Does offset cause bad habits?

[Rbsiedsc]

Seeing the I love offset thread got me digging into the benefits of offset as well as cons. In the end is it more helpful for golfers or does it cause other swing issues or act as a band aid for covering up swing flaws?

[WristySwing]

Offset does 2 things.  It helps square up the club head and second, it helps players who hit the ball lower benefit with a higher flight because of the artificial setback of the CG from the ball.  What swing flaws can it possibly cover up?  Everyone has a slight swing flaw, nobody is an iron byron that strikes it perfectly square with a zeroed out path and face.  I wish people would stop worrying about masking mistakes and actually play golf with the equipment that is designed to help them hit the shots they want to hit.  They would probably enjoy it a lot more.  If you have an endless amount of time to spend every week with a coach and to pound balls on the range, sure buy a small blade or a CB to learn it the hard way. I, on the other hand, am going to play a hair of offset to help me hit it a bit higher.

[pingfool]

Cause bad habits? No

Possibly help your hands stay ahead of clubface @ impact? It should. And if it does that is beneficial. 
but it is not a cure all

I find the extreme offset of the older ping wedges to be especially helpful

[Cwebb]

A potential drawback is a change in the visual perception of the face angle at address.  There can be an optical illusion with it. 

 

Small face angle changes or errors will lead to other things being affected.  Alignment being one of them

[Rbsiedsc]

5 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

A potential drawback is a change in the visual perception of the face angle at address.  There can be an optical illusion with it. 

 

Small face angle changes or errors will lead to other things being affected.  Alignment being one of them

thats my big concern. My 4i has almost 6 mm of offset and ends up very pull hooky. My brain thinks when the club is aligned properly that it is open and to the right.

[Fuscinator]

Offset = fat, in my less than humble opinion.

[Rbsiedsc]

5 minutes ago, Fuscinator said:

Offset = fat, in my less than humble opinion.

i do fat my offset clubs more than my shorter irons. interesting

[dab]

I grew up playing classic blade irons (with little to no offset) so when I actually used some offset irons i was pull/hooking everything. My swing obviously developed a preference for low offset irons, I am sure if I had started with heavy offset irons I would have grooved a different swing that works well with them. You just have to experiment with both types and see what feels best for you.

[Fuscinator]

16 minutes ago, Rbsiedsc said:

i do fat my offset clubs more than my shorter irons. interesting

Whatever amount of offset you're used to, if you suddenly have more, the clubface is going to be that much more behind from where you're used to it being. I don't understand how this isn't painfully obvious. For the same reason, when I'm meeting my wife somewhere, I always tell her a half hour before the time I plan to be there. That way, I know she'll only be fifteen minutes late. 

[Rbsiedsc]

5 minutes ago, Fuscinator said:

Whatever amount of offset you're used to, if you suddenly have more, the clubface is going to be that much more behind from where you're used to it being. I don't understand how this isn't painfully obvious. For the same reason, when I'm meeting my wife somewhere, I always tell her a half hour before the time I plan to be there. That way, I know she'll only be fifteen minutes late. 

well compared to my prior speedblade set the offset is basically matched. It could just be a swing thing for me then.

[Fuscinator]

1 minute ago, Rbsiedsc said:

well compared to my prior speedblade set the offset is basically matched. It could just be a swing thing for me then.

It could be a lot of things, for sure. 

[Stuart_G]

9 hours ago, Fuscinator said:

Whatever amount of offset you're used to, if you suddenly have more, the clubface is going to be that much more behind from where you're used to it being. I don't understand how this isn't painfully obvious.

 

While true, what isn't painfully obvious is how insignificant that extra delay really is.

 

85 mph = ~38 m/s = 38,000 mm/s

 

That means an extra 4 mm of offset adds a "delay" of  ~0.1 milliseconds.

 

Even with the faster face closure rates (2-3000 deg/sec), that very large difference in offset (4mm) would only mean about a 0.2-0.3* difference in face orientation at impact.  

 

Not enough to even notice a change in ball fight - much less cause all the hooks that people complain about.

 

And that's even assuming that we're swinging the club in a way that's completely independent of the rearward head c.g. location.  Personally, I think we swing the head c.g. and not just the shaft axis independent of that head c.g. location.   So it's more likely the delay is even less than the simple calculations show.

 

 

11 hours ago, Rbsiedsc said:

Seeing the I love offset thread got me digging into the benefits of offset as well as cons. In the end is it more helpful for golfers or does it cause other swing issues or act as a band aid for covering up swing flaws?

