Considering Starting Over

[FewerThan14]

Been playing golf since I was 12, I'm 38 now. That's a couple decades+ of swing styles. I've had great years, terrible years, stretches of amazing ball striking, weird stretches of hitting only knock down shots, hooking or slicing for a few months, launching bombs for a bit then the next week barely getting the ball off the ground. I understand some of this is just the game of golf. 

I've had a few coaches/teachers, done some self exploration, countless hours of video watching and trying to apply that to driving range sessions. This year I decided to not get a course membership, but got a range membership. It's not going great, and I feel lost. When I do hit the course I'm terribly inconsistent. 

 

Have you ever considered completely starting your swing over? I honestly played my best golf in high school, basically just playing with friends and not having a care in the world. Obviously I've aged, my body has changed, equipment has changed, etc.   

I think I need to find my natural swing and hone it in from there. But my current swing is an anthology of mechanics, positions, swing thoughts, and grip changes I've accumulated over the years. 

Have you tried starting over? Any tips? Any instructors, sites, or video series you recommend? I have purchased a couple of Monte's videos in the past and I'm considering taking that road in earnest. 

I have tried lessons, but I must say overall I do not get along well with the "modern power" swing styles. I'm not a big guy, I've never been a long hitter, and I seem to not do well with "first position here, next position here, then make sure this is like that when you come through here and do that..." I feel like I'm working so damn hard throughout my swing, but with mixed results. I don't feel a need to look like Rory or Tiger or model anyone really. I want smooth and natural, a swing that I can do consistently until I'm old and too frail to walk. Other than that, I have no ego or presumptions. I'm willing to try a new grip, philosophy, instructor, whatever. I know a lot about the golf swing and I'm obsessed with golf. The hardest part will be letting go of some of that. I realize that whatever path I choose, I'll need to commit to it fully. For reference, my handicap has been as low as 7 when I played every day for a year, but realistically I'm a solid 10-12. Putting and short game is decent. 

If you had a friend that wanted to get started with golf and wanted to go from ground zero to decent, which direction would you send them?

[MPStrat]

The internet self-teaching route is the road to nowhere for the vast majority. That will put you further down the rabbit hole. Most people who buy internet instructional videos might at best get the placebo effect for a period of time but never really change what they do for the better. 
 

What you’re asking for can only be achieved with clear goals, hard work and the in person guidance of someone who knows what they’re doing. As long as you’ve been playing golf, you have hard wired motor patterns that won’t be easy to overcome but it can be done. It’s not about making your swing pretty to fit some modern ideal, it’s about improving your swing so that you hit the ball better.

 

 

[Sean124]

A friend starting from ground zero is a whole different can of worms. I think truly starting over is impossible when you’ve spent 26 years ingraining a golf swing. It’s locked into the depths of your brain. 
 

You need to find a good coach that you trust, identify your biggest flaw, and work on it. Eventually you move to the next thing to work on. Rinse and repeat. 
 

I spent over 20 years as a single digit handicap with an ugly swing who never had a real lesson. About 18 months ago, I found a coach and committed to changing things. 
 

There have been ups and downs, but always trending in the right direction. Right now I’m a +1.5. While my swing and game are much better, those old tendencies are always trying to come back. 

[North Butte]

41 minutes ago, FewerThan14 said:

I have tried lessons, but I must say overall I do not get along well with the "modern power" swing styles. I'm not a big guy, I've never been a long hitter, and I seem to not do well with "first position here, next position here, then make sure this is like that when you come through here and do that..." I feel like I'm working so damn hard throughout my swing, but with mixed results. I don't feel a need to look like Rory or Tiger or model anyone really. I want smooth and natural, a swing that I can do consistently until I'm old and too frail to walk. Other than that, I have no ego or presumptions. I'm willing to try a new grip, philosophy, instructor, whatever. I know a lot about the golf swing and I'm obsessed with golf. The hardest part will be letting go of some of that. I realize that whatever path I choose, I'll need to commit to it fully. For reference, my handicap has been as low as 7 when I played every day for a year, but realistically I'm a solid 10-12. Putting and short game is decent. 

