Simplification of Relief

[karstens_ghost]

Simplification of relief is something I think should happen, and I've *never* seen a reason why not to do this. Two things:

 

Drop versus Place. If you take relief within the rules, relief without a penalty should be a drop, and relief with a penalty attached should be a place. Why not? This requires randomness for the provision of relief where no penalty is assessed, and for when there is a penalty, we skip the nonsense of where a drop goes, whether it rolls, stays, etc.

(This does not change "lift, clean, and place" scenarios with local rules.)

 

Always two club lengths. If you are in a situation where you must lay down a club from a point, relief always provides you two club lengths. It is unnecessary to restrict to one, and would avoid any and all confusion. Just make it two in all situations.

 

 

Now, I'm sure there will be people who want to pop on here, and tell us all "it has to be this way because it's always been this way", etc. etc… I don't care. The intention here is to simplify the rulebook so that you don't have discussions on the course about "does s/he get one club or two here" or "how many drops" or "what happens if it rolls". Of course, the people on here that are reading this… you're not going to have a problem applying the correct rule here. I'm sure you have it memorised far more than the average bear.

 

Give it a vote, and if you have a reason that's not just "this is how it is", I'd love to hear it.

Edited December 30, 2023 by karstens_ghost

[iacas]

I don't feel that it's as complex as you seem to think it is.

 

I hope this goes better than your last topic, though.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by iacas

[rogolf]

It’s very simple and consistent the way it is now. All relief, free or penalty, is drop. Free relief is within one club-length, penalty relief within two club-lengths.

Some players just need to read, understand and appreciate the procedures. 
I’ve heard of some books “for Dummies”. Fortunately, we’re not all “Dummies” and the Rule book doesn’t need to be written to accommodate the lowest common denominator. 
My $0.02

[Augster]

I’m with you Karsten. There is zero reason why the ruling bodies want to continue with inconsistent relief rules. For the average rube player I think it’d be much easier to play correctly, without having to look anything up, if the relief procedures was always uniform. 
 

2019 got rid of the “4 club lengths” relief. Thank God. That was a dumpster fire trying to explain it. 
 

Doing away with the variable club lengths would be another step in the right direction. The ruling bodies could choose 1CL, or 2CL, and just go with it. I don’t care which. Wouldn’t it just be easier, when someone asks for a ruling, for anything, and being able to always finish with, “and drop within 2CL’s” or “place it within 2CL’s”? I know my summer would be better. 

[Mr. Bean]

I cannot see any simplifying by shifting from "dropping always" towards "sometimes you drop, sometimes you place". In fact, you are rather inconsistent with your proposal simplifying one thing and complicating another.

 

Drop or place always is my view and I do not see any major problem in having the relief area being 2 cl's except for the fact that measuring 2 cl's takes more time.

 

"One is for free, two costs" is an excellent rule of thumb which even the less intelligent persons have no trouble in understanding and memorizing. So let us keep it that way.

[karstens_ghost]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

I’m with you Karsten. There is zero reason why the ruling bodies want to continue with inconsistent relief rules. For the average rube player I think it’d be much easier to play correctly, without having to look anything up, if the relief procedures was always uniform. 
 

2019 got rid of the “4 club lengths” relief. Thank God. That was a dumpster fire trying to explain it. 
 

Doing away with the variable club lengths would be another step in the right direction. The ruling bodies could choose 1CL, or 2CL, and just go with it. I don’t care which. Wouldn’t it just be easier, when someone asks for a ruling, for anything, and being able to always finish with, “and drop within 2CL’s” or “place it within 2CL’s”? I know my summer would be better. 

 

Yep. Don't care what it is. Same as you.

 

 

[karstens_ghost]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

"One is for free, two costs" is an excellent rule of thumb which even the less intelligent persons have no trouble in understanding and memorizing. So let us keep it that way.

 

Penalty area relief. One shot, in line with pin relief. How many CLs?

[GoGoErky]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

I’m with you Karsten. There is zero reason why the ruling bodies want to continue with inconsistent relief rules. For the average rube player I think it’d be much easier to play correctly, without having to look anything up, if the relief procedures was always uniform. 
 

2019 got rid of the “4 club lengths” relief. Thank God. That was a dumpster fire trying to explain it. 
 

