"Be the Star of Your Own Lesson"

bortass · January 2

I didn't read the article but the parts @iacas shared make me feel like I have won powerball with the instructors I have worked with over the year. None of them buried me in data or tried to rebuild things all at once. I must have found some unicorns!

Here's my analogy. I used to travel from Maine to Connecticut on business and the MacDonalds on the Mass Pike just across the state line put way too much salt on their fries. It was a friggin' salt lick. Happened every time I stopped there, therefore every MacDonalds in the world has fries that are too salty. I should have warned people!

There is likely a kernel of truth in the article based on some stuff I have read online over the years but that doesn't make it the norm. It's good to have an idea what to look out for in case you happen to try an instructor that has traits from that article but that's about it.

virtuoso · January 2

29 minutes ago, bluedot said:

It sounds like he was the star of the lesson he was giving a "talented young player". He's certainly the star in his retelling;

"BOOM!" Really?

Exactamundo

iacas · January 2

1 minute ago, bortass said:

I didn't read the article but the parts @iacas shared make me feel like I have won powerball with the instructors I have worked with over the year. None of them buried me in data or tried to rebuild things all at once. I must have found some unicorns!

You didn't… as you know yourself:

1 minute ago, bortass said:

There is likely a kernel of truth in the article based on some stuff I have read online over the years but that doesn't make it the norm. It's good to have an idea what to look out for in case you happen to try an instructor that has traits from that article but that's about it.

Exactly.

And the article doesn't do that, either. It could have done a number of things:

How to get what you want out of lessons.
How to be a good student.
How to find a good instructor.
"Top Six Signs You Need to Fire Your Coach"
Building a successful partnership.
etc.

virtuoso · January 2

There is no question that there is a lot of bad instruction out there. I have plenty of problems with what is being taught these days, and how it’s being taught, but he is ill-equipped to write an article about it.

He accidentally told on himself a couple times that shows he doesn’t know much about instruction, and coupled it with an unreasonable level of confidence. Not a good combo.

iacas · January 2

5 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

He accidentally told on himself a couple times that shows he doesn’t know much about instruction, and coupled it with an unreasonable level of confidence. Not a good combo.

Yeah, I have two questions for him:

Who has he ever worked with?
What's his handicap (seeing as how golf is not hard once you learn to control the face or whatever)?

Soloman1 · January 2

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Well, he said 99 percent are charlatans

I wonder if his next article is on the scandal-ridden era of golf instruction from 1895 to 2023?

iacas · January 2

2 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

I wonder if his next article is on the scandal-ridden era of golf instruction from 1895 to 2023?

AMG's latest video was published on January 1, so you've gotta push that out to 2024 now.

mshills · January 2

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

And the article doesn't do that, either. It could have done a number of things:

How to get what you want out of lessons.

How to be a good student.

How to find a good instructor.

"Top Six Signs You Need to Fire Your Coach"

Building a successful partnership.

etc.

Right. I'm not sure what the point of that "article" was. Actually I do know.....it's clickbait like all the other fine journalism on the front page!

The points you outline above would be great for a thoughtful column, particularly the ones I bolded.....which IMO are situational, and completely different for every student. As for me, here's my perspective:

Data are for the instructor, not for me.
Feel may not be real, that's fine. But by God, feel is still what I feel, and I want an instructor to help me understand how what we are working on should feel....don't be shy, put your hands on me and force it if necessary.
How to practice what we are working on should be emphasized, along with some guidance on how to know if I'm on the right track.

virtuoso · January 2

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yeah, I have two questions for him:

Who has he ever worked with?

What's his handicap (seeing as how golf is not hard once you learn to control the face or whatever)?

I scanned some of his previous articles. He is probably legitimately an expert on methods for preparing a junior golfer for college…..which tells you something about the types of talented young people he’s given free tips to.

I know nothing otherwise but I would assume he’s a low single digit, which is the sweetspot for having a dangerous amount of knowledge.

You can tell from the article, he’s never worked the line, and if he’s taken a lesson, he probably thought he knew more than the instructor.

My last guess would be that, while working with college recruits, he’s heard about what the instructors were teaching them, and disapproved, which is a luxury you have because the kid is not going to call you a week later to say your free “feedback” has him snap hooking the ball.

iacas · January 2

11 minutes ago, mshills said:

The points you outline above would be great for a thoughtful column, particularly the ones I bolded.....which IMO are situational, and completely different for every student.

I think the last time I was on the On the Mark podcast, we talked about one of my Twitter threads where I talked about "how to be a good student." You might find those tweets interesting (or not).

11 minutes ago, mshills said:

Data are for the instructor, not for me.

