Is the PGA Tour at a loss or at a crossroad?

[bekgolf]

22 minutes ago, ducky50 said:

I follow golf as much as the next person but I had no idea who Knapp is and several golfers on the leaderboard. I did know who Sami was because I follow the DP tour.  The PGA has a major issue if the big name players aren't in contention week after week no one will be watching.

 

Are you kidding?  It's fantastic that someone we don't know about can win a PGA tournament!  It's a life changing moment for the golfer and his family.  That's how golfers get recognition, by contending. 

 

Imagine how boring it would be if the same golfers were always in the lead because they had no competition.  That would be a snoozefest.

[notsohard]

[Maine Golfer]

Talor Gooch is like the guy who calls in sick on Monday all the time , doesn't keep up with his teams work and complains to anyone who will listen his 2 week PTO was denied 

 

[PeterJP]

For the longest time the PGAT has been very good at i) positioning itself as a not for profit and player-focused sports association with a commitment to charity-and-fund raising for local agencies through its 20+ annual stops in communities all across the country, ii) creating the impression among casual golf fans that it was somehow affiliated/synonymous with and key driver of golf's 4 major championships, particularly the US Open and the PGA championship , iii) using its U.S.-based financial and marketing clout to hem in and/or bully out of existence (or potential existence) any and all competing golf tours that wouldn't acquiesce to becoming merely the 'feeder system' for the PGAT and that wouldn't acknowledge it as the only game in town, and as the home of golf's true 'traditions' and meaningful 'history'.

 

But in the last two+ years, just about everyone has seen that in actuality i) the PGAT is most definitely a for-profit model, and one with little genuine concern for the local fund-raising efforts and charity work in its small-market communities and tier-two tournaments, ii) is not at all synonymous with the 'game of golf' itself or with the national opens across the world or the 4 major championships, as for one reason or another the Open and US Open and Masters and PGA will have LIV players participating now and/or in years to come, and iii) that US-based money, as huge at it is, is no longer the only big money pouring into the game, and that in global (vs America-only) terms, it is quite possible that the bully has now finally met its match, and that many of the very top golfers in the world have come to suspect -- and are willing to say -- that the emperor has no clothes. 

 

All of which is to suggest, to borrow a sometimes annoying term, that the PGAT is not only at a crossroads, but may in fact be facing its first ever 'existential threat'. 
 

 

 

Edited February 27 by PeterJP

[jimecherry]

2 hours ago, notsohard said:

dont worry this week is going to be up or at least flat as it would be hard to be down yoy considering how low rated last years honda open was

[jimecherry]

2 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 

Are you kidding?  It's fantastic that someone we don't know about can win a PGA tournament!  It's a life changing moment for the golfer and his family.  That's how golfers get recognition, by contending. 

 

Imagine how boring it would be if the same golfers were always in the lead because they had no competition.  That would be a snoozefest.

for me i consider mediocre golf the snoozefest doesnt matter if the winner's dog got hit by a car the day they got on a plane to the tournament. and one win doesnt equal recognition.

[bekgolf]

2 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

for me i consider mediocre golf the snoozefest doesnt matter if the winner's dog got hit by a car the day they got on a plane to the tournament. and one win doesnt equal recognition.

 

It is different for all of us.  I usually get pretty excited for the first time winner.

[DrunkCaddy]

2 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 

Are you kidding?  It's fantastic that someone we don't know about can win a PGA tournament!  It's a life changing moment for the golfer and his family.  That's how golfers get recognition, by contending. 

 

Imagine how boring it would be if the same golfers were always in the lead because they had no competition.  That would be a snoozefest.

It depends doesn't it?   I love a story about a rookie that becomes "the guy" after beating a strong field, and is consistently at the top of the leaderboard in most tournaments he enters ... then you know you got something.   Isn't that  how all today's superstars got started after all? 