Doing away with the variable club lengths would be another step in the right direction. The ruling bodies could choose 1CL, or 2CL, and just go with it. I don’t care which. Wouldn’t it just be easier, when someone asks for a ruling, for anything, and being able to always finish with, “and drop within 2CL’s” or “place it within 2CL’s”? I know my summer would be better. 

They aren’t inconsistent. They are setup based on the different penalty areas which come with their own set of rules.

 

How about they make it real simple and it’s stroke and distance for all penalty areas. So now OB, red stakes and yellow stakes all have the same penalty.  Btw I don’t advocate this change at all.

Edited December 30, 2023 by GoGoErky

[cardoustie]

Most people don’t understand NPR … problems start there

[limegreengent]

26 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

Most people don’t understand NPR … problems start there

 That excuse is a load of nonsense . Npr is so simple. It’s not rocket science.

 
1+1 =2. People do not know how to add until it is taught .

 

As Soon as NPR  is explained to any one then it’s so simple.

People just don’t always want to drop at that point or understand why and that’s the problem.!

 

😱😱😱😱😱

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by limegreengent

[Halebopp]

Like Bean said, you would only complicate things by requiring placing in some instances and dropping in others.

 

And even if you made everything "two club lengths", the relief procedures still wouldn't be the same, unless you were planning to do away with the requirement to take complete relief from abnormal course conditions. Relief for an unplayable ball and from penalty areas would also continue to be different as the reference points are different.

 

By the way, making up straw man arguments will only make yourself look silly.

[davep043]

12 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

If you take relief within the rules, relief without a penalty should be a drop, and relief with a penalty attached should be a place.

Too complicated, drop all the time is simpler.  Isn't this about simplifying the Rules?

12 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

This requires randomness for the provision of relief where no penalty is assessed, and for when there is a penalty, we skip the nonsense of where a drop goes, whether it rolls, stays, etc.

Why should you get the best possible lie, simply because you're taking a Penalty Stroke?  

12 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

If you are in a situation where you must lay down a club from a point

You are NEVER in a situation where you are required to lay down a club to measure.  You're required to drop the ball within the defined Relief Area, and the ball has to remain in that Relief Area, but you're not required to measure.

12 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

Just make it two in all situations.

One of the very first Rules I ever learned was the Lateral Relief distance v. other relief options.  Its not rocket science.  However, it wouldn't bother me to make it uniform, but I'd prefer it to be just one clublength.  The principle is to play your ball from wherever you hit it. so following that principle I'd prefer the smallest reasonable relief area.  

[Schulzmc]

You are correct in wanting to simplify the number of club lengths. I probably have to correct people on the present distinction more than any other rule issue. But I disagree on the drop/place change. You are just creating a new issue for people. Leave it as is.

[rogolf]

The drop procedure is to maintain an element of randomness in the resulting lie of the ball. Placing creates a perfect lie every time, not part of an outdoor game. 

[sui generis]

Fiddling with the Rules under the guise of "simplification" for the supposed benefit of players who couldn't give a monkey's about the Rules in the first place is just more nonsense. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

 

Penalty area relief. One shot, in line with pin relief. How many CLs?

 

Well, that depends how far you are backing up, might be 100 yards i.e. 60-70 cl's.

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Most people don’t understand NPR … problems start there

 

You mean NPCR..? 😉

[Augster]

The drop rules are ridiculous and totally inconsistent. Do you guys ever play with people that only know the Rules marginally? I do a lot, in almost all our events. And I will say the drop Rules ARE NOT understood by the vast majority of players. 
 

Most people still drop from their waist. I have to correct them and say it’s their knee. Then the ball rolls outside the relief area, I tell them they have to redrop. They say it stayed within a CL. I say, yes it did, but it has to stay inside the relief area. 
 

Having the Ruling bodies choose 1CL or 2CL for all relief procedures and PLACE for all penalty procedures would make playing with people that don’t know the Rules very well much,

much, MUCH easier. When placing a ball inside the relief area, it’s NEVER rolling outside it. So it’s time gained right there. Plus anyone can remember “Penalty-Place”. 
 

Our perceptions are skewed as we are golfers that take our free time and frequent a Rules forum on the net. OF COURSE the Rules seem easy and obvious to US. But the VAST majority of players simply do not do that. Heck, I play with a group of a couple dozen people a few times every week and I’m the only person with a WRX login. Not to mention the only player that frequents this forum. 
 

I believe Karsten wouldn’t have started this thread if he didn’t see a “need” for a change. I see it every day I play. 

