LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[tomjas]

Random thought 

 

Why is it necessary for all top players to be playing against each other regularly?

 

Federer and Djokovic played against each other a grand total of 50 times in 20 years and it didn’t do tennis any harm 

 

Yes, I know it’s an individual sport and they were eliminated many times before meeting but that didn’t detract from the interest in the game 

 

What’s more, if the respective tours had any brains whatsoever, they could have a showcase event where it was LIV v PGA Tour as it would be a ratings bonanza 

 

Less can sometimes be more 

[Cactus Jack]

1 hour ago, ahenderX said:

LIV’s association with the International Series and Asian Tour was supposed to be fields of 144 players and include most if not all of the top LIV players. The International Series were supposed to be LIV events. The reason was to boost minimum players per event to help LIV gain access to OWGR points. Clearly this did not occur. LIV Golf has no money. Saudi Golf/PIF does. That’s where the $300 million is coming from.

 

The Macau international series has a 144-player field, which includes nearly 50% of LIV players, for a purse totaling $2M. For 2024 there are now ten elevated events with an incremental $23M in prize money. Per the article I posted, the Asian Tour reached 420 million viewers. I imagine the improved quality of these leaderboards is going to translate to a meaningful boost in golf within APAC countries. Potentially, the AT/LIV/PIF partnership builds some global golf momentum. 

 

The article you reference is a year old and irrelevant now that LIV is no longer pursuing OWGR points. 

[pingbling23]

13 minutes ago, tomjas said:

Random thought 

 

Why is it necessary for all top players to be playing against each other regularly?

 

Federer and Djokovic played against each other a grand total of 50 times in 20 years and it didn’t do tennis any harm 

 

Yes, I know it’s an individual sport and they were eliminated many times before meeting but that didn’t detract from the interest in the game 

 

What’s more, if the respective tours had any brains whatsoever, they could have a showcase event where it was LIV v PGA Tour as it would be a ratings bonanza 

 

Less can sometimes be more 

not playing head to head and not even being in the same tournament is a huge difference.

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, tomjas said:

Random thought 

 

Why is it necessary for all top players to be playing against each other regularly?

 

 

 

IMO it's not that important and takes away from the times we get them all together.  The talent pool runs deep and there is always someone ready to challenge. 

 

The golf year is fairly young and we've seen some fantastic finishes from golfers we hardly knew about because those guys are hungry.

[stinger_gc]

On 3/13/2024 at 12:33 AM, bobfoster said:

Care to report the LIV numbers? And incidentally, YT numbers are not the same as Neilson's. I have clicked on a couple of Good Goods in the past. Watched for all of a couple minutes, then went back to Netflix. But I counted as one of those "{9 million". 

I’d love to dive and see how many people are watch GG’s videos all the way through. I’d assume it’s closer to 2 million.

[Titleist99]

20 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

IMO it's not that important and takes away from the times we get them all together.  The talent pool runs deep and there is always someone ready to challenge. 

 

The golf year is fairly young and we've seen some fantastic finishes from golfers we hardly knew about because those guys are hungry.

Not quite sure why the new narrative is that we want to see the short-pants guys playing against the long-pants guys. The top guys never played against each other that much in the past, to begin with.

[Mcfly]

2 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Not quite sure why the new narrative is that we want to see the short-pants guys playing against the long-pants guys. The top guys never played against each other that much in the past, to begin with.

I think it should be two man teams with each team having a long pants guy and a short pants guy thereby establishing trouser equity into the men’s game.  

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, tomjas said:

Random thought 

 

Why is it necessary for all top players to be playing against each other regularly?

 

Federer and Djokovic played against each other a grand total of 50 times in 20 years and it didn’t do tennis any harm 

 

Yes, I know it’s an individual sport and they were eliminated many times before meeting but that didn’t detract from the interest in the game 

 

What’s more, if the respective tours had any brains whatsoever, they could have a showcase event where it was LIV v PGA Tour as it would be a ratings bonanza 

 

Less can sometimes be more 

"Why is it necessary for all top players to be playing against each other regularly?"

