LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Danielson said:

 

Agreed. This totally ignores the (former) Caffeine TV viewers

All 45 of them…or was it 450?   Or was it 4.5k?  And some claimed the “k” meant millions?

[bscinstnct]

53 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Sheesh! I've heard of moving the goal posts but I guess when you can't score at all you just take away the goal posts 🤣

 

 

 

You can’t trust the Google data

 

But everybody knows 9,000,0000 people are watching liv of 

 

the app! 🤣

[Archimedes65]

4 hours ago, fowlerscousin said:

Why boomer stats like tv ratings and google trends is the hill you choose to die on. What's next cholesterol levels

 

You know that chart isn’t tv ratings, right?

[Danielson]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

All 45 of them…or was it 450?   Or was it 4.5k?  And some claimed the “k” meant millions?

 

Listen we can't just dismiss the impact of having 4.5 Trillion LIV viewers on one platform.

[Dutch1008]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

This IMHO is one of the reasons--among many--that I think LIV with the idea that they're trying to seek out this mythical "younger demographic" is misguided. They're the ones, like us, that find the weekends the absolutely hardest time of the week to devote to watching golf. They're too busy doing fun stuff because they've been at work all week. 

 

They're also poor. At least relatively speaking. They aren't buying new gear every year. They aren't engaging w/ golf's flagship sponsors. Sure, they'll show up at local event to drink beer and yell "mashed potatoes", but they aren't playing a ProV1, they aren't buying the brand new TaylorMade driver, they aren't opening a trading account at Schwab, they aren't making the decision to move their corporate banking to Well Fargo. 

 

As a professional sport, golf punches way above it's weight. What I mean by that is the purses offered to players, the broadcast rights secured by the tour, the cost of advertising during an event is far higher than the eyeballs watching the sport justifies. Golf just has a more valuable demographic than other sports. The net worth and disposable income of your casual golf fan is far higher than your average football, basketball, or soccer fan. This is why Arnold Palmer made so much damn money off the course. It's why financial services, pharma, and luxury goods dominate golf's commercial load. 

 

Professional golf should pay attention to the younger demographic, but not at the expense of their core. Growth will come from the younger demographic, but the majority of the revenues will always be coming from the core. 

[Danielson]

2 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

They're also poor. At least relatively speaking. They aren't buying new gear every year. They aren't engaging w/ golf's flagship sponsors. Sure, they'll show up at local event to drink beer and yell "mashed potatoes", but they aren't playing a ProV1, they aren't buying the brand new TaylorMade driver, they aren't opening a trading account at Schwab, they aren't making the decision to move their corporate banking to Well Fargo. 

 

As a professional sport, golf punches way above it's weight. What I mean by that is the purses offered to players, the broadcast rights secured by the tour, the cost of advertising during an event is far higher than the eyeballs watching the sport justifies. Golf just has a more valuable demographic than other sports. The net worth and disposable income of your casual golf fan is far higher than your average football, basketball, or soccer fan. This is why Arnold Palmer made so much damn money off the course. It's why financial services, pharma, and luxury goods dominate golf's commercial load. 

 

Professional golf should pay attention to the younger demographic, but not at the expense of their core. Growth will come from the younger demographic, but the majority of the revenues will always be coming from the core. 

 

And in theory this should leave to LIV having a huge advantage with that demographic. They don't need to sell ads. In fact, it's one of the things they tout as making them better than the PGA Tour. The demographics purchasing habits don't matter when you're not showing advertisements anyways. They just need to figure out what demographic wants to see so they can broadcast it and gain... something?

[Dutch1008]

1 minute ago, Danielson said:

And in theory this should leave to LIV having a huge advantage with that demographic. They don't need to sell ads. In fact, it's one of the things they tout as making them better than the PGA Tour. The demographics purchasing habits don't matter when you're not showing advertisements anyways. They just need to figure out what demographic wants to see so they can broadcast it and gain... something?

 

LIV absolutely needs to sell ads. Just because the PIF can afford to fully subsidize this endeavor doesn't mean they actually want to. Youtube and streaming via an app was not the original business plan. They wanted to sell the broadcast rights to Fox. They settled for paying CW to broadcast their events in hopes that they could make more by selling their own ads.