 

But if it is a bunch of rookies that win a single tournament because that's all it is, a competition among a bunch of nobody's ... then it becomes a "who cares."  Let's tune in next week to see which  scrub wins this week.   It's not like when the NFL went on strike and the scab's played, I thought "man this guy who threw for 300 yards against a bunch of nobody's is really good!."   Are these really tomorrow's superstars?  or just a bunch of guys that in 30 years will be on VH1's "one hit wonders?"

[bekgolf]

23 minutes ago, PeterJP said:

For the longest time the PGAT has been very good at i) positioning itself as a not for profit and player-focused sports association with a commitment to charity-and-fund raising for local agencies through its 20+ annual stops in communities all across the country, ii) creating the impression among casual golf fans that it was somehow affiliated/synonymous with and key driver of golf's 4 major championships, particularly the US Open and the PGA championship , iii) using its U.S.-based financial and marketing clout to hem in and/or bully out of existence (or potential existence) any and all competing golf tours that wouldn't acquiesce to becoming merely the 'feeder system' for the PGAT and that wouldn't acknowledge it as the only game in town, and as the home of golf's true 'traditions' and meaningful 'history'.

 

But in the last two+ years, just about everyone has seen that in actuality i) the PGAT is most definitely a for-profit model, and one with little genuine concern for the local fund-raising efforts and charity work in its small-market communities and tier-two tournaments, ii) is not at all synonymous with the 'game of golf' itself or with the national opens across the world or the 4 major championships, as for one reason or another the Open and US Open and Masters and PGA will have LIV players participating now and/or in years to come, and iii) that US-based money, as huge at it is, is no longer the only big money pouring into the game, and that in global (vs America-only) terms, it is quite possible that the bully has now finally met its match, and that many of the very top golfers in the world have come to suspect -- and are willing to say -- that the emperor has no clothes. 

 

All of which is to suggest, to borrow a sometimes annoying term, that the PGAT is not only at a crossroads, but may in fact be facing its first ever 'existential threat'. 
 

 

 

 

The PGA Tour could get outspent and completely dismantled.  It's a shame that some golf fans have a spite level that would wish for the destruction of pro golf as we know it. 

 

I can empathize with the jealousy but at the same time realize that North America is where the most golf fans and advertising targets are, it's just the way it is and it's a model that has worked well for decades.  Many golfers have become wealthy because of the popularity of the PGA Tour, it's self sustaining and doesn't require a donor with bottomless pockets. 

 

With that said there is no way the tour can compete with unlimited money.  I'll enjoy golf while I can and hope the Liv benefactors tire of supplying money that will never see a return.  The interest in Liv isn't there and it won't be there, even if Liv has all the golfers they won't get the viewers.

 

If that is what happens it will be the end of professional golf as we know it. 

[PeterJP]

I don't know if you read spite or jealousy in my post, Bekgolf -- I don't have/feel either spite or jealously. I grew up watching and have long enjoyed the PGAT, for years even all the 'minor' tournaments with first time or journeyman winners. But if I imagine a non-North American perspective on what is essentially a North American -- and not global -- sports league, I see the PGAT much differently than I did in my youth, and can no longer equate it with "professional golf". Yes, it's been professional golf "as we know it" -- but 'as we know it' is only one way that the professional game can/might be known. 

 

Edited February 27 by PeterJP

[CCTxGolf]

On 2/26/2024 at 1:46 PM, bekgolf said:

 

Not so much in golf.  I don't see the golf fan following "influencers".

You must live under a rock. Golf YouTube is probably the biggest sport on the internet. Tons of people and groups of people thrive and make 7 and 8 figures annually.

 

They have golf manufacture, corporate, etc. sponsorships. 
 

I would say golf is the sport that is impacted the most my influencers and it’s not even close.

[bekgolf]

16 minutes ago, CCTxGolf said:

You must live under a rock. Golf YouTube is probably the biggest sport on the internet. Tons of people and groups of people thrive and make 7 and 8 figures annually.

 

They have golf manufacture, corporate, etc. sponsorships. 
 

I would say golf is the sport that is impacted the most my influencers and it’s not even close.

 

Are you influenced by them?  Would you purchase a product because they endorsed it?

[CCTxGolf]

17 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

Are you influenced by them?  Would you purchase a product because they endorsed it?