 

It's not, it's just part of the new narrative that nothing is legit if it doesn't have LIV players and all fields are weak that don't have LIV players.

[geauxt]

1 hour ago, tomjas said:

Random thought 

 

Why is it necessary for all top players to be playing against each other regularly?

 

Federer and Djokovic played against each other a grand total of 50 times in 20 years and it didn’t do tennis any harm 

 

Yes, I know it’s an individual sport and they were eliminated many times before meeting but that didn’t detract from the interest in the game 

 

What’s more, if the respective tours had any brains whatsoever, they could have a showcase event where it was LIV v PGA Tour as it would be a ratings bonanza 

 

Less can sometimes be more 

It gets back to the question of whether you’re watching because of specific names in the field or if you’re watching to see great golf being played. 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

The Macau international series has a 144-player field, which includes nearly 50% of LIV players, for a purse totaling $2M. For 2024 there are now ten elevated events with an incremental $23M in prize money. Per the article I posted, the Asian Tour reached 420 million viewers. I imagine the improved quality of these leaderboards is going to translate to a meaningful boost in golf within APAC countries. Potentially, the AT/LIV/PIF partnership builds some global golf momentum. 

 

The article you reference is a year old and irrelevant now that LIV is no longer pursuing OWGR points. 

Psst Jack….reading comprehension is your friend.  The article you posted says the Asian tour could POTENTIALLY REACH 420m viewers.  Not that they already have that many.👍

 

The LIV/Asian Tourrelationship does seem to have expanded Asian Tour viewership reach exponentially to over 420 million viewers in the APAC region. Talk about an enormous growth opportunity and untappedTAM.  

[betarhoalphadelta]

20 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Not quite sure why the new narrative is that we want to see the short-pants guys playing against the long-pants guys. The top guys never played against each other that much in the past, to begin with.

 

I'm no fan of LIV, but I still don't understand why the PGAT has this silly long pants rule. 

 

I mean, some people say "well with today's breathable fabrics, they're pretty much the same!" But I don't buy it. You know how I know? Watching "Live From" on Wednesday following players on practice rounds, just about every player I saw was wearing shorts. 

 

Seems March in Florida weather favors shorts...

 

Acceptable "golf attire" includes shorts. I don't know why the PGAT doesn't get with the times. 

[Dutch1008]

2 hours ago, tomjas said:

Random thought 

 

Why is it necessary for all top players to be playing against each other regularly?

 

Federer and Djokovic played against each other a grand total of 50 times in 20 years and it didn’t do tennis any harm 

 

Yes, I know it’s an individual sport and they were eliminated many times before meeting but that didn’t detract from the interest in the game 

 

What’s more, if the respective tours had any brains whatsoever, they could have a showcase event where it was LIV v PGA Tour as it would be a ratings bonanza 

 

Less can sometimes be more 

 

Ok, so Torrey, Riv, WMO, API, Memorial, Quail Hollow, etc are all worse than they used to be but I should feel good about it because the majors are now even more important than ever? Pass. 

 

Also, hard pass on a PGAT v LIV event. People barely pay attention to the presidents cup and you want to build a series of events around the manufactured drama between the PGAT and LIV? Bleh. These dudes are all neighbors. They play practice rounds together. They see each other at Medalist, Bear's Club, or Grove XXIII everyday they're not on the road. There is no real animosity. There are no patriotic affiliations. A PGAT v LIV event would be pure reality TV cheese. 🤢  

Edited March 14 by Dutch1008

[ahenderX]

1 hour ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

The Macau international series has a 144-player field, which includes nearly 50% of LIV players, for a purse totaling $2M. For 2024 there are now ten elevated events with an incremental $23M in prize money. Per the article I posted, the Asian Tour reached 420 million viewers. I imagine the improved quality of these leaderboards is going to translate to a meaningful boost in golf within APAC countries. Potentially, the AT/LIV/PIF partnership builds some global golf momentum. 

 

The article you reference is a year old and irrelevant now that LIV is no longer pursuing OWGR points. 

It’s relevant based on my first post and LMAO’s reply. LIV was never “seriously” pursuing OWGR points. They just want to play the victim card.