If you had a friend that wanted to get started with golf and wanted to go from ground zero to decent, which direction would you send them?

I've only had one golf coach in my life (unless you count one single lesson I had as a beginner with a guy who left town suddenly before my second lesson) and I've got to say what you're talking about doesn't seem anything like what he's ever done in my lessons. He'll certainly show video clips of famous golfers to illustrate a specific point but never in the sense of, "We're going to try to get you to swing like this Tour player". 

 

So you've just had some bad luck, I think, with a couple of specific guys. There are plenty of teaching pros out there who want to let you swing your swing and concentrate on whittling away at certain things you could be doing better.

 

I do not, however, think that wanting to somehow unlearn or forget the swing you've been using and start from a clean slate is at all practical. You definitely ought to (IMHO) be thinking in terms of how to get from the current version of swinging like you to a better version of swinging like you.

[MikeW2]

A few weeks ago I hit rock bottom and felt lost like you do. Came on here and found the Stack and Tilt here I come thread, it made sense to me. Normally finding a coach and taking in person lessons is the way to go but life circumstances and my location make that a non-option at the moment. I decided to go with it almost as if I were completely starting over. In it is mentioned a you tube guy named Tom Saguto. He’s kind of goofy but his simplicity resonates with me. What I also like is that my body can physically do what he teaches.  Maybe it’s placebo effect, maybe not, time will tell. What I do know is that I’ve picked up about 7 yards with my irons and I am hitting it very consistently with my woods, especially driver which was the club that was KILLING me. He may not be for everyone but his videos have definitely helped me.

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, MikeW2 said:

Maybe it’s placebo effect, maybe not, time will tell. What I do know is that I’ve picked up about 7 yards with my irons and I am hitting it very consistently with my woods, especially driver which was the club that was KILLING me. He may not be for everyone but his videos have definitely helped me.

You are 2 weeks into the placebo pink cloud.

[MikeW2]

5 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

You are 2 weeks into the placebo pink cloud.

Maybe I am and admitted so in my post. I physically couldn’t swing the way I had my whole life with a driver and it was destroying me mentally. I had to try something different and that method and Saguto’s videos (I also read the Stack and Tilt book) has helped. I started first with my driver and saw positive results almost right away. So much so that I decided to use the method throughout the bag. I feel like I’m in control of my swing and couldn’t be happier with the way I’m hitting the ball.

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, MikeW2 said:

Maybe I am and admitted so in my post. I physically couldn’t swing the way I had my whole life with a driver and it was destroying me mentally. I had to try something different and that method and Saguto’s videos (I also read the Stack and Tilt book) has helped. I started first with my driver and saw positive results almost right away. So much so that I decided to use the method throughout the bag. I feel like I’m in control of my swing and couldn’t be happier with the way I’m hitting the ball.

I hope you hit it great forever. I would encourage the op to do it a better way for lasting results. 

[Nard_S]

2 hours ago, FewerThan14 said:

Have you ever considered completely starting your swing over?

Yeah, been ''starting over '' for 7 years, lol.

My take? You have 6 pairs of joints, work on each and go center out on priority. 

The swing is swaged into new moves, takes a lot of strikes, so don't waste them on bad moves and bad geometry.  Figure out good, better & best which means a conscious effort to educate the conscious and then work each pair of those joints patiently. Do that you might get somewhere. The swing is far more levered and grounded in basic geometry than is talked about. Wish I grasped that years ago.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Nard_S

[Jeri6gt]

I have had multiple different teachers and not all of them are good.

 

But I would still recommend a teaching pro over instructional videos.

[nlk10010]

The idea of starting over is very appealing. When you become frustrated by the inherent inconsistencies of golf, see others seemingly strike the ball better and get better results than you do, you start to think that if you could just find the right method or coach you could achieve what they have. You'll start looking more like a golfer, strike down on the ball, avoid the slices and hooks and fat shots that have plagued your game and finally be able  to enjoy golf, all without the struggles of learning positions and the endless ups and downs of your rounds. 

 

I know, because that's how I feel every month or so, unfortunately.