I’m not sure if I would necessarily purchase because they endorsed a product in the traditional sense but they certainly have influence over my purchases.

 

For example, Rhoback is a company that does very little mainstream advertising that has absolutely blown up. They do a massive amount of sponsorships in the YouTube world and I’m a big fan of their brand. Some others that are similar are Holderness and Bourne (spelling?), stitch golf, Stewart carts, Yeti, Smathers & Branson, La Maters, western birch, and the list goes on…. Most of these brands I was turned onto by YouTube or at least made more aware of by YouTube.

 

This doesn’t even speak to the actual golf gear (clubs, balls, bags, shoes, tees) that is reviewed and even just used by various personalities.

 

I guess after typing that all out the answer is YES. Yes I am influenced by them. And there’s some hot golf chicks too so that’s cool.

Edited February 28 by CCTxGolf

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, PeterJP said:

I don't know if you read spite or jealousy in my post, Bekgolf -- I don't have/feel either spite or jealously. I grew up watching and have long enjoyed the PGAT, for years even all the 'minor' tournaments with first time or journeyman winners. But if I imagine a non-North American perspective on what is essentially a North American -- and not global -- sports league, I see the PGAT much differently than I did in my youth, and can no longer equate it with "professional golf". Yes, it's been professional golf "as we know it" -- but 'as we know it' is only one way that the professional game can/might be known. 

 

 

I get that and it seems to be the new pro-LIV talking point. "Golf should be global!"

 

But there's two things about that:

 

1. Global golf may or may not actually be a winning business model. As I've mentioned many times, the issue with golf is that it's a long-duration sport. It's not a 2-hour F1 race. It's a multi-day slog. If you separate the golfers from the viewers by way of disparate time zones, you might not have a product. The PGAT is NA-centric, obviously. And the advantage of that is that the tournaments take place and are aired in the same time zone as the viewer's optimal watching window. If you create a "global tour" they might spend 2/3 of their season outside the optimal watching window of their fans (assuming the goal is Americas / Euro-Africa-ME / Asia coverage) and that might make it such that literally NOBODY in those areas tunes in because they're not going to watch a sport if they can only really engage with 1/3 of the schedule. 
2. Even if you think that golf SHOULD be a global game, people seem to complain that the PGA Tour isn't global. The PGA Tour is under no obligation to "help" a competing global tour get there. In fact, it's 100% at odds with their own interests to do so.  So while maybe it'll work, and maybe it won't, you can't sit there and act like the PGAT is some evil organization because they're not just rolling over and giving up what they've built over the past 50 years. This is a competition. They are competing.

 

I understand that our global friends are unhappy that golf is NA-centric, that DPWT is a second fiddle, and that every other tour is even farther away. Maybe a global tour will work. But understand that how we got here is NOT because someone was nefarious and built an NA-centric tour to the exclusion of everyone else. It just happens that the largest collected body of golfers (and therefore professional golf fans) worldwide are in the North American time zones, which also happens to be one of the most wealthy areas of the globe, and that means that not only was there fan interest but there were eyeballs that advertisers wanted to engage. 

 

If there's an appetite and business model for global golf, that will succeed. The PGA Tour can't stop it. I don't think it'll succeed, and that the PIF is just throwing good money after bad in an attempt to make fetch a thing. Stop. Fetch is never going to be a thing. 

[PeterJP]

