Most painless way to compile strokes gained without using sensors?

[phillyspecial]

I really would like to calculate and utilize SG data, but I find the methods I have tried are too painful to still enjoy my rd.  Arrcos/SS/Garmin sensors are not a good look and require too many "what are those things Mr golf nerd" questions on the course.  The apps like 18birdies felt incredibly painful to enter correctly and required me being on my phone on every shot to make sure I input club and pushed other buttons correctly.  I deleted the app and cancelled the sub after 5 holes.  

 

I wear a Garmin S62, and if I could simply push a button for club choice there would be easy but I dont see how to do that.  

 

Is there really no other easy way?  

[bladehunter]

Do you remember every shot like a photograph in the mind with yardage etc ?  If you do then using decade is painless on course.  I don’t know if that’s normal or not. But that’s what I do. 
 

i just replay the round as I enter the data. 
 

should add. Decade will compute the drive if you put in accurate tees and approach distance.  And for missing greens it will calculate for you say if you’re back bunker and front pin. Just plot it on the map and Distances fill in. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by bladehunter

[EastTNGolfer]

2 minutes ago, phillyspecial said:

I really would like to calculate and utilize SG data, but I find the methods I have tried are too painful to still enjoy my rd.  Arrcos/SS/Garmin sensors are not a good look and require too many "what are those things Mr golf nerd" questions on the course.  The apps like 18birdies felt incredibly painful to enter correctly and required me being on my phone on every shot to make sure I input club and pushed other buttons correctly.  I deleted the app and cancelled the sub after 5 holes.  

 

I wear a Garmin S62, and if I could simply push a button for club choice there would be easy but I dont see how to do that.  

 

Is there really no other easy way?  

Writing down your distance left to the pin which will give you a rough drive and approach distance as well as putt distances and put them in an app like Golf Metrics.

[vandyfan]

I am in a similar boat. I have been using the TaylorMade Myround app (or whatever it has been re-branded to) and I find on some days it is very laborious to enter data, especially the putting. Like @bladehunter mentioned, most rounds I can remember almost every shot and map it out after the round (I may jot down distances and feet out for putts on my scorecard). Ultimately, strokes gained data is less and less helpful to me the more I enter it as I feel like I am becoming aware of how to evaluate my performance in each area based on my experience in the app, if that makes sense. 

[bluedot]

Forgive me for asking this, but do people really ask you about the Arrcos sensors and/or make fun of them?  
 

I used Arrcos for several years over hundreds of rounds; I can’t really remember anybody saying anything.  If they did, it was curiosity, rather than sarcasm.  Good players understand anyway, and the chops aren’t worth worrying about.

 

I say all this by way of saying that I can’t really imagine a better way of compiling comprehensive SG data than Arrcos.  It’s pretty powerful software and pretty minimal hardware.

[elsie451]

1 hour ago, phillyspecial said:

I wear a Garmin S62, and if I could simply push a button for club choice there would be easy but I dont see how to do that.  

Isn't there a club prompt option on the s62. I wear the more general purpose garmin venu and get a club prompt when i swing, and if it doesn't detect a swing i can enter it manually.

 

Here is the s62 user manual page https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/GUID-7681996C-530F-4C69-80C4-3CD20D82746C/EN-US/GUID-CBFA7E15-FBF2-4C92-A5A7-C9026972D21B.html

Edited July 8, 2022 by elsie451
User manual

[BigUrsus]

Garmin Fenix user here. I get a club prompt after each swing. Although arccos/shotscope are miles ahead of Garmin in regards to usef stats. 

[TheBiles]

In the last two years, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve had someone ask me about my Arccos sensors. That’s over 200 rounds played.  Why would you go through so much manual pain to calculate something that is automatically done with simple and effective sensors? Surely your time has to be worth something. Even if every playing partner you had mentioned them, how much effort is it to say “they automatically track my shots, it’s really cool?”

[Gamble Gamble]

2 hours ago, phillyspecial said:

Arrcos/SS/Garmin sensors are not a good look and require too many "what are those things Mr golf nerd" questions on the course. 

