Has anyone actually fixed a flip? Did your scores go down?

[b.mattay]

8 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

What makes it a battle is that you're fighting against yourself, it doesn't help that instructors are teaching people to hammer square pegs into round holes. 

 

When I lived in Houston I took lessons from several driving range and club pros including Kevin Kirk and Butch. I found out later that I would have been better off doing the opposite of what they told me to do. 

Fascinating and informative! 

[BrianMcG]

13 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

You are incorrect . Turning the toe over quickly past impact is flipping , but as I clearly stated , it is DIFFERENT than the flip of club players . And Look at the below still of Brian Gay just past impact . He combines flipping with EE. If you do not consider that “ humpin the goat “ then I have no idea what you mean by EE . And Brian Gay compensates for his flippy release by playing the ball further back in his stance with irons . 

 Please ask any pro who has ready access to a Trackman , if he suggests more shaft lean for players with insufficient clubhead speed . The Trackman stats clearly and consistently argue doing so 

 

What you think a flip is, is not correct.  Realeasing the hands post impact is not a flip.  Not sure where you are getting your information from.  

[TravAz]

Yea, just to be clear, I was using the term "Flip" in the title to refer to the shaft going vertical before impact from the face on view. I'm vertical right at impact for the most part, and thus presenting too much loft to the ball. I would like to have the hands ahead, but after years of trying just about everything, I have not been able to fix it and be a functional golfer. Sure I can lean the shaft, compress the %@#% out of the ball, but I can't hit target consistently doing it. 

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, TravAz said:

Sure I can lean the shaft, compress the %@#% out of the ball, but I can't hit target consistently doing it. 

Because you likely are not doing it correctly. If your natural swing has the shaft vertical and all you do is drag the handle forward at impact to get shaft lean, you have not solved the issue

[MonteScheinblum]

On 10/5/2022 at 1:48 PM, TravAz said:

 

100% agree. It's probably a complete teardown\rebuild starting from setup\takeaway. 

 

Unlikely it’s that extreme.  Likely a setup issue or two and one offending move.

[Zitlow]

9 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

Fascinating and informative! 

 

PhDs' Sasho MacKenzie,  Dr. Kwon, Dr. Cheetham and other "science" guys can't come to a consensus on the most efficient way to create and apply energy to a golf ball which should tell you all you need to know about the current model. 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 10/5/2022 at 2:16 PM, Trippels said:

I love the metaphor and reference, but if the OP is losing, e.g. 10 SG with poor short game and putting, and only 1 with their flippy release, but otherwise solid iron play, shouldn't they be focusing on the bigger problems first?

 

But again, love the reference to statistical interpretation and its pitfalls.

[Wham49]

3 hours ago, ThePaineTrain said:

To explain I think this is a diagram of where bullets impacted a typical bomber plane returning from a mission during WWII. The engineers, seeing these impact patterns, decided to reinforce these sections of the plane. However, these sections did not actually need the reinforcement: these impacts were from planes that had made it safely back to base, but the planes that never made it back were taking impacts in the unmarked sections. Whether it's a true story or not, the moral is I think that applying the "obvious" fix might not always be the best? Tbh I'm not really sure how it applies here

ya me neither. LOL

 

I think you have the opposite thought though.  the engine is the short game and putting, the rest of the plane is the full swing, can take hits to the full swing as long as the short game is tight

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

46 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

When I lived in Houston I took lessons from several driving range and club pros including Kevin Kirk and Butch. I found out later that I would have been better off doing the opposite of what they told me to do. 

Interesting.  What was their advice, that was inapplicable to your situation?

[TravAz]

25 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Unlikely it’s that extreme.  Likely a setup issue or two and one offending move.

A live lesson with Monte has been on my list for years - I'll look you up next time I'm in your neck of the woods!

[MK7Golf21]

14 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

Why point out these pga players that supposedly flip, when it's not the same as OP flip? Why even mention it, if they are not the same? 

 

Having to allow the clubhead to get ahead of the hands to hit the ball at impact is flipping.  Does the toe turn over? Yes.  But it's the fact that you let the clubhead get ahead of your hands and have no shaft lean that makes it a flip. 

 

Your putting up stills of pga players post impact DTL, when you should be posting Face On at impact.  OP is talking about having his hands behind the ball at impact with no shaft lean. It's not even the same topic. 

 

And again never said a pro would promote more shaft lean.  I said no pro would recommend flipping at the ball regardless of clubhead speed. 

 

 

 

That is true, Tiger has pro style shaft lean and has a flip over release past the ball and is the best iron player to ever live. 

 

Here is Freddie explaining his release, Tiger is the same way.

 

 

 

[Zitlow]

3 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Interesting.  What was their advice, that was inapplicable to your situation?

 

I serendipitously met and took lessons from Mike Austin at Studio City near LA for several years. He passed away in 2005 when he was 95. 

