Taking Lessons to the Course

[chern92]

I am four weeks into a one year program at the golf academy. It was a big commitment looking to improve my game as I moved somewhere which I can play year round for the first time ever. 

 

We are working on a significant change. My biggest issue was active hips and my upper body spinning out, then my arms hanging on for the ride. I was 7* out to in and 7* down with irons, 0* with driver. The fix we are working on is shortening the swing, a move off the ball in the backswing, then the feel of covering my trail side as my arms go through quicker. It has got me zeroed out and sometimes even 1* in to out. 

 

I am very happy with the improvements (after on the left, before on the right). However, none of it - at all - translates or carries over to the golf course and I feel guilt. I have played six rounds the last three weeks and failed to break 100 in each. 

 

On one hand, I am paying a lot of money for lessons, and working hard to change and get better. I should be working towards implementing the swing. 

 

On the other hand, it costs $55-$60 to play per round, and using the new swing makes it a miserable experience, as at the moment I am 20 strokes per round better with my old crappy swing. 

 

Has anyone else suffered through similar? How did you manage it, and how did you keep your mind from thinking 100 things per shot and ruining the round? 

 

[larrybud]

How many lessons have you had in the 4 weeks, and how many times have you practiced during this time?

Also, about how many things does your instructor try to change in 1 lesson?

[chern92]

38 minutes ago, larrybud said:

How many lessons have you had in the 4 weeks, and how many times have you practiced during this time?

Also, about how many things does your instructor try to change in 1 lesson?

Lesson every Wednesday. Practicing or playing 3 other days per week. So a good four days per week, sometimes five. 
 

In four lessons total we’ve tried to change 2-3 things combined. 
 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

My opinion only here.

 

I’m not big on working on more than one thing at a time, excluding setup.

I’m also not big on lessons every week.  It’s why I have a platform where you can have a quick check-in between lessons.  It takes way longer than a week for motor pattern to to have any significant movement.  

You don’t really “Take changes to the course.”  You gradually change your motor pattern on the range and it filters in to your course swing over time.  
 

4 weeks is not close to enough to see changes on the course.  It’s good you see visible changes on the range, but it takes months for the new pattern to overtake the old one.  It’s like losing weight and getting fit.  In 4 weeks, unless you’re on some Uber elite fitness regimen (being at the golf course 40-60 hours a week equivalent), you’re not going to reshape your body.  You’re not going to go from the “Dunlop’s” to a 6 pack in 4 weeks, but you can lose 10 pounds.  You’re not going to go from getting gassed on a mile run to running a marathon in 4 weeks, but you can increase from 1 mile to 2 miles.

 

[chern92]

18 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

My opinion only here.

 

I’m not big on working on more than one thing at a time, excluding setup.

I’m also not big on lessons every week.  It’s why I have a platform where you can have a quick check-in between lessons.  It takes way longer than a week for motor pattern to to have any significant movement.  

You don’t really “Take changes to the course.”  You gradually change your motor pattern on the range and it filters in to your course swing over time.  
 

4 weeks is not close to enough to see changes on the course.  It’s good you see visible changes on the range, but it takes months for the new pattern to overtake the old one.  It’s like losing weight and getting fit.  In 4 weeks, unless you’re on some Uber elite fitness regimen (being at the golf course 40-60 hours a week equivalent), you’re not going to reshape your body.  You’re not going to go from the “Dunlop’s” to a 6 pack in 4 weeks, but you can lose 10 pounds.  You’re not going to go from getting gassed on a mile run to running a marathon in 4 weeks, but you can increase from 1 mile to 2 miles.

 

Thank you for the reply. What is your advice for continuing to play and enjoy the game without feeling guilty of using the “old swing” on course to avoid a miserable experience with the new swing I am working on? I feel like I am wasting lessons if I go play and don’t actively try to do the things I’m working on with every shot…but it’s unplayable. 