[betarhoalphadelta]

4 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Psst Jack….reading comprehension is your friend.  The article you posted says the Asian tour could POTENTIALLY REACH 420m viewers.  Not that they already have that many.👍

 

The LIV/Asian Tourrelationship does seem to have expanded Asian Tour viewership reach exponentially to over 420 million viewers in the APAC region. Talk about an enormous growth opportunity and untappedTAM.  

 

It's an enormous TAM. China and India have a combined 2.8B population and are close enough in time zones to each other to have a combined Asian tour that encompasses both countries. And that's not even including the rest of Southeast Asia, Australia/NZ, etc. 

 

If golf takes off like crazy over there, and if the demographics start to look good to advertisers, their market would absolutely dwarf the Americas or Europe.  

 

Knowing how these things actually play out, that's probably a generation or two away if it ever happens though. 

[Titleist99]

9 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I'm no fan of LIV, but I still don't understand why the PGAT has this silly long pants rule. 

 

I mean, some people say "well with today's breathable fabrics, they're pretty much the same!" But I don't buy it. You know how I know? Watching "Live From" on Wednesday following players on practice rounds, just about every player I saw was wearing shorts. 

 

Seems March in Florida weather favors shorts...

 

Acceptable "golf attire" includes shorts. I don't know why the PGAT doesn't get with the times. 

Just to be clear, PGAT players can wear Knickers any time they wish.😎

[Shilgy]

6 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

It's an enormous TAM. China and India have a combined 2.8B population and are close enough in time zones to each other to have a combined Asian tour that encompasses both countries. And that's not even including the rest of Southeast Asia, Australia/NZ, etc. 

 

If golf takes off like crazy over there, and if the demographics start to look good to advertisers, their market would absolutely dwarf the Americas or Europe.  

 

Knowing how these things actually play out, that's probably a generation or two away if it ever happens though. 

Yes, the market is huge. But would the market be for Asian Tour or DP/PGA Tours?  
 

Put it this way….and I don’t know the answer if it is even findable….do more Americans follow MLS or Premier League?  Folks I know that follow that are interested in Premier League only.

 

Put another way…would increasing interest in golf lead them to watch the minor leagues or majors?

[CDM]

9 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yes. The statements aren't really in conflict, actually. 

 

The fans want to see the best players playing, together. That's what we had before LIV. Some guys left to go to LIV, and now they've splintered the sport creating two competing tours and diluting the talent pool. So far, it doesn't seem like the fans have rewarded that move by watching that other tour. 

 

If you have to ask who caused this situation, wouldn't you blame the ones who changed it (LIV), rather than the ones who chose to stay on the established tour which already had what the fans wanted? 

 

The rest of it is that he's saying that he knows that those other players are adults, and are doing what they believe is best for themselves and their families, and he respects their right to make that decision.

 

But those decisions are exactly WHY fans are not getting what they want. If you want to lay the "blame", lay it there. 

 

 

We had this discussion in the office yesterday funny enough and we finalized it somewhat as you note.  

 

We all agreeded LIV the entity did change / cause the issue by "offering" a new tour and the money. Though all agreed there is NO laws saying anyone could not start there own tour if they wanted?  When Scotty stated they are the ones that left...IE meaning the players that took the money seems odd indicating they did not have to take the money... or how we read it... like Scotty would not have taken it as he noted.

 

It is a personal choice they have to live with going to LIV.   We joked "They did not have to take the money" is the crux of it.  Yet pretty much all said they would have taken the money if there shoes for the sums tossed out by the PIF. 

 

PIF is to blame on paying and enticing the plaeyrs but at the same time it seems to be hanging on to the past (at this point in time) that players are not paid. All the top are saying less players, only top players back together, etc. now.   

 

We all debated now that SSG is giving a "Handful of players" 750m of the intitial 950m well then does it really matter at this point? 

 

Now we have the PGAT players being more open and stating little faith in Jay and he has a long road to earn it back.  Seems like everyone now thinks they should have talked when the chance was there to start with see given Jay in the presser noted a number of times he wants the deal done with the P I F .  

