LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[mosesgolf]

51 minutes ago, jjgott said:

I don't see why any "punishment" couldn't just be that any LIV player wanting to come back to the PGA Tour comes back with zero status.  They can get sponsors invites and Monday qualify, but they can't rely on their past champ status, career money list, or any other exemption.

 

As we've seen with the LIV players and qualifying for the majors, the golfers who actually care about playing will go through the hoops to do so.  The lazy ones will whine about how unfair it is and stay at LIV.

What tournament would decline DJ, BK, Sergio, Phil, Cam, Rahm, and the other top guys from any imo events?  They'd be auto invites wouldn't they.  So for them it wouldn't matter at all.  Zero status vs full status is the same for the top guys imo.

[idrive]

1 hour ago, jjgott said:

I don't see why any "punishment" couldn't just be that any LIV player wanting to come back to the PGA Tour comes back with zero status.  They can get sponsors invites and Monday qualify, but they can't rely on their past champ status, career money list, or any other exemption.

 

As we've seen with the LIV players and qualifying for the majors, the golfers who actually care about playing will go through the hoops to do so.  The lazy ones will whine about how unfair it is and stay at LIV.

Agree except for the part I crossed out.

[idrive]

53 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

What tournament would decline DJ, BK, Sergio, Phil, Cam, Rahm, and the other top guys from any imo events?  They'd be auto invites wouldn't they.  So for them it wouldn't matter at all.  Zero status vs full status is the same for the top guys imo.

 

Sergio?  There are 6-maybe 7 players that folks wouldn't mind seeing play but Sergio isn't one of them.

 

Nobody wants to see Sergio play.

[Cactus Jack]

4 hours ago, idrive said:

 

There's a huge difference between an appearance fee and being bought to play exhibitions.

 

No one was paid an appearance fee to play the Genesis or any other PGAT event here in the States. If other tournaments want a particular player that wasn't planning on playing then they will offer them money to show.

 

There is a huge difference even though you don't want to believe...

PGAT players receive appearance fees in the form of “sponsor-related activities” compensation. Technically the PGAT does not pay, but they allow players and sponsors to negotiate directly. Call it a loophole, or the PGAT turning a blind eye, but PGAT players are paid to show and play in PGAT events. All semantics. 

 

"We are aware that certain tournament sponsors may contract with a player to perform a sponsor-related activity during tournament week for which they receive nominal compensation," the PGA Tour statement said. "This is permissible under our guidelines."

 

Additionally, all/most top players receive some type of show money on the PGAT. There have been many articles published in this fact. 

 

"It makes me laugh because on the PGA Tour, I got paid behind closed doors to show up at tournaments, many tournaments," Watson told ESPN. "And if Bubba Watson's not the best, that means the best were getting paid better than me and more than me. And so it's guaranteed money. I miss the cut, I still make money. I make the cut, I make extra money."
 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bubba-appearance-fees-pga-tour-2022/amp

Edited February 18 by Cactus Jack

[mosesgolf]

26 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

Sergio?  There are 6-maybe 7 players that folks wouldn't mind seeing play but Sergio isn't one of them.

 

Nobody wants to see Sergio play.

Lots of folks don't like Sergio.  Including me.  But I still want to see him play.  The immature lad still has game and we all like to see a trainwreck every now and then come out of his mouth or throw tantrums in the bunker.  

[CDM]

In this thread and others some post up the tv ratings for PGAT Vs LIV.  Seems Nielsen si the basre and had me wondering how Nielsen works.  

 

Funny, will never believe any of those numbers again. Regardless of golf, NFL, NBA, etc.  It s near impossible to tell how many people are really watching as it comes to LIVE events and how Nielsen does the numbers. 

 

I get they can not "really" measure but the ratio they use is crap.  Below from information online from Nielsen.  (They updated in 2020 for live events based on marketing request data)

 

The Nielsen ratings are calculated based on a sample of 40,000 homes and about 100,000 people that’s demographically representative of the population as a whole. It’s a small fraction of the 120 million or so homes with TVs.