[getitdaily]

Just keep at it. Add at least 1 more range day and 1 less play day. It takes time. Keep doing the drills but when you play don't do them on the course...just swing away. 

 

Eventually your drill and practice work will show up on the course. 

 

As long as you're working on the right things, it just takes time to ingrain even the smallest changes.

 

[phizzy30]

I was 8* in to out many years ago and my teaching pro got me to 2-4* in to out by changing my setup, back swing downswing so it was a major overhaul.  I didn't feel comfortable with the changes until about 3 months in.  6 months to finally have everything click.  My advice to you is to keep at it.  The first couple months will be miserable, but as long as your forcing your brain to develop the new motor pattern and having it transfer into muscle memory, you will see improvement over time.  It took Tiger a good 6 months to a year every time he overhauled his swing to see the work pay off in tournaments.  In the meanwhile he played like **** and missed cuts but always ended up making the necessary changes.   

Edited November 21, 2023 by phizzy30

[MBAndrews21]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

 

I’m not big on working on more than one thing at a time, excluding setup.

 

A little bit off topic, but I know that you don't encourage "swing thoughts" on the course. Do you think it's worth focusing on setup on the course?

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, chern92 said:

Thank you for the reply. What is your advice for continuing to play and enjoy the game without feeling guilty of using the “old swing” on course to avoid a miserable experience with the new swing I am working on? I feel like I am wasting lessons if I go play and don’t actively try to do the things I’m working on with every shot…but it’s unplayable. 

This is where golfers get themselves in trouble with swing changes in two ways.

 

Let’s put quantitative measure on this.

 

Let’s say the swing before the lesson is a 1 and your ultimate best with your skill and ability to put time in is 100.

1.  They take an extreme change (I only like one at a time) to the course immediately and play badly. One of two things comes to mind.  1.  This doesn’t work.  2.  The old cliche, “You have to get worse, before you get better.  Both terrible.  You can’t take a full movement pattern change to the course, when you’ve been working on it a short time.  This is where Palmer’s “Swing your swing” comes in.  Just hit the ball at the target with one trigger feel that gets you moving.

 

2.  You’re not actually taking your old swing to the course.  After 4 weeks, your “old swing” is no longer a 1….it’s now about a 15-18, you just don’t know it.  The movement pattern work you have put in on the range has moved the needle.  So the feel of the same swing is actually 15-18 points better.  2 months later, it’s probably a 40.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, MBAndrews21 said:

A little bit off topic, but I know that you don't encourage "swing thoughts" on the course. Do you think it's worth focusing on setup on the course?

For sure.  

[Chunkitgood]

You should seriously consider not going to the course at all until your swing has become embedded in implicit knowledge.

 

Performing a skill in a new or different context is itself a new skill that requires its own process of learning, but that will happen as a practical matter only if the basic skill has been learned.  Think of it as trig being a prerequisite for calculus.  You can learn calculus without having studied trig and learn trig in the process of learning calculus but it’s a lot harder, so much harder that you may never do it.

 

 

[bluedot]

Fwiw.

 

In late 2019 at age 67, I did a complete swing rebuild with a top-shelf teaching pro.  I didn’t play a single round for six full weeks, and I backed out of a half dozen or so tournaments and trips that I had planned.  I didn’t play a competitive round for 3 months.  I play about 160 rounds a year typically, and 20-25 tournaments, so that sore of a shutdown was a BIG deal for me.
 

The reason was simply that my instructor and I agreed that trying to shoot a score would get in the way of the changes we were making.  In the meantime, I hit a zillion practice balls, with video, etc.  I didn’t play again until I “sorta kinda” was making a swing without having to think about it quite so hard.

 

Even then, it took a long time for everything to fit together; at least 6 months?  The rewards have been all that I had hoped, and I enjoyed the process and the practice; always have.  But it just takes time and reps to make significant changes, and I think keeping score can interfere with that early on.

[ShortGolfer]

Being able to do something new without thinking about it is a good place to reach.

