Instruction No turn cast: the opposite of the Malaska move?

[Boikie]

Monte Scheinblum says you should start the downswing by casting the clubhead to 8 o'clock (target is 12).

 

Mike Malaska advocates starting the downswing by taking the handle down, and the clubhead out, as a feel (what should really happen according to him, is you actually shallow the club). So you should feel like you cast the club to 5 o'clock (target is 12) - that's not how he actually explains the move, but that's roughly it.

 

Are these two different feels to accomplish the same move? Is it possible to teach almost opposite drills in order to shallow the shaft without being stuck?

[Chunkitgood]

The hands act as a couple, positive (counterclockwise from the front) in the early downswing, then negative, then positive again.  These couples do not necessarily move the club relative to the hands but in some instances act to maintain their relation.

 

The positive couple at first resists the tendency of the club, well, to hit you in the neck as the downswing starts.  The negative couple resists release until after the “natural” point of release.  The final positive couple increases speed near impact.

 

Not a big fan of teaching real and feel.  Why not teach what is so student will then know what it feels like (to him)?

 

This all mostly happens naturally (if you let it) if your transition is good.

[nova6868]

I just see them both as different feels to get the club reconnected with your pivot and on plane. Malaska also talks about how there really is no "start of the downswing" and so there's really not a set point at which the downswing starts. These two points from him have been very helpful for me. 

[ericz]

10 minutes ago, nova6868 said:

Malaska also talks about how there really is no "start of the downswing" and so there's really not a set point at which the downswing starts. These two points from him have been very helpful for me. 

Can you elaborate on this part of your post, or post a video where he describes this in detail?

[Tpfol]

NTC, the way I see it, is more about breaking away from the club head lag fallacy and when Monte demonstrates the NTC how camera angles can be deceiving in showing "lag". Ultimately its a drill to promote a feel

[nova6868]

1 hour ago, ericz said:

Can you elaborate on this part of your post, or post a video where he describes this in detail?

 

 

[Valtiel]

That thumbnail is exactly what swinging a club in my golf dreams feels like. 😅

[Hilts1969]

8 hours ago, Boikie said:

Monte Scheinblum says you should start the downswing by casting the clubhead to 8 o'clock (target is 12).

 

Mike Malaska advocates starting the downswing by taking the handle down, and the clubhead out, as a feel (what should really happen according to him, is you actually shallow the club). So you should feel like you cast the club to 5 o'clock (target is 12) - that's not how he actually explains the move, but that's roughly it.

 

Are these two different feels to accomplish the same move? Is it possible to teach almost opposite drills in order to shallow the shaft without being stuck?

 

There are a few ways you can get the club head to 8 o’clock some good some bad. Examples 

 

Bad drop right shoulder 

Bad pull arms behind(right elbow flying)

 

Good ones would be use your wrists Monte cast A 8 o’clock, make room with your body  ie zipper away, 2 ball drill, clement get out of the way, Malaska pushing away from the force of the club(he probably should have started with this).

 

I think where your club and wrists are at the top make a difference in how to approach it. AMG seem to favour a flat left wrist with the club slightly laid off so they are more straighten the right arm. 

 

If your lucky making room can naturally flex the left wrist a tad so if it’s pretty neutral to start with jobs a good un. Many will need to flex it independently. For me I see the Malaska move as a release pattern that you may need to feel from the top if your pivot is decent.

 

 

[glk]

Malaska's move (which he describes as a feel and not what he actually demonstrates) is a singular item within a swing - it lacks context and if you understand Mike's backstory then if you are under plane and have a decent backswing otherwise it might work for that person - if you pull it steep already then this is just a death move.

 

Monte's NTC is a lot more than just a cast A - he describes, in general, an overall motion of which cast A is one part.   If you don't execute the NTC motion prior to cast A well then even cast A can be problematic but at least he is giving you an overall swing motion and not just one piece out of context.

[games]

Monte calls NTC a framework for a swing.  It’s not about feel.  It’s actually performing the key linked elements in a golf swing.  
 

Broom Force is more about feels, especially around Cast B.  The Malaska “wheel” feel would fit in with Monte’s countertop drill from Broom Force.

[parmark]

Always interesting to hear/see others views to how I see things - that's why there are 31 Flavors!

 

I think the answer to your real question is YES = same way to get to what you want your final destination to be but just taking different roads to arrive.

 

I see Malaska as three corners and a flat spot, I wouldn't look at it as one single downswing move. For me it's almost one continuous move that starts with the backswing.  He does offer some great explanations and insights on what he teaches.

 

Monte's NTC has been a game changer for me. I'm just not so sure he literally says start the BS doing that, again it is a drill in theory.

