USGA and R&A Announce golf ball rollback for everyone!?!?!

[ECgolf]

4 hours ago, NoCalHack said:

 

 

OK fine.  So I can't speak for high handicappers that hit it 180.  You have a 9 handicap, so can you speak for the seniors and ladies and know how much it will hurt them?

Sadly I’m a 10 right now. Shaky short game has been particularly bad lately (working on it when I can). I definitely can’t speak for seniors in general, but I do play with my dad and my father in law. My father in law plays 3-4 times per week can’t hit it 200 anymore and happened to be staying with us the last few days so we’ve discussed the roll back. He said he’d definitely notice 10 yards and he plays forward tees already. While he is no longer a long hitter (he was very good back in the day), he is very straight.  I recognize that by 2030 things will be very different for him, but I don’t think he is unique. My Dad probably averages 170 off the tee at his age. Haven’t asked him yet, but would be shocked if he wouldn’t notice 10 yards. My main point was for people to stop saying shorter hitters won’t notice 10 yards. Just because people can’t hit it far does not mean they don’t know how far they can hit it and won’t notice. All of that said, my hope is that by the time rolls out they’ve figured out a way for this change not to effect distance on slower swing speeds. But 10 yards is an especially big deal if your max is under 200 and you care about your golf. 

[dupaloop3611]

There has to be 1 company thag wont roll them back. Ill just play that one 

[mogc60]

On 12/2/2023 at 7:37 AM, caniac6 said:

I think the PGA of America should be the leading authority in American golf. PGA pros operate almost every golf course, and know what the vast majority of golfers are dealing with. I feel like the USGA is not in touch with the average player. Most guys I know need more distance not less. Country clubs and public courses are supported Monday through Friday by retired guys and women. They certainly don’t need to hit it shorter.

If this were true, the rollback wouldn’t happen. The PGA grows and promotes the game. The R&a and USGA make rules based on less than 1% of the game. It’s ridiculous 

[Foxx]

There's no reason to make it illegal to produce and play a rolled back ball at amateur level. 

 

If companies want to produce a ball of current standards for amateur level golf, then I see absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be allowed.

 

The company that does will make a killing.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Foxx

[Spinozist]

There are a lot of reasons to be upset about this, but IMHO one big one is that they haven't really tried the many other options first. I won't go through them all, and many have obviously already been covered, but they include things like longer grass on fairways for less rollout during tournaments; having more golf courses like football stadiums: i.e. specifically for pros to play on (after all, they have the money now lol); changing more short (for pros) par 4s to long par 3s, and 5s to long 4s; keep letting the pros slay some courses (I think Tiger exerted too much influence by his constant refrain of "not wanting to have to shoot 25 under par"); and so on. 

This shouldn't have come before a deep and thorough exploration of all the many other options first. Has anything comparable to this happened in any other sport, multiple times now? (Remember the groove change rule? That was another case where golf was made needlessly harder so that a few courses could "protect par" from the pros. And sadly, we see that virtually all clubs that come out today have conforming grooves, whereas we amateurs would likely have more fun with the old sharp grooves...

[autronicdsm]

3 hours ago, NoCalHack said:

This is very different to what Titleist does, which is sell the exact same ball to the consumer.  Everyone knows it’s the #1 ball in golf and it’s plastered over all their advertisements. If Titleist couldn’t do that, they would benefit from pro usage, sure. But not in the same way. 

 

That's kind of my point. People buying Mercedes don't care if the engine is remotely close to F1. They just care it's a benz, otherwise everyone would be at least driving C63 instead of C300 if they cared about such things.

Titleist could do the same, keep selling Pro V1 and provide a different ball to the tour players. Still advertise as #1 ball. 99% of people wouldn't care. With your logic, why do they even bother making other balls if Pro V1 is what everyone wants?

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, dupaloop3611 said:

There has to be 1 company thag wont roll them back. Ill just play that one 

 

IIRC Polara makes a non conforming ball right now, pretty sure they still will after the dust settles.  As long as you are going non conformist might as well go all the way.  Play a Polara and a Hammer!

[st1800e]

2 hours ago, Foxx said:

There's no reason to make it illegal to produce

Really? the USGA is going to chase down illegal producers? 