 

 

 

[Archimedes65]

2 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

LIV absolutely needs to sell ads. Just because the PIF can afford to fully subsidize this endeavor doesn't mean they actually want to. Youtube and streaming via an app was not the original business plan. They wanted to sell the broadcast rights to Fox. They settled for paying CW to broadcast their events in hopes that they could make more by selling their own ads.

 

 

 

For sure, but they don’t just need to sell a few ads.  LIV needs a major broadcast rights sale to even remotely begin to approach break even given their enormous cost structure.  Even if you throw out the billions that they’ve shelled out in up front payments, their purses and tournament costs are enormous, and they are footing the bill for the all the media production and the telecasts themselves.  They are losing a huge chunk of money on every tournament and there’s no indication whatsoever that they’ve got any major sponsors or broadcast rights sales on the horizon that might offset some of that.  There’s always a lot of spin coming out of the House of Norman, but until they have a roster of major sponsors and a major broadcast deal, they’re just going to be a money pyre.  Again, in a long list of missteps by these guys, starting up without any major sponsors or potential broadcast options nailed down was moronic.

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

They're also poor. At least relatively speaking. They aren't buying new gear every year. They aren't engaging w/ golf's flagship sponsors. Sure, they'll show up at local event to drink beer and yell "mashed potatoes", but they aren't playing a ProV1, they aren't buying the brand new TaylorMade driver, they aren't opening a trading account at Schwab, they aren't making the decision to move their corporate banking to Well Fargo. 

 

As a professional sport, golf punches way above it's weight. What I mean by that is the purses offered to players, the broadcast rights secured by the tour, the cost of advertising during an event is far higher than the eyeballs watching the sport justifies. Golf just has a more valuable demographic than other sports. The net worth and disposable income of your casual golf fan is far higher than your average football, basketball, or soccer fan. This is why Arnold Palmer made so much damn money off the course. It's why financial services, pharma, and luxury goods dominate golf's commercial load. 

 

Professional golf should pay attention to the younger demographic, but not at the expense of their core. Growth will come from the younger demographic, but the majority of the revenues will always be coming from the core. 

And there's a reason that Cialis and Viagra advertise during golf tournaments........That's where their targeted audience resides. 

=========

 

Golf is especially attractive to the service industry as you stated.

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

There’s always a lot of spin coming out of the House of Norman, but until they have a roster of major sponsors and a major broadcast deal, they’re just going to be a money pyre.  Again, in a long list of missteps by these guys, starting up without any major sponsors or potential broadcast options nailed down was moronic.

^^^^This is the bottom line........ It is hard for anyone to spin it differently unless someone says:

 

"The Saudis are just giving away money and they're not interested in a return on their money"

Edited Monday at 11:17 PM by Titleist99

[notsohard]

Interesting to see which US PGAT player replaces Perez at the end of the year. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

43 minutes ago, notsohard said:

Interesting to see which US PGAT player replaces Perez at the end of the year. 

You know, with young kids I wasn't really watching golf from 2010-2015. I played a little, but not much (~2 rounds a year). Then from 2015-2020 I didn't do either. 

 

When LIV first started and Pat Perez went to LIV, I asked "who"? I'd literally never heard of him. 

 

And the more I learned about him, the more I realized how little I'd been missing 😂

 

[notsohard]

9 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

You know, with young kids I wasn't really watching golf from 2010-2015. I played a little, but not much (~2 rounds a year). Then from 2015-2020 I didn't do either. 

 

When LIV first started and Pat Perez went to LIV, I asked "who"? I'd literally never heard of him. 

 

And the more I learned about him, the more I realized how little I'd been missing 😂

 

Ok then, back to the subject at hand.......

[Dutch1008]

4 hours ago, notsohard said:

Interesting to see which US PGAT player replaces Perez at the end of the year. 

 

Bruv you could say that about 2/3 of the LIV roster 🤣 

 

Graeme McDowell is currently 21st in the LIV season standings. Datagolf currently has McDowell's strokes gained index at -0.51. That means he's losing 1/2 shot per round compared to an average PGAT golfer. There are probably 150 guys across the DPWT, KFT, and NCAA that "deserve" those opportunities over McDowell. And again, he's 21st in LIV's season standings!