 

Is there a cheap course you can play?  I did a major swing change this year and decided to stick to playing on a cheap executive course while I improved my ball striking over a couple months.

 

I am used to learning lots of stuff at the same time.  Work pretty much demanded it.  Now that I'm retired it is a useful skill.

I'm very good at managing expectations when I'm doing that.

Playing golf is often a good way of doing a mental reset for me.

Edited November 21, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[nlk10010]

Ingraining a motor pattern means being able to repeat the pattern without thinking (IMO). Clearly, that takes a long time.

 

Look, there's theoretically no reason you can't do, on the course, exactly what you did on the range, provided: 1. It's the same surface (grass vs mats), 2. It's the same lie; i.e. it's as flat on the course for each of your shots as it is on the range, 3. You're thinking of exactly the same thing on the course as you are on the range. 4. You aren't trying to hit a target on the course (like on the range). 5. You have absolutely no pressure to rush your shot or make a score on the course (like on the range). 

 

As dumb as the above sounds (and I'm an expert on dumb golf advice) my point is that while you want to think the differences between the course and range are small, they are huge. Particularly what's going on in your mind. So you absolutely cannot expect to be able to realize the full effect of your range work right away, your new motor patterns need to be something you don't have to think about so that you can concentrate on all the other things you need to think about.

 

As Monte said, when you play for real and use your "old" swing you're not really using your old swing. You're using a convex combination of your old and new swing, even without consciously trying to implement the latter. The more you play, the closer it's weighted towards your new swing. I'd be happy I've decided to work towards a new swing and enjoy my time on the course. You will be making progress. You need time off from work and you need to enjoy yourself, otherwise, what exactly is it that you're working towards? If you don't want to play a "regular" course then, as was suggested above, use a cheap 9-hole. I have one near my house that costs $9.00 per round (there are benefits to being old and decrepit). Think of it, if you want, like a "grass driving range".

 

 

[Sp4zRX]

I have found playing a practice round, ideally, each week makes a big difference. Although, the reality is I can usually only do it 1-2 times a month. I go to a local course where I can walk 18 for $26 and usually get out as a single during the week. The first 9, I practice. I will hit two tee balls with two different clubs and play those balls in. I will also drop like 6 balls from a distance, say 150 yards, and hit the balls into the green using two different clubs like an 8i and 6i. When I get to the green, I often just pick up the balls and go so I can keep up with pace-of-play. It really helps translate that range experience to a real fairway where you are hitting into a real green. Just make sure you are never causing people behind you to wait!
 

Back 9… One ball, every swing counts, play your game. Of course, you can mix it up however you want based on what you feel you need to work on. You just don’t want to train yourself to rely on the fact you always have a redo on tap. 
 

[bortass]

My experience is different than @bluedot's but I am not a competitive golfer and never attempted to rebuild my swing. I'm just a hacker trying to get better. I mention this only because there is no true right versus wrong. Some paths are better than others, some can be detrimental, but there is not only a single path to the promised land, there are many.  You gotta find what works for you.

 

For me, it has always been smaller changes over time to try and improve my swing/contact. More along the lines of what Monte describes. That pattern has worked for me over the years and I stick with it. The hardest part is not playing golf swing when I am on the course. I struggle with not actively thinking about 'do this and that' based on what I am working on. I have noticed that my better rounds are when I just swing the damn club and don't worry about how I swing the stupid thing.

 

You also need to set your expectations realistically. Magic does not happen over night, sure you may catch lightning in a bottle for a round but don't feel bad if it's gone the next time you play, lol. Getting better is all about the long term trend just like Monte wrote. There will be ups and downs which is fine, just realize it and don't go off the rails when you hit a bump in the road. This is a process.

 

Lastly, we play golf on the course. The father of a friend of mine told me once when he saw me on the range 'you need to play more if you want to get better'. He wasn't wrong. Playing golf is not just about your swing. It's the decisions, different lies, good and bad bounces, etc that lead to a number on the scorecard. Our swing is a key component to scoring but you can have a great swing and play golf poorly. Don't get me wrong, an improved swing makes it easier to play better but it is not a given,  so don't get hung up on the score you just shot. Go out, play, and have fun. 