[st1800e]

46 minutes ago, autronicdsm said:

Titleist could do the same, keep selling Pro V1 and provide a different ball to the tour players. Still advertise as #1 ball.

I’m sure they will:

In the 2030’s, Jim Nantz, “Titleist, the Best Ball in Golf”

 

[ECgolf]

8 hours ago, cardigan said:

Looking at the latest MGS test and seeing the SuperSoft and Chrome Soft at less than 1 yd total distance difference from a ProV1x at slow speeds but 11 and 7 yds shorter at high swing speeds is a pretty clear indicator that design decisions can have different impacts at different swing speeds.  It's really selling the ball OEM's short to say that they are not capable of modeling balls based on rule changes to have a bigger percentage drop off at higher speeds than lower speeds.  They likely already have the software were they only have to put in a few numbers to get a good starting point for several prototypes.

I’m really hoping this is what happens if this thing goes through. Ball design that is insignificant difference for average to slow swing speeds. The irony of that may be that there is some place along the speed curve where it may no longer be worth it to try to gain speed/power because the drop off in gain won’t be worth it. 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

3 hours ago, mogc60 said:

If this were true, the rollback wouldn’t happen. The PGA grows and promotes the game. The R&a and USGA make rules based on less than 1% of the game. It’s ridiculous 

It's late, but even I would find it ridiculously easy to drive a truck through the holes in Waugh's "operational concerns" for why the Pros (and Pros-only) couldn't deal with a bifurcated ball.

 

'Because it's hard on professional female golfers...'  

[DaveLeeNC]

Here are the (as of today - 12/6/23) official statements from the RB's. 

 

confidential+do+not+share+draft+USGA+GOLF+BALL+RELEASE+USGA+FINAL.pdf (rackcdn.com)

 

RA+USGA+Letter+to+Golf+12+5+23-2.pdf (rackcdn.com)

 

What is interesting is the statement that the expected impact for recreational golfers will be "1 to 5 yards".  That is getting down in the noise range, if that is how it works out. 

 

It is also interesting that they stated that "more than 30% of the balls currently submitted would pass the new standards". 

 

dave

[ECgolf]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Here are the (as of today - 12/6/23) official statements from the RB's. 

 

confidential+do+not+share+draft+USGA+GOLF+BALL+RELEASE+USGA+FINAL.pdf (rackcdn.com)

 

RA+USGA+Letter+to+Golf+12+5+23-2.pdf (rackcdn.com)

 

What is interesting is the statement that the expected impact for recreational golfers will be "1 to 5 yards".  That is getting down in the noise range, if that is how it works out. 

 

It is also interesting that they stated that "more than 30% of the balls currently submitted would pass the new standards". 

 

dave

Less than 5 yards off driver only for regular joes does not really concern me. And from the sound of it, the lower the swing speed the less the impact which is good. 

[JungleJimbo]

 

 

[larrybud]

On 12/4/2023 at 10:54 PM, 2bGood said:

How is it worse? Serous question. 

 

Golf course's are design for ideal range of distances to hit each shot from and offer tee option to help each player be in that range. If you play the course too short for your skill/distance or too long for your skill/distance the intended architecture is compromised. If you adjust the tee box to your distance you should have the intended experience. I have played rounds from too far forward and sure my score went down, but it was not really a great golf experience. Same thing when I played tee too long. 

Then let's all play the tips. How is that worse? The question answers itself.

What's your answer to the old guys who are already playing the forward tees? Just suck it up, buttercup!

 

 

[Double Mocha Man]

7 minutes ago, ECgolf said:

Less than 5 yards off driver only for regular joes does not really concern me. And from the sound of it, the lower the swing speed the less the impact which is good. 

 

I'm still looking for 5 MORE yards...

[larrybud]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

What is interesting is the statement that the expected impact for recreational golfers will be "1 to 5 yards".  That is getting down in the noise range, if that is how it works out. 

 

There is no way in the world I'd take their statement at face value. They would have put that out long time ago if that were the case.

It also doesn't reconcile with their "sustainability" argument. Can't have it both ways!

