Anyone thinks $120+/hr lessons are not worth it for you?

[ryan983]

There’s never a guarantee anyone will fix your swing.  The instructor can give you the right diagnosis and how to fix it but it’s up to the student to implement it and not get sidetracked after one off day of ballstriking.   

[MrHateCoffee]

On 7/3/2022 at 9:20 AM, kasting333 said:

If you take a $500 lesson that changes your swing and mindset forever than I would say it’s worth it, right?

 

I firmly believe that such a thing doesn't exist.  😆

 

It's nearly impossible to make a big change based on a single lesson.  IMO lessons serve as guided practice versus big changes.  You have to go to a lot of them, frequently to get the most out of it.

 

This is also why I dont' think group clinics work but I'll save that for another post.

Edited July 5, 2022 by MrHateCoffee

[ShortGolfer]

When I had my stroke I learned I benefited tremendously from the therapists, more so than most, from observing other patients in the rehab ward over a one month period.

But, the way healthcare is allocated in the USA, I only got one week in the hospital, another couple weeks in the rehab ward, and then another month or two of outpatient therapy.

Then I was on my own.  I've heard it is even worse in the UK, as there aren't enough therapists to go around.

Fortunately I love to solve puzzles, so I've made steady gains over the years on my own.

I've found that if I have issues, I can  usually fix them by the ninth hole.

So far Driver has been the hardest to sort out.  Why?  I'd get a really good stroke and the ball would disappear.  I'd never see again.  Not enough feedback.

But, after getting lots of feedback during a fitting, I figured out how to get my driver tuned up!  In my back yard!

[ezpz]

As alluded to by others. The main issue is not paying 120$ for guaranteed imrpovement. It is that you are essentialy gambling 120$ and the result is determined by how well the teacher communicates her/his vision with you, how well this suits you and your ability/persistance to train it. This is not guaranteed to happen on the 1st pro you find, nor on the 5th. So it can get quite expensive, I'm lucky to live in a place where lessons are much cheaper but am amazed by how social media in particular has driven lesson fees. The recipe seems to be for a coach who is succesfuly coaching high level players (mostly collegiate) to market on instagram/yt to lesser players and charge extortionate fees for online services. 

[MrHateCoffee]

On 7/3/2022 at 1:57 PM, acegolfer said:

I agree that's the real issue. I'm willing to pay $120+, if he will fix my swing with 100% certainty. But I'm not willing to pay several $120's to search for the right pro for me. 

 

The problem is that there will never be a guarantee.  Because teaching someone how to swing a golf club is very difficult.  Especially if they're an adult and have already ingrained bad habits, weird swing mechanics, or poor athleticism. And that's before you throw in all the various body types.  I take lessons with Colin McCarthy down here in Atlanta.  I like him because he teaches golf swing based on body type.  (For example, I have a longer forearm than tricep.  Some people are opposite.  It affects your swing path and mechanics)

 

Even though I like Colin, there are some things I know he can't teach me.  I just have to figure it out myself. 

 

(BTW, my perspective is that of someone who has seen at least 10 different instructors online and in-person)

[glk]

59 minutes ago, MrHateCoffee said:

 

I firmly believe that such a thing doesn't exist.  😆

 

It's nearly impossible to make a big change based on a single lesson.  IMO lessons serve as guided practice versus big changes.  You have to go to a lot of them, frequently to get the most out of it.

 

This is also why I dont' think group clinics work but I'll save that for another post.

I changed my pattern from shallow to steep to steep then shallow.  One lesson. Three months working on it to be consistent.  Gained 30 yards off the tee.    I don’t think I am an exception.

[ShortGolfer]

My fitter said I had a good swing and said for the purpose of fitting me for clubs, there was no reason for me to swing hard.

In fact, I realized that some of my best swings were while I was chatting with him.  So much for proper setup and focusing on the task at hand!

 

Could it just be that I just need to be confident that my swing is good enough as is and just swing the club?

Edited July 5, 2022 by ShortGolfer

[Krt22]

I think getting caught up in the "value" of a lesson is just another reason why many golfers don't improve. One big issue is how expectations clearly rise along with the cost of a lesson, yet very rarely will you see the student's effort also increase. Most take the "if I am paying this much, it better fix me immediately" mentality instead of "If I am paying this much, I better put in the time to practice to make it worth it". These folks are basically setting themselves up for failure from the start, then will instantly blame the instructor when they don't see results

 

The other thing is people don't put enough value on their time/enjoyment. If are in a rut with your game, how much time/money are you wasting playing golf you aren't happy with? How much do you waste beating balls? 