 

The new Arccos Golf Pride grips with the sensor built in make it look exactly like a regular golf grip.  I recommend that unless the real issue is that you do not want to spend money.  If that is the case, your time is worth money, and to compile data at the same level will take 10+ hours of time, which if you make $25 an hour or more is a no brainer trade off since the set costs $250.

 

Also, why do you care about the people you play with asking questions about it?  Their opinions do not make you a better golfer.

[ChipStrokes]

no one has ever even noticed the shot scope sensors screwed into the butt end of my grips. 

[otto6457]

Maybe a dumb question.  How does Arrcos/Shot Scope handle the putting/chipping Obviously the sensors have no idea where the hole is.  Do you just manually enter your putt/chip lengths?

 

I should probably spend some time on the website to see how it works.  I need a new laser and the combo Shot Scope laser/GPS looks interesting.

[TheBiles]

Just now, otto6457 said:

Maybe a dumb question.  How does Arrcos/Shot Scope handle the putting/chipping Obviously the sensors have no idea where the hole is.  Do you just manually enter your putt/chip lengths?

 

I should probably spend some time on the website to see how it works.  I need a new laser and the combo Shot Scope laser/GPS looks interesting.

With Arccos you manually set the hole location, and you can enter the distance of all intermediate putts. I took my putter sensor off, so I’m not sure how accurate the auto detection is.  I just verify the correct number/distance of the putts as I walk to the next hole. 

[Gamble Gamble]

On 7/8/2022 at 2:38 PM, otto6457 said:

Maybe a dumb question.  How does Arrcos/Shot Scope handle the putting/chipping Obviously the sensors have no idea where the hole is.  Do you just manually enter your putt/chip lengths?

 

I should probably spend some time on the website to see how it works.  I need a new laser and the combo Shot Scope laser/GPS looks interesting.

 

if you have the arccos caddie link you can set it by walking up to the hole and pressing the button on it.  If not, you can just set the pin on the phone app. 

 

 

[RCGA]

After doing strokes gained via Decade for the last 40 rounds, I'm going back to using an excel sheet with a mix of GIR, Tiger 5, and hole scoring average. 

 

Putting, in particular, is too hard to accurately gauge distance and remember lengths, pins, etc. Yeah there's ways around it but it's hard enough entering my score, GIR, FW and # of putts into an app after every hole. 

 

I also want to "own" my data and hate the idea of paying $200+ per year 

[Double Mocha Man]

9 hours ago, Gamble Gamble said:

 

if you have the arccos caddie link you can set it by walking up to the hole and pressing the button on it.  If not, you can just set the pin on the phone app. 

 

 

 

Sounds like a slow down of the game.

[TheBiles]

14 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Sounds like a slow down of the game.

 

Do you not walk up to the hole to retrieve your ball?  Or spend any amount of time transiting to the next hole and waiting for playing partners to hit their shots?  Setting a pin location adds exactly zero time to the round.

[chisag]

On 7/8/2022 at 8:49 AM, bladehunter said:

Do you remember every shot like a photograph in the mind with yardage etc ?  If you do then using decade is painless on course.  I don’t know if that’s normal or not. But that’s what I do. 

 

 

... If you can remember every shot (and many of us can) I have never really understood doing this for better players. When Arrcos first came out and I tried it, the info certainly didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. I know when I am driving poorly, hitting poor iron shots, not getting up and down or missing putts. So "finding out" I need to hit my irons closer or need to make more 6-8 foot putts or hit more fairways falls under the Duh! category as well as what difference can it make? I am already putting my best swings and attention into my shots and some days I am aiming at flags and getting close and shooting under par and others I am happy with the middle of the green or just on the green and grind out a 75. 

... I can see a high index player or even a pro that works on all aspects of their game giving a little more time to say chipping than driving if the numbers have identified a slightly weaker part of their game that needs more work. But again I think most low and probably mid index players know exactly what they are doing well or doing poorly. Admittedly I am a feel player find stats boring so perhaps a more technically oriented player would enjoy the analytics. 