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by larrybud

[ZAS]

oops

 

oh no

 

they've gone and done it again

 

dopeAlert

[JungleJimbo]

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by JungleJimbo

[JungleJimbo]

 

 

[larrybud]

On 12/5/2023 at 11:06 AM, NoCalHack said:

 

 

I've been playing golf for years.  When I was a kid I played top flites and balatas I pulled out of the water.  Balls probably went 40 yards shorter than balls now.  I remember when I hit my 8 iron 120.   It had nothing to do with the enjoyment of the game.

 

 

Right, that's why this site is full of people who buy new equipment every year....

 

Question: Why don't you still hit balatas or clubs from 30 years ago?

[larrybud]

https://golf.com/gear/drivers/golf-ball-rollback-driver-testing-1-surprise/
 

""Arguably the biggest surprise in the announcement, the governing bodies announced a continued effort to investigate driver performance in two areas: spring-like effect and off-center forgiveness. To be clear, this isn’t the first time the USGA and R&A have questioned whether the driver needed to change."

...
"as well as the adoption of local rules that would allow courses to require limited-flight equipment."

 

LMAO. If you think they couldn't be MORE out of touch, we have this. I can't stop laughing, a "local rule" for equipment.  I guess "Ted" the 80 year old starter will be checking to make sure you're playing conforming equipment. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by larrybud

[Bubb]

17 minutes ago, larrybud said:

Then let's all play the tips. How is that worse? The question answers itself.

What's your answer to the old guys who are already playing the forward tees? Just suck it up, buttercup!

 

 

You’re concerned about the impact on the guys who are currently playing ladies tees?

[larrybud]

3 minutes ago, Bubb said:

You’re concerned about the impact on the guys who are currently playing ladies tees?

Awesome reply. You'd fit right in with at the USGA.

[cardigan]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Here are the (as of today - 12/6/23) official statements from the RB's. 

 

confidential+do+not+share+draft+USGA+GOLF+BALL+RELEASE+USGA+FINAL.pdf (rackcdn.com)

 

RA+USGA+Letter+to+Golf+12+5+23-2.pdf (rackcdn.com)

 

What is interesting is the statement that the expected impact for recreational golfers will be "1 to 5 yards".  That is getting down in the noise range, if that is how it works out. 

 

It is also interesting that they stated that "more than 30% of the balls currently submitted would pass the new standards". 

 

dave

The "more than 30%" part really isn't very informative without a list of what balls they are.  I don't doubt that ball manufacturers are already are well versed in and already utilize the physics to have the ball do different things at different swing speeds so as a slower swing player I'm not concerned about the roll back but I'd "guess" that the most 30+% of balls that would pass the new standard are 2pc non-urethane balls.

[bekgolf]

4 minutes ago, cardigan said:

The "more than 30%" part really isn't very informative without a list of what balls they are.  I don't doubt that ball manufacturers are already are well versed in and already utilize the physics to have the ball do different things at different swing speeds so as a slower swing player I'm not concerned about the roll back but I'd "guess" that the most 30+% of balls that would pass the new standard are 2pc non-urethane balls.

 

If they had a list they would of included it.  IMO they are guessing based on a SWAG.

[cardigan]

32 minutes ago, larrybud said:

Then let's all play the tips. How is that worse? The question answers itself.

What's your answer to the old guys who are already playing the forward tees? Just suck it up, buttercup!

 

 

I imagine that courses would just move tee boxes up if there really is a noticeable distance decrease for slower swing speed players.  Much easier than moving tee boxes back, which sometimes isn't even doable for some holes on some courses.

[phil75070]

Blame the professional tours for their unwillingness to adopt the proposed "local rule" that would require the use of a distance limited ball. There is no distance problem at the amateur level. Hitting the ball too far is an issue only with less than 1% of all golfers. This rollback does not make the game easier, does not make it more accessible, nor less expensive. On the contrary, what is being proposed by those in favor of the rollback for the amateur to minimize the impact does nothing but add cost.

 

I'm old. I moved up to the senior tees when hitting hybrids and fairway woods into par 4s became the norm and took away the fun for me. There is very little difference in distance between the senior and ladies tees, so where are we supposed to move up to? The rough in front of the tee box? Down the fairway, where they place tee boxes for the juniors? I don't see courses building new tee boxes.

