Social Media Golf Is Wrong - Brian Manzella/BBG

[MPStrat]

A lot of nerd stuff to unpack from this video. I think some subtleties were glossed over in an effort to make a point in an 18 minute video but overall I thought the information was really good. . 
 

Below is what Manzella says is factually the average position of every club champion in the world:

 

 

This is what some might call 68 ballerina or “arms trailing in the sequence” 

 

My question is, do you believe Manzella’s hypothesis that this position is not in fact incorrect and that these golfers have intuitively found the best impact  for their clubhead speed? 
 

I think it’s a solid theory. However, I think what wasn’t mentioned is that many golfers do in fact need a lot more handle twist in the downswing to reduce dynamic loft. 
 

Where I agree is that I believe almost no golfers need to work on keeping the left wrist flat post impact unless they’re hitting stingers. 

[ReefDonkey]

I tried to purposely give extra shaft lean and hold the wrist angle at impact for quite awhile.  It cost me distance.  Now, if I had much higher clubhead speed it may be a better prescription for me.  Since getting off the "hold as much lag as possible" bandwagon, my shot height and distance have improved.  Weirdly enough  I had two different grips.  One for woods and one for irons.  My woods have been getting longer (probably because no tension or thinking in the shot).  Pushing 250 carry and 270+ roll with driver.  But with my iron grip, I couldn't get any more than maybe 150 total carry and roll on a 7i.  I think the overall tension of the swing and thinking too many things slowed my clubhead speed, especially with overdoing the shaft lean at impact.  My buddy said to me during a round 2 weeks ago... "Just swing it like you do your fairway woods, you're killing those.".  I ended up with a much higher ball flight and an extra club in length.  Granted, I'm now hitting fades that I didn't anticipate, but I can fine tune that.  

[MPStrat]

22 minutes ago, ReefDonkey said:

I tried to purposely give extra shaft lean and hold the wrist angle at impact for quite awhile.  It cost me distance.    

Ya that’s a recipe for stingers. 

[gators78]

I didn’t take it as anything new or earth shattering. Monte and others have explain for a while that the EE or flipping is often done from a body’s response to try and hit the ball at the target. “Holding the lag” is already on the Mt. Rushmore of terrible swing theories. I think he’s also talking to a specific subset of golfers because if you swing it 85mph with a driver as he explained in the video, probably not a good idea to get a ton of lean on it.

[MPStrat]

45 minutes ago, gators78 said:

I didn’t take it as anything new or earth shattering. Monte and others have explain for a while that the EE or flipping is often done from a body’s response to try and hit the ball at the target. “Holding the lag” is already on the Mt. Rushmore of terrible swing theories. I think he’s also talking to a specific subset of golfers because if you swing it 85mph with a driver as he explained in the video, probably not a good idea to get a ton of lean on it.

Ya he’s not talking about holding the lag here really. He mentions it briefly in passing but that’s a different thing. This is more about how forward the hands arms should be at impact. I thought it was pretty significant that he says that the arms and hands should trail more than anyone I’ve encountered. 

[Nels55]

I was thinking about posting that video here LOL.  I have heard a lot of claims over the years that the late release and "y" impact position produce tremendous club head speed and are the hallmark of good players.  Passive wrists along with using the trail biceps muscle to retain the angle until it snap releases.  Some folks have claimed a lot of success doing that so I suppose that it is just one of these things that works for some and not for others.  LOL never worked for me at any rate...

[Zitlow]

Brendan has one of the best golf related YouTube channels. He used to post here. 

[RichieHunt]

Kind of a chicken and the egg theory.  Brendon has had issues with forward shaft lean and generates pretty good speed.  More speed than say Brian Stuard.  But Stuard gets more shaft lean than Brendon.

So there's some plain ole mechanical know-how involved and a lot of misconceptions about the golf swing that cause a person to swing slower or have less forward shaft lean, etc.

 

 

 

 

RH
 

[airjammer]

I’m waiting for basically a force pressure mat for the grip. I hope someone is currently working on one because I think that would be a game changer

for golf instruction.  I think we kinda know what forces you are putting on the grip by the way the club reacts but kinda like the force plates there are some things you can’t tell by video. 
 

I think Manzella and others are correct that everyone’s body stalls in order for them to be able to square the clubface. I do find it interesting that your body chooses to do that instead of something that requires less dramatic movements like altering wrist conditions.  Early extension is hard on the body so that always been an enigma to me. 