 

Ratio of 40,000/120,000,000 = .00003 Ratio.   

 

Have to be honset that is "wing it" math if I have ever seen it.

 

Regardless of sporst, anyone who flips on NFL, NBA, NFL, PGAT even table tennis for what appears to be just 1 min you count in the total of who watched.  So in a 2.0hr to 4 hr event all anyone has to do is watch for 1 min and they count anyone as a viewer. *Live sports that is

 

As it relates to live sports they did update how they provide the information for marketing aspects. 

 

They provide based on "time watched" to live events.  So they could say 1.5 mm watched a game and yet only 250K may have watched the entire event. They not list which never see posted is if someone watched for 10 mins vs 4 hours. 

 

Nielsen were updated in 2020 as it relates to live sports events, such as NFL and other major events are now counted.  Soon as household starts watching a live sporting event it is counted in the ratings as veiwership.  The rating data are now including time. Ratings for watchomng an event for 1 min count in viewership  but now will include time data for household.  The revision to live event is how long a household watches the event.  Ratings to marketers will still inclue viewership and now include duration of time. The total count in total viewership will be counted regardless of time.

 

Base on how these rating work, it pretty apparent it not accurate.   Someone can long on for the last 5 mins of the event, again regardless of event, and it counts in the total.  

 

I know I will flip on the PGAT if it is near the end just see who is winning. So if you watch the last hole, 5-10 mins they count that in the total count though had no interest in watching the other 3 hrs and 50 mins that sponsors are paying for.

 

Edited February 18 by CDM

[CDM]

On 2/16/2024 at 5:10 PM, bekgolf said:

 

They have been paid to show up, it's quite different than playing for a purse and getting your name out for sponsorship monies.  In my view the guys who go to Liv have given up on competition and are just fulfilling a contract by showing up.

 

Your right, no players on the PGAT have ever showed up to play in events for appearance fees. A certain player would  never show up in AUS to play for apperance fees and get caught in his personal transgressions.............

Edited February 18 by CDM

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, idrive said:

 

Sergio?  There are 6-maybe 7 players that folks wouldn't mind seeing play but Sergio isn't one of them.

 

Nobody wants to see Sergio play.

 

I have that attitude toward anyone who went to Liv.  I have less desire to watch a major when those guys are participating.

 

I still don't see why they would want to play PGA events, don't they realize they gave their fans the finger?  Maybe they are so far separated from reality that they don't realize how it works, how they were able to play golf for a living and why people (advertising targets) wanted to watch. 

 

[stinger_gc]

I still think it’s hilarious that this entire mess was created because Phil’s a degenerate gambler 😂

[notsohard]

"So far there’s been 3 events on the Open Championship Qualifying Series and all 3 have been won by players who are on LIV.

Joburg Open - Dean Burmester
Australian Open - Joaco Niemann
Malaysian Open - David Puig

Good to see them making the most of these limited opportunities to gain access to majors."

[bscinstnct]

You put on the Genesis and it’s so far superior to LIV on multiple levels, it’s just embarrassing to even call LIV a golf tour.

 

It’s no surprise that even with the absurd sign ons, LIV can’t get traction. 
 

You see the pga tour and it’s like comparing a Mercedes to

 

[Holy Moses]

4 hours ago, mosesgolf said:

What tournament would decline DJ, BK, Sergio, Phil, Cam, Rahm, and the other top guys from any imo events?  They'd be auto invites wouldn't they.  So for them it wouldn't matter at all.  Zero status vs full status is the same for the top guys imo.

I don’t think the tournament sponsors are happy with those guys since they are a big part of the reason that the Tour is asking for a lot more money from them

[1t2golf]

2 hours ago, CDM said:

 

The Nielsen ratings are calculated based on a sample of 40,000 homes and about 100,000 people that’s demographically representative of the population as a whole. It’s a small fraction of the 120 million or so homes with TVs.