 

Fortunately, I probably won't live long enough for this rollback to affect me. However, I think it is the wrong thing to do. Just about every other sport has bifurcation? Why not golf if one chooses to play the game that way? If one wants, with bifurcation of the ball, one could always play with the same ball the pros play with should they so choose. The game the typical amateur plays has no resemblance to the pro game on so many levels already. The casual game we play day in and day out is not the same game. We rarely play on the pristine conditions the pros see week in and week out. We don't play from the same tees.  For many of us, the premium balls that the pros play aren't suited for our games, so we play balls that a pro would never put in play. Very, very few of us have access to the instruction, the trainers, the ability to tweak our equipment, ball included, for maximum performance.

 

I will not be renewing my GHIN handicap next year. I only maintain it as a measuring point for my own game, as I no longer play in any organized events.

[jwb10]

On 12/5/2023 at 9:00 AM, jwb10 said:

These 2 organizations could screw up a 1 car funeral. Like in every other sport, elite athletes are improving. To stop that, say in track, we should make them wear shoes that are too small ? It'll slow them down, records will remain ? Before covid, golf was moribund. Then people discovered that being outdoors with your friends was safe and fun. Now the R/A wants to destroy that vibe because DJ and Rory can mash it. If this happens, and they really are too stupid to stop, the recreational golfer will be having less fun, and people will play other games that take less time and money. Moribund will look good in the rear view. Its always the way, once success finally arrives those that think they are responsible for it conspire to f-it up. BTW, DJ and Rory will still mash it and next it will be the driver, the irons, heck, they may even ban the broomstick (that worked well, didn't it ?) Grow the rough, slow the fairways down and if you are still disturbed that elite players play well, bifurcate. But the leave us, the 99%, the great unwashed, alone. The young and strong will still mash it, the old will try to, and we can have fun. Get out of my sandbox, we're doing fine !

The saddest part is that when the game is healthiest, at the recreational level, these fools want screw with it. LIV has already made the game more fraught, injecting politics into our fun, when we already have politics assaulting from everywhere else. Now, the politics will shift to us beaters, with pro and cons, hints and allegations, and for what ? So we can debate the golf ball before and after a round ? Young golfers like to see how fa they can hit it, now they're telling them that because Merion isn't hard enough anymore you can't enjoy the game as you have before. They will vote with their feet to faster games with more fun. It's a j joke ! architects are building 7800 yd. courses for their over egoed clients and all of us struggle at 6500. What's next, smaller holes ? As I wrote above, these knuckleheads missed the memo and now golf will suffer. Absolute shame

[driveandputtmachine]

USGA/R&A and the PGA Tour have different objectives.  

 

USGA/R&A view that they need to protect golf and it's history.  Not every historic course has the money to expand their course like Augusta National.  Golfers at the highest level have increased how far they hit the ball by quite a bit, so they offered up a modified local rule for the PGA Tour.  ONly the Open and US Open were going to use the local rule professionally.  Sure all state am, national am and the NCAA would use the rolled back ball too.  The PGA Tour basically flipped them off and said they wouldn't use the ball.

====Now whether you think the USGA is right/wrong whatever, this pissed them off, so since they were most worried about the PGA Level players, the only way to force them to agree is to just require it for everyone.

 

THE PGA Tour has a vested interest in making their players look like gods.  380 yard plus drives that rolled 50+ yards is in their interest.  7700 yard courses where they shoot 20+ under par and hit driver and wedges into par 4's makes their players look larger than life and drives interest, interest they feel drives viewership, viewership drives money.  So of course they aren't going to make the rough super high, or grow the grass in the fairways out, or try and soften them.

 

==

 

I never read any of the distance insights report, so while the post today said about looking more into how forgiving drivers are, that seems like where they are going next, and IMHO should have been done years ago.  460cc is way too big.  

 

They will continue to look into COR creep.  Making a club like driver illegal and requiring everyone to get a new one apparently was passed over for limiting the golf ball, which for the majority of golfers is the cheaper way to do it.