 

And I think the last thing many golfers don't realize, is that even if a lesson doesn't fix you immediately, there are always other take-aways. Learning your flaws, learning what doesn't work for you, etc are all positive outcomes.

[BombinJim]

The $120/hour is not costly in the grand scheme of things. If you are committed to improving your swing it is the dedication, time, mental fortitude, and cost of practice to implement the swing change. 10,000 hours of practice or more. How much you value your time and commitment matters more than a series of lessons at $120/hour.

[Barfolomew]

On 7/3/2022 at 10:57 AM, acegolfer said:

I agree that's the real issue. I'm willing to pay $120+, if he will fix my swing with 100% certainty. But I'm not willing to pay several $120's to search for the right pro for me. 

 

100% Certainty!  That word should not even come up.  Absolutes don't exist in golf.  If I were a coach I wouldn't want a student like you.... Except only in the challenge to change you're mental approach, and I like challenges. 

 

Cheap and looking for 100% certainty is way too tight azzzzed to play golf in a relaxed manner... Tiger can play an amazing game one day then absolute garbage the next day like all pros and amateurs.... that has 100% happened and will continue to happen.... that's the only 100% Certainty you'll get.  🐒

 

To find a great coach on attempt one would be a holy grail find and not expected.  But you could approach a lesson by taking something away that is useful, but you're going to have to meet that coach half way and communicate well enough so they know what you understand.

 

Note: if you do have money as you say you have a lot of free time then you need to do it for many reasons... if you're low on funds then and being responsible then ya find a cheaper way to get lessons or self teach through media 🐄

[bvmagic]

Cost aside, I actually think an hour can be too long for a lesson.  There is only so much I will remember anyways, I'd rather have a short 20-30 min session to find one thing to focus on.  

[northgolf]

I pay a plumber twice that an hour.  I wouldn't want a half priced plumber teaching me how to swing. $120 is chump change for a good lesson.

 

I find it takes a month of practicing 3x a week to begin to ingrain what I learn in a good lesson. So maybe 3 full lessons over the course of a season.  I will pay for a quick checkup after 2 weeks if I think I am messing up the practice. 

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

Depends on the instructor, your willingness to listen and practice.  For some more than worth the $, including me, for others perhaps not.

[northgolf]

38 minutes ago, Is Golf Fun or Work said:

Depends on the instructor, your willingness to listen and practice.  For some more than worth the $, including me, for others perhaps not.

True. If you have the attention span of a walnut, lessons will do naught for you.

[JetPilot]

NONE of the things that have me playing the best golf of my life have been identified or corrected by in person instructors.  Several years ago I took a lesson from one of the most sought after instructors in the area and he wasn't cheap.  He was pretty full of himself, seemed uninterested in teaching and I really walked away with nothing.  That was the last straw for me regarding in person lessons.  

[acegolfer]

1 hour ago, JetPilot said:

NONE of the things that have me playing the best golf of my life have been identified or corrected by in person instructors.  Several years ago I took a lesson from one of the most sought after instructors in the area and he wasn't cheap.  He was pretty full of himself, seemed uninterested in teaching and I really walked away with nothing.  That was the last straw for me regarding in person lessons.  

TY. I had one lesson this season and it was a total waste of money. I think I have to try 5 or 6 different instructors and then get another 5 or 6 lessons from the right instructor. That's easily $1500, which I'm not willing to spend. 

[northgolf]

I have gone to a few of Monte's clinics.  I have always left knowing more than when I arrived and I have been a better golfer 3 and 6 months afterwords.  However, having seen his videos and having read his posts, I knew that would be the case. 

 

There are a few other instructors on this site I would trust with swing analysis, but I wouldn't pay a local joe pro for lessons and there are renowned instructors I would run screaming away from.

 

The golf swing is geometrically, physically (physics, body architecture,  and movement), as well as environmentally complex. Once you get beyond the basics of stance and grip, there are scant few who really can see a person's swing and communicate a better way for that person to swing and the most efficient way for that person to effect those changes. Once you add in that 99% of people's proprioception is way whacked out from reality, teaching golf is really extremely hard.

 

I defend my stance that $120/hrs is chump change for good golf instruction.  Once you get past basics, it takes talent and knowledge across several disciplines and good communication skills to boot. A person with those skills deserves well north of $120/hrs.

[ChipDriver]

On 7/3/2022 at 7:38 AM, acegolfer said:

Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT saying lessons are useless. In fact, I understand the benefit of lessons. There are things that I can't see in my swing and the pro will help me reach my potential fastest. But I am just a casual golfer with a lot of free time. I like to do my own research and work on my swing. I have been enjoying the gradual improvement in my swing for years. 