Not always. And increasingly less so, but with clear focus.

For example, two lessons recently spring to mind.

One guy was working on distance wedges. We worked on looking at launch angle primarily (and the few bits of data that play a role in it). Sub-30° for someone of his skill level, and he'd look at that and when it was good, feel good, and when it was bad, diagnose what he did differently in that swing.
Student was 3° up and 12° right with his path (6I). I had him feeling steep and over the top, and the path and AoA numbers were watched, mostly so he could start to believe how much (for now) he had to feel that thing. It's something we'll closely monitor.

When I'm on GEARS, I'll focus a student on one or two bits of data. That way they can begin participating in the lesson beyond just "here is what he is telling me to do." They can look at it quickly and go "nope, I didn't do it. Let me try again and do it more."

Students are having more and more access to data, so saying "data is for the instructor" doesn't fly as much. It's impractical. They're going to see the data; helping them focus on the relevant data and interpret it is becoming more and more a part of an instructor's role.

8 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

I scanned some of his previous articles. He is probably legitimately an expert on methods for preparing a junior golfer for college…..which tells you something about the types of talented young people he’s given free tips to.

I knew I knew his name from something. I talked with him a few times about my own daughter's college choices, and referred a few people to him years ago. He's good at college placement stuff. Not so good at writing articles about instruction, as we now know.

8 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

My last guess would be that, while working with college recruits, he’s heard about what the instructors were teaching them, and disapproved, which is a luxury you have because the kid is not going to call you a week later to say your free “feedback” has him snap hooking the ball.

😄

mshills · January 2

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Students are having more and more access to data, so saying "data is for the instructor" doesn't fly as much. It's impractical. They're going to see the data; helping them focus on the relevant data and interpret it is becoming more and more a part of an instructor's role.

Great post thank you. Even though I've been in the game my whole life and used to be a decent player before I got injured, I don't have enough expertise to understand and synthesize swing data enough to use them. Furthermore, I don't have access to such data when I am playing golf or practicing on my own, so limited use for me unless synthesized and interpreted by the instructor first.

The whole point I'm making here is this is the type of dialogue needed between student and instructor before getting started. My guess is it happens more frequently with the type of student who frequents a golf forum....a tiny, and very specialized sample indeed. What I expect is most instructors have to deal with "I shot 103 in my league last week. I keep slicing it and hitting behind it, and I want to break 90 in next month's member guest." Gulp. Uh-oh.

Zitlow · January 2

According to the USGA, In the last 25 years, the average USGA handicap for a man has improved nearly two full strokes, from 16.3 to 14.4.

With all the equipment and teaching tool advances the handicaps have gone down less than 2 strokes in the last 25 years. Wow!

Shilgy · January 2

15 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

According to the USGA, In the last 25 years, the average USGA handicap for a man has improved nearly two full strokes, from 16.3 to 14.4.

With all the equipment and teaching tool advances the handicaps have gone down less than 2 strokes in the last 25 years. Wow!

1) most don’t take lessons

1b) most that do get a lesson think they’re “fixed” instantly

2) most don’t get fit

3) Covid brought in a lot of beginners

4-100?

Zitlow · January 2

Lessons are good if they really help people improve but golf instructors are in business to sell lessons. Caveat emptor.

If a person doesn't see tangible improvement they should find another instructor.

MelloYello · January 2

17 hours ago, iacas said:

The scenario typically unfolds like this: you arrive, hit a few shots, receive some compliments from the instructor, and then endure a 10-15 minute discourse about your swing.

In my experience, most instructors are good, honest people who genuinely want to help. That's not everybody, but that's basically anyone who's established enough to have their name recommended to you.

I disagree with the "10-15 minute discourse" comment. In my estimation, if/when this occurs, it's because it's too often the student going silent and the lesson becomes a 1-way conversation with the student offering up very little in the way of questions and comments.

The lesson is a place not just for quick tune-ups but to establish the degree to which the student wants to spend time addressing some set of issues. I think a lot of students just find progress to be too hard. I recommend students to ask more questions and share with the instructor when something feels too awkward or when something is generally unclear.

17 hours ago, iacas said:

The more money you spend, the more the conversation veers into technical jargon, referencing “data” from devices like Trackman or FlightScope.

This has not been my experience.

Technology like Trackman has certainly helped me a lot but it's not expensive and even if it were, it's not necessary for every swing or lesson, nor is it something the more expensive instructors force on students or rely on to fill up lesson time.

I had a series of lessons several years ago that involved the presence of Trackman but only to facilitate a clear understanding of what was happening. Video was more vital in those lessons and again, only to frame a discussion of what I was doing and what I could be doing better to improve the consistency of my ball-striking. The instructor really didn't rely on Trackman or hype it up. It was more in the background if anything.