Betar - good post, with many good points. I don't know if global golf will prove to be a winning business model; actually, at this point, I don't think it will be, or at least I can't imagine how it will be. But so much seems to be changing so fast that maybe the future of viable and sustainable professional golf will look so very different and be financed in so starkly different ways that even guessing about what a business model will look like is a dead-end, at this point. Yes, you're right that the PGAT can't be blamed for long defending its interests, and that it was simply a socio-economic reality that the NA professional game became and remains *the* professional game, world-wide. But I think it misguided to see the PGAT as some fixed and sacrosanct entity that came down from the mountaintop with Moses and the Ten Commandments -- it's a sports league, like the (now defunct) AFL-folded into NFL and the WHA-folded into the NHL and the ABA-folded into the NBA; and I mean, until it changed dramatically in the late 60s, driven by stars like Nicklaus and Palmer who were understandably seeking a bigger piece of the financial pie, the 'Tour' had a long and storied history as an arm of and was run by the Professional Golfers Association of America. I know Tiger doesn't see that change as analogous to this PIF-LIV one, but just to say simply that things do and have changed, and that more change seems both inevitable and likely to again be driven by the financial wants/expectations of the world's best golfers -- and of the 'organizational men' who are very well paid to structure and facilitate and manage those growing riches. In others words, my main point/thought is that from day one the rhetoric has been so heated and intense and personal and dogmatic that it has obscured the fact that, barring something totally unexpected, professional golf will indeed survive and, more than likely, remain centred in North America. 

[Titleist99]

46 minutes ago, PeterJP said:

Betar - good post, with many good points. I don't know if global golf will prove to be a winning business model; actually, at this point, I don't think it will be, or at least I can't imagine how it will be. But so much seems to be changing so fast that maybe the future of viable and sustainable professional golf will look so very different and be financed in so starkly different ways that even guessing about what a business model will look like is a dead-end, at this point. Yes, you're right that the PGAT can't be blamed for long defending its interests, and that it was simply a socio-economic reality that the NA professional game became and remains *the* professional game, world-wide. But I think it misguided to see the PGAT as some fixed and sacrosanct entity that came down from the mountaintop with Moses and the Ten Commandments -- it's a sports league, like the (now defunct) AFL-folded into NFL and the WHA-folded into the NHL and the ABA-folded into the NBA; and I mean, until it changed dramatically in the late 60s, driven by stars like Nicklaus and Palmer who were understandably seeking a bigger piece of the financial pie, the 'Tour' had a long and storied history as an arm of and was run by the Professional Golfers Association of America. I know Tiger doesn't see that change as analogous to this PIF-LIV one, but just to say simply that things do and have changed, and that more change seems both inevitable and likely to again be driven by the financial wants/expectations of the world's best golfers -- and of the 'organizational men' who are very well paid to structure and facilitate and manage those growing riches. In others words, my main point/thought is that from day one the rhetoric has been so heated and intense and personal and dogmatic that it has obscured the fact that, barring something totally unexpected, professional golf will indeed survive and, more than likely, remain centred in North America. 

 

In this case, it will not be the Players that make the difference in play, it will be the viewers. It will come down to 54-hole Team Golf vs 72-hole stroke play.  The golf viewing public actually plays the game of golf on any given weekend and stroke play has been the chosen method for years and a history has been built along the way.

 

Team golf has never been popular and there's a track record to prove that. So, if I were a betting man I'd put my money on the PGAT because they hold all the cards The PGAT doesn't need the other League, but the other league needs the PGAT to poach players.

 

If the tour contracted all its players and went full fledge (for profit) the other tour would be out of business in 3-5 years because they would have no way to cultivate talent.

 

Just one man's opinion.🙂

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I get that and it seems to be the new pro-LIV talking point. "Golf should be global!"

 

But there's two things about that:

 

1. Global golf may or may not actually be a winning business model. As I've mentioned many times, the issue with golf is that it's a long-duration sport. It's not a 2-hour F1 race. It's a multi-day slog. If you separate the golfers from the viewers by way of disparate time zones, you might not have a product. The PGAT is NA-centric, obviously. And the advantage of that is that the tournaments take place and are aired in the same time zone as the viewer's optimal watching window. If you create a "global tour" they might spend 2/3 of their season outside the optimal watching window of their fans (assuming the goal is Americas / Euro-Africa-ME / Asia coverage) and that might make it such that literally NOBODY in those areas tunes in because they're not going to watch a sport if they can only really engage with 1/3 of the schedule. 
2. Even if you think that golf SHOULD be a global game, people seem to complain that the PGA Tour isn't global. The PGA Tour is under no obligation to "help" a competing global tour get there. In fact, it's 100% at odds with their own interests to do so.  So while maybe it'll work, and maybe it won't, you can't sit there and act like the PGAT is some evil organization because they're not just rolling over and giving up what they've built over the past 50 years. This is a competition. They are competing.