[bladehunter]

22 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... If you can remember every shot (and many of us can) I have never really understood doing this for better players. When Arrcos first came out and I tried it, the info certainly didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. I know when I am driving poorly, hitting poor iron shots, not getting up and down or missing putts. So "finding out" I need to hit my irons closer or need to make more 6-8 foot putts or hit more fairways falls under the Duh! category as well as what difference can it make? I am already putting my best swings and attention into my shots and some days I am aiming at flags and getting close and shooting under par and others I am happy with the middle of the green or just on the green and grind out a 75. 

... I can see a high index player or even a pro that works on all aspects of their game giving a little more time to say chipping than driving if the numbers have identified a slightly weaker part of their game that needs more work. But again I think most low and probably mid index players know exactly what they are doing well or doing poorly. Admittedly I am a feel player find stats boring so perhaps a more technically oriented player would enjoy the analytics. 

I truly don’t like stats at all.  Lol.  
 

it started as a way to quantify my bad putting.  And it honestly became a habit.  I guess I find it interesting to see the decade comparison to pro and top college am players.  But I can’t say that I’ve changed a single thing in my game because of it.  I knew I was a streaky putter before , and it confirmed it.  I knew I was a strong  iron player with a well above average short game.  It told me that too.  And I knew that I didn’t hit driver as often as stokes gained Wants  me too. And I still don’t. And I’m still prone to that streaky putter.  Hot or cold.  I have a lot of good birdie looks that do not get made.  

Edited July 12, 2022 by bladehunter

[ChipStrokes]

On 7/8/2022 at 2:38 PM, otto6457 said:

Maybe a dumb question.  How does Arrcos/Shot Scope handle the putting/chipping Obviously the sensors have no idea where the hole is.  Do you just manually enter your putt/chip lengths?

 

I should probably spend some time on the website to see how it works.  I need a new laser and the combo Shot Scope laser/GPS looks interesting.

i use the “manual putting” setting on shotscope. 

 

it detects when you’re on the green and the screen on the watch switches from a yardage display to a simple putt counter screen. 

 

address your ball, hit your first putt, and hit the plus sign to add a stroke. 

 

address the ball again, hit the plus sign again. 

 

walk to the hole, collect your ball, and while standing at the hole, hit the little flag icon to mark the pin. 

 

simple, and takes no time at all. 

[Gamble Gamble]

On 7/11/2022 at 8:30 PM, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Sounds like a slow down of the game.

 

Seriously though, you can press that button:

1. while walking onto the green
2. before you putt when you or a caddie pulls out the stick
3. as you are walking off the green
4. when you are reading the putt

 

It takes 1.8 seconds max to register. 

 

I had the old arccos system and it missed a bunch of shots, the new ones that are built into my MCC+4 grips and the Arccos Link are a massive upgrade from the GEN 1.0 system.  There are less inputs on the course and the system is helpful in regards to planning out practice based on strokes gained/lost metrics.  

 

 

Edit:  This section below is now incorrect, Arccos now does sell the individual grips:

 

My only gripe with the system is that if you interchange other clubs (i.e. swap a 3i for a 5w) for different courses, you need to buy a new set of 13 grips to cover the extra clubs.  Arccos does not sell individual grips as of this time. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Gamble Gamble
incorrect info

[Double Mocha Man]

Ah Gamble, you're sounding very defensive.  I still cannot converse with you while you're on your phone.  Ben Hogan was never on his smart phone, not that I ever played with him.

[jbrunk]

I laser every shot, walk off every putt. After each hole, write down YTG (or FTG), lie, and club on the scorecard.  Doesn’t take any more time if you do it quickly during other players’ prep.  Enter shot data into my spreadsheet afterwards, done.

 

 

 

 

Don’t look too closely. Not a great round yesterday, sorry.  Baselines derived from Broadie ESC tables for PGA Tour.