 

Ratio of 40,000/120,000,000 = .00003 Ratio.   

 

Have to be honset that is "wing it" math if I have ever seen it.

 

 

Can't speak on their method of collecting data or what they collect but that's a good sample size statistically speaking. It's not "wing it" math but based on statistical analysis methods.

 

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 

I have that attitude toward anyone who went to Liv.  I have less desire to watch a major when those guys are participating.

 

I still don't see why they would want to play PGA events, don't they realize they gave their fans the finger?  Maybe they are so far separated from reality that they don't realize how it works, how they were able to play golf for a living and why people (advertising targets) wanted to watch. 

 

And I thought it was just me. Last year's Masters had 18 LIV players out of a field of approx. 80 or so, I turned it off early..... At the time, it wasn't a fun watch for me.

[SnowbirdTom]

37 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

And I thought it was just me. Last year's Masters had 18 LIV players out of a field of approx. 80 or so, I turned it off early..... At the time, it wasn't a fun watch for me.

Never tuned in here.  They should have never been invited, eligible or not.

[PedronNiall]

10 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

Absolutely ridiculous 😂. You’re crazy if you think the PIF would be cool with this

 

As of now the merger still isn't a done deal. There remains a good possibility that between the PGA's recent cash infusion and PIF pissing off US government officials that the deal dies a very hard death. 

 

Assuming it doesn't, there absolutely should be penalties for those who caused the chaos of these recent years. If there's no cost then the Tour tells those who stayed loyal they could have simply left for big money and come back to collect on all fronts. Phil finally admitted he knew he was at the end of his career and just wanted the cash. With that plus all of his other very public statements insulting the Tour and clearly not caring what all of this did to the game there's zero reason he deserves to slip back in day one or with no cost. 

 

3 hours ago, notsohard said:

"So far there’s been 3 events on the Open Championship Qualifying Series and all 3 have been won by players who are on LIV.

Joburg Open - Dean Burmester
Australian Open - Joaco Niemann
Malaysian Open - David Puig

Good to see them making the most of these limited opportunities to gain access to majors."

 

Which is completely fair. There are still routes to the Majors for those who went with LIV and they need to avail themselves of them if they want to play. They chose to take the money on an exhibition circuit and are subject to what that entails, including almost no means of earning OWGR points. 

[Dicka]

The only way I'd think a "no penalty" option should be considered is if the entire LIV tour is shelved...and every event is played under a single banner. Even under this scenario, I think there would be widespread annoyance with PGAT members.

 

I just don't see any possibility that any player would be welcomed back if LIV is still operating and a closed shop to 50 guys. 

Edited February 19 by Dicka

[idrive]

8 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

PGAT players receive appearance fees in the form of “sponsor-related activities” compensation. Technically the PGAT does not pay, but they allow players and sponsors to negotiate directly. Call it a loophole, or the PGAT turning a blind eye, but PGAT players are paid to show and play in PGAT events. All semantics. 

 

"We are aware that certain tournament sponsors may contract with a player to perform a sponsor-related activity during tournament week for which they receive nominal compensation," the PGA Tour statement said. "This is permissible under our guidelines."

 

Additionally, all/most top players receive some type of show money on the PGAT. There have been many articles published in this fact. 

 

"It makes me laugh because on the PGA Tour, I got paid behind closed doors to show up at tournaments, many tournaments," Watson told ESPN. "And if Bubba Watson's not the best, that means the best were getting paid better than me and more than me. And so it's guaranteed money. I miss the cut, I still make money. I make the cut, I make extra money."
 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bubba-appearance-fees-pga-tour-2022/amp

 

Yes , BUT. It's not the PGAT that's paying them.