 

I understand that our global friends are unhappy that golf is NA-centric, that DPWT is a second fiddle, and that every other tour is even farther away. Maybe a global tour will work. But understand that how we got here is NOT because someone was nefarious and built an NA-centric tour to the exclusion of everyone else. It just happens that the largest collected body of golfers (and therefore professional golf fans) worldwide are in the North American time zones, which also happens to be one of the most wealthy areas of the globe, and that means that not only was there fan interest but there were eyeballs that advertisers wanted to engage. 

 

If there's an appetite and business model for global golf, that will succeed. The PGA Tour can't stop it. I don't think it'll succeed, and that the PIF is just throwing good money after bad in an attempt to make fetch a thing. Stop. Fetch is never going to be a thing. 

How's that global thing working out for the DPW tour?

[tacklingdummy]

On 2/26/2024 at 7:24 PM, grm24 said:

Regardless of the source watched, the ratings for the that tour simply don't amount to anything regardless of the metrics used. Even when all the sources numbers are combined. The CW has a reach of 100% of the population in the USA. It's not difficult for anybody to find out when they are on the CW. Takes a few seconds at most. 

 

BTW you don't need any sort app to watch the CW on your tv. It's available OTA for literally the entire US population via satellite, cable, etc. Thought that they were on in the same time frame on The CW whether tape delayed or live when they have an event. Is that not the case?

 

As for the streaming audience again I'll repeat what you continunally want to over emphasize. If the streaming numbers were great Norman and his followers would loudly sing their praises from the mountain tops about them. The reason they aren't is that there are not good ratings to be promote. Streaming, OTA or anything else. Regardless of demographics. There is a reason they don't distribute their audience numbers anymore.

 

It also doesn't matter who they sign off the PGA Tour it's not improving ratings or getting big name big money sponsors flocking to them. They keep throwing good money after bad looking for some sort of miracle. The only thing keeping them going is ill advised hubris of it's management team and deep a pocketed benefactor in PIF. 

 

 

That is pure speculation that LIV is not disclosing the ratings because they are poor. LIV has been pretty quiet about anything they have been doing and who they are acquiring. 

 

 

 

 

 

[tacklingdummy]

16 hours ago, hunterdog said:

I’m curious how you determined the demographics of viewers of the tours. Is there a published study and by whom? Thanks

 

15 hours ago, bcjim said:

It's called "making s*** up"

 

"Younger Americans — defined in the report as 45 or younger — are more “familiar with LIV” than the overall population (40% to 35%). And of those familiar with the Saudi-funded circuit, a larger swath of those polled from the key 18-34 demographic said they planned to watch a LIV event (71%) than other adults (55%)."

 

It is pretty obvious that they are targeting a younger demographic with the music, more relaxed dress code, and atmosphere. However, polls have stated that LIV  drawing a younger demographic to the their tournaments. 

 

https://clubhouse.swingu.com/tour/liv-golf-viewership-harris-poll/

[tacklingdummy]

14 hours ago, Maine Golfer said:

My new proposal is have the Saudi's buy The Golf Channel.  

 

That would be one gigantic 180.  It would be interesting to see how the commentators change their positions on LIV. They have been extremely vocal about being against LIV. But then again, the PGA tour and Jay Monahan did a gigantic 180 when they said they were negotiating a deal with the PIF. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 28 by tacklingdummy

[bscinstnct]

9 hours ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

 

That is pure speculation that LIV is not disclosing the ratings because they are poor. LIV has been pretty quiet about anything they have been doing and who they are acquiring. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ya! It’s not like GN the type of guy who would be crowing from the rooftops if LIV got more than 63 viewers on the CW

 

 

 

 

🤣

Edited February 28 by bscinstnct

[naval2006]

9 hours ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

 

That is pure speculation that LIV is not disclosing the ratings because they are poor. LIV has been pretty quiet about anything they have been doing and who they are acquiring. 