[596]

Over the past year I've been working on the hip turn. Also a lot on chipping.  I've hit thousands and thousands of balls on the range as well as the chipping green. But I still reverted to either the old swing or a reliable chip when playing on the course for a score the first months! I found the only way to get the range to the course is not to keep score when taking it to the course.  Then when keeping score, I know I've been there and can hit the new shot on the course. Sounds totally silly but it works. I play 3 days a week on the course but only keep score twice.  The third day on the course is a practice round where I take new things to the course and try different shots then I would if I was keeping score. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by 596

[ferrispgm]

From experience, I strongly suggest you heed @MonteScheinblum's advice.....It takes time.  Normally I practice only on the weekends.  Either hit balls for a few hours each Sat/Sun or play Sat and hit balls Sunday with maybe some holiday mid-week work here and there.  No joke, it takes me a year to see a noticeable difference in the swing.  On the course, each round trends better with ball striking.  Usually the first round or two are pretty solid then the real work begins as you start fighting going back to bad habits.  Round 3 I will hit maybe 1 or 2 really solid shots.  Round 5 maybe another 1 or 2.  Round 12 may hay have 9 good holes.  Round 20 maybe 12-15 good holes and misses are smaller, etc.  Along the way you will have worse rounds and maybe some horrible rounds but the general trend is up.

[ShortGolfer]

I try to practice when the course is empty.  Which is usually in the middle of the day on weekdays.  The regulars get in their early morning rounds and more folks play in the afternoons.

But I've also had a bunch of great rounds with random partners this year.  My game has gotten good enough to interact with other golfers and still hit great shots.  Lot more work though.

 

I had a great round yesterday despite the cold and windy weather.  I got some extra bunker practice. 

I had some trouble because I was very close to a high lip.  Found I needed to open the face of a 58 to get it out.

Normally I wouldn't have time but there were only a few of us on the course.

[Pepperturbo]

Progress & adjustments take time and patience.  It's not unusual for someone to think they are not progressing and feel frustrated, then suddenly what has been practiced kicks in. 

 

I do NOT get into mechanics during a game.  I do, however, give conscious thought to my setup and take-away every time I am over the ball.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[MountainKing]

I've had small changes take upwards of a year before they fell good/right.   You're working on several big things, so way more than 4 weeks!

[MonteScheinblum]

Here’s the problem.  The whole narrative in golf at large is awful.  When this has been discussed before, certain unnamed “experts” say that its instructor speak to say it takes time and change should happen immediately.  
 

Well, the swing should visually look different fairly quickly (within a few swings when you find the right concept) and tech numbers should be better immediately if the change is correct, but for that new movement to replace the old pattern takes months, even over a year.  Ask Tiger, ask Jason Day and their swings are already functional and they practice 40-60 hours a week.  
 

Quote from Tiger on 6 steps

 

1.  Identify issue

2. Make it look better

3. Then it feels better

4.  Then you hit it better

5. Then you hit it better on the course

6.  Then you hit it better on the course when it means something

 

Golfers and know it alls think steps 2 and 3 are irrelevant and step 5 should follow quickly.

 

Thats why everyone complains “this feels weird” and question why the very first attempt at a new movement is a mishit and why any subsequent misses are happening.

 

Here’s how bad that narrative is.

 

I suggested “this feels weird” and not hitting a great shot on the first attempt are the biggest reasons golfers never get better.

 

I posted this in a Facebook forum entitled “Golf Teaching Professionals” and got destroyed by at least a dozen posters saying, “If it feels weird, you’re telling them the wrong things and if their strike and dispersion doesn’t improve within the first 10 shots, it’s ineffective.”

 

That delusion is why the USGA stays that you don’t improve after playing 3 years came about and is also false.
 

