Clubface square or closed to the intermediate target?

[Smash Factors]

This has been discussed before, but I'd like to settle this debate once and for all if possible.

 

Please make sure that you fully understand the concept before making half-baked comments like "you'll be hooking it all day", or "that's just a band aid for a bigger swing flaw", etc. I'm bringing up a legit idea as proposed by a PGA professional.

 

I would like to leave swing path itself out of the argument. For all intents and purposes, the swing path is down the line or very near to down the line. There's no need to nitpick the little nuances of swing path.

 

Like many of you, I've been aiming the irons directly at an intermediate target for well over a decade. The argument presented directly challenges the validity of doing this.

 

The argument: If you want to hit straight shots directly at your target with the irons, the clubface should be slightly closed to the intermediate target at address.

 

Here's the logic behind the argument:

• Impact position is drastically different from address position.
• A good impact position will almost always have some amount of forward shaft lean.
• Forward shaft lean at impact will almost always cause the face to open from where it was at address.
• If the face is closed to the intermediate target at address, it will square up to it at impact because of forward shaft lean.
• If the face is squared up to the intermediate target at address, you most often should end up with a push because of forward shaft lean at impact.

 

Feel free to comment and get involved regardless of your ability, but I'm hoping to get comments from skilled golfers and those who have knowledge of the concept.

 

[badboggs]

Why would you assume the face would be open at impact?  That would only be true if you pivoted the clubhead about the ball and manipulated your hands.  If you simply move the hands forward you are only delofting the club.

[KD1]

I'll throw a wrench in this. My coach has me open the face ever so slightly. I guess it would be square to an arc with a low point a few inches in front of the ball. At impact we're shooting for a few degrees in to out and a face angle half that of the path for tight push draw.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by KD1

[MonteScheinblum]

I won’t go into too many details, but nearly every time a theory has come down the pike on how to cheat the golf swing at address, it’s been an epic fail because the brain generally reverses anything you throw at it.  It’s why it takes years of experience to be a good instructor because it’s nearly always counter intuitive.. 

 

Plus, let’s take path out of the equation is a good way to suck at golf.

Edited August 31, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[ac6]

Nope, align your body and clubface to the intermediate target and allow your hands and body to square up the clubface. I get where this theory comes from. Yes, you are moving the center of your arc forward. If that were the only thing that was different about your body's position between address and impact, yes your face would be open to your intermediate target. But a look at any decent swing will tell you there's much more than that. Your shoulders and hips are rotating and likely open at impact; and your trail wrist is more extended at impact. The combination of all those factors means the face can absolutely be square at impact even with significant shaft lean

Edited August 31, 2023 by ac6

[Smash Factors]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I won’t go into too many details, but nearly every time a theory has come down the pike on how to cheat the golf swing at address, it’s been an epic fail because the brain generally reverses anything you throw at it.  It’s why it takes years of experience to be a good instructor because it’s nearly always counter intuitive.. 

 

Plus, let’s take path out of the equation is a good way to suck at golf.

 

Please just comment on the subject itself rather than generalities.

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, Smash Factors said:

 

Please just comment on the subject itself rather than generalities.

This won’t work because it’s been tried by many and it never has. 

[Smash Factors]

1 hour ago, ac6 said:

Nope, align your body and clubface to the intermediate target and allow your hands and body to square up the clubface. I get where this theory comes from. Yes, you are moving the center of your arc forward. If that were the only thing that was different about your body's position between address and impact, yes your face would be open to your intermediate target. But a look at any decent swing will tell you there's much more than that. Your shoulders and hips are rotating and likely open at impact; and your trail wrist is more extended at impact. The combination of all those factors means the face can absolutely be square at impact even with significant shaft lean

 

I appreciate your input. It just seems like anytime I apply shaft lean it directly changes where the face is pointed, and because there's so much more shaft lean at impact than at address there must be a difference. I suppose that it's possible that it's often close enough to where it was at address to not make too much of a difference.

[Smash Factors]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

I'll throw a wrench in this. My coach has me open the face ever so slightly. I guess it would be square to an arc with a low point a few inches in front of the ball. At impact we're shooting for a few degrees in to out and a face angle half that of the path for tight push draw.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm aware of that idea and have tried it many times. Some people prefer a slightly open face that naturally closes on the way in or stays open for a fade if that's how you're doing it.