 

Someone did note...WHAT IF.... The DP Tour had sold / merged with the PIF as the PGAT was affraid of?  Ie: why they dropped all the money to buy more control of them to stop it.

 

Would the DP Tour now be "The Tour"  as they would have paid the players and as we know a majority of the LIV players are from EURO anyway.   We will never know now but we know Kieth P had a few "interesting" comments about Jay on his way out. 

 

[ahenderX]

32 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

It's an enormous TAM. China and India have a combined 2.8B population and are close enough in time zones to each other to have a combined Asian tour that encompasses both countries. And that's not even including the rest of Southeast Asia, Australia/NZ, etc. 

 

If golf takes off like crazy over there, and if the demographics start to look good to advertisers, their market would absolutely dwarf the Americas or Europe.  

 

Knowing how these things actually play out, that's probably a generation or two away if it ever happens though. 

From what I can find, there are about 500 golf courses in China. About 300 in India. About one course per 3.125M people. I think my math is correct.

Edited March 14 by ahenderX

[CDM]

7 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Sunday 2023 was a dog fight coming down the stretch. Sunday 2024 was a forgone conclusion that Scheffler would seal the victory. IMO

 

~After LIV benefited from earlier tournaments rain delays their CW coverage didn't attract added viewers. 

 

Each event numbers are down this year.  We all know this, heck the CG crew keep talking about it as if they are worried now. 

 

The players know it and keep talking about how they have to get everyone back together and do it for the fans.

 

Normally NEVER agree with Brandle C....heck when he is on my wife makes me mute the TV 🤣....but he was right this week when noted on LIVE from The Players all ratings are down by a decent amount and something has to be done.

 

It is confusing that Jay and Brandle both said golf is booming, yet then they noted how the ratings are down. 

 

I think recreational golf is up but Brandle and Paul M nailed it....that the FANS are sick of multi-millonaires on both sides constantaly talking about MONEY all the time....

 

[CDM]

56 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

"Why is it necessary for all top players to be playing against each other regularly?"

 

It's not, it's just part of the new narrative that nothing is legit if it doesn't have LIV players and all fields are weak that don't have LIV players.

 

Vaild but I think the "weak fields" is why is Jay and a number of players on the PGAT are stating they need to make a deal so they can get all the top players back together.  Ratings being part of it I have to assume and fans comments

 

It is interesting that a numuber of the PGAT players are openly stating the LIV has a number of top 10 - top 25 players and the OWGR is not really valid.  Brandle brought it up Wednesday nigth and Paul snipped at him saying we already went down that path earlier this week.  🤣  

 

 

[tomjas]

10 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

From what I can find, there are about 500 golf courses in China. About 300 in India. About one course per 3.125M people. I think my math is correct.

You can’t expect golf to achieve the same market penetration of cricket in India but just to put things into perspective, the Indian Premier League generates broadcast revenues of >$7 billion and individual franchises are valued at >$800 million 

 

There’s also similar tournaments in Pakistan (population 230 million), Bangladesh (170 million) etc 

 

Furthermore, the population of the Middle East is bigger than the US

 

Golf’s growth areas are outside the US & that’s undeniable 

[Rob G 89]

Question if a player who never had pga membership such as Eugenio Chaccara, David Puig or Caleb Surrat won the us open or British open would they be allowed to play in the players championship? 

[bcjim]

3 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I'm no fan of LIV, but I still don't understand why the PGAT has this silly long pants rule. 

 

I mean, some people say "well with today's breathable fabrics, they're pretty much the same!" But I don't buy it. You know how I know? Watching "Live From" on Wednesday following players on practice rounds, just about every player I saw was wearing shorts. 

 

Seems March in Florida weather favors shorts...

 

Acceptable "golf attire" includes shorts. I don't know why the PGAT doesn't get with the times. 

I used to think this way, and still do to some extent. I have no real opposition to shorts but it does, at the end of the day, look uniformly better with pants. Some guys just don't need to be seen on television in shorts. 