[italianstallion]

7 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

And I thought it was just me. Last year's Masters had 18 LIV players out of a field of approx. 80 or so, I turned it off early..... At the time, it wasn't a fun watch for me.

 

These guys fractured the sport by infusing drama, money, and politics into something I watched to escape all of that. We as fans have been forced to endure three years of this nonsense. Call me fragile but I'm having a hard time watching the majors because 1) the PGA TOUR announced a merger last June, 2) I don't want to see the LIV guys who started this whole mess, and 3) I don't want to hear the commentators talk about the off course drama. That last point isn't to say that if everyone kissed, made up, and started singing kumbaya that I'd come back. It's to say guys like Phil, Bryson, P.Reed, Poulter, etc. ruined what this sport means to me at a professional level, and I’m not buying what these highly flawed and unlikeable people are selling as "good for the game."

 

This whole thing ends one of three ways for me: A) LIV and PGA TOUR merge and I don't watch professional golf again; B) LIV and the PGA TOUR don't merge and I watch the PGA TOUR and majors to root against LIV guys ; C) LIV dies because MBS gets tired of his play thing/needs the billions for his great wall and I return as a viewer of professional golf. Last June, after two years of saber rattling, Jay Mo said we can expect option A. Based on recent interviews from players along with the SSG agreement there might be a world where option B has a chance, but until that day comes I will continue to spend my free time not watching a second of anything related to professional golf. Whatever it ends up being, I wish they'd just get on with it so I can stop wasting time and brain cells writing posts about it.

Edited February 19 by italianstallion

[Titleist99]

46 minutes ago, italianstallion said:

 

These guys fractured the sport by infusing drama, money, and politics into something I watched to escape all of that. We as fans have been forced to endure three years of this nonsense. Call me fragile but I'm having a hard time watching the majors because 1) the PGA TOUR announced a merger last June, 2) I don't want to see the LIV guys who started this whole mess, and 3) I don't want to hear the commentators talk about the off course drama. That last point isn't to say that if everyone kissed, made up, and started singing kumbaya that I'd come back. It's to say guys like Phil, Bryson, P.Reed, Poulter, etc. ruined what this sport means to me at a professional level, and not buying what these highly flawed and unlikeable people are selling as "good for the game."

 

This whole thing ends one of three ways for me: A) LIV and PGA TOUR merge and I don't watch professional golf again; B) LIV and the PGA TOUR don't merge and I watch the PGA TOUR and majors to root against LIV guys ; C) LIV dies because MBS gets tired of his play thing/needs the billions for his great wall and I return as a viewer of professional golf. Last June, after two years of saber rattling, Jay Mo said we can expect option A. Based on recent interviews from players along with the SSG agreement there might be a world where option B has a chance, but until that day comes I will continue to spend my free time not watching a second of anything related to professional golf. Whatever it ends up being, I wish they'd just get on with it so I can stop wasting time and brain cells writing posts about it.

`100%.Welcome to the club. There's a reason why the PGAT doesn't put on team tournaments, because no one watched them in the past. What LIV is trying to do is unwatchable for many reasons, one being that the players that they started with are bad boys directly from the PIP list. Those players had a social media following but it didn't translate to eyeball for them, most are unlikable and when they left, they went out the door trashing the PGAT, lawsuits, etc....

 

The PGAT wants to have PIF as an investor along with SSG. If the FTC or mainly the DOJ allow it to happen it will check all the boxes for the anti-trust laws.

 

The PGAT doesn't need PIF nor do they need SSG. Contrary to popular belief they could go it alone if they chose to do so. IMO Once PIF is aboard the PGAT will look at other investors that they already have lined up. Is it greed or opportunity? Hard to say.

 

~Just my opinion.

[Ghost of Snead]

14 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

The PGAT wants to have PIF as an investor along with SSG. If the FTC or mainly the DOJ allow it to happen it will check all the boxes for the anti-trust laws.

 

If the right people say make it happen, it will happen regardless of anti-trust laws.