 

Starting over is a lot of work (as another poster pointed out, after a while it becomes almost impossible). You have to ingrain new motor patterns, think differently, train different muscles, and all, IMO, for very little if any gain. It will not turn out differently, I honestly believe that most methodologies, taught by competent instructors, are pretty capable of giving you a decent swing and if you can reconcile yourself to the fact that there are always inconsistencies and you will have bad and good days then the best way to progress is to keep working with what you have. Again, a competent instructor can see how you're swinging and hopefully find ways to improve it without undoing all the good work you've done in the past. I mean, do you really want to spend a year or two on what will essentially become practice? I often liken the process of learning a swing to the movie "Dead of Night"; it's pretty much a nightmare (punctuated with periods of elation), and restarting the process is the same nightmare, only in a different order and with different people playing the various roles. 

 

Good Luck.

Edited July 25, 2023 by nlk10010

[Zitlow]

Start eliminating conscious and unnecessary moving parts. You can create a lot of motion with small movements of specific areas of your anatomy.

 

All you need is one backswing trigger and one downswing trigger. Got a running start to his backswing with a forward press. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Zitlow

[ShortGolfer]

I found a simple swing for retirement a couple years ago.  I can stand over the ball with no swing thoughts and just hit the ball with a 7 iron.  It is a high fade and goes where I aim it. [as long as I don't think about trees!]

It is a very balanced rotational swing which makes it great for those days when the tee box is wet.  I can add in some weight shift for more distance or take out the rotation if I need to reliably slice the ball.

 

I'm sure it helped a great deal that I hadn't swung a club in decades!

Edited July 25, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[Hawkeye77]

Find a quality instructor and stick with it -- which is the opposite of everything you've apparently done for years.  You can't really "start over" like a beginner and I doubt trying some mind trick will get you there.  Work from what you have.  Apart from whatever is ingrained (again can't really start over) in your swing, you appear to be a serial second guesser so again, find a quality instructor and stick with it.  If you go Monte's route, I'd suggest finding your way to a clinic sometime, but sending him vids of your swing will get you some answers pretty quickly then maybe see if a live remote lesson with him is recommended.  I doubt your "anthology" of a swing looks much different now than when you say it was "natural" - and I'll bet you can improve if you work at it a bit.

[kowalgolf]

Don't start over. I started at 12 and will be 74 in Sept. Your words were like me speaking to the forum. Ditch the range membership and play golf with your friends and enjoy the company and golf good or bad. Try to execute the shot at hand to the best of your ability. Work on tempo, rhythm, and balance where you feel you make a good pass at the ball good or bad. When you feel your swinging your swing to the best of your ability no yanking, pulling etc. I would send Monte a video of your swing if your not satisfied. Training your minds eye to lock in and execute the shot at hand is a gift so enjoy the journey.

[dfeldss]

I don't know that it's even possible to "start over" if you;ve been playing that long. 

 

Your swing is hardwired into your brain right now, can't just forget it over night. Just need to find a coach you mesh with and only get your instruction from them

[grantc79]

I would basically do it like this assuming we are talking golf swing only:

 

1. Perfect your grip
2. Introduce a simple take away start
3. Perfect chipping motion checking alignments after impact
4. Incorporate weight shift (right foot arch, start backswing, left foot, start downswing)
5. Increase backswing length
6. Introduce 2/3rd shots with weight shift
7. Increase backswing length
8. Move to full swing incorporating proper weight shift. 

Learning proper weight shift throughout the swing is the game changer for many. 

 

Also get a medium thickness rope and start swinging it, it has no resistance so you have to learn how to rotate properly with it, it will not respond to your hands. 

[Kai Slater]

I started over after quitting the game and a 15 year layoff.....

 

I played a TON of golf back in the early 1990s to about 2008.  I reached the point  where I could and would shoot mostly in the 78-84 range on any given round.  I even had a few rounds of 76.  I was in my 20s and early 30s, strong, flexible, former track/field state champ, baseball player, etc....golf was "easy" for me, and I would get mad at myself when I didn't play well or hit the ball well. 