 

It solves about 19 different swing issues for me. (I know all you funny guys are saying that only leaves about 33 more things to fix before I get it right!)  Again I don't look at the 8 oclock cast as starting the backswing, there's a pressure shift  and a few other things working also involved with the whole program.  And while it is a drill in concept, I think some find it a swing by itself.  (that make any sense?)

 

Each has their own merits and have proven to work for different folks. But I do think you have it right in seeing how closely related both are.

Edited March 3, 2022 by parmark

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, parmark said:

Always interesting to hear/see others views to how I see things - that's why there are 31 Flavors!

 

I think the answer to your real question is YES = same way to get to what you want your final destination to be but just taking different roads to arrive.

 

I see Malaska as three corners and a flat spot, I wouldn't look at it as one single downswing move. For me it's almost one continuous move that starts with the backswing.  He does offer some great explanations and insights on what he teaches.

 

Monte's NTC has been a game changer for me. It solves about 19 different swing issues for me. (I know all you funny guys are saying that only leaves about 33 more things to fix before I get it right!)  Again I don't look at the 8 oclock cast as starting the backswing, there's a pressure shift  and a few other things working also involved with the whole purpose.  And while it is a drill in concept, I think some find it a swing by itself.  (that make any sense?)

 

Each has their own merits and have proven to work for different folks. But I do think you have it right in seeing how closely related both are.

What's funny is you usually already have things well in hand, but still think there are 33!!!

[parmark]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

What's funny is you usually already have things well in hand, but still think there are 33!!!

Funny, sad, humiliating, embarrassing, I could go on and on. 

 

It's my own damn fault, every week I"d be searching YT for the magic dust. Malaska, Maude, Brendan, the whole gang of them. And lo and behold, it's right under my nose the whole time with Montgomery S.  Just don't tell him, he's hard enough on me as it is.

Seriously I handed my YT playing privileges to my wife and am doing a deep dive into all of Monte's library.  Every night I am finding new nuggets.  My wife wakes up wondering why I am in the heated garage banging balls in the net at midnight!  (Neighbors weren't happy either, with sound off the driver they thought we were shooting each other!) She still thinks it was deliberate when I forgot to bring the cars back in and of course 7" of snow fell by morning!

 

Sorry to digress, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Hawkeye77]

2 minutes ago, parmark said:

Funny, sad, humiliating, embarrassing, I could go on and on. 

 

It's my own damn fault, every week I"d be searching YT for the magic dust. Malaska, Maude, Brendan, the whole gang of them. And lo and behold, it's right under my nose the whole time with Montgomery S.  Just don't tell him, he's hard enough on me as it is.

Seriously I handed my YT playing privileges to my wife and am doing a deep dive into all of Monte's library.  Every night I am finding new nuggets.  My wife wakes up wondering why I am in the heated garage banging balls in the net at midnight!  (Neighbors weren't happy either, with sound off the driver they thought we were shooting each other!) She still thinks it was deliberate when I forgot to bring the cars back in and of course 7" of snow fell by morning!

 

Sorry to digress, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

What's the point of having a heated garage when all that snow is going to melt in there and mess things up!

[Shanker84]

They're addressing two different players/bad tendencies. 

 

Monte's is a conscious motion for what should be done for those that have a tendency to get too steep. Malaska's is a conscious motion for those that are under plane and get stuck. 

[milesgiles]

can we just call it 6.30 and be done?

[MonteScheinblum]

The Malaska move is Cast B

[Shanker84]

11 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The Malaska move is Cast B

@MonteScheinblum can you elaborate on that? Seems like the Malaska move is an intentional steepening of the shaft. Not being snarky, don't get it. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Shanker84

[Hilts1969]

12 minutes ago, Shanker84 said:

@MonteScheinblum can you elaborate on that? Seems like the Malaska move is an intentional steepening of the shaft. Not being snarky, don't get it. 

 

At some point the club has to work out and the hands in. If you do cast B that in effect is what happens.  Shallow to steep. 

[Shanker84]

10 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

At some point the club has to work out and the hands in. If you do cast B that in effect is what happens.  Shallow to steep. 

But isn't the steepening a result of the hands going higher as they go up and around and the lead shoulder raises through impact? Again, not snarky but just not getting it. Malaska's feel/move is very intentional and seems opposite of NTC. Obviously the man himself spoke so, it is what it is but still not getting it. 

[Hilts1969]

10 hours ago, Shanker84 said:

But isn't the steepening a result of the hands going higher as they go up and around and the lead shoulder raises through impact? Again, not snarky but just not getting it. Malaska's feel/move is very intentional and seems opposite of NTC. Obviously the man himself spoke so, it is what it is but still not getting it. 

 

It's the opposite in terms of pitching the shaft if you do it from the top. Even Monte says its cast B. Just do a cast A stop than slowly do cast B and you should feel it.