 

Offset is all about:

1) getting a little more forward bend in the shaft at impact - and therefore a bit more dynamic loft - because of the more rearward c.g.

2) a different visual at address that can effect the setup and level of confidence the player might have.

 

Offset might cause some small changes in the setup but they are not bad habits by any means.   Play what works best for you and don't' worry about it.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Scooby555]

I am looking at maybe a little less offset in my heads.  Will it cure a left miss, nope. 

[Fuscinator]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

While true, what isn't painfully obvious is how insignificant that extra delay really is.

 

85 mph = ~38 m/s = 38,000 mm/s

 

That means an extra 4 mm of offset adds a "delay" of  ~0.1 milliseconds.

 

Even with the faster face closure rates (2-3000 deg/sec), that very large difference in offset (4mm) would only mean about a 0.2-0.3* difference in face orientation at impact.  

 

Not enough to even notice a change in ball fight - much less cause all the hooks that people complain about.

 

And that's even assuming that we're swinging the club in a way that's completely independent of the rearward head c.g. location.  Personally, I think we swing the head c.g. and not just the shaft axis independent of that head c.g. location.   So it's more likely the delay is even less than the simple calculations show.

 

 

 

Offset is all about:

1) getting a little more forward bend in the shaft at impact - and therefore a bit more dynamic loft - because of the more rearward c.g.

2) a different visual at address that can effect the setup and level of confidence the player might have.

 

Offset might cause some small changes in the setup but they are not bad habits by any means.   Play what works best for you and don't' worry about it.

I shouldn't've used my wife as an analogy to offset. She's always late, but never fat. Fat is my objection to offset (so, "behind where", not "behind when"). The only time I don't have to worry about hitting offset fat is in a bunker. After hitting it pure, I can look up just in time to see my ball go sailing over the green.

[Stuart_G]

8 minutes ago, Fuscinator said:

I shouldn't've used my wife as an analogy to offset. She's always late, but never fat. Fat is my objection to offset (so, "behind where", not "behind when"). The only time I don't have to worry about hitting offset fat is in a bunker. After hitting it pure, I can look up just in time to see my ball go sailing over the green.

 

It doesn't really matter which "behind."  If you punch the numbers for "behind where" it wouldn't change the level of significance that the offset creates - even with a severely steep delivery.

 

So if you do hit it fat, it's because of some other change to the setup or swing that the offset might be triggering.

 

Don't get me wrong.  There is nothing wrong with not liking offset and it certainly does effect many players in various ways.  And that effect is real and important.  

 

I'm just addressing the misconceptions on why that effect happens - not trying to lessen the importance of it.

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Fuscinator]

10 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

It doesn't really matter which "behind."  If you punch the numbers for "behind where" it wouldn't change the level of significance that the offset creates - even with a severely steep delivery.

 

So if you do hit it fat, it's because of some other change to the setup or swing that the offset might be triggering.

 

Don't get me wrong.  There is nothing wrong with not liking offset and it certainly does effect many players in various ways.  And that effect is real and important.  

 

I'm just addressing the misconceptions on why that effect happens - not trying to lessen the importance of it.

 

I do get pretty steep, and I'm certainly mental. For whatever reason, offset seems to bother me less when I make more of a swing and less of a hit. 

 

Is there anything about where the weight of the head is, relative to the shaft, that makes it feel like it's going to flip over more...involuntarily(?), or is that imaginary, too?

 

 

[Stuart_G]

39 minutes ago, Fuscinator said:

Is there anything about where the weight of the head is, relative to the shaft, that makes it feel like it's going to flip over more...involuntarily(?), or is that imaginary, too?

 

There's nothing I'm aware of in the physics that would trigger that type of action during the swing (transition and/or release).   The forward bend of the shaft at impact does cause a very tiny extra amount of closure - but I doubt that's something you would feel.

 

Now it certainly could result in a very slight change in feel during transition due to the offset c.g.   Normally I would expect it to be imperceptible but it's not out of the question that it might feel a bit different.   And if there was a different feel, ones perception of that change could trigger that kind of concern even if it might not match the reality.

 

So I'll say unlikely but not impossible that it might influence things in some way.

[Fuscinator]

33 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

There's nothing I'm aware of in the physics that would trigger that type of action during the swing (transition and/or release).   The forward bend of the shaft at impact does cause a very tiny extra amount of closure - but I doubt that's something you would feel.