 

I took it pretty seriously until it all came crashing down one summer in Myrtle Beach.

 

Summer of 2008, I'm at my usual Myrtle Beach area courses on a golf trip, when suddenly I lost my swing, my touch, and my entire attitude/enjoyment for golf.  I could hit the ball a country mile, but began blasting it in all the wrong directions.  How about a 285 yard hook into the neighboring fairway? 

 

Or hit a decent drive, then totally air-mail the approach to the green by 30 yards, then chunk two chips trying to get  back on the green where I 3 putt?  Or, hit a 280 yard power slice into the forest OB?  Add in about 12 of the greens 3-putting, chunking chips, etc. and I end the round with a score of 101.  I did this same thing for an entire week and had a miserable trip.  My entire ball-striking spiraled out of control and I couldn't figure out why and I was too prideful and maybe "cheap" to seek help.  I'll figure this out on my own.....and I never did.  I tried every theory and swing thought you could imagine and the only  result I got was wild inconsistency.

 

I came home from Myrtle Beach and the piss-poor golf continued.  One day, after a four-man, best-ball tournament, chopping the golf ball around a "high-end" course like a total beginner, I put the clubs away and gave it up.  It just wasn't fun anymore and, at the time, with two young toddlers and a very stressful job, I wanted a break from golf.

 

I had a personal realization that, After all, golf is expensive, and why pay lots of money to just be bad at something?  From my perspective, it's not fun to play poorly.   Raising young children at the time, along with a very stressful job added to the misery.  I  wasn't going to let golf stress me out to add to my plate.

 

Anyway, this "break" from golf lasted 15 years.   No hitting balls, no driving range, not even watching any golf on TV. Like a time-warp, the entire world of golf passed me by. 

 

I was 34 when I gave it up, now I'm 50 and just now am trying to get back into the game slowly.  Now, however, I realize that I have lost my speed, flexibility, and some of the mobility that I had 15 years ago.  I'm ok with that and now have much lower expectation.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Kai Slater

[jacot23]

21 minutes ago, Kai Slater said:

I started over after quitting the game and a 15 year layoff.....

 

I played a TON of golf back in the early 1990s to about 2008.  I reached the point  where I could and would shoot mostly in the 78-84 range on any given round.  I even had a few rounds of 76.  I was in my 20s and early 30s, strong, flexible, former track/field state champ, baseball player, etc....golf was "easy" for me, and I would get mad at myself when I didn't play well or hit the ball well. 

 

I took it pretty seriously until it all came crashing down one summer in Myrtle Beach.

 

Summer of 2008, I'm at my usual Myrtle Beach area courses on a golf trip, when suddenly I lost my swing, my touch, and my entire attitude/enjoyment for golf.  I could hit the ball a country mile, but began blasting it in all the wrong directions.  How about a 285 yard hook into the neighboring fairway? 

 

Or hit a decent drive, then totally air-mail the approach to the green by 30 yards, then chunk two chips trying to get  back on the green where I 3 putt?  Or, hit a 280 yard power slice into the forest OB?  Add in about 12 of the greens 3-putting, chunking chips, etc. and I end the round with a score of 101.  I did this same thing for an entire week and had a miserable trip.  My entire ball-striking spiraled out of control and I couldn't figure out why and I was too prideful and maybe "cheap" to seek help.  I'll figure this out on my own.....and I never did.  I tried every theory and swing thought you could imagine and the only  result I got was wild inconsistency.

 

I came home from Myrtle Beach and the piss-poor golf continued.  One day, after a four-man, best-ball tournament, chopping the golf ball around a "high-end" course like a total beginner, I put the clubs away and gave it up.  It just wasn't fun anymore and, at the time, with two young toddlers and a very stressful job, I wanted a break from golf.

 

I had a personal realization that, After all, golf is expensive, and why pay lots of money to just be bad at something?  From my perspective, it's not fun to play poorly.   Raising young children at the time, along with a very stressful job added to the misery.  I  wasn't going to let golf stress me out to add to my plate.

 

Anyway, this "break" from golf lasted 15 years.   No hitting balls, no driving range, not even watching any golf on TV. Like a time-warp, the entire world of golf passed me by. 