[Smash Factors]

2 hours ago, badboggs said:

Why would you assume the face would be open at impact?  That would only be true if you pivoted the clubhead about the ball and manipulated your hands.  If you simply move the hands forward you are only delofting the club.

 

It's well known that forward shaft lean will open the face. You can try it next time you have an iron in your hand. Just address the ball and move the hands forward a little bit and the face will open up. Moving the hands forward does more than just deloft the club.

[Smash Factors]

7 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This won’t work because it’s been tried by many and it never has. 

This is more of what I'm looking for. Someone who actually knows something about it and has some experience with it.

 

When I address the ball with let's say and 8 iron, the face just naturally want's to sit a bit closed. Grip is fairly neutral, but maybe 1 or 2 knuckles. I always have to tinker around with ball position and shaft lean at address to get it squared up. That's why this idea of keeping the face a bit closed interests me. Makes me wonder if a closed face actually isn't a bad thing.

[nkurz]

3 hours ago, Smash Factors said:

Like many of you, I've been aiming the irons directly at an intermediate target for well over a decade. The argument presented directly challenges the validity of doing this.

 

I think I disagree with some of your assumptions, but here's one more to add to your list of why this might make sense:

• Toe droop caused by centrifugal force will cause a lofted club to act like it is more open and lining up closed will counteract this.  Fast swingers with softer flexes will need to adjust more for this.  

My personal belief though is that the difference between address position and impact position varies so much golfer to golfer that there is no universal rule that can be established here.  

 

Also, why do you differentiate between "intermediate target" and "target"?  Seems like an unnecessary complication unless you are presuming a fade or draw.  

Edited August 31, 2023 by nkurz

[ShawLF]

30 minutes ago, Smash Factors said:

anytime I apply shaft lean it directly changes where the face is pointed, and because there's so much more shaft lean at impact than at address there must be a difference

true, all things being equal simply leaning the shaft forward can close the face; however, that's not the only change to the club. Try this: go into an impact position with shaft lean. Add more trail side bend (not tilt but thoracic bend / tilt your shoulder plane more towards the ball) and look at what happens to the face... it opens.

 

Also, the club face closes as it moves through the hitting area. At address the club is behind the ball. At maximum compression, the club face would be into the ball around 1/4". All things being equal, the face will close over this distance and it will be too closed. For this reason alone the face should be marginally "open" at address?

 

However, the face opens something like 180* during the swing - about 120* of this is due to rotating the shaft. if someone has problems squaring the face, maybe they would benefit from "pre-closing" the face. As Monte states this could cause the player to make other compensations that make things even worse.

 

 

[Petethreeput]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimflick_0707/amp
 

The quote in the article is Jack Nicklaus saying he has never seen a good ball striker who addresses the ball with a square or closed club face.

[ReviellGolf]

34 minutes ago, Smash Factors said:

This is more of what I'm looking for. Someone who actually knows something about it and has some experience with it.

 

When I address the ball with let's say and 8 iron, the face just naturally want's to sit a bit closed. Grip is fairly neutral, but maybe 1 or 2 knuckles. I always have to tinker around with ball position and shaft lean at address to get it squared up. That's why this idea of keeping the face a bit closed interests me. Makes me wonder if a closed face actually isn't a bad thing.

Are you expecting us to have a "all other things equal" mindset when responding? Whether the clubface opens or closes when you shaft lean will depend on how each person is shaft leaning. If you are shaft leaning with your hands directed at the target so that the shaft is paralell to the target line then yea your clubface is going to be open. For me? When I shaft lean, my hands are somewhere closer to my hip so that my clubface delofts and sits neutral. Even more, when I swing, if i'm not careful my clubface closes with too much shaft lean.

 

Of course, not everyone has the same swing or hand positioning. Not everyone has the same alignment. some pros lineup slightly open, some straight on. Most good players with good coordination or a little athletism will have ingrained a way to square up regardless of alignment. 

 

Personally, I like to see my clubface open at address. 

 

 

[eht8266]

Maybe take a look at Shawn Clement - Wisdom in Golf

 

what he describes makes sense.

[Smash Factors]

12 minutes ago, eht8266 said:

Maybe take a look at Shawn Clement - Wisdom in Golf

what he describes makes sense.