 

Now it certainly could result in a very slight change in feel during transition due to the offset c.g.   Normally I would expect it to be imperceptible but it's not out of the question that it might feel a bit different.   And if there was a different feel, ones perception of that change could trigger that kind of concern even if it might not match the reality.

 

So I'll say unlikely but not impossible that it might influence things in some way.

I've had all sorts of weird feelings with a variety of clubs. A lot of them are imaginary and they can happen anywhere in my swing. The fat thing with offset, though, was an after effect thought. I had some old blade style cheapos that I had pretty much learned on. After playing for about five years, I got a couple of Ping eye 2+ clubs to try before getting a whole set (this was around '97-ish).  At this point, I had never even heard of offset and had zero thoughts about it. I started hitting them fat and fairly consistently so. I don't know if it was I who finally noticed the offset, or if someone else mentioned it, but it seemed like a logical notion that the offset was causing the issue.

So, this leads me to another question - I know there are varying degrees of fat, but are there any degrees of fatness that make no appreciable difference, or does even a tiny bit fat make it undesirable?

[pingfool]

Just a thought for those who believe offset causes your hook..

I would ask you to check clubface alignment at address. You may be setting the club down closed to your target 

[rgk5]

I was a fitter for 17 years in Canada.  For most of the average middle to high handicappers, some offset is a good thing.  Typically they will stall their turn and flip their hands increasing dynamic loft and decreasing distance. The offset tends to help by reducing that affect and gives the club head a millisecond or so to make better contact. You will have noticed that many offset clubs have thicker top lines which prevents the COG  from being too low, a disaster for a flipper.

 

You would also be surprised how many Tour players prefer some offset in their irons, particularly at the top of the bag. I remember reshafting a set of Titleist irons for David Frost and his three and four irons had 3-4 mm of offset.

[pingfool]

9 minutes ago, rgk5 said:

.

 

You would also be surprised how many Tour players prefer some offset in their irons, particularly at the top of the bag. I remember reshafting a set of Titleist irons for David Frost and his three and four irons had 3-4 mm of offset.

reminds me of a story I related to at the time…

calcavecchia was struggling back in the 90s and had to have his mother airmail is ping eye2 irons because he was convinced he need the offset. 
and he played a cut with everything. 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Fuscinator said:

So, this leads me to another question - I know there are varying degrees of fat, but are there any degrees of fatness that make no appreciable difference, or does even a tiny bit fat make it undesirable?

 

Fat is really just another way of missing the center of the club face.  It's certainly a sliding scale but how it progresses depends on the person and even the design of the head or even the type of turf or ground conditions.   For some head designs (and shaft combinations), the feel can drop of very quickly - less so with other designs.   However the biggest drop off in performance will always come from when the ground contact starts to happen before the ball contact.

 

[Dpavs]

I often think that it is not the offset itself that causes most (if not all) of the issues so often complained about but the way your head reacts to the visual offset can cause huge ones.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Dpavs

[ac6]

Offset causes forum members to get into pissing matches about who hates offset the most, worst habit IMO 

[Fuscinator]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

However the biggest drop off in performance will always come from when the ground contact starts to happen before the ball contact.

 

So, it wouldn't take a whole lot of offset to make that happen, right. 

[Pepperturbo]

22 hours ago, Rbsiedsc said:

Seeing the I love offset thread got me digging into the benefits of offset as well as cons. In the end is it more helpful for golfers or does it cause other swing issues or act as a band aid for covering up swing flaws?

I have nothing against offset, just not one that uses offset, however many people do.  Most of my closest golf friends have irons with offset.  Also, certain OEM companies are notorious for offset, Ping comes to mind. 

 

IMO the only benefit for offset is if the user has trouble positioning his/her hands or getting the hands into the correct position before or at impact.  I don't believe it causes other issues, just dependency on offset.  That could be construed as masking a swing flaw to some.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[Stuart_G]

14 hours ago, Fuscinator said:

So, it wouldn't take a whole lot of offset to make that happen, right. 

 

The offset, by itself, is not what's making it happen at all.  e.g.  robot testing would not see those results at all.   It's more of an indirect result because of how you react to the offset in some way.   So how much it might take completely depends on how you personally react to the offset and how your setup and swing might change because of it.

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Leftyjoe89]

Offset is my enemy I prefer very little my natural iron flight is a draw