The head teaching pro at my home club has worked with several modern PGA Tour pros and is himself a winner of professional events in his home country. He is about the least tech-driven instructor I've ever witnessed--more of a drills-based guy with tools like an impact bag--yet he (understandably) charges a pretty penny for his time. So, no, I don't think $$$ = Tech.

17 hours ago, iacas said:

The instructor proceeds to explain how difficult it is to implement a specific change, offering a random adjustment, and if fortunate, a practice drill, before moving on swiftly to the next lesson.

This is every lesson everywhere. I gave guitar instruction for a long time back in high-school and college and it was like that. You teach a new song to introduce some idea, technique, chord voicing, harmonic idea or whatever and you push the student out the door until the following week. Again, lessons are there to help the student. What the student does with the knowledge and what journey they make for themselves is their own business.

Hopefully, the day someone showed you the chords to Hotel California and pointed out how a bit of modal interchange can be used to resolve a dominant back to a root isn't part of the story of how "lessons were too cookie-cutter."

One comment on "random drills" which I do agree can be annoying:

This is often the case with instructors who love the idea of there being a single, 'fundamentally sound' way to move the club. I think this type of person is more from a certain generation that obsessed over Hogan & Trevino and spent an entire childhood reading certain golf texts. They're unlikely to deviate from what they "know" is correct, especially if it works for them personally. There is a type of person out there who believes that everyone should imitate Ben Hogan. I tend to disagree with that worldview for not just the obvious but also some subtle reasons.

17 hours ago, iacas said:

Finally, a system teacher understands the cause and effect of patterns and movements on trajectory, curve, and distance. Sadly, 99 percent of instructors fall into the method or non-system categories, and 100 percent of these are charlatans.

There is no way to validate any of these claims or labels. This is just filler.

17 hours ago, iacas said:

As a result; that lesson that went well two weeks ago has all of a sudden turned into a total golf swing overhaul.

Again, I think this deals more with the type of instructor and his/her impressions of what makes a 'fundamentally-good' swing.

The student does need to take ownership though. I don't have a lot of sympathy for students who show up and fall into long-term relationships that don't work because they were too willing to put up with a lack of results.

If it isn't helping right out of the gate, move on and find a better use of your time. If the first adjustment doesn't resolve something and make the process of moving the club a bit easier, the 2nd and 3rd are unlikely to start suddenly producing good results.

If the doctor prescribes 1 pill and it makes you worse and then prescribes another and another until you're almost dead, it's unlikely that the 13th pill will suddenly make everything fall into line. Every change needs to demonstrate improvement in some area. There is no "swing change" that ever happens, only small incremental changes that slowly bring someone into a more sustainable state. That path provides both short-term and long-term benefits for the student.

17 hours ago, iacas said:

better players should tackle multiple skills in a session.

Probably not.

17 hours ago, iacas said:

Once you’ve nailed the basics of arm structure and club face awareness, the rest isn’t really that hard.

Perhaps. It's tough to say what's "hard" and what isn't. If you ask me what's "hard" about the golf swing I'm not exactly sure and I certainly don't know if what's hard for me will be what's hard for you.

17 hours ago, iacas said:

Too many instructors want to be the stars and overhaul your swing.

Again, this hasn't been my experience although in some sense every teacher in the world teaches from their own perspective. There is no "unbiased" method of instruction in anything. Again, I tend to think that students are probably the best ones to ask.

Begin with the age-old, "did you improve when you worked with this instructor?" After that, take a lesson and see for yourself. We spend countless dollars on many things in golf. IMHO, we don't spend enough on instruction, especially when so much of what we know we got from the experience and wisdom of someone else. The more time we spend around good players and good instructors, the better we're likely to be.

The danger here is not bad instructors but rather a large % of the golfing population who, for whatever reason, seem unwilling to step into the roll of being a student establishing some type of short- or long-term relationship with a wiser, more experienced consultant who can help guide them towards a better understanding of how to shape their own practice.

You can always walk away from bad instruction.

You can never go back and get the good instruction you passed over.

.

Edited January 2 by MelloYello

MPStrat · January 2

48 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

According to the USGA, In the last 25 years, the average USGA handicap for a man has improved nearly two full strokes, from 16.3 to 14.4.

With all the equipment and teaching tool advances the handicaps have gone down less than 2 strokes in the last 25 years. Wow!

I would argue that most if not all of the 2 stroke improvement came from advances in equipment. With these advances I would argue 2 stroke improvement is close to a net decline.