I’ve always gravitated to handle dragging  to cheat this reaction and it’s a love hate relationship as I have the speed to pull it off but it’s feast or famine with the ball striking.  Manzella’s/Malaska’s tumble really appeals to me but it turns out to be a pull hook more often than not. I have yet to get an answer how to keep most of your flat lead wrist doing the tumble as this seems to be a wrist extension causing move.  As with most of golf instruction most people give you enough information to go down a rabbit hole but don’t really give you the “don’t even attempt if you don’t have these x’s in place. 
 

I’m curious to see what Manzella shows in the rest of the videos. 

 

 

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, RichieHunt said:

Kind of a chicken and the egg theory.  Brendon has had issues with forward shaft lean and generates pretty good speed.  More speed than say Brian Stuard.  But Stuard gets more shaft lean than Brendon.

So there's some plain ole mechanical know-how involved and a lot of misconceptions about the golf swing that cause a person to swing slower or have less forward shaft lean, etc.

 

 

 

 

RH
 

 

Yes.  I have seen a lot of discussion along the lines of ams have 'Y' impact with the arms and club shaft at impact while pros have 'y'.  The thing that I find interesting is that I don't recall ever seeing any tour pro whether short hitting lady or long drive guy who is not 'y' at impact on any normal full shot.  Some have have more shaft lean but all seem to have the lead arm and clubshaft in a straight line or maybe bowed forward a bit.

 

That fact if I am correct supports your argument and presents a bit of a problem for Manzella's argument.  LOL I tend to agree with Manzella but...

[Three_Jack]

I think what hes trying to say is that. Having little shaft lean is pretty common amongst really good golfers. As in, it's not a requirement to have 11degrees of shaft lean to play really good golf.

 

Chasing shaft lean is mostly terrible. Unless you're truly one of the -10 degrees shaft lean flippers hitting UP on irons. Then yeah, you probably need to find some intent that will get you more shaft lean cause your shot isnt functional.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Three_Jack

[MPStrat]

6 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

Kind of a chicken and the egg theory.  Brendon has had issues with forward shaft lean and generates pretty good speed.  More speed than say Brian Stuard.  But Stuard gets more shaft lean than Brendon.

So there's some plain ole mechanical know-how involved and a lot of misconceptions about the golf swing that cause a person to swing slower or have less forward shaft lean, etc.

 

 

 

 

RH
 

 

I think it a big part of it is this... 

 

The more the handle is twisted counterclockwise in the downswing, the stronger the clubface and the more shaft lean needed to start the golf ball on the planet. This can also be cheated some by making the grip crazy strong. 
 

So if you want to add more shaft lean and reduce dynamic loft, a stronger clubface is the biggest factor. If you want to reduce shaft lean, you want less handle twist and more throw.

 

There is a blend of both in all high level golf swings. There aren’t any tour players with all “throw” and no twist or all twist and no “throw”.  To be clear, when I say throw I don’t mean flexing the right wrist. 

 

 

[phizzy30]

I hit the ball high and have added shaft lean which has helped tremendously in bringing my ball flight down with irons and improving distance control.  I also take bigger divots now whereas before, my swing was very shallow where I would take no to very small divots which cost me distance and my distance control was unpredictable. 

[kowalgolf]

I like his theory. Your delivering the clubhead to the ball sooner to reach that position. You do have to apply the brakes and let the right hand takeover ala Ben Hogan, I wish I had 3 right hands. I also like his quiet hip action at impact. Good intent for me.

[nlk10010]

It is an interesting phenomenon.

 

There are people (like my "friend") who can't get any enjoyment out of a good scoring round if it involves hitting fat shots or low shots or push shots, et al. They want to hit what they consider "pretty" shots (I guess what some call playing "golf swing"). This video is about about players (also, like my friend) who can't get much pleasure out of straight reasonably long well-struck shots unless, when they video and freeze their swing at the moment of impact, they look like Milo Lines (or any player who has substantial shaft lean). If on a video they see the shaft behind the ball coming into impact they cringe; it takes the air right out of them. When you say "yes, you hit the ball a little fat and added some dynamic loft but it went straight down the middle and what is for you a good distance, and your score was pretty good" they'll respond with "Yeah, but I'm doing something wrong. I've gotta figure this out otherwise I'll NEVER be a good golfer". 🙂 

 

It takes a certain common sense to be like golfers who are scrupulous about keeping score, measure their success by how low they can go and don't give much of a rat's a** about how their swing looks.

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by nlk10010

[phizzy30]

26 minutes ago, nlk10010 said:

It is an interesting phenomenon.