Thanks for posting this. Not a huge Clement fan though. I get lost in his explanations and to me he has a ridiculous looking swing. Can't really take him seriously.

[Smash Factors]

3 hours ago, Petethreeput said:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jimflick_0707/amp
 

The quote in the article is Jack Nicklaus saying he has never seen a good ball striker who addresses the ball with a square or closed club face.

Simply not true though, right? There's way too many scratch golfers out there for all of them to be playing from an open face.

[Valtiel]

The issue with the argument IMO...
 

 

Quote

 

The argument: If you want to hit straight shots directly at your target with the irons, the clubface should be slightly closed to the intermediate target at address.

 

Here's the logic behind the argument:

• Impact position is drastically different from address position.
• A good impact position will almost always have some amount of forward shaft lean.
• Forward shaft lean at impact will almost always cause the face to open from where it was at address.
• If the face is closed to the intermediate target at address, it will square up to it at impact because of forward shaft lean.
• If the face is squared up to the intermediate target at address, you most often should end up with a push because of forward shaft lean at impact.

 

....is that for this to be true you would have to remove so many human variables as to make the conclusion only applicable to robots and a very small minority of golfers. Face orientation at address alone does not have a great correlation with face orientation throughout the swing. Measure a statistically significant sample size of varied skill level golfers and you'd likely find that address face orientation gets fairly consistently overridden at various points in the backswing (probably most of them by P2). With how many factors there are determining clubface orientation throughout the rest of the swing, presetting a couple degrees one way or the other at address is just going to get fed into that set of variables and disappear. And if the argument is that the preset face orientation is maintained throughout the backswing (2* shut face angle at address -> 2* more shut at P2 -> 2* more shut at P5) then you're introducing a ton of other variables that make the results muddied and unuseable. 

 

[GungHoGolf]

6 hours ago, Smash Factors said:

Simply not true though, right? There's way too many scratch golfers out there for all of them to be playing from an open face.

Good luck finding one elite golfer (not “scratch”) who addresses the ball with the face closed to the intended start line. 

 

There are countless elite golfers who address with a slightly open face.

 

If you want to buck that trend, more power to ya. 

[Mitchell]

Simply cannot eliminate idea of face to path and angle of attack, since golf swing is a dynamic combination of movements. The idea of an intent to introduce shaft lean and a compensatory face angle change at address independently of other athletic motion as opposed to a natural result of said motion has lead many players down an unintentional rabbit hole that leads to paralysis by analysis and poor performance and inefficiency, in my opinion. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Mitchell

[ac6]

10 hours ago, Smash Factors said:

 

It's well known that forward shaft lean will open the face. You can try it next time you have an iron in your hand. Just address the ball and move the hands forward a little bit and the face will open up. Moving the hands forward does more than just deloft the club.

 

Forward shaft lean opens the face, trail wrist extension (or lead wrist flexion) closes it. I'm just really struggling to imagine a way you're getting hands in front of the ball at impact while having already dumped all the wrist angles way earlier. 

[ShawLF]

49 minutes ago, Mitchell said:

Simply cannot eliminate idea of face to path and angle of attack, since golf swing is a dynamic combination of movements.

 

@Mitchell is 100% correct. I was thinking about this more last night. Seems the confusion around this topic probably comes from analyzing the swing in 2-D, and not considering the fact that the club is swung on a 3-D plane.

 

I’m going to define a “straight” ball flight as starting to the right and then landing on the target line, with a curve of around 1 yard.

 

With an 8i, the swing dynamics to achieve a “straight” shot are approximately:

swing direction: -2* (left)

swing plane: ~ 60*

angle of attack: -4 to -5* (down)

low point: +4” (ahead of the ball)

face angle: +2* (right)

club path: +4* (right) 

 

Note: club path is a bit of a red herring because it is a byproduct of swing direction, low point and AoA. To have a different club path would require changing swing direction, low point, and/or AoA.

 

To steel man @Smash Factors point of view, there is a case where a square club face comes *very close* to producing a straight shot: the putter. If the putter had a 90* lie angle, then zeroing out swing direction and face would produce a perfectly straight shot because the start line would be 100% caused by face angle. But even with the putter the face only accounts for 90% of the start line because it is swung on a 70* plane.