 

If you are not convinced just don't do it then. You have to see the other Malaska videos to fully understand. His move doesn't show up in any swing as it's a feel. 

 

I don't do it myself but I understand the concept.

[CasualLie]

The two concepts are compatible.  Funny, seems like most people look at NTC and all they latch onto are Cast A/B moves. I look at it much more about getting the right depth, the bump, then let "casting" pretty much take care of itself.  Honestly, I felt like I had no choice but to let it take care of itself because I struggled when overly focused on Cast B.  So I just worked on Cast A and let momentum do the rest.  I was leaving Cast B to chance.  And really, that's on me because I didn't want to do the Cast B drills over and over.

 

In terms of feeling a Cast B, Malaska's videos have been very helpful, but it wasn't the one with Cogorno.  When I first saw Malaska discussing tipping out the shaft, I was in the middle of NTC work and I thought "oh no" that tipping stuff is scrambling my brain.  I didn't get it.  Then much later on, like maybe a year, I see Malaska with a rod in his glove to show wrist movement, then a different explanation of his tipping move, and all of the sudden light bulb moment..."oh, so that's Cast B".  

 

It has made a huge difference in my consistency.  When I'm asked by some beginner or hacker for golf advice, I tell them if you want to start from scratch and learn the basics, watch Malaska M Series - just to get going.  And after you played for awhile and want to develop deeper understanding of cause/effect/remedy, to really know your swing, watch/ work with Monte.

[Boikie]

10 hours ago, CasualLie said:

hen much later on, like maybe a year, I see Malaska with a rod in his glove to show wrist movement, then a different explanation of his tipping move, and all of the sudden light bulb moment..."oh, so that's Cast B".  

 

Hi CasualLie, could you please post the link to the video? Thanks.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Boikie
Make it more polite

[nova6868]

OK, is it just me...? What does "Cast A and Cast B" mean? 

[Trippels]

So the malaska move is basically cast B, so I think the discrepancy is really just that Malaska thinks the preceding shallowing motion happens on its own, while Monte teaches active shallowing with Cast A.

 

Personally the Malaska stuff doesn't work for me, because I basically do the Malaska move literally rather than just feeling it. Mike repeating how the club head increases in weight in transition over and over won't stop me pitching the shaft vertical. The only thing that's helped my swing is working on getting the club shallowing behind by doing Cast A, pronating lead arm, flexing wrists, etc.

Then from a shallow position the club gets worked out to the ball naturally as I turn, like the Cast B motion.

 

 

[CasualLie]

16 hours ago, Boikie said:

 

Hi CasualLie, could you please post the link to the video? Thanks.

 

The actual one I'm referring to is behind his paywall.  But this one is very similar at the 4:35 mark when he uses a tennis racket.  As others have pointed out, this is a feel, try to steepen the shaft this way from the top is potentially trouble.  In other videos Malaska explains how your arms have to feel loose at shoulder sockets.  So for me, at the top I'm trying to feel first right arm falling then the hands steering the wheel left.  But again, this has to happen in continuous motion and while you are rotating / pivot.  I work on the feel when blending it all at half speed.  

 

 

 

[CasualLie]

11 hours ago, nova6868 said:

OK, is it just me...? What does "Cast A and Cast B" mean? 

 

Purposely over simplifying, but you need to see Monte's NTC series to get full detail.

 

Simply, from the top, you are going to cast/throw the club twice / part A and B...all in a few milliseconds!

 

Cast A is from the top where you throw the club towards 8:00 (imagine at address your target line runs from 6:00 to 12:00) while lead wrist goes into flexion (some call this the motorcycle move).

 

Cast B is to throw the club towards 12:00 which is unloading of wrists through impact.

 

 

[games]

Deleted

Edited March 5, 2022 by games

[MK7Golf21]

What Malaska teaches with the shaft tipping over is the same exact move that Hardy taught in the one plane swing. Hardy had a bunch of success with the one plane swing moves on tour with guys who struggling with pitch elbow moves and brought it to the public as the "one plane swing". I'm not so sure it works as well it am's, they already do that move too much and have a steep shaft on the downswing.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Redjeep83

[Shanker84]

13 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

What Malaska teaches with the shaft tipping over is the same exact move that Hardy taught in the one plane swing. Hardy had a bunch of success with the one plane swing moves on tour with guys who struggling with pitch elbow moves and brought it to the public as the "one plane swing". I'm not so sure it works as well it am's, they already do that move too much and have a steep shaft on the downswing.

I struggled with this for a while and came to realize that the Hardy move you mention, RIT starts with a pulling of the grip with the left hand and then a throwing of the club around and to the left with the right but it’s easy to be steep if you’re hands are too high (Hardy’s two plane) on the backswing.