 

Additionally, did you see how red some of those guys were in post round interviews?  I, to be honest, don't wear pants, I go with shorts.  But I do wear long sleeves under my polo or arm sleeves and I'm 500+ miles N of Florida. Covering up is not really uncomfortable, it can be actually more comfortable in the long run in blazing sun. If nothing else you avoid slathering sunscreen on half your body. 

 

Most people that work for a living in the sun. Roofers, Highway crews, etc. They are covered entirely. And its not just the UV, its the radiant heat.

[idrive]

7 hours ago, notsohard said:

LMAO.... may be time to lock me out of this thread. 

 

Fixed it for you.

[tomjas]

1 hour ago, bcjim said:

I used to think this way, and still do to some extent. I have no real opposition to shorts but it does, at the end of the day, look uniformly better with pants. Some guys just don't need to be seen on television in shorts. 

 

Additionally, did you see how red some of those guys were in post round interviews?  I, to be honest, don't wear pants, I go with shorts.  But I do wear long sleeves under my polo or arm sleeves and I'm 500+ miles N of Florida. Covering up is not really uncomfortable, it can be actually more comfortable in the long run in blazing sun. If nothing else you avoid slathering sunscreen on half your body. 

 

Most people that work for a living in the sun. Roofers, Highway crews, etc. They are covered entirely. And its not just the UV, its the radiant heat.

I live in Australia and we know skin cancer

 

Anyone who spends time outdoors should be wearing spf50 and covering up as much as possible e.g. long trousers, bucket hats not caps, etc

 

There’s good breathable fabrics available and you don’t get any hotter than in shorts 

 

Guarantee that not all these guys will put screen on their legs and no prizes for guessing where sunspots will occur 

 

Btw, overcast weather is no protection 

[ahenderX]

11 hours ago, tomjas said:

You can’t expect golf to achieve the same market penetration of cricket in India but just to put things into perspective, the Indian Premier League generates broadcast revenues of >$7 billion and individual franchises are valued at >$800 million 

 

There’s also similar tournaments in Pakistan (population 230 million), Bangladesh (170 million) etc 

 

Furthermore, the population of the Middle East is bigger than the US

 

Golf’s growth areas are outside the US & that’s undeniable 

There are approximately 254 million people in the five largest Middle East countries - Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia. There may be more people in the Middle East than the US but I would not go all in on golf growth in this region. Nor China or India. China, in 2015, was in the process of building 110 golf courses. In 2017, all work was halted to focus on public housing. India may be in love with cricket. Golf, not so much.

[Pastit]

17 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

There are approximately 254 million people in the five largest Middle East countries - Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia. There may be more people in the Middle East than the US but I would not go all in on golf growth in this region. Nor China or India. China, in 2015, was in the process of building 110 golf courses. In 2017, all work was halted to focus on public housing. India may be in love with cricket. Golf, not so much.

And they have a different definition of bunkers !

[idrive]

Danny Lee can win a liv exhibition but brings up the rear on the Asian tour?

 

I'm thinking he forgot where he was playing and doesn't get paid for showing up and taking last place.

 

 

 

.

 

 

Edited March 15 by idrive

[Shilgy]

14 hours ago, tomjas said:

You can’t expect golf to achieve the same market penetration of cricket in India but just to put things into perspective, the Indian Premier League generates broadcast revenues of >$7 billion and individual franchises are valued at >$800 million 

 

There’s also similar tournaments in Pakistan (population 230 million), Bangladesh (170 million) etc 

 

Furthermore, the population of the Middle East is bigger than the US

 

Golf’s growth areas are outside the US & that’s undeniable 

The cricket deal earned $480b rupees…~$5.7b US for a five year deal. Not annual.

PGA tour earns more…$1.9b in 2022

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, ahenderX said:

There are approximately 254 million people in the five largest Middle East countries - Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia. There may be more people in the Middle East than the US but I would not go all in on golf growth in this region. Nor China or India. China, in 2015, was in the process of building 110 golf courses. In 2017, all work was halted to focus on public housing. India may be in love with cricket. Golf, not so much.

I seem to recall that in the Middle East and China golf is where it was in the US over a century ago. Strictly the playground of the upper class.