 

LIV should worry a little less about poaching top 150 talent from the PGAT and more on casting out their deadweight and filling it up w/ DPWT and KFT pros that aren't a complete drag on the circuit.   

Edited yesterday at 01:34 AM by Dutch1008

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, notsohard said:

Interesting to see which US PGAT player replaces Perez at the end of the year. 

 

Well if it’s another player of his caliber, I wouldn’t necessarily call it ‘interesting’….  More like, forgettable…

[bscinstnct]

2 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Bruv you could say that about 2/3 of the LIV roster 🤣 

 

Graeme McDowell is currently 21st in the LIV season standings. Datagolf currently has McDowell's strokes gained index at -0.51. That means he's losing 1/2 shot per round compared to an average PGAT golfer. There are probably 150 guys across the DPWT, KFT, and NCAA that "deserve" those opportunities over McDowell. And again, he's 21st in LIV's season standings!

 

LIV should worry a little less about poaching top 150 talent from the PGAT and more on casting out their deadweight and filling it up w/ DPWT and KFT that aren't a complete drag on the circuit.   

 

This is why no one takes the teams seriously. 
 

LIV would seem at risk of collapsing on itself. 
 

There’s just too many players that LIV needs to pay big money for but who don’t really make much of an impact

 

Like Hatton. There’s going to be dozens of guys like Hatton (or better) who come through the pga tour over the next few years that the tour gets for “free” because of the huge pipeline. 
 

LIV reportedly paid 63 million for Hatton. 
 

So is liv going to keep paying this kind of money for guys who aren’t even that great?

 

It’s crazy there’s so much parity in golf now. Nobody wins many majors now. 
 

So will liv just have this constant “cascade” of good but not really impact players coming and going and they just keep paying 50, 100MM for them? 🤣

 

And players know that with no “deal” they need to get huge money for liv because what if they don’t get their contract renewed and liv gets bored of them?

 

What happens to them anyway? Guess we will start finding out soon

 

I mean, have they projected what liv could look like in a few years? 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:17 AM by bscinstnct

[Dicka]

You know you're in a bit of strife when the LIV fan accounts online are proclaiming Blandy as the second coming...I'm happy for the guy, but needle mover? Yeah...nah. 

[smashdn]

13 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

This is why no one takes the teams seriously. 
 

LIV would seem at risk of collapsing on itself. 
 

There’s just too many players that LIV needs to pay big money for but who don’t really make much of an impact

 

Like Hatton. There’s going to be dozens of guys like Hatton (or better) who come through the pga tour over the next few years that the tour gets for “free” because of the huge pipeline. 

 

That's the benefit the PGAT has created for itself.  It is a vacuum for talent in the golf world.  It sucks in the best golfers by virtue of giving those golfers a pathway to more money.  It directly owns the pipeline in the western hemisphere (PGA University, Americas, KFT) and directly sucks from the DP World Tour (top ten get PGAT cards) and it also extends membership worldwide to players via the special temporary membership.  I think in business terms one would call it both horizontally and vertically integrated.  

 

It is so well entrenched it is almost by default the way you play professional golf above a regional level in this half of the world.

 

I don't think LIV, by design, can ever be like that because there are so few spots comparatively speaking.  How do you build a "farm system" around so few spots total and so few open spots specifically.

 

13 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

LIV reportedly paid 63 million for Hatton. 
 

So is liv going to keep paying this kind of money for guys who aren’t even that great?

 

It’s crazy there’s so much parity in golf now. Nobody wins many majors now. 

 

Look at the list of winners from the timeframe 1986 to 1996.  I think we are currently in a similar type of deal.  Call it parity or call it no head-and-shoulders above dominate player.  I don't think this is crazy actually.  The craziness is the converse, the Jack and Tiger periods.  I know quite a bit about the career of Ben Hogan, and even (imo) he didn't quite rise to the level of dominance in majors as Jack and Tiger.

 

13 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

So will liv just have this constant “cascade” of good but not really impact players coming and going and they just keep paying 50, 100MM for them? 🤣

 

And players know that with no “deal” they need to get huge money for liv because what if they don’t get their contract renewed and liv gets bored of them?