[GoGoErky]

13 minutes ago, Augster said:

Most people still drop from their waist. I have to correct them and say it’s their knee. Then the ball rolls outside the relief area, I tell them they have to redrop. They say it stayed within a CL. I say, yes it did, but it has to stay inside the relief area. 

These people are obviously not reading the rulebook. Making a name for those not interested is pointless, they won’t read the update anyway

[rogolf]

30 minutes ago, Augster said:

The drop rules are ridiculous and totally inconsistent. Do you guys ever play with people that only know the Rules marginally? I do a lot, in almost all our events. And I will say the drop Rules ARE NOT understood by the vast majority of players. 
 

Most people still drop from their waist. I have to correct them and say it’s their knee. Then the ball rolls outside the relief area, I tell them they have to redrop. They say it stayed within a CL. I say, yes it did, but it has to stay inside the relief area. 
 

Having the Ruling bodies choose 1CL or 2CL for all relief procedures and PLACE for all penalty procedures would make playing with people that don’t know the Rules very well much,

much, MUCH easier. When placing a ball inside the relief area, it’s NEVER rolling outside it. So it’s time gained right there. Plus anyone can remember “Penalty-Place”. 
 

Our perceptions are skewed as we are golfers that take our free time and frequent a Rules forum on the net. OF COURSE the Rules seem easy and obvious to US. But the VAST majority of players simply do not do that. Heck, I play with a group of a couple dozen people a few times every week and I’m the only person with a WRX login. Not to mention the only player that frequents this forum. 
 

I believe Karsten wouldn’t have started this thread if he didn’t see a “need” for a change. I see it every day I play. 

As an aside, I don’t think there was ever a drop from “the waist”. Its history over the past half century has been over the shoulder, shoulder height and now knee height. 
This just illustrates that no matter what the Rules say, there is a large percentage of golfers who don’t know them, are interested in knowing them and wouldn’t follow them anyway.  Rules cannot be written for them in any form. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

46 minutes ago, Augster said:

The drop rules are ridiculous and totally inconsistent. Do you guys ever play with people that only know the Rules marginally? I do a lot, in almost all our events. And I will say the drop Rules ARE NOT understood by the vast majority of players. 
 

Most people still drop from their waist. I have to correct them and say it’s their knee. Then the ball rolls outside the relief area, I tell them they have to redrop. They say it stayed within a CL. I say, yes it did, but it has to stay inside the relief area. 
 

Having the Ruling bodies choose 1CL or 2CL for all relief procedures and PLACE for all penalty procedures would make playing with people that don’t know the Rules very well much,

much, MUCH easier. When placing a ball inside the relief area, it’s NEVER rolling outside it. So it’s time gained right there. Plus anyone can remember “Penalty-Place”. 
 

Our perceptions are skewed as we are golfers that take our free time and frequent a Rules forum on the net. OF COURSE the Rules seem easy and obvious to US. But the VAST majority of players simply do not do that. Heck, I play with a group of a couple dozen people a few times every week and I’m the only person with a WRX login. Not to mention the only player that frequents this forum. 
 

I believe Karsten wouldn’t have started this thread if he didn’t see a “need” for a change. I see it every day I play. 

 

Do you actually believe that another set of Rules of Golf would be any better known / understood by those ignorants?

 

I very much doubt it.

[Schulzmc]

6 hours ago, rogolf said:

The drop procedure is to maintain an element of randomness in the resulting lie of the ball. Placing creates a perfect lie every time, not part of an outdoor game. 

 

If you want you can place the ball a lot of the time. Pick a spot to drop near the edge of the relief area where it is likely the ball will bounce or roll out of the area. Two drops and then you get to place. Watch the pros - they are really good at this. 

[karstens_ghost]

6 hours ago, sui generis said:

Fiddling with the Rules under the guise of "simplification" for the supposed benefit of players who couldn't give a monkey's about the Rules in the first place is just more nonsense. 😉

 

In my opinion, your reasoning is exactly why you do it.

https://www.amazon.com/Rules-Reference-2023-2026-Practical-Course/dp/3906852393?pd_rd_w=vFqFx&content-id=amzn1.sym.928be83d-9abb-4025-bc6e-e0aed5aed3c9&pf_rd_p=928be83d-9abb-4025-bc6e-e0aed5aed3c9&pf_rd_r=PW5Z796H7P99QX0AVHNC&pd_rd_wg=cv31g&pd_rd_r=44c5394a-cdda-4a31-b3df-f58ded85f111&pd_rd_i=3906852393&psc=1&ref_=pd_basp_d_rpt_ba_s_13_i

 

The reason this is a best-seller is most players need to refer to get it right once there's anything slightly amiss. This guy has sold 2,500,000 copies of his simplification. That should be a catalyst.