 

There are people (like my "friend") who can't get any enjoyment out of a good scoring round if it involves hitting fat shots or low shots or push shots, et al. They want to hit what they consider "pretty" shots (I guess what some call playing "golf swing"). This video is about about players (also, like my friend) who can't get much pleasure out of straight reasonably long well-struck shots unless, when they video and freeze their swing at the moment of impact, they look like Milo Lines (or any player who has substantial shaft lean). If on a video they see the shaft behind the ball coming into impact they cringe; it takes the air right out of them. When you say "yes, you hit the ball a little fat and added some dynamic loft but it went straight down the middle and what is for you a good distance, and your score was pretty good" they'll respond with "Yeah, but I'm doing something wrong. I've gotta figure this out otherwise I'll NEVER be a good golfer". 🙂 

 

It takes a certain common sense to be like golfers who are scrupulous about keeping score, measure their success by how low they can go and don't give much of a rat's a** about how their swing looks.

 

 

 

That's called boring golf.  You speak blasphemy, lol.  Naw, the best golf is played when the golfer executes shots and doesn't give two s**** about how their swing looks or how far they hit their drives.  The best golfers I've played with usually have older clubs, are unassuming and don't need to brag about how awesome they are out on the course.

[Liveonce]

2 hours ago, nlk10010 said:

It is an interesting phenomenon.

 

There are people (like my "friend") who can't get any enjoyment out of a good scoring round if it involves hitting fat shots or low shots or push shots, et al. They want to hit what they consider "pretty" shots (I guess what some call playing "golf swing"). This video is about about players (also, like my friend) who can't get much pleasure out of straight reasonably long well-struck shots unless, when they video and freeze their swing at the moment of impact, they look like Milo Lines (or any player who has substantial shaft lean). If on a video they see the shaft behind the ball coming into impact they cringe; it takes the air right out of them. When you say "yes, you hit the ball a little fat and added some dynamic loft but it went straight down the middle and what is for you a good distance, and your score was pretty good" they'll respond with "Yeah, but I'm doing something wrong. I've gotta figure this out otherwise I'll NEVER be a good golfer". 🙂 

 

It takes a certain common sense to be like golfers who are scrupulous about keeping score, measure their success by how low they can go and don't give much of a rat's a** about how their swing looks.

 

 

 

Many golfers out there care about improving and working on flaws. Nothing wrong with not caring, but for competitive people I know I wouldn’t want to go out and keep doing the same stuff each time without getting better

[CasualLie]

Personally, after many years of swing exploration, instructor theories and “whatnot”. (I threw that in there because I feel whatnot is a completely stupid word)…anyways, any instructor showing static positions or a frozen static position from a video is not helping anyone.  I wish it would stop.

 

 So many golfers and instructors are discounting the importance of the momentum, and specifically the forces on the club head.  I get it, it can be difficult to measure the forces, but still, using a static position captured from a video, and telling golfers you need to get “here”, is about the worse/laziest instruction ever.

I kind of like Manzella, he’s confident, but that image to start this thread is not only garbage, it lacks the necessary context.

 

 Honestly, golf instruction (if not already there), is suffering from too much data, too much technology.  The shite I’m seeing on YouTube these days and the over complication is a f’g joke.  Bring back the days of a random field and cargo shorts.

 

[MPStrat]

31 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

I kind of like Manzella, he’s confident, but that image to start this thread is not only garbage, it lacks the necessary context.

 

In case you missed it, there is a link to a video that contains the context you’re looking for. From your post it sounds like you didn’t watch it. 

[RoyalTroon]

Manzella claims the average impact condition is based on an average using EVERY club champion in America.  Every club champion?  Seems a little boastful on the surface.   I might be able to buy a Brinks truck at Gold & Silver Pawn Shop. 

[slytown]

On 7/28/2023 at 3:01 PM, MPStrat said:

A lot of nerd stuff to unpack from this video. I think some subtleties were glossed over in an effort to make a point in an 18 minute video but overall I thought the information was really good. . 
 

Below is what Manzella says is factually the average position of every club champion in the world:

 

 

This is what some might call 68 ballerina or “arms trailing in the sequence” 

 

My question is, do you believe Manzella’s hypothesis that this position is not in fact incorrect and that these golfers have intuitively found the best impact  for their clubhead speed? 
 

I think it’s a solid theory. However, I think what wasn’t mentioned is that many golfers do in fact need a lot more handle twist in the downswing to reduce dynamic loft. 
 

Where I agree is that I believe almost no golfers need to work on keeping the left wrist flat post impact unless they’re hitting stingers. 

 

I do agree. Social media folks are usually focused on getting views and those views are based on swinging like the pros. Most people dont play xstiff shafts or can get crazy hip separation. People should be swinging within their means and one way to do that is to have a minimal amount of shaft lean that gets the ball in the air.