 

What happens to them anyway? Guess we will start finding out soon

 

I think several of these guys just retire and fade away.  Westwood, Poulter, McDowell, Stenson, Mickelson.  Not like any of them have to keep "working" unless they want to sustain an unsustainable lifestyle otherwise.

 

13 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

I mean, have they projected what liv could look like in a few years? 

 

My opinion, it either fades away or is absorbed back into the PGAT somehow and fades away, or it becomes what it was designed to be from the outset.  I think one or the other.  It completely fails or completely works.  No in between.  There is no room for in between.  Truthfully the DPWT is the current in-between and it is not as stable as it used to be.

[freeze16172002]

18 hours ago, Danielson said:

 

And in theory this should leave to LIV having a huge advantage with that demographic. They don't need to sell ads. In fact, it's one of the things they tout as making them better than the PGA Tour. The demographics purchasing habits don't matter when you're not showing advertisements anyways. They just need to figure out what demographic wants to see so they can broadcast it and gain... something?

Then what is the plan to make a profit or atleast pay for itself? No ad revenue, no sponsorship, no network deal. What else is there, event ticket sales and merch? If a PGA deal falls apart so does LIV. The idea that the PIF is willing to finance this mess forever is naive. Every business, every fund downsizes steady weak performers to zero. LIV cannot look at investors/PIF and tell them to hold on if the PGA is no longer an option, there will be nothing to hold for

Edited yesterday at 02:35 PM by freeze16172002

[Chopper Dave]

6 hours ago, Dicka said:

You know you're in a bit of strife when the LIV fan accounts online are proclaiming Blandy as the second coming...I'm happy for the guy, but needle mover? Yeah...nah. 

PGA riders did exactly the same for Knapp

[bscinstnct]

55 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

That's the benefit the PGAT has created for itself.  It is a vacuum for talent in the golf world.  It sucks in the best golfers by virtue of giving those golfers a pathway to more money.  It directly owns the pipeline in the western hemisphere (PGA University, Americas, KFT) and directly sucks from the DP World Tour (top ten get PGAT cards) and it also extends membership worldwide to players via the special temporary membership.  I think in business terms one would call it both horizontally and vertically integrated.  

 

It is so well entrenched it is almost by default the way you play professional golf above a regional level in this half of the world.

 

I don't think LIV, by design, can ever be like that because there are so few spots comparatively speaking.  How do you build a "farm system" around so few spots total and so few open spots specifically.

 

 

Look at the list of winners from the timeframe 1986 to 1996.  I think we are currently in a similar type of deal.  Call it parity or call it no head-and-shoulders above dominate player.  I don't think this is crazy actually.  The craziness is the converse, the Jack and Tiger periods.  I know quite a bit about the career of Ben Hogan, and even (imo) he didn't quite rise to the level of dominance in majors as Jack and Tiger.

 

 

I think several of these guys just retire and fade away.  Westwood, Poulter, McDowell, Stenson, Mickelson.  Not like any of them have to keep "working" unless they want to sustain an unsustainable lifestyle otherwise.

 

 

My opinion, it either fades away or is absorbed back into the PGAT somehow and fades away, or it becomes what it was designed to be from the outset.  I think one or the other.  It completely fails or completely works.  No in between.  There is no room for in between.  Truthfully the DPWT is the current in-between and it is not as stable as it used to be.

 

cheers 🍻 sdn, good stuff

 

I will lmao if Rory goes to LIV

 

How hilarious would it be to see him walking around in jorts 🤣 acting like he loves it.

 

Rory can call his team

The Chokers 🤣

 

 

 

[dalehead]

6 hours ago, Dicka said:

You know you're in a bit of strife when the LIV fan accounts online are proclaiming Blandy as the second coming...I'm happy for the guy, but needle mover? Yeah...nah. 

 

So you don’t think LIV’s huge younger demographic will be excited about Bland’s victory?

[CasualLie]

16 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

This is why no one takes the teams seriously. 
 

LIV would seem at risk of collapsing on itself. 
 