 

Austin taught an old school motion of slinging the club around his  body on a dynamic circular plane. As he rotated the club rotated with him vs swinging the club linearly by trying to make the club swing in a line by making it conform to the static fixed plane established a address.

 

As he unwound from the ground up the club unwound in sync with his shoulders applying force to the club which was amplified by the unfolding of his right arm and hand. 

 

You can create considerably more force swinging the club in a circle vs swinging it in a line.  

 

 

 

 

 

[DLiver]

6 hours ago, ThePaineTrain said:

To explain I think this is a diagram of where bullets impacted a typical bomber plane returning from a mission during WWII. The engineers, seeing these impact patterns, decided to reinforce these sections of the plane. However, these sections did not actually need the reinforcement: these impacts were from planes that had made it safely back to base, but the planes that never made it back were taking impacts in the unmarked sections. Whether it's a true story or not, the moral is I think that applying the "obvious" fix might not always be the best? Tbh I'm not really sure how it applies here

Of course! That should have been obvious to everyone!

[DLiver]

IMO, your leaving 15 yards on the table is nothing compared to not having a razor sharp short game and putting skills if you want to play competitive golf.

[golfarb1]

2 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

That is true, Tiger has pro style shaft lean and has a flip over release past the ball and is the best iron player to ever live. 

 

Here is Freddie explaining his release, Tiger is the same way.

 

 

 

Tiger has a flip ? REALLY??

And Brian Gay does not??

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by golfarb1

[Ghost of Snead]

4 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

PhDs' Sasho MacKenzie,  Dr. Kwon, Dr. Cheetham and other "science" guys can't come to a consensus on the most efficient way to create and apply energy to a golf ball which should tell you all you need to know about the current model. 

 

So why would the random amateur pay any attention to the current "model" ?  Jones, Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus, Woods and many others did pretty well without diving into the weeds headfirst.

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, golfarb1 said:

Tiger has a flip ? REALLY??

And Brian Gay does not??

 

I said a flip over release past the ball. Yes, Tiger historically has this more down the line cross over release vs someone like Hogan’s release. 
 

Brian Gay? I never even said that guys name. I’ve never even looked at that guys swing. 
 

We are saying there is a difference between a flip before the ball with no lean and release style after the ball. 

[TravAz]

Not sure if this made the round here but crap like this with Tomas getting 25+ yards over me with a slower swung 7i drives me nuts. 

 

 

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

So why would the random amateur pay any attention to the current "model" ?  Jones, Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus, Woods and many others did pretty well without diving into the weeds headfirst.

 

They shouldn't in my opinion and neither should accomplished players with high maintenance swings. Jones, Hogan, Snead and Nicklaus had their roots in the old school swings of Vardon, J.H. Taylor, Ted Ray and others. 

 

His pivot and club are synced, as he unwinds in the downswing the club unwinds with him. Most everyone here would say he's too inside. 

 

 

 

 

[Krt22]

3 hours ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

So why would the random amateur pay any attention to the current "model" ?  Jones, Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus, Woods and many others did pretty well without diving into the weeds headfirst.

False conclusion. They didn’t get into the “weeds” because the weeds simply did not exist, they had no choice.
 

This stance is like a boomer saying they made a life for themselves without ever using a computer, therefore there is no need to use computers today.

[Ghost of Snead]

7 hours ago, Krt22 said:

False conclusion. They didn’t get into the “weeds” because the weeds simply did not exist, they had no choice.
 

This stance is like a boomer saying they made a life for themselves without ever using a computer, therefore there is no need to use computers today.

 

Do you honestly think Snead would have sat around if he played today and read the works of Nesbit / Kwon / Sasho to determine how much alpha / gamma / beta torque(s) to apply at what point during the swing ? He wouldn't, DJ and most other Tour pros don't and neither should amateurs. Find a competent instructor and video your swing to compare with others.

 

Most boomers and younger folks that use computers don't have a clue as to how they actually work and don't need to. Nor should amateur golfers when it comes to the science of the golf swing. As Monte said, fixing a flip can be done by finding and repairing the cause of the flip. 

 

 

[airjammer]

17 hours ago, TravAz said:

Was there a lightbulb moment, or just slow gradual improvement?

Slow gradual improvement and yes my scores definitely went down.
 

 I break down a solid impact position into a few points…need to have a grip that will have the face in a functional position at impact if you actually achieve the proper amount of shaft lean, your upper body needs to be low enough at impact that if you have shaft lean coming into the ball you don’t have to throw it away just to reach the ball, you must learn how to transition from front side bend to trail side bend in transition, you have to have enough GRF pressure forward at some point in the downswing. 
 

David Orr says whatever you do in your long game you will probably do in your short game so I don’t believe people realize that. Improving your long game impact position may very well have positive effects on the rest of your game. 