 

If the putter is close to fulfilling this idea of a square face, then adding downward AoA means it is completely untrue for irons.

 

Here's a quick explanation of swing direction and how to dictates club path.

 

 

[bladehunter]

Can’t  really take path out.  There’s a million ways to do it.  
 

have you ever hit the hooded face ( from address ) fade ?   Or the open faced hook ?  Then there’s the old “ aim the face at the target “ 60 yard rope hook.   
 

monte is right above. The brain will do things to the path and hands that you can’t account for. You have to practice each and know what YOuR brain tends to do. There is no right answer. Some are open faced players. Some shut.  You have to know you.  I’m an open faced player. Open looks square to me. Square looks way shut.  If you make me play it square or shut , I’ll hold on and block everything off the planet.   But I can play a square face and fade it. Lol. Why ? Because the toe won’t shut to path.  

[Nixhex524]

13 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I won’t go into too many details, but nearly every time a theory has come down the pike on how to cheat the golf swing at address, it’s been an epic fail because the brain generally reverses anything you throw at it.  It’s why it takes years of experience to be a good instructor because it’s nearly always counter intuitive.. 

 

Plus, let’s take path out of the equation is a good way to suck at golf.

 

This.. LOL   You can not just pretend path doesn't matter when talking about where the club face is at impact.  

 

With a 2* closed face and a 5*  I/O path, chances are a draw that is somewhat in the middle of play.

Take a 5* O/I with the same face angle and again, good chance it's a dead pull hook.

 

Path AND face angle at impact are just about every reason for why the ball does what it does.

 

*Edit....  posted without reading the many responses that touched on this already....

Edited August 31, 2023 by Nixhex524
skipped ahead

[TLUBulldogGolf]

I don't think your setup can even be so precise that you know you are aimed slightly closed to an intermediate target with the clubface. Maybe if you exaggerate it, but it's still going to have variation. 

 

For me the intermediate target is in line with the intended target, wherever that may be. I like to feel the clubface looks square (to me) to slightly open at address (I play a draw naturally). But there are without doubt variations with that and my subconscious does what it needs to do to hit the ball to the target, with my setup I'm looking to put myself in what I feel is the best position to allow that to happen consistently. If the clubface is shut I know there are going to be compensations to keep the face from being closed at impact or the ball is starting left and probably curving left. This is where eliminating path from the equation seems like a bad idea.

 

Assuming your mechanics are fairly sound and you are a decent striker, your brain is going to figure out what to do to correct for whatever opening leaning the shaft does. If closing the face seems to help you with hitting it straighter so be it, but I don't agree that it's a necessity. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by TLUBulldogGolf

[KMeloney]

15 hours ago, Smash Factors said:

Forward shaft lean at impact will almost always cause the face to open from where it was at address.

 

How is anyone arriving at this premise?

 

Go try it. Rest an iron on the ground, square to the target. The only ways to move the handle forward and get the face to open is to also move the handle toward the target line (away from you), or to also twist the shaft clockwise, or both. I do none of those things in my golf swing.

 

Maybe the premise is based on what the average mediocre golfer typically does. But, from what I see, the mere act of moving the handle ahead of the club head does not cause the face to open.

[ShawLF]

28 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

I like to feel the clubface looks square (to me) to slightly open at address (I play a draw naturally)

Do you feel that your club face is more "open" on wedges vs. a 4i at address?

 

Per my post above path is a byproduct of swing direction, AoA and low point. Assuming a constant swing direction, a wedge ball position is farther back and swing plane and AoA are steeper (making path more to the right), so the face must be more open at impact to hit a straight shot vs a 4i.   

[getitdaily]

It can be done and be done effectively. 

 

Really all depends on what you do from that setup position. 

 

Buy know this, with the face pointed left at address, you're likely to.compensate with path extremes...

 

Ball going left, you'll think to swing in to out more if you're a drawer. You'll think to pull harder left and hold the face open if you're a fader.

 

You'll probably add in other compensations in setup that you fond to work. But you'll also start to deviate from standard ranges of positions that you'll have to manage.

[ShawLF]

5 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

But, from what I see, the mere act of moving the handle ahead of the club head does not cause the face to open.

correct, it is other motions that cause the face to open... being more shallow, more right side bend/body more open, etc.