 

This method keeps my head in the game for every shot, and I don’t have to add up score til the end.  As for utilization, I’m a little lost there.  I’ll look at club data, I score better at 3W recovery than 3Hy, that sort of thing.  Track effectiveness over time, so I know generally short game is my strongest area, driving is my weakest.

 

Hope this helps someone, cheers!

Edited July 12, 2022 by jbrunk

[Double Mocha Man]

32 minutes ago, TheBiles said:

 

Do you not walk up to the hole to retrieve your ball?  Or spend any amount of time transiting to the next hole and waiting for playing partners to hit their shots?  Setting a pin location adds exactly zero time to the round.

 

Being on your phone adds time to the round. And while you are doing so I can't even converse with you.  Phones belong in your bag for the duration of the round.

[blues72]

V1 game works pretty well, and you can always enter your club information at the end of the round.

[TheBiles]

13 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Being on your phone adds time to the round. And while you are doing so I can't even converse with you.  Phones belong in your bag for the duration of the round.

No, being on your phone when you are otherwise just standing around doesn’t add a second to the round. Also do you do a lot of conversing while your partner is going through their pre-s*** routine on the next tee? And is there a reason you can’t converse with someone who is taking 2 seconds to look at their phone and select a spot on the green? You know you’re not talking on the phone, right?

[PracticeSwinger]

9 hours ago, jbrunk said:

I laser every shot, walk off every putt. After each hole, write down YTG (or FTG), lie, and club on the scorecard.  Doesn’t take any more time if you do it quickly during other players’ prep.  Enter shot data into my spreadsheet afterwards, done.

 

Don’t look too closely. Not a great round yesterday, sorry.  Baselines derived from Broadie ESC tables for PGA Tour.

Very interesting - I basically do the same... few questions/observations;

• you get the exact yardage to the hole, using Broadie's tables; extrapolation between the numbers or else?
• how to you handle putting from the fringe, counting in the around the green category for sure, but in yards or in feet - and I find it works best if I use the average number of putts to hole out from that distance in feet (otherwise, treating it as ATG from the rough, my SG in that category is through the roof compared to the Tour)
• any other tables you've seen that would change the benchmark to scratch (or else)?... of course ShotScope, Arccos or any other aren't providing that golden info - that I'm aware
• I've used Lou Stagner utlimate charts in the past (that shows the exact SG value from distance/lie to where it ends up - say 160yds fairway to 34 feet green) but as you can imagine it's a hassle to build your database of shot possibilities... would love a simplified table with scratch benchmark

Doesn't take that much time on the course, it's part of it (rangefinder and pacing putts) - and input afterwards is a charm if your sheet is built correctly to gather all the SG info... then it's just a matter of slicing and dicing the results to see what's causing those extra strokes (especially the frequency of those shots during a round) as a fact and just not guesstimate ('well, pretty sure my short game let me down today') - and what to work on... but with the Tour as benchmark, you really get to see that these guys are good...

[jbrunk]

Thanks @MtlJayMan, glad to hear I'm not the only one who does this myself.  My playing partners are always saying I'm overthinking, but what else is new.  I see you're a 4 cap; I'm like a 12.  What analysis do you do with your shot data?  Anything that helps you with course management?

 

5 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

you get the exact yardage to the hole, using Broadie's tables; extrapolation between the numbers or else?

 

My extrapolation is linear between values given by Broadie for yards to gain from different lies.  Just did a little math to derive values to fill the gaps; looks something like this:

 

YTG

T

100	2.92
101	2.92
102	2.93
103	2.93
104	2.93
105	2.94
106	2.94
107	2.94
108	2.95
109	2.95
110	2.96
111	2.96
112	2.96
113	2.97
114	2.97
115	2.97
116	2.98
117	2.98
118	2.98
119	2.99
120	2.99

 

5 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

how to you handle putting from the fringe, counting in the around the green category for sure, but in yards or in feet

 

I count fringe putting in yards, mark as F or R as it lies.  And yes, if I extract PF and PR shots for my club data, it's an outlier for sure.  I get +0.14 average SG over SW/LW shots, +0.18 over Putting 3ft and above.