 

I'm very frugal (some may say cheapskate). Most of my clubs are second handed and I always play at good value courses (< $40). If lesson from PGA professional was cheaper like $40 for 30 min, I'd jump on it. But at the current rate, I don't think it's worth the investment for me. I rather play 3 rounds or go to the range 12 times, even if I don't get the same results. Does anyone share the same sentiment? Or am I completely wrong?                                  

 

 

 

Just a suggestion - a little odd but pretty easy:  just go ask a pro that you're interested in - if you could observe a lesson for a few minutes?  Even explain your thought process - you want to improve but it's an expense that is meaningful.  Not every pro will allow it - but if you're diligent I'd bet you will find one that will allow it.  Watch with an open mind, and don't do something selfish like talk/ask questions/interrupt (it's not YOUR lesson) and certainly don't record anything.    It will be like a live version of Youtube.  And if you like what he's teaching - then buy a couple of lessons - and you'll both be happy that you're there.

 

 

[acegolfer]

4 hours ago, ChipDriver said:

 

 

 

Just a suggestion - a little odd but pretty easy:  just go ask a pro that you're interested in - if you could observe a lesson for a few minutes?  Even explain your thought process - you want to improve but it's an expense that is meaningful.  Not every pro will allow it - but if you're diligent I'd bet you will find one that will allow it.  Watch with an open mind, and don't do something selfish like talk/ask questions/interrupt (it's not YOUR lesson) and certainly don't record anything.    It will be like a live version of Youtube.  And if you like what he's teaching - then buy a couple of lessons - and you'll both be happy that you're there.

 

 

Great suggestion. In fact, when I'm at the range and see pros giving lessons, I observe what they do, how they teach. Unfortunately, I haven't found any pro that is worth the investment yet. 

[acegolfer]

5 hours ago, northgolf said:

I defend my stance that $120/hrs is chump change for good golf instruction.  Once you get past basics, it takes talent and knowledge across several disciplines and good communication skills to boot. A person with those skills deserves well north of $120/hrs.

 

I agree. The problem is it's hard to find the right instructor for me. I may have to waste several $120+ to find a good fit for me. Once I find one, I'm willing to pay $120+/hr. 

[RichieHunt]

Depends on the instructor.  I just paid for a $250 lesson and was happy to do so.  But the lesson came with me getting on GEARS, Hackmotion and on FlightScope.  

 

IIRC, GEARS goes for something like $30K.  FlightScope probably goes for around $15K and Hackmotion goes for $1K.  And that doesn't include the studio and the other pieces of technology that we didn't use, but could have or may use in the future.

 

I was extremely satisfied with the lesson.  I think we discovered things that I can work on that I've never heard from anybody else and they appear to make sense as to why they are causing certain issues in my swing.  This sure beats not quite knowing what is going on and not correctly identifying the biggest issues, but also not working on something that doesn't need to be fixed.

 

This creates more enjoyment for me and sure beats not improving or getting worse and then spending more money on equipment to see if that makes a different (it normally does not or makes a minor difference).

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

[dsmil]

I understand that the teaching pros with the best equipment have to charge a lot for their services.  But I'm with you in that I'm a frugal person and I don't like to get a lesson more than once every 1-2 years.  My teacher is a great guy, I enjoy our conversations, and I feel pampered in a way when I can get a lesson and see my numbers on Trackman.  Whether it actually makes me better is a tossup because I'm not going to see him consistently, but it's fun to go once in awhile.  

[Simpsonia]

9 hours ago, northgolf said:

I have gone to a few of Monte's clinics.  I have always left knowing more than when I arrived and I have been a better golfer 3 and 6 months afterwords.  However, having seen his videos and having read his posts, I knew that would be the case. 

 

There are a few other instructors on this site I would trust with swing analysis, but I wouldn't pay a local joe pro for lessons and there are renowned instructors I would run screaming away from.

 

The golf swing is geometrically, physically (physics, body architecture,  and movement), as well as environmentally complex. Once you get beyond the basics of stance and grip, there are scant few who really can see a person's swing and communicate a better way for that person to swing and the most efficient way for that person to effect those changes. Once you add in that 99% of people's proprioception is way whacked out from reality, teaching golf is really extremely hard.

 

I defend my stance that $120/hrs is chump change for good golf instruction.  Once you get past basics, it takes talent and knowledge across several disciplines and good communication skills to boot. A person with those skills deserves well north of $120/hrs.