 

I was 34 when I gave it up, now I'm 50 and just now am trying to get back into the game slowly.  Now, however, I realize that I have lost my speed, flexibility, and some of the mobility that I had 15 years ago.  I'm ok with that and now have much lower expectation.

 

 

 

I can tell nearly the exact same story...  

[Dufferonius]

16 hours ago, FewerThan14 said:

I've had a few coaches/teachers, done some self exploration, countless hours of video watching and trying to apply that to driving range sessions. ... When I do hit the course I'm terribly inconsistent. 

Your training hasn't been terribly consistent, so it's no surprise your on-course performance is, also.

 

16 hours ago, FewerThan14 said:

 

Have you ever considered completely starting your swing over?

I did.  But, I'd been playing for only a year at the time and my swing was a hot mess.  (Mainly achieved trying to learn the way you have.)

 

16 hours ago, FewerThan14 said:

I think I need to find my natural swing and hone it in from there.

That's one way to do it, but, with all the swing thoughts now baked into your head, how are you going to accomplish that?

 

16 hours ago, FewerThan14 said:

Have you tried starting over?

I didn't try, I did.  That was two years ago.  I'm still working on it.  (Not their fault.  Mine.  I took... "breaks.")

 

16 hours ago, FewerThan14 said:

Any tips? Any instructors, sites, or video series you recommend? I have purchased a couple of Monte's videos in the past and I'm considering taking that road in earnest.

I don't know what "Monte's videos" entails, but, without somebody guiding your training I find it hard to believe anything would be effective.

 

I went with on-line instruction from True Motion Golf.

 

16 hours ago, FewerThan14 said:

... I seem to not do well with "first position here, next position here, then make sure this is like that when you come through here and do that..." I feel like I'm working so damn hard throughout my swing, but with mixed results. ... I want smooth and natural, a swing that I can do consistently ...

The thing about training new swing motions is they'll feel all wrong, probably be all wrong, may feel forced and awkward, at first.  Sometimes that's just because it's new.  Sometimes it's because you're doing it wrong.  I've been in both places throughout my swing training.

 

In either case it takes keeping at it until you get the motion right, and then keep working at it until it's natural for you.  That can take, literally, thousands of repetitions of the same motion--particularly if you're trying to override an ingrained motion with a new motion.

 

16 hours ago, FewerThan14 said:

If you had a friend that wanted to get started with golf and wanted to go from ground zero to decent, which direction would you send them?

If I believed he or she was serious I'd send them to TMG.  But, it can be an arduous program.

 

E.g.:

 

I started working on the down-swing segment late last fall.  By the time the Christmas season rolled around I still hadn't got it.  I resumed in... May?  I spent another six weeks at it and thought maybe it was happening.  Then I took it outside to hit some balls.

 

Nope.  Not even close.

 

My setup, back-swing, and transition were pretty good.  I was at least getting my legs, hips, and core into it.  But, my down-swing was still mostly the same old all arms, from-the-top, way too steep swing.

 

Back inside for still more low-speed drills.  Then something clicked.  I had something of an epiphany.  That was followed by two or three more in the next two or three days.  Suddenly I achieving a down-swing that was mostly what my coaches wanted to see.  Then it was on to ingraining that--doing thousands of slow-speed drills in front of mirrors, and occasionally videoing myself to make sure I'm on-track.

 

Next week I figure I'll be ready to try hitting balls again. I'll start out doing essentially what I'm doing indoors, very low-speed swings, only with a ball in front of me, rather than a dot on the floor to simulate the ball position.  I'll do hundreds of those, occasionally videoing myself, before I even think to start ramping the speed up to a real swing.

 

Luckily, I actually enjoy training 

 

[cgasucks]

9 years ago I was ready to quit the game after shanking the hell out of my ball and chipping yips.   I was ready to sell my clubs on Craigslist until I came across Monte's videos and been following his instruction ever since.  My swing got better over the years but chipping still sucked until the pandemic came along and practiced a lot of chipping and pitching when the first lockdowns occurred.  The only course available to me at the time that had their chipping green open was a small executive course with a chipping green that had the crappiest of lies (hard pan and bare dirt).  In order to hit balls crispy and sharply on such lies, I had to get rid of the right angle of my right hand as quick as I can.  Using that method, it was stupid easy to make chips and pitches on the fluffiest of lies with tons of spin. 