If the average mid to high handicap golfer really knew what it took to get to a respectable level of golf they would probably want no part of it or would laugh at the time investment needed. People who post here are often different than the average golfer having taken the next step to start diving deeper into golf swing theory on our own. We are the exception.

The people who make big strides have to really want it and have the time and resources to make it happen. There are endless pitfalls that get people off track and these challenges usually happen within days of a golf lesson. Good teachers hopefully provide good information which is extremely valuable, but at the end of the day it’s not “golfer takes lesson + golfer practices = golfer improves” That is a lie. Things aren’t as cut and dried as they are made to seem in your favorite teacher’s internet marketing videos. It is not uncommon for 2 knowledgeable teachers with the same data to examine at a golf swing and see cause and effect very differently. We are all human and are for better or worse are influenced by our own experiences.

I also firmly believe that to make a big improvement, there are also many things that are needed that a golfer probably won’t learn from a teacher in a lesson. A good teacher is going to present “what” needs to happen and make a case for “why” it’s not happening. The really good ones can help with the “how” but a good portion of responsibility for learning “how”comes from the student themselves.

Nels55 · January 2

14 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

In almost all cases, data is for the instructor, not the student.

Tailoring language to the individual is a wonderful skill. Jargon is for those unskilled in communicating.

The old “Start with why,” then “how,” using a drill and feel is a time-tested way to teach.

Albert Einstein was convinced by his associates at Princeton to take up golf. The pro, knowing who he was, went through thing after thing after thing in rapid order. Hey, He’s the smartest guy, he can handle it.

Einstein picked up a handful of balls and threw them at him and said, “Catch!!” He then scolded the pro and told him to do one thing at a time.

Einstein gave up golf. When asked why, he said it was too complicated.

And there you have it. It was too complicated for Albert Einstein. What chance does the average person have to master it? 🙂

Einstein was a really good violinist a skill that he used in order to meet nice ladies. I bet that he learned violin in the same way that pretty much every young student does which is one step at a time.

MonteScheinblum · January 2

3 hours ago, virtuoso said:

You can tell from the article, he’s never worked the line, and if he’s taken a lesson, he probably thought he knew more than the instructor.

My last guess would be that, while working with college recruits, he’s heard about what the instructors were teaching them, and disapproved, which is a luxury you have because the kid is not going to call you a week later to say your free “feedback” has him snap hooking the ball.

So true.

i find people fall into 4 categories.

1. Golfers that don’t much care about getting that much better and just want to have fun when they play.

2. Golfers who want to get better and seek instruction until they find someone they mesh with.

3. Golfers who tried a few lessons and had a bad experience.

4. Golfers who have a staggering case of Dunning Kruger.

Group 1 are great and I enjoy playing with them. Group 2 have incremental improvement over their careers that match their ability and how much they practice. Sorry to say that group 3 is a rather large group, as there is a lot of bad instruction out there.

Group 4, which obviously this author belongs to and we have a few well known members here who fall in, love to sit on the sidelines and bloviate their opinions because of exactly what you said. Their opinions are based on exactly the same experience as someone who was in Death Valley the one day in rained there.

Edited January 2 by MonteScheinblum

Jtgavigan · January 2

4 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Here is an excerpt from one of his previous articles. What does this tell you about the guy?

A couple of days ago, I played with a talented young player. For the first seven holes, he was flawless. Then he started to hit a number of bad drives. He explained the frustration of “missing both ways” and described endless hours on the range, working through it. He also described the frustration (and fear) of having to play when not knowing where the ball was going but felt he had no choice but to grit through it cause of his scholarship. Finally, on the 11th tee, he turned and asked if I had any feedback. The issue was that
he was setting up with the face too square. When his path was right, the ball would start straight and hook. Under pressure, he would increase side bend (a lot) to try and square the face. The result would be a block. I told him to fan the face open, try to hit a draw, and swing hard. Now that the face and path matched, tight draw that never crossed his target line. BOOM!

I.....just....can't....

That is 100% ridiculous....

MonteScheinblum · January 2

4 minutes ago, Jtgavigan said:

I.....just....can't....

That is 100% ridiculous....

Correct. His brilliant instruction is the equivalent of the 30 handicap closing the face massively at address trying to fix his slice, he finishes with a 5 hole stretch of bombs in the fairway and EUREKA, his slice is cured forever.

Nels55 · January 2

To me this is a tutorial on how to take a lesson:

Ben Crane is only interested in understanding what Kwon is saying and asks specific questions to clarify anything that he does not understand. He spends zero time trying to impress Dr. Kwon with his knowledge and he does not tell Dr. Kwon what is wrong with his swing.