There’s just too many players that LIV needs to pay big money for but who don’t really make much of an impact

 

Like Hatton. There’s going to be dozens of guys like Hatton (or better) who come through the pga tour over the next few years that the tour gets for “free” because of the huge pipeline. 
 

LIV reportedly paid 63 million for Hatton. 
 

So is liv going to keep paying this kind of money for guys who aren’t even that great?

 

It’s crazy there’s so much parity in golf now. Nobody wins many majors now. 
 

So will liv just have this constant “cascade” of good but not really impact players coming and going and they just keep paying 50, 100MM for them? 🤣

 

And players know that with no “deal” they need to get huge money for liv because what if they don’t get their contract renewed and liv gets bored of them?

 

What happens to them anyway? Guess we will start finding out soon

 

I mean, have they projected what liv could look like in a few years? 

 

 

 

Interesting points.  I have often posted golf needs "characters" to keep it interesting.  But seeing what LIV is doing, and the downfall of Pat Perez (I bet ex-Mrs. Perez has no sympathy and is taking him to the cleaners), now I am thinking while golf needs "characters", that does not mean you can build an entire tour on them.  Once you mix in a foul-mouthed hot head, a coke addict, a guy with a P as his logo and proud, a couple of fiery Spaniards, a gambler, a mental midget, and an asterisk, etc...you still need the poster boy winner.  A few of them.  Otherwise, you just have this train wreck of a tour.  Fun to watch in small doses, but it gets tiresome.

 

Which is also why, now that I think about this a little more (like a few seconds), per my post last week about GN's interview, this is a "scam" all along.  GN and other investors are not in this for taking over a new paradigm of a golf tour.  The players think they are, but no, this is about fleecing those who want a piece of the golf action but could not get access before.  GN's idea that teams have their own "home course".  Now who is going to pay for that?  Not PIF.  PIF will buy the land, maybe even chip in on some development, but others, like government entities, will foot the bill, or unsuspecting investment funds.  The promise of all these "events" built around a branded LIV team, real estate, tourism, etc...And the players?  You need just enough "characters" to get others to buy into the vision.

 

The LIV golf at the top, the player signings, the tournaments....that's just marketing.  The real money is in the downstream stuff.  And we know what it is like for the investors getting in too far downstream, over promised and under delivered returns.

 

As I said, GN is no dummy.  He's sold quite a story to PIF, and it just may work for a handful of people, but sorry ARum, you still aren't getting that "green jacket".

 

 

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

Then what is the plan to make a profit or atleast pay for itself? No ad revenue, no sponsorship, no network deal. What else is there, event ticket sales and merch? If a PGA deal falls apart so does LIV. The idea that the PIF is willing to finance this mess forever is naive. Every business, every fund downsizes steady weak performers to zero. LIV cannot look at investors/PIF and tell them to hold on if the PGA is no longer an option, there will be nothing to hold for

 

Sell the teams/franchises, take in a percentage of what the owners of the teams take in.  Leave the management of the team, within the LIV framework, up to those that own them.

 

^That is my supposition.  Clearly that plan is fraught with problems.

 

The teams become like a football club at that point.  Make us much revenue as you like, or not, but field a squad within the framework of the rules.  If you cannot you lose and get relegated.  But that means shaking themselves free of the contracts.

[subrew]

21 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

For sure, but they don’t just need to sell a few ads.  LIV needs a major broadcast rights sale to even remotely begin to approach break even given their enormous cost structure.  Even if you throw out the billions that they’ve shelled out in up front payments, their purses and tournament costs are enormous, and they are footing the bill for the all the media production and the telecasts themselves.  They are losing a huge chunk of money on every tournament and there’s no indication whatsoever that they’ve got any major sponsors or broadcast rights sales on the horizon that might offset some of that.  There’s always a lot of spin coming out of the House of Norman, but until they have a roster of major sponsors and a major broadcast deal, they’re just going to be a money pyre.  Again, in a long list of missteps by these guys, starting up without any major sponsors or potential broadcast options nailed down was moronic.

 

I'm not all claiming either of these sponsors are major, but they have made a couple in roads this year.

 

You'll notice the leaderboard is now brought to you by Maserati, and Maserati commercials air during the show, and they have done dumb promo shorts with Poulter driving his Maserati courtesy car to the event with a teammate.  Maserati hole-in-one cars too.