How stupid would I sound if I said….”I’m 240, I had a salad for lunch and ran on the treadmill for 30 minutes and I’m still 240.”  Then a few weeks later said, “I’ve been eating better and doing 30 minutes on the treadmill a few times a week and I still can’t get from my 38 pants into 32’s.”

 

No one says that but that’s how WE golfers sound.  I’ve been guilty too.  
 

Then our pattern is, “This doesn’t work, back to YouTube.”

This is not just my opinion, Butch Harmon talks about it all the time.

 

”A 25 handicap hits a small bucket and comes to me and says, “Butch, this doesn’t work.””

 

[kiwigolf72]

6 hours ago, 596 said:

Over the past year I've been working on the hip turn. Also a lot on chipping.  I've hit thousands and thousands of balls on the range as well as the chipping green. But I still reverted to either the old swing or a reliable chip when playing on the course for a score the first months! I found the only way to get the range to the course is not to keep score when taking it to the course.  Then when keeping score, I know I've been there and can hit the new shot on the course. Sounds totally silly but it works. I play 3 days a week on the course but only keep score twice.  The third day on the course is a practice round where I take new things to the course and try different shots then I would if I was keeping score. 

what's the worst that could happen by taking it to the course and keeping score? you shoot a higher that usual number and your HC might go out a little to reflect your current game.

Once you make the changes and they are embedded you start playing well and your HC reflects your new and improved swing.

[hanginnwangin]

Monty is straight spittin' facts in this thread.

[596]

1 hour ago, kiwigolf72 said:

what's the worst that could happen by taking it to the course and keeping score? you shoot a higher that usual number and your HC might go out a little to reflect your current game.

Once you make the changes and they are embedded you start playing well and your HC reflects your new and improved swing.

I agree but most people always want the lowest score.  Reverting back to old habits etc under pressure.  The one day I play each week is a money game. Not trying anything new when money is on the line. The other is a round I try to go low with no pressure. The third is the practice round where I try new shots or shots I don't normally hit. 

[GoGoErky]

3 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

if the change is correct, but for that new movement to replace the old pattern takes months, even over a year.

And it’s not just golf. You had to deal

with it when learning to walk again and it’s the same for someone trying to fix a bad squat or deadlift pattern or other movement. Have to develop the me pattern from closed loop to open loop. Can’t become natural til it’s trained properly

[ShortGolfer]

14 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

And it’s not just golf. You had to deal

with it when learning to walk again and it’s the same for someone trying to fix a bad squat or deadlift pattern or other movement. Have to develop the me pattern from closed loop to open loop. Can’t become natural til it’s trained properly

I am an expert on this.  I was in the rehab ward of Hartford Hospital working with a PT, OT, and Speech therapist for a whole month.  While I was in there I had plenty of time to observe fellow patients recovering from major injuries.  After two months of outpatient therapy I was on my own, but continued to improve without the assistance of therapists, though assistance from trained medical professionals would have been much better.

Edited November 22, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[iacas]

I tell my students that if they go home and try to brush their teeth left-handed, it's going to take awhile to do it as well as you did before.

 

And brushing your teeth is about 1,000,000 times easier than playing golf, so… it's going to take a little while sometimes. Doesn't mean you can't see a glimpse of what lie ahead for the better. Just that you're not really going to repeat it all that often until you lay down those neural pathways and pave them and let them cure a bit.

[ShortGolfer]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

I tell my students that if they go home and try to brush their teeth left-handed, it's going to take awhile to do it as well as you did before.

I found I could easily do everything as well with my left as with my right.  While in rehab I aced every single test with my left side.  I could unbutton and button my shirt with just my left hand.

I remember handing my neurologist a neatly written handwritten note.  He was astonished that I wrote it!  I had ataxia on my entire right side from a brain stem bleed.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[iacas]

I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm glad you seem to be okay these days.

 

And most people will stick the toothbrush up their nose or forget how to make circles the first few minutes they try to brush lefty. 😉