    

Edited February 19 by Ghost of Snead

[idrive]

19 hours ago, notsohard said:

"So far there’s been 3 events on the Open Championship Qualifying Series and all 3 have been won by players who are on LIV.

Joburg Open - Dean Burmester
Australian Open - Joaco Niemann
Malaysian Open - David Puig

Good to see them making the most of these limited opportunities to gain access to majors."

 

Wow, that's some pretty stiff competition there...  🤣

[Cactus Jack]

20 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

Wow, that's some pretty stiff competition there...  🤣

it really is a shame the decades of anti-competitive behavior and damage the PGAT has inflicted on the DPWT. 

[hackeraz]

20 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

You put on the Genesis and it’s so far superior to LIV on multiple levels, it’s just embarrassing to even call LIV a golf tour.

 

It’s no surprise that even with the absurd sign ons, LIV can’t get traction. 
 

You see the pga tour and it’s like comparing a Mercedes to

 

I enjoy the PGAT coverage but I do not miss all the downtime, the boring personal stories, and the commercials every four minutes that come with it. At times it's right on par with any World Marathon Major broadcast. 

[smashdn]

21 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 

I have that attitude toward anyone who went to Liv.  I have less desire to watch a major when those guys are participating.

 

I still don't see why they would want to play PGA events, don't they realize they gave their fans the finger?  Maybe they are so far separated from reality that they don't realize how it works, how they were able to play golf for a living and why people (advertising targets) wanted to watch. 

 

 

I realize this is your opinion.  Do you realize this is your opinion?

 

This is my opinion, I always felt that a golfer was/is an entity unto himself.  I won't call him an "independent contractor" because that has a legal definition and I am ignorant of what that definition is.  But I'll just go with, if any guy can show up and Monday qualify (the non-invitational type events), then it seems like it is pretty open. You ought to be able to come and go.

 

That said, I also don't have a problem with the PGAT saying you have to play so many events, etc.  There were multiple examples of golfers who were full time PGAT and Euro/DPWT players.  They found a way to play enough events to satisfy the membership requirements of both.

 

The PGAT was/is a big vacuum that sucks in all the best talent.  But when the shoe was on the other foot they didn't like it.  It was a comeuppance that I found kind of funny.

[CDM]

20 hours ago, 1t2golf said:

 

Can't speak on their method of collecting data or what they collect but that's a good sample size statistically speaking. It's not "wing it" math but based on statistical analysis methods.

 

 

I dont use stats much or at least since college. Not disputing your statement.  I  had stats in college I am sure like most who dont use it day to day forgot most if it.   I do recall there really only two methods for the most part. 

 

Desprictive stats, the summary of mean and median and the others which I assume Nielsen is using is Inferential stats.  Inferential drawing a conclusion from data then actual data.

 

It would have to be Inferential since they sample only 40,000 out of 120,000,000.  That would mean 1200 out 40,000 homes of collected data watched or "part of" some live sporting event.  

 

It makes sense based on the size of market, not sure any other way to collect data on that large of aspect

 

I was actually not looking at related to golf, I was looking at the superbowl.  They are listing it as the most watched sporting event ever apparently but they have a caveat that states "All-or-part of".     *Have a hard time believing it though knowing Soccer has 3 billion followers and broadcast all over the world too..... 

 

I got sided tracked on the "part of" which turns out they count now with live sporting events, depending on... anywhere from 1 min to 3 mins as "watched" in the total count.    

 

I guess I should have stated, to me if someone watches an sporting event for aonly  1-2 mins of a 2.5 hour event or longer that is not watching a sporting event IMHO.   That could be someone flipping channels and stoping for some commercial............ 

 

  

Edited February 19 by CDM

[CDM]

15 hours ago, idrive said:

 

Yes , BUT. It's not the PGAT that's paying them.