 

I don't think people are disagreeing that $120/hr is not worth it for good golf instruction, but more decrying the fact that it's incredibly hard to find actually good golf instruction locally for everyone. Not everyone has a Monte or Dan C locally. I've been to quite a number of PGA teaching pros and quite a few of them are still advocating things that are universally derided by good instructors such as dropping the trail shoulder to shallow and swing to right field, drag that handle to maintain lag, etc. That's why I've given up completely on in-person instruction and just use trusted online resources now. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Simpsonia

[MK7Golf21]

2 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I don't think people are disagreeing that $120/hr is not worth it for good golf instruction, but more decrying the fact that it's incredibly hard to find actually good golf instruction locally for everyone. Not everyone has a Monte or Dan C locally. I've been to quite a number of PGA teaching pros and quite a few of them are still advocating things that are universally derided by good instructors such as dropping the trail shoulder to shallow and swing to right field, drag that handle to maintain lag, etc. That's why I've given up completely on in-person instruction and just use trusted online resources now. 

 

Maybe locally it can be difficult if you live in small cities etc. but using a reference guide like top instructors by state in golf digest you shouldn't have any trouble finding a competent instructor within a few hours drive. Most on that top instructor list by state will have tech like radar, pressure mats etc. as well.

 

 I think Monte and Dan are top instructors to go with but you can find someone within a few hours drive just as good if you research. I'm sure you know this but there is a bit of group think that happens with forums etc. I'm into cars and on car forums everyone would get the same exact aftermarket stuff and recommend it to others just because the person selling the parts was known on the forum. Some of the parts like the HID lights were a mess and would break within a year yet people would recommend them to others like nothing else was out there. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[Krt22]

I disagree that just about everyone will have someone "just as good" as Monte or Dan within a few hours drive. I think you have the cause and effect mixed up. Monte and Dan are not popular just because they are on the forums, they are popular on the forums because of how effective their instruction really is. 

 

Just because a teacher has the tech, doesn't mean they will use it effectively

Edited July 6, 2022 by Krt22

[MK7Golf21]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

I disagree that just about everyone will have someone "just as good" as Monte or Dan within a few hours drive. I think you have the cause and effect mixed up. Monte and Dan are not popular just because they are on the forums, they are popular on the forums because of how effective their instruction really is. 

 

Just because a teacher has the tech, doesn't mean they will use it effectively

 

depends on what you think just as good is defined by. There are very good instructors on that golf digest top instructor list and covers many states. There will be some in states that don't apply like North Dakota or something or maybe more than a few hours drive. 

 

I've been to many instructors so I have some reference here.

[Krt22]

"Just as good" is pretty clear to me, it implies they are really "just as good". That is no small task. Have you taken a lesson with both as a bench mark?

Edited July 6, 2022 by Krt22

[MK7Golf21]

Just now, Krt22 said:

"Just as good" is pretty clear to me, it implies they are really "just as good". That is no small task.

 

To think you have to fly to Cali or Florida is the only option for good instruction is deceptive. Maybe it is to some people because they click with them on a personal or teaching level I can understand, I have had that with certain instructors over others.

 

For example, I went to an instructor within a few hour drive who has worked with tour pro's and is a fantastic teacher, to say he isn't as good as Monte or Dan is funny. I could look at that golf digest top instructor list and recommend many "just as good" who could be closer to someone.

[Krt22]

13 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

To think you have to fly to Cali or Florida is the only option for good instruction is deceptive. Maybe it is to some people because they click with them on a personal or teaching level I can understand, I have had that with certain instructors over others.

 

For example, I went to an instructor within a few hour drive who has worked with tour pro's and is a fantastic teacher, to say he isn't as good as Monte or Dan is funny. I could look at that golf digest top instructor list and recommend many "just as good" who could be closer to someone.

Now you are moving the goal posts (as you always do). I never said you need to fly to them, I just said not everyone has access to someone just as good within a few hours drive. Do some people? Sure. Does everyone? No

 

And I do find it funny that you are certain other instructors are just as good, when you have not taken a lesson with either Monte or Dan. 

[MysteryV]

If you can't find an instructor worth $X /hr. anywhere, the problem is likely you.

There are A LOT of bad instructors, but there are far more bad students who have forgotten just how bad they were.

How many folks take notes during their lessons and record themselves several practicing once thereafter?  How about several times a week?

How many folks actually take time to think about and actually understand HOW they learn?  How they communicate? 

 

Someone came up to me on the range yesterday and told me he'd been playing for ~1 yr., and asked for advice.  While my advice was to take lessons early to avoid ingraining bad habits, I had a hard time recommending instructors for him as I've not been impressed with many instructors within an hour drive.

 

I say that to say I'm not putting the blame 100% on the students at all, but for folks to throw out blanket "Lessons aren't worth $X - prove me wrong" makes for an entertaining thread - but is generally just silly.