[Shilgy]

11 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

I hit the ball high and have added shaft lean which has helped tremendously in bringing my ball flight down with irons and improving distance control.  I also take bigger divots now whereas before, my swing was very shallow where I would take no to very small divots which cost me distance and my distance control was unpredictable. 

Why then the stories of Tiger just brushing the grass with irons?  There was recently a story Darren Clarke related of Tiger on the range for an hour and not a blade of grass was disturbed,

[MK7Golf21]

36 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Why then the stories of Tiger just brushing the grass with irons?  There was recently a story Darren Clarke related of Tiger on the range for an hour and not a blade of grass was disturbed,

yeah, shaft lean and divots don’t really correlate. Can have a lot of shaft lean and brush the grass like Tiger mentions.

[Chunkitgood]

A golf club is a tool with an optimum designed and evolved method of use.  The vast majority of people don’t use it that way, maybe this guy is right and they cannot because they lack the speed.  Probably he is right, no speed to get spin so add loft.  No surprise.  (Although I suggest they lack the speed because they have not been taught by people like him how to generate the necessary power by using the large muscles of their legs and torso.  His friend and student has 85 mph speed with driver?  Did I hear right?  Why is that?)

 

Some teachers and club pros don’t use the club the optimum way.

 

Some club champions, ditto.

 

What that means to you is up to you.

 

I played the “club champion” per this guy way for years, but unlike the club champion did not learn it as a child and never grooved it to the point he did and many others have.  I was also never as frustrated with it as he often is.

 

The right way as I get it (generally where the left arm and shaft line up after impact instead of before, and who cares or knows what happens after that) (which I learned at my relatively advanced age after a fashion after learning to use my body to generate the necessary power but which I also have not grooved, not saying I have and probably never will) I find to require less effort and to be more reliable.  Not as dead straight as my high short loft added shots used to be to be sure, but more reliable.  I believe the right way is mostly a matter of using the body correctly and your hands and arms will do what is necessary.  Like he says about Garcia.

 

I was triggered by what I see as confirmation that teachers have given up on teaching how to swing properly.  No speed, no worries.  Add loft.  If you can’t do that, get some high launch low spin clubs.  Could be wrong but that’s what I see.

Can a normal man be taught to use his body well enough to generate the power to play golf properly?  We may know when somebody competent tries to teach him.

[phizzy30]

23 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Why then the stories of Tiger just brushing the grass with irons?  There was recently a story Darren Clarke related of Tiger on the range for an hour and not a blade of grass was disturbed,

There was the interview of the Scottie Scheffler range incident with Tiger as well where he said that when Tiger hits his irons the best, he doesn't take a divot.  Scottie then proceeds to say that he thinks Tiger was messing with him.  To counter your argument, why do all tour pros take divots with their irons? 

Edited July 30, 2023 by phizzy30

[CasualLie]

3 hours ago, MPStrat said:

In case you missed it, there is a link to a video that contains the context you’re looking for. From your post it sounds like you didn’t watch it. 

 

I did watch it.  I've listened to a lot of great discussions with Manzella.  This particular one is by far his worse.  Everyone has an off day, some more than others; perhaps this was his off day.

 

I don't need a Brinks truck... I'm happy to take all of Brian's money with him betting on his ridiculous assertion.  But we will have to go to real club champions, not random internet clubs.  And what does the "average impact position" even mean?  Is there a dumber thing to talk about?  So if one club champion is 5 inches behind the ball at impact and another is 2 inches ahead, then the "average" is what he's showing?  So what.

 

Even more ridiculous is using one guy as an example with apparently better swing mechanics than Rahm but he's an 18 cap because he swings too slow to hit driver.  Uh...ok.  

 

Maybe he can blame Brandon; of all the things Brian knows and what he can talk about, this video is the worse.  It's unfortunate as Brian doesn't do a lot of social compared to others; so it's a missed opportunity.

[tthomasgolfer605]

I go on the Be Better Golf channel when I need a chuckle. 

[Zitlow]

 

11 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I go on the Be Better Golf channel when I need a chuckle. 

 

You should stick with the official GolfWRX instructor's guide on how to swing a golf club.

 

 

 

 

 

[Cwing]

1 minute ago, Zitlow said:

 

 

You should stick with the official GolfWRX instructor's guide on how to swing a golf club.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow!

[Shilgy]

12 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

There was the interview of the Scottie Scheffler range incident with Tiger as well where he said that when Tiger hits his irons the best, he doesn't take a divot.  Scottie then proceeds to say that he thinks Tiger was messing with him.  To counter your argument, why do all tour pros take divots with their irons? 

I’m not arguing…just asked the question.  And it’s more than possible based on other accounts that Scheffler was wrong.