 

 

[Krt22]

4 hours ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

Do you honestly think Snead would have sat around if he played today and read the works of Nesbit / Kwon / Sasho to determine how much alpha / gamma / beta torque(s) to apply at what point during the swing ? He wouldn't, DJ and most other Tour pros don't and neither should amateurs. Find a competent instructor and video your swing to compare with others.

 

Most boomers and younger folks that use computers don't have a clue as to how they actually work and don't need to. Nor should amateur golfers when it comes to the science of the golf swing. As Monte said, fixing a flip can be done by finding and repairing the cause of the flip. 

 

 

We can't theorize if someone would or would not educate themselves on something that had yet to exist, very simple concept. Understanding how a computer works and simply using one are also 2 different things, but please keep on moving around the goal posts. 

 

I never said you need to understand the modern science behind the golf swing to fix a flip, but writing it off completely because the greats of the past didn't have access to it is pure boomerism. Technology exists to compliment and accelerate the human learning.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Krt22

[dvq9654]

I'm sure many people have fixed a flip, but if anyone trying to fix a flip reads this thread all hope will be lost. Run and run fast. 

[MK7Golf21]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:11 PM, Zitlow said:

 

They shouldn't in my opinion and neither should accomplished players with high maintenance swings. Jones, Hogan, Snead and Nicklaus had their roots in the old school swings of Vardon, J.H. Taylor, Ted Ray and others. 

 

His pivot and club are synced, as he unwinds in the downswing the club unwinds with him. Most everyone here would say he's too inside. 

 

 

 

 

Kwon teaches a more body swing. Doesn’t really focus on takeaway being too inside, seems to be mostly body focused and club does what it does which will naturally go in. I do agree about phd’s trying to teach golf though but at same time I think it’s interesting. 
 

I don’t think swinging the way Snead or Hogan did is easier or less maintenance than other styles, they are all difficult. It’s what clicks for you. Swinging like Snead and Hogan to a high degree really require an amazing pivot. Tons of people out there who have tried to copy their style over the years and aren’t good. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[Zitlow]

On 10/9/2022 at 12:37 PM, MK7Golf21 said:

Kwon teaches a more body swing. Doesn’t really focus on takeaway being too inside, seems to be mostly body focused and club does what it does which will naturally go in. I do agree about phd’s trying to teach golf though but at same time I think it’s interesting. 
 

I don’t think swinging the way Snead or Hogan did is easier or less maintenance than other styles, they are all difficult. It’s what clicks for you. Swinging like Snead and Hogan to a high degree really require an amazing pivot. Tons of people out there who have tried to copy their style over the years and aren’t good. 

I think Dr. Kwon is ahead of everybody else IMO because he teaches people to drive the swing using momentum

and inertia from the ground up.
 

You can make a bigger club head arc swinging the club around you than you can in front of you. The bigger the arc the more time you have to accelerate the club. 

 

Also by swinging the club in a circle you engage the anatomy trains  activating the muscles which work in opposing pairs.
 

In the downswing it’s just a matter of releasing the muscular tension that’s built in the backswing allowing the muscles to go back to a state of rest more quickly and efficiently than you can consciously swing the club. 

Anytime someone consciously adds muscular effort in the downswing they’re slowing the club head down. 

[Ghost of Snead]

On 10/9/2022 at 12:37 PM, MK7Golf21 said:

Kwon teaches a more body swing. Doesn’t really focus on takeaway being too inside, seems to be mostly body focused and club does what it does which will naturally go in. I do agree about phd’s trying to teach golf though but at same time I think it’s interesting. 
 

I don’t think swinging the way Snead or Hogan did is easier or less maintenance than other styles, they are all difficult. It’s what clicks for you. Swinging like Snead and Hogan to a high degree really require an amazing pivot. Tons of people out there who have tried to copy their style over the years and aren’t good. 

 

True ... but even if those copiers had great pivots, they would need the correct hand path and shoulder rotation to match to even get close to Snead and Hogan. 

[MK7Golf21]

35 minutes ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

True ... but even if those copiers had great pivots, they would need the correct hand path and shoulder rotation to match to even get close to Snead and Hogan. 

 

I agree, they are very hard swings to learn was my point. No easy, less maintenance way to swing really unless you are naturally gifted like John Daly.

[WHISKEYTEARS]

On 10/5/2022 at 5:45 PM, TravAz said:

I wish I was smart enough to understand this 😂🤷‍♂️

This shows all the hits on certain WWII airplanes that made it back to base. The engineers started armoring the planes in all the spots not marked in red because those hits were probably taking down planes. 
 

I don’t know what it has to do with golf, something I’m sure. 

[t91]

This is my main issue, I’ve been working on it for months and ave seen some improvement but would be interested in hearing other peoples suggestions on it.

 

I focus a lot on Justin rose drill