Nels55 · January 2

20 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

So true.

i find people fall into 4 categories.

1. Golfers that don’t much care about getting that much better and just want to have fun when they play.

2. Golfers who want to get better and seek instruction until they find someone they mesh with.

3. Golfers who tried a few lessons and had a bad experience.

4. Golfers who have a staggering case of Dunning Kruger.

Group 1 are great and I enjoy playing with them. Group 2 have incremental improvement over their careers that match their ability and how much they practice. Sorry to say that group 3 is a rather large group, as there is a lot of bad instruction out there.

Group 4, which obviously this author belongs to and we have a few well known members here who fall in, love to sit on the sidelines and bloviate their opinions because of exactly what you said. Their opinions are based on exactly the same experience as someone who was in Death Valley the one day in rained there.

I believe that I may hold the record for number of times peaking Mt. Stupid. Top 1% for sure...

MonteScheinblum · January 2

5 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I believe that I may hold the record for number of times peaking Mt. Stupid. Top 1% for sure...

Nah.

Jtgavigan · January 2

Just one more quick comment. I have been playing for 40 plus years. I think I have used maybe 7 different instructors, both online and in person, over the years and for long stretches I didn't take lessons because of other priorities in my life.

I have used 3 in the last 3 years. One evidently got busy and started ghosting me and everyone I sent to him. Another one, I only took one lesson with and then had to walk away from the game for a bit to work on my business. Not sure he was a great fit for me. I just started working with a guy on Skillest because he fits a philosophy that resonates with me.

All that said, never once have I felt like I was dealing with a charlatan. I always genuinely felt like the instructor wanted to help me. Some have been better than others. I have always looked forward to taking lessons and either validating my thoughts or totally blowing them up.

It is like any other profession, some people are just better than others at what they do. With instruction, we all learn differently, so not everyone "clicks" with everyone else. That is not a reflection on the instructor's willingness or desire to help someone learn.

virtuoso · January 2

16 minutes ago, Jtgavigan said:

It is like any other profession, some people are just better than others at what they do. With instruction, we all learn differently, so not everyone "clicks" with everyone else. That is not a reflection on the instructor's willingness or desire to help someone learn.

This is the plain and simple truth, and some people just refuse grasp this basic concept.

iacas · January 2

4 hours ago, Zitlow said:

According to the USGA, In the last 25 years, the average USGA handicap for a man has improved nearly two full strokes, from 16.3 to 14.4.

With all the equipment and teaching tool advances the handicaps have gone down less than 2 strokes in the last 25 years. Wow!

🤦‍♂️

3 hours ago, Zitlow said:

…golf instructors are in business to sell lessons. Caveat emptor.

Wow. What a terrible attitude and opinion. This is one of the worst takes you've ever had, and that's saying something.

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Group 4, which obviously this author belongs to and we have a few well known members here who fall in

Edited January 2 by iacas

Jayjay_theweim_guy · January 2

6 hours ago, virtuoso said:

...He accidentally told on himself a couple times that shows he doesn’t know much about instruction, and coupled it with an unreasonable level of confidence. Not a good combo.

Dunning-Kruger is a tough thing to beat.

(The mosquito in a nudist colony metaphor is hereby stolen, btw. Thanks!)

bluedot · January 2

4 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Lessons are good if they really help people improve but golf instructors are in business to sell lessons. Caveat emptor.

If a person doesn't see tangible improvement they should find another instructor.

Doctors are in business to cure illness. Caveat emptor.

Teachers are in business to educate. Caveat emptor.

Cops are in business to keep the peace. Caveat emptor.

Firemen are in business to put out fires. Caveat emptor.

C’mon, man….

Every purchase we ever make in any part of our life is caveat emptor; golf instruction is no different. That said, not only has no golf instructor EVER tried to sell me a lesson, but the real caveat emptor in golf instruction is the question of whether or not the student is going to put in the reps after the lesson. THAT is what the student should beware of, and many, if not most, just don’t understand the concept of what’s necessary.

Edited January 2 by bluedot

bluedot · January 2

5 hours ago, Zitlow said:

According to the USGA, In the last 25 years, the average USGA handicap for a man has improved nearly two full strokes, from 16.3 to 14.4.

With all the equipment and teaching tool advances the handicaps have gone down less than 2 strokes in the last 25 years. Wow!

There is so much wrong here that it’s hard to know where to start. So I won’t.

virtuoso · January 2

20 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Dunning-Kruger is a tough thing to beat.

(The mosquito in a nudist colony metaphor is hereby stolen, btw. Thanks!)

I don’t remember who I stole it from, but enjoy.

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