 

If you simplify it to where the players who "don't care" can care because they are not convoluted, more will follow the actual rules. And that's the point, right? Getting more players to follow the rules?

 

Keep in mind it is not your experience you are dealing with.

[karstens_ghost]

6 hours ago, rogolf said:

The drop procedure is to maintain an element of randomness in the resulting lie of the ball. Placing creates a perfect lie every time, not part of an outdoor game. 

 

I agree with this. The point of making a penalty a place is that you are removing a ball from an area you can't/won't play from. Thus, you're not "recreating a landing" after a penalty; you're proceeding from a location designated by relief. I think it's appropriate to drop for no penalty because in those situations, you are told that you may/must not play from an area, but it's 'not your fault' if you will. Thus, it's more like "just pretend you landed nearby". That maintains the randomness element.

 

But as an example, if you scoop your ball out of a lake, you're not recreating a shot. You're provided with a choice of zones to proceed from. Penalty? Place. And go. (IMO)

[karstens_ghost]

Also, I understand that many of you in this subforum hate this kind of discussion. That's ok. I'd just ask that you remember that you aren't being told that you don't know what you're doing. You do. I know a few of you find it insulting, and if you do, you're missing the point.

 

Recently, I had a fellow competitor ask me about whether he could place in a drop zone.

 

Let that sink in.

[karstens_ghost]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Do you actually believe that another set of Rules of Golf would be any better known / understood by those ignorants?

 

I very much doubt it.

 

Relief rules, yes. Yes I do. More would follow the rules, and the game would be better for it.

 

Oh ya, nearly forgot. Remember that time… what was it, 2018? When the rules bodies were proposing a "1-inch drop"? I kind of like drops to recreate non-penalised shots. But if you did really want to go simple, you could basically do what they were about to do, which was effectively eliminate the drop everywhere in the game.

Edited December 31, 2023 by karstens_ghost

[sui generis]

Those who don't play by the Rules know it and don't care a toss. They're out there in the fresh air whacking it around and enjoying themselves.

 

No amount of tweaking the Rule book or interference from you (or me) will ever change that. And, that's fine. I'm happy for them. 

[davep043]

1 hour ago, karstens_ghost said:

Recently, I had a fellow competitor ask me about whether he could place in a drop zone.

 

Let that sink in.

You simply can't write the rules so that the least intelligent players can understand them.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, karstens_ghost said:

Also, I understand that many of you in this subforum hate this kind of discussion. That's ok. I'd just ask that you remember that you aren't being told that you don't know what you're doing. You do. I know a few of you find it insulting, and if you do, you're missing the point.

 

Recently, I had a fellow competitor ask me about whether he could place in a drop zone.

 

Let that sink in.

So you want to replace one “inconsistency” with another one.

 

Your playing partner doesn’t care enough to read the rules. Changing rules isn’t going to help that playing partner, he’s going to be ignorant of the changes.

 

as has been said you can’t make rules for those type of people 

[karstens_ghost]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

So you want to replace one “inconsistency” with another one.

 

Your playing partner doesn’t care enough to read the rules. Changing rules isn’t going to help that playing partner, he’s going to be ignorant of the changes.

 

as has been said you can’t make rules for those type of people 

 

This is the part where I think most in this forum miss things.

 

I bet he had read the rules. Probably been months or years, but I'm sure he had. The point is that when you're on the course, it's the memorisation of rules that escapes well-intentioned people. The actual rules aren't carried by many, and it's very unusual for me to see anyone pull up the actual rules when in doubt. It's just too time consuming to be fair.

 

Take for example a player confronted with a marked, white square, with a label "DZ" painted in a scraggly way nearby. We all know what that means, but for the exercise, assume the other guy you're playing does not. If you're 100yds away, you simply cannot assume they'll pull out the full rules, find the correct way to proceed, and act on it all within a timely manner.

 

If it's a "penalty zone", someone puts a ball down and continues. Drop, place, no matter. If you're within the zone, you're good. Just no tees. Penalty? Place. And go.