 

My scores dropped like a rock after that and now shoot in the 70s using 15+ year old clubs.

 

You can do it.

Edited July 25, 2023 by cgasucks

[me05501]

I'm no pro, so caveat emptor, but I think a huge swath of swing issues can be mitigated with two simple ideas:

1. Stop trying to swing every club for its maximum possible distance. Just because your ideal picture perfect flat lie 7 iron goes 160 yards doesn't mean your 7 iron should be your 160 club. Commit to using it as your 150 yard club for a few rounds and see how that turns out. This way of thinking can help not only your swing dynamics but can do wonders for your tempo and timing. 
    
2. Accelerate through every stroke. No matter the shot, you have to accelerate the club through impact. This is super important to remember while you're implementing idea 1. Letting the clubhead slow down through the ball is a shot killer whether you're putting, chipping or hitting a full shot. You can't ever let it happen but far too many struggling players do. Take a shorter backswing if necessary but come through every shot with acceleration. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by me05501

[Kai Slater]

Who is this Monte that some of you are referring to?

[FewerThan14]

Tons of good insight here. Thanks to everyone for putting thought into this and sharing your opinions and experiences. 

I think the overall theme of it being nearly impossible to truly start over is accurate. Getting with an instructor and having a consistent training and coaching regimen would probably be the most helpful, and I'm sure a good instructor would find some positive elements in my swing. I should probably be a little gentler on myself. 

 

I've obviously fallen into the YouTube (and other media) trap of trying something briefly and being frustrated when it stops working. Also with all of the different swing strategies out there it does get confusing trying to just follow a method without additional input from someone seeing my swing. It seems like every method (stack and tilt, rotary, single plane, whatever) contradicts another method. Sometimes parts about a particular method contradicts itself from a previous part. 

Again, thanks for all the input. I think I'll press on trying to improve and working with the swing nature gave me, but I'll add some consistent lessons or coaching to improve on that. I'll also try to just enjoy playing golf and hitting the ball, which is the whole point. 

 

 

[Lobby]

You can’t start over. Your swing is you.  
 

All you can do is tweak it. 
 

oh, and go to the gym 

[jacot23]

You might be able to completely start over by switching sides.

[Nard_S]

Might be better to have mindset that there's a game rebuild and a swing rebuild. That objectives align but horizons of goals greatly differ. Neither is starting over but one can be accomplished in a year or two the other is multi-year and more like becoming a black belt. It's a martial art and should be trained with similar methodology. Game do over can be broken out in several components and if done with right approach, yield fast results. Solely doing game rebuild via swing rebuild, scores will go up, and for long time and a lot of fun leaves the course. I tried that, and don't recommend it.

[GungHoGolf]

19 hours ago, Kai Slater said:

Who is this Monte that some of you are referring to?

@MonteScheinblum 

his website and instagram

[Dufferonius]

18 hours ago, Lobby said:

You can’t start over. Your swing is you.  
 

All you can do is tweak it. 

Not true.  It may take a lot of work, probably will take a lot of work, but, it can be done.

 

18 hours ago, Lobby said:

oh, and go to the gym 

Yes.

[FewerThan14]

Little update - told my wife about this thread and my recent struggles. She brought up the fact that I've lost over 25 lbs of weight since February and wonders if that would have an effect on my swing. I'd say it's definitely possible for that to factor into my inconsistencies as of late. Something I should keep in mind as I keep grinding.

 

This week I've worked on the basics of setup, geometry, finding low point, etc.  Overall some positive things going on and I'm getting out of my mental funk. Trying to focus on enjoying the good shots. Also played a round for fun and that helped lighten things up. Shot 40 for 9 - pretty normal for me regardless of how I feel about my swing. Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

 

I also suggested to my wife that new clubs would probably help. Hard no.