 

Dead on it is SSG 

 

I would bet Jimmy D came up with the vesting aspect LOL    He fits the mold of the '90s and early 2000's "scare tatic" guy to save firms from loosing employees.  "well if you leave now you loose 60% what we put in your account".... 🤣

 

I know the tour has to do something but hate to say It, after reading this I am now waiting to see if the move the Fedex cup bonus money into this "vesting" situation again.  

 

Pretty sure the Fedex cup money was paid out over time prior and the players snapped back and it is now paid up front. 

 

If they do move the FEDEX cup money into back into vesting which if a players makes the Fedex cup say 4-5 years in a row, that vesting period carries over each year they play for that said year... over and over and over, year after year after year.     

 

PGAT is a business and they have to keep the employees (players) or there is no business so this is for sure is one way to handcuff players without really paying them via contracts and all up front.  Give them a tons of money but making them have to wait 5 years for it ensures you keep them VS having to pay them now with someone elses money............

[ahenderX]

1 hour ago, CDM said:

 

Dead on it is SSG 

 

I would bet Jimmy D came up with the vesting aspect LOL    He fits the mold of the '90s and early 2000's "scare tatic" guy to save firms from loosing employees.  "well if you leave now you loose 60% what we put in your account".... 🤣

 

I know the tour has to do something but hate to say It, after reading this I am now waiting to see if the move the Fedex cup bonus money into this "vesting" situation again.  

 

Pretty sure the Fedex cup money was paid out over time prior and the players snapped back and it is now paid up front. 

 

If they do move the FEDEX cup money into back into vesting which if a players makes the Fedex cup say 4-5 years in a row, that vesting period carries over each year they play for that said year... over and over and over, year after year after year.     

 

PGAT is a business and they have to keep the employees (players) or there is no business so this is for sure is one way to handcuff players without really paying them via contracts and all up front.  Give them a tons of money but making them have to wait 5 years for it ensures you keep them VS having to pay them now with someone elses money............

Maybe I’m misreading what you are saying. In my opinion, the whole point of giving these large equity amounts and/or bonuses, and having these vest over a 4-5 year period, is to keep these players from defecting to LIV. If there is no Tour/PIF deal, LIV will not be around in four years. 

Edited February 19 by ahenderX

[Cactus Jack]

2 hours ago, ahenderX said:

Maybe I’m misreading what you are saying. In my opinion, the whole point of giving these large equity amounts and/or bonuses, and having these vest over a 4-5 year period, is to keep these players from defecting to LIV. If there is no Tour/PIF deal, LIV will not be around in four years. 

 

You're spot on. The equity is merely a Board attempt to limit player movement & choice. However, I imagine most players see it for what it is as they can't even monetize their position. As such, a LIV cash offer under most present value calculations will likely still win out on the value scale. 

[idrive]

4 hours ago, CDM said:

 

Dead on it is SSG 

 

I would bet Jimmy D came up with the vesting aspect LOL    He fits the mold of the '90s and early 2000's "scare tatic" guy to save firms from loosing employees.  "well if you leave now you loose 60% what we put in your account".... 🤣

 

I know the tour has to do something but hate to say It, after reading this I am now waiting to see if the move the Fedex cup bonus money into this "vesting" situation again.  

 

Pretty sure the Fedex cup money was paid out over time prior and the players snapped back and it is now paid up front. 

 

If they do move the FEDEX cup money into back into vesting which if a players makes the Fedex cup say 4-5 years in a row, that vesting period carries over each year they play for that said year... over and over and over, year after year after year.     

 

PGAT is a business and they have to keep the employees (players) or there is no business so this is for sure is one way to handcuff players without really paying them via contracts and all up front.  Give them a tons of money but making them have to wait 5 years for it ensures you keep them VS having to pay them now with someone elses money............

 

We weren't talking about/referring to what your reply is about.

 

We were talking about appearance money.

 

And, (all) your posts would be much easier to follow if you would proofread them before posting.