes from the show.

It would affect the performance, on the margin.  Certainly not every shot; but a few shots - just enough to give pause.

 

And, you can certainly tee it high and let it fly with small driver heads... but once in a while you are going to hit the sky ball.  Ask Jay Haas about his drive, final day, Ryder Cup at Oak Hill.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

12 hours ago, farmer said:

You have improved your swing, and you got longer, correct?  Not totally a function of the ball.

 

Maybe not, I also don't play a distance setup by any means. I can gain another club going to the left dash, or possibly with an iron change. The main thing I notice now is the functionality of even heel hits. They will still get out there and they usually go fairly straight. 

 

1 minute ago, milesgiles said:

 

they are all taught to swing as hard as possible now, from an early age. Average length of a course around me, near London, is 6500 with absolutely no room to expand. Thats far too short for the way the game is played now.

Shrink that head and sweetspot to a traditional size, we'll see how hard they swing then.

 

It's not going to happen, I can't see them rolling it back below 400CC if they even end up doing anything as far as head size, and that wouldn't do much if anything. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, Pastit said:

Don’t worry I’ll a support you. It’s become absurd now IMO. I caddied last night and saw a c500 yd par 5 reduced to a driver and 5 yd chip by a category 1 amateur. There was a 20 mph wind behind but even so. Where the heck is the game going ? Similar driver spec as Rory and the rest. 
 

ps Sorry, seriously downhill as well. 

I'd rather watch that.....than a three shot hole on all par 5s. Zach Johnson would win just about every Pro tournament.

Nobody beats Zach when it comes to wedging it on Par 5s.......

[Titleist99]

Todays Pros are hitting irons into greens at 250 yards out.....every one can just about hit his three wood off the deck 260-275 yards with the optimum swing speed, thanks to Trackman and launch monitors, etc...

 

Everyone except Brendon Todd .....he hits his driver 275yards...LOL! (But he still manage to compete tho...)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited May 11, 2022 by Titleist99

[TLUBulldogGolf]

23 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

I'd rather watch that.....than a three shot hole on all par 5s. Zach Johnson would win just about every Pro tournament.

Nobody beats Zach when it comes to wedging it on Par 5s.......

 

I don't think anyone wants to see all par 5s be three shot holes. Just rather not have to stretch par 4s over 500 to make them even hit a mid iron or par 5s well over 600 to make them 3 shot holes.

[Pastit]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

Todays Pros are hitting irons into greens at 250 yards out.....every one can just about hit his three wood off the deck 260-275 yards with the optimum swing speed, thanks to Trackman and launch monitors, etc...

 

Everyone except Brendon Todd .....he hits his driver 275yards...LOL! (But he still manage to compete tho...)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

e

He can join us any Sunday morning. We don’t exclude hackers where I play.

[So_Cal]

The more I think about it - if you want head size reduction to be an emphasis - you need to go way smaller than 190cc, which was considered massive when Big Bertha came out.  That why I lean towards making the ball less hot.  

Edited May 11, 2022 by So_Cal
Spelling

[TLUBulldogGolf]

1 hour ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Just more of you refusing to admit older players did what you claim they didn't do. Tiger was a top driver of the ball with a smaller clubhead and spinning ball. His driving when down with better equipment. I'm sure you have a built in excuse for that too.

 

What is went down? Tiger was never a super accurate driver of the ball and was prone to foul balls (hence the stinger), and was consistently top 10 in strokes gained with bigger drivers until he started fighting injuries and changing his swing. 

 

1 minute ago, So_Cal said:

The more I think about it - if you want head size reduction to be an emphasis - you need to go way smaller than 190cc, which was considered massive when Big Bertha came out.  That why I lean towards making the ball less hot.  

 

Yep, any change won't be meaningful enough. Either make the face less hot or focus on the ball. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by TLUBulldogGolf