 

 

 

 

 

LIV Golf is sports whitewashing so they don't care about ratings, investors and sponsors.  You also see that a lot in European football, the guys buying clubs and football stars to  win domestic leagues and European cups.  But in the case of golf this division has broken the field of top international players, which is detrimental to the game as a whole.  You have two tours with weaker fields, you can't see all the best players competing against each other and there's this ongoing battle for World Ranking points that leaves golf fans with half of the show most of the time.

[One Putter]

19 hours ago, ducky50 said:

I follow golf as much as the next person but I had no idea who Knapp is and several golfers on the leaderboard. I did know who Sami was because I follow the DP tour.  The PGA has a major issue if the big name players aren't in contention week after week no one will be watching.

People who post stuff like this clearly don't understand how this supposed to work.

[grm24]

11 hours ago, tacklingdummy said:

That is pure speculation that LIV is not disclosing the ratings because they are poor. LIV has been pretty quiet about anything they have been doing and who they are acquiring. 

 

[ahenderX]

19 hours ago, ducky50 said:

I follow golf as much as the next person but I had no idea who Knapp is and several golfers on the leaderboard. I did know who Sami was because I follow the DP tour.  The PGA has a major issue if the big name players aren't in contention week after week no one will be watching.

My weekly golfing partner has never heard of Anthony Kim. He’s 68 and has been playing golf for more than 30 years. I think it’s unreasonable for anyone to know or recognize the names of all golfers. As soon as I know someone is competing at the top for their first Tour win, I’m watching it. 

[grm24]

12 hours ago, tacklingdummy said:

That is pure speculation that LIV is not disclosing the ratings because they are poor.

It's fact. Not speculation. LIV gladly announced it's ratings right after they got the CW deal. Then once people, including LIV management, saw how poor they were they magically stopped reporting them. 

 

Just a clue here. You don't stop promoting your ratings if they are good. Everybody knows their ratings are awful. Just stop with their web stream must be where everyone is watching.

 

Simply put people aren't watching. Regardless of the delivery method. No matter the excuses or the spin. It's laughable and you know it. Enjoy your theories. I and others live in reality.

Edited February 28 by grm24

[ahenderX]

11 hours ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

 

"Younger Americans — defined in the report as 45 or younger — are more “familiar with LIV” than the overall population (40% to 35%). And of those familiar with the Saudi-funded circuit, a larger swath of those polled from the key 18-34 demographic said they planned to watch a LIV event (71%) than other adults (55%)."

 

It is pretty obvious that they are targeting a younger demographic with the music, more relaxed dress code, and atmosphere. However, polls have stated that LIV  drawing a younger demographic to the their tournaments. 

 

https://clubhouse.swingu.com/tour/liv-golf-viewership-harris-poll/

Watching a LIV event and continuing to watch a LIV event is what matters. There are a lot of programs/events I have watched once and have no plans to watch again. 

[jdl]

12 hours ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

 

That is pure speculation that LIV is not disclosing the ratings because they are poor. LIV has been pretty quiet about anything they have been doing and who they are acquiring. 

 

 

 

 

 

Golf, but quieter!

[TroyB123]

20 hours ago, notsohard said:

Andy Roberts twitter and website are just full on liv propaganda.   Mexico open was held in April last year, and had Finau and the newly crowned Masters champ dualling.  Obviously that was going to get better ratings than a Feb event in a bad scheduling slot.

[jimecherry]

35 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

Andy Roberts twitter and website are just full on liv propaganda.   Mexico open was held in April last year, and had Finau and the newly crowned Masters champ dualling.  Obviously that was going to get better ratings than a Feb event in a bad scheduling slot.

ok now explain the 3 weeks prior

[smashdn]

20 hours ago, Maine Golfer said:

Talor Gooch is like the guy who calls in sick on Monday all the time , doesn't keep up with his teams work and complains to anyone who will listen his 2 week PTO was denied 

 

 

What does he have to do with the PGAT?  Maybe keep it topical?