 

They have also had "this hour of coverage brought to you by Progressive Insurance."  Lots of progressive commercials during other times too.

 

Easypost is a league-wide sponsor, and you'll see their logos on stuff, including some team gear.

 

I think the Saudi event had an actual title sponsor too, it was a Real Estate company.  "LIV Golf Presented by ROSHN" was the official name used for the event, or some such thing.  Which isn't much removed from a PGAT event sponsored by XYZ company.

 

PXG commercials have been pretty steady too, which is odd, since Bob Parson fell back on his rah rah I was a marine shtick when asked if he would ever sponsor a LIV player last year.    

 

 

What they need is a big mega-corp as a presenting sponsor.  I'm just totally making this up, but imagine someone like a General Motors.  Each of the events could have a different line of GM project.  The Texas event could be the GMC Sierra Houston Open or something stupid.  A New England event could be Cadillac.  Holden in Australia.  The Greater Detroit Open by Hummer. 

 

I personally don't care if they ever get a major sponsor, because I don't want to see more commercials.  And I don't want to see 5 minutes wasted on interviewing their CEO.  

[Danielson]

2 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

Then what is the plan to make a profit or atleast pay for itself? No ad revenue, no sponsorship, no network deal. What else is there, event ticket sales and merch? If a PGA deal falls apart so does LIV. The idea that the PIF is willing to finance this mess forever is naive. Every business, every fund downsizes steady weak performers to zero. LIV cannot look at investors/PIF and tell them to hold on if the PGA is no longer an option, there will be nothing to hold for

 

It will never pay for itself. The PGA Tour's TV deal wouldn't even pay the alleged LIV contracts much less the ongoing costs and purses. Whatever it is the PIF wants, it's not a profitable business running a pro golf league. Nothing they have done thus far shows that they care even the slightest bit about the league being profitable.

Edited yesterday at 05:27 PM by Danielson

[freeze16172002]

59 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Sell the teams/franchises, take in a percentage of what the owners of the teams take in.  Leave the management of the team, within the LIV framework, up to those that own them.

 

^That is my supposition.  Clearly that plan is fraught with problems.

 

The teams become like a football club at that point.  Make us much revenue as you like, or not, but field a squad within the framework of the rules.  If you cannot you lose and get relegated.  But that means shaking themselves free of the contracts.

Buy a franchise in a league that has no network deal, no sponsors and where you are guaranteed to lose money? That has always been a farce, you couldnt give it away for free. No one is taking on that debt and future cost. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

34 minutes ago, Danielson said:

 

It will never pay for itself. The PGA Tour's TV deal wouldn't even pay the alleged LIV contracts much less the ongoing costs and purses. Whatever it is the PIF wants, it's not a profitable business running a pro golf league. Nothing they have done thus far shows that they care even the slightest bit about the league being profitable.

Then what is the objective? There's got to be some type of return even if it's not monetary. 

[smashdn]

1 minute ago, freeze16172002 said:

Buy a franchise in a league that has no network deal, no sponsors and where you are guaranteed to lose money? That has always been a farce, you couldnt give it away for free. No one is taking on that debt and future cost. 

 

You asked what the plan was.  I didn't say it was  good plan or was going to work, just what I thought it was initially.

 

Red Bull is into all kinds of stuff similar (team/franchise aspect).  For golf maybe the sponsors/owners change?  Team Cialis?  Team Merrill Lynch?

[PedronNiall]

16 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

You asked what the plan was.  I didn't say it was  good plan or was going to work, just what I thought it was initially.

 

Red Bull is into all kinds of stuff similar (team/franchise aspect).  For golf maybe the sponsors/owners change?  Team Cialis?  Team Merrill Lynch?

 

Companies only put their names on teams when there's a return to be made. As explained in detail many times in this thread the viewers the big money companies want to capture have next to zero interest in LIV. Why would they ever throw money away to have their names & logos where they'll never receive millions of dollars' worth of looks? 

 

How long do you think the marketing head who brings up buying a stake in LIV is going to have a job? There's zero data to suggest it's a worthy investment and the one and only thing big money cares about is reality.