 

	#	SG	Avg	%
SW/LW	236	-25.25	-0.11	89%
PF/PR	27	0.75	0.03	103%
P 3+	404	-62.37	-0.15	85%

 

So far I have been grouping PF/PR with short game, but might start putting it with putting.  It can certainly inflate short game performance within a round, it evens out a little more over time.

 

5 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

any other tables you've seen that would change the benchmark to scratch (or else)?... of course ShotScope, Arccos or any other aren't providing that golden info - that I'm aware

 

I've looked for scratch benchmarks before, never found anything I could use.  I'm also just used to this after so many years, so I'd have to go back and adjust previous years' rounds if I switched.  I'll say though that I'm NOT a competitive golfer AT ALL!  This is all purely for recreation or maybe I'd pay for an app.

 

5 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

I've used Lou Stagner utlimate charts in the past (that shows the exact SG value from distance/lie to where it ends up - say 160yds fairway to 34 feet green) but as you can imagine it's a hassle to build your database of shot possibilities... would love a simplified table with scratch benchmark

 

Not sure I'd need a table for that, just calculate the difference, subtract 1 for your stroke, subtract for penalites.  Maybe I'm missing the point.  In your scenario, 160y F is 3.00 strokes, 34ft G is 2.01; assuming no penalties, that's -0.01 strokes gained.  Good shot.

[Gamble Gamble]

I was wrong about the individual grips above, they do sell them now on their website.  

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Gamble Gamble
correction

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, jbrunk said:

Thanks @MtlJayMan, glad to hear I'm not the only one who does this myself.  My playing partners are always saying I'm overthinking, but what else is new.  I see you're a 4 cap; I'm like a 12.  What analysis do you do with your shot data?  Anything that helps you with course management?

 

My extrapolation is linear between values given by Broadie for yards to gain from different lies.  Just did a little math to derive values to fill the gaps; looks something like this:

 

I count fringe putting in yards, mark as F or R as it lies.  And yes, if I extract PF and PR shots for my club data, it's an outlier for sure.  I get +0.14 average SG over SW/LW shots, +0.18 over Putting 3ft and above. So far I have been grouping PF/PR with short game, but might start putting it with putting.  It can certainly inflate short game performance within a round, it evens out a little more over time.

 

I've looked for scratch benchmarks before, never found anything I could use.  I'm also just used to this after so many years, so I'd have to go back and adjust previous years' rounds if I switched.  I'll say though that I'm NOT a competitive golfer AT ALL!  This is all purely for recreation or maybe I'd pay for an app.

 

Not sure I'd need a table for that, just calculate the difference, subtract 1 for your stroke, subtract for penalites.  Maybe I'm missing the point.  In your scenario, 160y F is 3.00 strokes, 34ft G is 2.01; assuming no penalties, that's -0.01 strokes gained.  Good shot.

Nice!... all around and thanks for the answers - I do too linear approximation for in between distances from Broadie's tables... and was referring to the Ultimate charts by Lou Stagner as he's put them out there showing real Tour for all combo (so you don't have to do approximation for in between yardages - but the number of combo is huge)... way easier to do it the way you do - and surely a good enough approximation

 

As for PF - I'd still put them in the ATG category (definitely not a putt nor SG:ptt) but I found that it was a better approximation of SG if I gather the info on FTH and treated it as 'how many strokes to hole out from that distance while putting'...

 

Finally, it has helped me identify areas where there was a definite gap - and more importantly on the frequencies of those shots during a round... why waste time practicing 40ft putts when you get 1 per round and thus don't lose much in that area... while the tour guys are tremendous from 6-9ft and I'm not - and I have a lot of those putts... mostly a factual confirmation, get better at striking your irons from 140-190yds, that's where the meat is (and conversely ATG will just save you from time to time but it's not sustainable)

[fsutanker]

I’ve had shotscope with the watch for about 2 months now. Nobody has asked any questions but I have been bragging to people about them. Total game changer in understanding my golf game. I’d be using it if it were neon green with sparkles.